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Z3n
Jul 21, 2007

I think the point is Z3n is a space cowboy on the edge of a frontier unknown to man, he's out there pushing the limits, trail braking into the abyss. Finding out where the edge of the razor is, turning to face the darkness and revving his 690 into it's vast gaze. You gotta live this to learn it bro.

Goob posted:

You could always try McMaster Carr. I've used their taps before and they've been good, although it was a few years ago.

Alright, I'm sort of partial to ordering good tools, so I'll suck it up and pay for the decent stuff.

sharkytm posted:

By hardware store, I meant "Vermont American" because most hardware stores carry their tap/dies.

If you are ordering online, SJ Discount tools has good prices on the kits (tap, install tools, and helicoils) and on helicoils alone: http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/manufacturers-helicoil.html

^^^ McMaster's prices leave a lot to be desired, but their shipping is dirt cheap, fast, and they have EVERYTHING on earth (usually in stock too).


This is the kit I have. Its OK. Not great, not bad, just OK.
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/ver21729.html
I didn't pay that, but I got it at a garage sale. It was missing a few taps, so I replaced them from other places.

Thanks for the info. I need to go look at what sizes I need exactly, and then I'll order from them. I also need to pick up some well nuts.

What's the best/easiest way to measure bolts? I've never really had to deal with this before, thanks to always using OEM stuff, but honestly, getting reamed for 10-20x the cost of a bolt because you're getting it from a motorcycle dealership gets really old.


As a graduation gift, a bunch of my friends got together and bought me a big craftsman set. I've had no problems with it so far, and I've been supplementing it with other tools as I've needed them. Thankfully, there's not that many tools that you need to work on motorcycles. :) The biggest ratchet occasionally jumps out under load, but if it were a big deal I'd just go get a new one.

I still lust after my friend's snap on stuff though. I hate working in most other people's garages though, as knowing where everything is and having the right tools is everything...

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sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo


Fallen Rib

grover posted:

We just unwrapped a brand new 1/2" craftsman ratchet last week, and the loving thing was broken out of the box. I've seen them break before, but never broken out of the box. Their quality control has absolutely gone to poo poo, but they're still priced like it's a premium brand. At least the generics are priced like generics.

Craftsman tools have really fallen in quality the past 5 years or so. I've given up on replacing any Cman ratchets I break, and instead just buy S-K or Cornwell/Mac/Matco. S-O is too expensive for me.

For cheap (boat tools) ratchets, I use HF. They last about a year, then seize up. By then, the sockets are junk from rust, and some are missing. I just go spend $20 and get a new set.

Uthor posted:

Their prices are great when your mom works there and gets everything at cost! I should really utilize them for tools in addition to random nuts and bolts and parts.
Lucky you, my mom's a teacher. So I get education for free, just like everyone else in the US.

oxbrain posted:

They won't sell you a crap brand, their customer service is amazing, and they have an unbelievable return policy too.

Buy quality or buy twice. McMaster Carr is the quality where HF is the twice.

edit: Open an account with grainger and get a loving phone book size catalog every couple months. Good for use as a door stop, or to bludgeon any employee who doesn't know how to use the internet.
All I was saying was that similar quality taps can be had for less. I :love: McMaster, don't get me wrong.

Grainger is a good resource too, but I've found their customer service to be a little lacking sometimes.

Kynetx posted:

Hey mister crabby-pants... Needle-nose pliers work for retrieving taps that are flush or below the surface just fine. The reason I said "needle-nose" is because you can jam the tips of the jaws into the channels of the tap and use them as an ad-hoc spanner. I've rescued a couple this way quite a few times.

You must have much better luck that I do... Every time I've tried that, I end up with a tap AND broken pliers, and more of a mess. When a tap breaks, its usually because it seizes in place. Then again, I'm most often tapping stainless and aluminum. SS Galls, and aluminum gums up the threads of the tap, jamming it.

scapulataf
Jul 18, 2007

by Ozmaugh
Haven't you guys ever heard of a tap extractor?
For example:
http://www.waltontools.com/products/extractr.htm

also:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22tap+extractor%22&meta=&aq=f&oq=

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

Z3n posted:

What's the best/easiest way to measure bolts? I've never really had to deal with this before, thanks to always using OEM stuff, but honestly, getting reamed for 10-20x the cost of a bolt because you're getting it from a motorcycle dealership gets really old.
A cheap digital calliper and a small pitch comparator gauge to double-check the thread with.

AnomalousBoners
Dec 22, 2007

by Ozma
I'm partial to MSC over grainger because grainger's prices suck in general. The search on their website is also bad. Both catalogs have lots of good info about tool selection too, you can learn a lot about tools you didnt know about by reading them.

