|
Kipory posted:Pratchett has said as much that Moist doesn't have the fangs for being a tyrant. He has said he does have the mind for being a hell of a politician, though. Well clearly the patrician is slowly turning A-M into something that is not a tyranny
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2009 04:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 16:38 |
|
|
Well, it´s supposed to be a ´one man, one vote´ democracy. With the Patrician as The Man who has The Vote, remember?  But I highly doubt that Ankh-Morpork could have a working democracy, even though a book about an attempt would be a good read.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2009 09:11
|
|
|
John Dough posted:But I highly doubt that Ankh-Morpork could have a working democracy, even though a book about an attempt would be a good read. Pratchett gets in a few good digs at modern democracy in Unseen Academicals in which it is mentioned in passing that Pseudopolis has recently become some sort of republic, which Vetinari (and most of Ankh-Morpork) finds hilarious.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2009 09:46
|
|
|
Regal posted:I really hope some of the future books are Moist books. He is such a great character. But unfortunately the next book is a Tiffany Aching book, right? I like Tiffany Aching books.  But yeah, Moist is the best new character since Vimes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2009 14:09
|
|
|
They had the Glorious Revolution, so maybe Pterry wants a blood(ier) one in the future. Lord Rust is still there, democracy springs up in Small Gods and Pyramids (Doesn't Djelybebi end up as one).
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2009 14:29
|
|
|
ibroxmassive posted:democracy springs up in Small Gods and Pyramids (Doesn't Djelybebi end up as one). Nope. Pteppic abdicates, leaving his half-sister Ptraci on the throne. Ephebe qualifies, but it's really more of an aristocracy than a democracy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 16, 2009 18:12
|
|
|
shadok posted:Nope. Pteppic abdicates, leaving his half-sister Ptraci on the throne. It's a classical democracy: rich/landowning/taxpaying male citizens can vote.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 00:00
|
|
|
John Dough posted:It's a classical democracy: rich/landowning/taxpaying male citizens can vote. Makes you wonder what Vetinari has planned for whatever happens to A-M after he sees the Reaper Man. I'd also thought that he was gearing it up for a modern republic, but he sneers at Pseudopolis in Unseen Academicals. The two most likely options in the event of his untimely death are: 1. Neutered Patrician with a powerful guild council. 2. Patrician with a powerful aristocracy. 3. King Carrot the First. #1 and #2 are the options the bad guys favor in the Watch books. #3 would drive Vimes spare.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 00:10
|
|
|
Well, it's hardly a Watch book without Vimes Going Spare on someone.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 00:38
|
|
|
Vetinari is so obsessed with the city that he'd probably end up being a zombie if he died without making preparations beforehand.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 01:38
|
|
|
Biplane posted:Well clearly the patrician is slowly turning A-M into something that is not a tyranny To be fair, Vetinari only turns to being a tyrant when he absolutely has to. He's content to let things run themselves when it's good for the city. He's a very benevolent dictator and I'm sure he'd like whatever follows him to be along the same lines.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 03:05
|
|
|
King Carrot gets crowned and runs off, with Moist becoming Regent in his stead?
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 05:26
|
|
|
Mokinokaro posted:To be fair, Vetinari only turns to being a tyrant when he absolutely has to. He's content to let things run themselves when it's good for the city. Well, unless you're a mime.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 07:16
|
|
|
John Dough posted:Well, unless you're a mime. Like he said, for the good of the city.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 09:47
|
|
|
Copernic posted:Makes you wonder what Vetinari has planned for whatever happens to A-M after he sees the Reaper Man. He could let Lady Margolotta have a go at his neck and just stay in office for a few millenia.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 11:30
|
|
|
GhostDog posted:He could let Lady Margolotta have a go at his neck and just stay in office for a few millenia. Vimes'd go spare.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 17:53
|
|
|
inklesspen posted:Vimes'd go spare. It's astounding how much power that phrase has in Ankh-Morpork.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 18:00
|
|
|
YggiDee posted:It's astounding how much power that phrase has in Ankh-Morpork. The Old Sam was one of my favouritest things in UA. Also, while the Chair of Indefinite Studies, the Lecturer in Recent Runes and the Senior Wrangler are all essentially the same character a la Solario and Solanio from the Merchant of Venice (with the minor exception of whichever one of them has a soft spot for Mrs Whitlow), the loss of the Dean from the Faculty cast hit me hard. At least this meant Dr Hix got more room to grow. Coulda done with more Rincewind though. Coulda always done with more Rincewind.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 18:14
|
|
|
GhostDog posted:He could let Lady Margolotta have a go at his neck and just stay in office for a few millenia. I always assumed Vimes would be the next patrician, for some reason.
|
|
#
?
Nov 17, 2009 23:39
|
|
|
The theory I like is that Vetinari's setting it up so that, because of the way he's set up key figures like Vimes and Carrot and Ridcully and Moist and William deWorde, it doesn't actually matter who replaces him. They'd never be able to undo all the progress because there's enough people who know what the right thing to do is.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 00:57
|
|
|
Paul.Power posted:The theory I like is that Vetinari's setting it up so that, because of the way he's set up key figures like Vimes and Carrot and Ridcully and Moist and William deWorde, it doesn't actually matter who replaces him. They'd never be able to undo all the progress because there's enough people who know what the right thing to do is. There's also the very real possibility that Pratchett (and by extension Vetinari) doesn't actually concern himself that much with such an overarching plot, especially since Vetinari really only became a major character through the watch books. But after Moist it does kinda seem like he's preparing people for different public/civil offices. I don't really know if I want to see a book about Vetinari leaving one way or another. Although it would certainly be interesting.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 01:14
|
|
|
Nilbop posted:The Old Sam was one of my favouritest things in UA. Not enough Bursar.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 04:19
|
|
|
It's also possible that Vetinari is preparing the City to not need a single ruler.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 04:32
|
|
|
Moggity posted:I always assumed Vimes would be the next patrician, for some reason. Vimes and Vetinari are about the same age.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 08:49
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:It's also possible that Vetinari is preparing the City to not need a single ruler. I tend to take the position that Vetinari is definitely 'grooming' Moist for eventual leadership (or at least ever more significant roles in the governance of city affairs), as Moist exemplifies many of the skills that the city needs from its leaders (the ability to deceive and manipulate people either without them realising, or inducing them to accept this manipulation in good humour) with the *added* bonus that Moist may be a genuinely popular figure, whereas Vetinari is mostly tolerated or feared (albeit respected as well). Vetinari, being a genuinely dedicated servant of the city, would absolutely make sure he was replaced at the right time, by the right person, if it were good for the city. It really does feel like a 'new age' is dawning for the city[1]; its various institutions are becoming more influential not just inside the city limits, but beyond as well. The Watch is respected and copied by other communities. The Post Office will continue to extend its reach. 'The City' (through Vetinari, or his representatives) has been taking a more explicitly clear role in the affairs of other cities and nations. And much more besides. While I won't go so far as to claim Pratchett has an 'arc' planned out for the city, I don't think anyone could credibly deny that he's been developing the city at least as strongly as his core characters. [1] Seriously. AM is such a key feature in recent books, and Pratchett has been pretty consistent in the way that things are developing. Stuff that happens in one book remain also in following books.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 09:56
|
|
|
It's the 'Industrial Revolution' arc, watching Ankh Morpork as a character grow up.
|
|
#
?
Nov 18, 2009 10:47
|
|
|
Really, I think Vetinari's plan for the future of the city post-himself is based on three things at this point: a) Having the various public institutions and departments internally capable of continuing on despite bad leaders possibly coming into play, which is what he's got Moist up to. b) Having a Watch strong enough and confident enough that they will shut down any future leader who tries to overstep his bounds and go crazy, which is what I think he's realised is a fantastic if unintended part of Vimes' legacy in the Watch c) Set up the city economically so that peace is more profitable than war and all the guilds know it and will put pressure on the leadership to keep things that way - it's been like that for a while. Between them, he's reduced any future city leadership not as ingenious as himself to being, probably, ineffectual political power players at worst who think they're very important but will likely end up paying no attention to the real city as it smoothly ticks by underneath them, and with no opportunity to go truly mad and do terrible things like past patricians. And with that set up, it really doesn't matter that much just what government follows. But yeah, there's a fair chance I'm thinking this through more than Pratchett has.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2009 11:20
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:But yeah, there's a fair chance I'm thinking this through more than Pratchett has. You haven't, the City is slowly becoming a homage to the current Constitutional Democracy practised in the UK, where the Queen has quite a lot of power but doesn't use it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2009 14:26
|
|
|
magimix posted:I tend to take the position that Vetinari is definitely 'grooming' Moist for eventual leadership (or at least ever more significant roles in the governance of city affairs), as Moist exemplifies many of the skills that the city needs from its leaders (the ability to deceive and manipulate people either without them realising, or inducing them to accept this manipulation in good humour) with the *added* bonus that Moist may be a genuinely popular figure, whereas Vetinari is mostly tolerated or feared (albeit respected as well). I'm reasonably certain that Pratchett himself has denied that Vetinari is grooming Moist for the Patricianship, but I cannot find a citation for that.
|
|
#
?