AnomalousBoners
Dec 22, 2007

by Ozma

Z3n posted:

What's the best/easiest way to measure bolts? I've never really had to deal with this before, thanks to always using OEM stuff, but honestly, getting reamed for 10-20x the cost of a bolt because you're getting it from a motorcycle dealership gets really old.

Most accurate? Pitch gauge and caliper like said above, you can save some time by using a card that has all the bolt diameters on it with a pitch gage. Almost all fasteners on a car made in the 90s or late will be metric. Also learn bolt grades because hardware store bolts are often grade 2 or 5 and are not appropriate replacements for grade 8 or 8.8 bolts that youll find in most applications.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

RealKyleH posted:

Also learn bolt grades because hardware store bolts are often grade 2 or 5 and are not appropriate replacements for grade 8 or 8.8 bolts that youll find in most applications.
I don't know if you meant to give that impression, but an 8.8 is not equivalent to a grade 8, it's more like a grade 5. Grade 8 is equivalent to 10.9.

If you want a good general guide to fasteners, Carroll Smith's Nuts, bolts, fasteners and plumbing handbook is very good.

sharkytm
Oct 9, 2003

Ba

By

Sharkytm doot doo do doot do doo


Fallen Rib

scapulataf posted:

Haven't you guys ever heard of a tap extractor?
For example:
http://www.waltontools.com/products/extractr.htm

also:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=%22tap+extractor%22&meta=&aq=f&oq=

Holy gently caress, how have I not known about this until now?

And yes, I forgot about MSC. Another doorstop catalog, and excellent prices.

Skyssx
Feb 2, 2001

by T. Fine

InitialDave posted:

I don't know if you meant to give that impression, but an 8.8 is not equivalent to a grade 8, it's more like a grade 5. Grade 8 is equivalent to 10.9.

EYE. OPENING.

Thanks for the info.

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD
I, too was unaware of this. The more you know...

AnomalousBoners
Dec 22, 2007

by Ozma

InitialDave posted:

I don't know if you meant to give that impression, but an 8.8 is not equivalent to a grade 8, it's more like a grade 5. Grade 8 is equivalent to 10.9.

If you want a good general guide to fasteners, Carroll Smith's Nuts, bolts, fasteners and plumbing handbook is very good.

I did not, I was just saying I usually see grade 8 or grade 8.8 on engines/stuff I work on and that lower grade bolts were a bad idea.

Z3n
Jul 21, 2007

I think the point is Z3n is a space cowboy on the edge of a frontier unknown to man, he's out there pushing the limits, trail braking into the abyss. Finding out where the edge of the razor is, turning to face the darkness and revving his 690 into it's vast gaze. You gotta live this to learn it bro.

InitialDave posted:

I don't know if you meant to give that impression, but an 8.8 is not equivalent to a grade 8, it's more like a grade 5. Grade 8 is equivalent to 10.9.

If you want a good general guide to fasteners, Carroll Smith's Nuts, bolts, fasteners and plumbing handbook is very good.

It's because 8.8 is imperial and 8 is metric, correct? I always see the grade 8 markings on japanese motorcycles.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

RealKyleH posted:

I did not, I was just saying I usually see grade 8 or grade 8.8 on engines/stuff I work on and that lower grade bolts were a bad idea.
Yeah, that's what I thought you meant, but it was a little ambiguous.

Z3n posted:

It's because 8.8 is imperial and 8 is metric, correct? I always see the grade 8 markings on japanese motorcycles.
Other way round. "Grade 5" or "Grade 8" markings are more likely to be seen on imperial-thread fasteners, and the "8.8", "10.9" or "12.9" markings on metric-thread fasteners.

You could technically use them the other way round, but it'd be a bit dodgy, because everyone associates them with imperial and metric fasteners respectively.

Personally, I think the metric system is better, for several reasons. First, it gives you real values - the first number is the ultimate tensile strength in units of 100 MPa, the second number being the yield strength of the fastener as a proportion of this UTS. So a 10.9 is 1000 MPa UTS, and has a yield strength of .9x1000 = 900 MPa. 1 MPa = 145 PSI.

Secondly, the range of "standard" grades is better. The SAE imperial grades stop at 8 (~10.9), whereas with the metric system you can have 12.9, 14.9 and so on.

Lastly, the system of rating by MPa rather than a "grade" is how bolts are specified when making specialist or custom applications - in these instances, imperial stuff will be rated in KSI (which, logically, is 1000xPSI), though metrification of the world in general means the specs often call out MPa also.

It gets more complicated the more specialised you go with the intended use, and you start seeing callouts for nominal "cold" strength, plus a minimum strength level at combustion temperatures for things like turbine applications.

Aside from the fairly logical sizing of threads for overall diameter and pitch, here's also the whole business of the precise dimensions and classes of threads, but that's really not something you should have to worry about for day-to-day stuff.