Nov 19, 2009 19:05
|
|
|
ibroxmassive posted:You haven't, the City is slowly becoming a homage to the current Constitutional Democracy practised in the UK, where the Queen has quite a lot of power but doesn't use it. Except for the (on Discworld, laughable) Democracy part. Or the constitutional part. It's becoming more of an homage to the Civil Service than anything else, really.
|
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2009 05:23
|
|
|
ibroxmassive posted:You haven't, the City is slowly becoming a homage to the current Constitutional Democracy practised in the UK, where the Queen has quite a lot of power but doesn't use it. If push really came to shove and he really wanted to, I bet Carrot could usurp Vetinari and take all the power for himself, so it is kind of like that. I think they should do more with Carrot's character, it would be interesting to see how he would deal with someone like Carcer (from Night Watch). If you really wanted to gently caress up Ankh-Morpork and throw it into chaos, you wouldn't kill Vetinari, you would kill Harry King. Now that would make the city unlivable after only a few days. Konstantin fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Nov 20, 2009 |
|
#
?
Nov 20, 2009 06:08
|
|
|
I'm getting the feeling that Ankh-Morpork is taking on a steadily more anarchist feel, but that could just be me.
|
|
#
?
Nov 21, 2009 00:47
|
|
|
Konstantin posted:If push really came to shove and he really wanted to, I bet Carrot could usurp Vetinari and take all the power for himself, so it is kind of like that. I think they should do more with Carrot's character, it would be interesting to see how he would deal with someone like Carcer (from Night Watch). If you really wanted to gently caress up Ankh-Morpork and throw it into chaos, you wouldn't kill Vetinari, you would kill Harry King. Now that would make the city unlivable after only a few days. Well, the thing is Carrot does not want to be in charge. He's perfectly happy being a Sammie. I could see him taking over if Vetinari up and died and really didn't have a plan in place, but he doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who wants to be in charge. As for Carcer, he'd do exactly what Vimes would do. Have a fair trial, shortly afterwards there would be an execution. They demonstrated that when Carrot killed the character who had the Gonne, he just killed him quick to stop him from killing more people. If he thought he could capture and fairly try someone he would.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2009 02:14
|
|
|
The part of that scene where Vimes has an argument with himself is pretty amazing.
|
|
#
?
Nov 28, 2009 19:00
|
|
|
I just finished UA, and I'm fairly sure I missed the Death cameo. Can someone point me in the right direction? Also I didn't get why Andy "will never have to pay for a drink again" after Pepe slices him up at the end.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2009 15:11
|
|
|
Sanford posted:I just finished UA, and I'm fairly sure I missed the Death cameo. Can someone point me in the right direction? It was when Nutt was in the hospital, after being "killed".
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2009 15:13
|
|
|
Sanford posted:Also I didn't get why Andy "will never have to pay for a drink again" after Pepe slices him up at the end. Cos he'll look like a double-hard bastard with that huge scar across his face.
|
|
#
?
Nov 29, 2009 15:49
|
|
|
I'm currently more than half way through my quest to read all of discworld. I'm going to be sad when I've finished. I just finished reading The Last Continent and am more than halfway through The Last Hero. I've seen a lot of Last Continent hate in this thread (not to say hate, I suppose, since everybody loves all terry's works, but more lukewarm love). To some point I do agree that it's largely one big Australia joke, but the side plot of the the UU faculty on that island was awesome. On the other hand, I have to say that Interesting Times was Rincewind at his best. I also have to say that the ending of that book (setting up for The Last Continent) was the funniest thing I've read in Discworld so far. I love how the joke is presented. He doesn't explain what the stick is, he doesn't explain why Rincewind gets cut off. You just get it, and it's hilarious. Amazing. This part: Interesting Pants posted:He gripped the stick and flung it away from him with all the force he could still muster. A lot of authors have trouble with conveying a joke (especially a slapstick physical one like above) without directly stating what's going on. I respect Terry all the more since he knew he didn't have to say boomerang for his readers to get the joke. What a perfect way to end a book.
|
|
#
?
Nov 30, 2009 23:05
|
|
|
Okay, if we're asking for cameos in Unseen Academicals, I didn't spot Mr Shine. Where did we see him?
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2009 20:05
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 16:38 |
|
|
BatteredFeltFedora posted:Okay, if we're asking for cameos in Unseen Academicals, I didn't spot Mr Shine. Where did we see him? Nutt says that when he was living with Lady Margolotta he would sneak around the castle in the hidden passages and at one point he mentions seeing a troll made of diamond come visit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 11, 2009 20:35
|
|