Big K of Justice
Nov 27, 2005

Anyone seen my ball joints?
Then you bump into things like Class's for the corresponding nuts/locknuts.I had to rebuild a humvee frame using cadmium plated bolts which can be.. uh hard to come by locally. The bolts were all grade 8, but the locknuts were class 10, which was equivalent to grade 8. I wound up using what ever meets ASTM and MIL certification for bigger trucks.

I got a fair case of sticker shock, buying the proper bolts, locknuts and washers for a big frame job ran me several hundred dollars and it was about 90 lbs in 2 boxes from mcmaster carr.

For anyone that wants to use the "proper" bolts on their project, I suggest checking for a local mcmaster depot or a fastenal location. The only down side is you may only need 4 specific bolts for something but you'll have to buy a pack of 25.

I went to Ace hardware once to get black trim screws, they were marked black phosphate which was rust resistant, only for them to completely turn brown and rotten within a week, turns out they were actually black oxide coated :doh: :argh:

Big K of Justice fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Feb 4, 2010

AnomalousBoners
Dec 22, 2007

by Ozma
Wow didnt know all that about bolts. Thanks

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD

BigKOfJustice posted:

For anyone that wants to use the "proper" bolts on their project, I suggest checking for a local mcmaster depot or a fastenal location. The only down side is you may only need 4 specific bolts for something but you'll have to buy a pack of 25.

On one occasion I needed something specific (and non-standard for my car because we drilled and tapped some holes), qty. 3. The guy at the counter just let me have 3 of what I needed. making friends with the fastenal guy is important for sure.

Uthor
Jul 9, 2006

Gummy Bear Heaven ... It's where I go when the world is too mean.

sharkytm posted:

Lucky you, my mom's a teacher. So I get education for free, just like everyone else in the US.

McMaster also has a great college scholarship program for children of workers, so I got close to a free education, too.

PBCrunch
Jun 17, 2002

Lawrence Phillips Always #1 to Me
I have gone to the local Fastenal a few times. If the young guy is working he will sell me individual nuts and bolts. The older guy makes be buy whole bags though.

scapulataf
Jul 18, 2007

by Ozmaugh

ab0z posted:

On one occasion I needed something specific (and non-standard for my car because we drilled and tapped some holes), qty. 3. The guy at the counter just let me have 3 of what I needed. making friends with the fastenal guy is important for sure.

Aye. At my local fastenal, we used to be able to buy one or two, a half dozen etc. But now they say "you can only buy a few if you want, but its gonna cost you 10 bucks to open the bag".

Z3n
Jul 21, 2007

I think the point is Z3n is a space cowboy on the edge of a frontier unknown to man, he's out there pushing the limits, trail braking into the abyss. Finding out where the edge of the razor is, turning to face the darkness and revving his 690 into it's vast gaze. You gotta live this to learn it bro.

Uthor posted:

McMaster also has a great college scholarship program for children of workers, so I got close to a free education, too.

That's pretty awesome. I'll order from them to support that :)

PBCrunch posted:

I have gone to the local Fastenal a few times. If the young guy is working he will sell me individual nuts and bolts. The older guy makes be buy whole bags though.

Maybe I'm just continually stuck with project-itis, but I don't have a problem buying 25 or even 100 bolts at a time. I always need more of the drat things.

Sex Weirdo
Jul 24, 2007

I just want to let people know that True Value sometimes has very cheap tools in their clearance bins. It usually contains sockets at my local store, and I have no idea if any other stores even do this.

These sockets were in a bin marked $1 each:



This is definitely a ymmv situation, but it might be worth a look if you need some big rear end sockets for cheap.

There were many more smaller sockets in the bin and I'm thinking about going back for more.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001

Toilet Rascal
Holy crap I'm stopping at True Value this week. My wife works next door to one.

Skyssx
Feb 2, 2001

by T. Fine
That 36mm will take off the axle nut on a N-body.

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD
Why can't everyone just pick a freaking size for axle nuts?
I have 5 different sizes of axle nut sockets now and only 1 of them is for one of MY cars. These things are not cheap. (ok $10 or so each but it adds up).

$1 for a 36mm axle nut socket is a great deal even if you don't specifically need it.

Skyssx
Feb 2, 2001

by T. Fine
Just "rent" one from AZ if you don't have it and you don't own the car in question.

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD

Skyssx posted:

Just "rent" one from AZ if you don't have it and you don't own the car in question.

I've done this on occasion but my policy is to buy the tool the first time I need it and then I'll just conveniently have it next time. This only makes sense for me because there is literally never not a car apart in my garage, and it's a different one ever 2 weeks or so. tools are never put away for more than 24hrs.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.

ab0z posted:

my policy is to buy the tool the first time I need it and then I'll just conveniently have it next time.
The wisdom in this statement can't be overlooked!

Whenever you undertake any job, automotive or not, purchasing necessary tooling has to be calculated in the cost. To do good work, you need the right tools. Besides... think about all the money you save on labor.

Many times when doing "favors" for friends that may require a tool I don't have, unless it's something very expensive, I will have the person buy the tool, and keep it for myself as a Thank You gift for my services.

Mooecow
Aug 2, 2005

Aceshighxxx posted:

I just want to let people know that True Value sometimes has very cheap tools in their clearance bins. It usually contains sockets at my local store, and I have no idea if any other stores even do this.

These sockets were in a bin marked $1 each:

<snip>

This is definitely a ymmv situation, but it might be worth a look if you need some big rear end sockets for cheap.

There were many more smaller sockets in the bin and I'm thinking about going back for more.

You really got a good deal there. The 36mm, for example, costs the store ~$3.50


CornHolio posted:

Holy crap I'm stopping at True Value this week. My wife works next door to one.

Keep in mind that True Value stores are independently owned and operated. Unless the store is owned by the same person, they probably won't have the same specials/clearance sales.

Mooecow fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Feb 5, 2010

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD

dv6speed posted:


Many times when doing "favors" for friends that may require a tool I don't have, unless it's something very expensive, I will have the person buy the tool, and keep it for myself as a Thank You gift for my services.

This is how I started building my tool collection. If I'm going to work on your car, I need to have service literature and correct tools. If I don't have one or more of those things, guess who's buying it? I'll give you a hint, it's not me. Labor pricing is case of beer times how much of a bitch I think the job will be.

frozenphil
Mar 13, 2003

YOU CANNOT MAKE A MISTAKE SO BIG THAT 80 GRIT CAN'T FIX IT!
:smug:

ab0z posted:

This is how I started building my tool collection. If I'm going to work on your car, I need to have service literature and correct tools. If I don't have one or more of those things, guess who's buying it? I'll give you a hint, it's not me. Labor pricing is case of beer times how much of a bitch I think the job will be.

I paid two fifths of some cheap Canadian whiskey to get my car primered. Ended up doing a lot of it myself as my "help" was hammered on liquor and paint fumes.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001

Toilet Rascal

Mooecow posted:

Keep in mind that True Value stores are independently owned and operated. Unless the store is owned by the same person, they probably won't have the same specials/clearance sales.

Yeah they didn't have poo poo. :(

I really need to go to Harbor Freight this weekend, they always have cheap poo poo sitting out front. And I have $60 worth of gift cards.

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD
There's an alignment machine on the local CL for $500, "needs to be calibrated". Sooo tempted...
If I got that and some tire mounting and balancing gear, I'd be entirely self sufficient in the garage.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!
Tell me if we should buy this:
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay...51&cmRelshp=sim

as a floor model with a crack in the plastic housing for $50. Apparently, it was $300 to start, and would be $100 to a non-employee. Obviously, if the crack appears to impair function, the deal is off; otherwise, JB Weld to the rescue.

Uses would be air ratchets and small grinders (mostly cleaning rust, not cutting), and buffers. Painting if the thing could actually handle it.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Self sufficient, gently caress, I think goons would pay you to use it. Alignments and tire mounting / balancing are the only jobs I absolutely have to pay someone to do.

oxbrain
Aug 18, 2005

Put a glide in your stride and a dip in your hip and come on up to the mothership.

Splizwarf posted:

Tell me if we should buy this:

quote:

oil-free pump

Option 1: No.

Option 2: Buy it, sell it on craigslist for $100-150, use that money to buy a better compressor.

AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.

ab0z posted:

There's an alignment machine on the local CL for $500, "needs to be calibrated". Sooo tempted...
If I got that and some tire mounting and balancing gear, I'd be entirely self sufficient in the garage.
You forgot a lathe for turning brake drums and rotors, or do you already have that?

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

oxbrain posted:

Option 1: No.

Option 2: Buy it, sell it on craigslist for $100-150, use that money to buy a better compressor.

I'm half relieved, half disappointed. Thanks.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

ab0z posted:

There's an alignment machine on the local CL for $500, "needs to be calibrated".
So you need to align your alignment machine? Insert Xzibit gag here...

ab0z
Jun 28, 2008

by angerbotSD

dv6speed posted:

You forgot a lathe for turning brake drums and rotors, or do you already have that?

There's one of those up for sale too...

InitialDave posted:

So you need to align your alignment machine? Insert Xzibit gag here...

Sup dawg, I heard you liked precision...

Nah I'm not getting the alignment machine. It would pay for itself fairly quickly, but I have no idea where you get something like that calibrated, and no good way to transport it. Plus I already have firestone's lifetime alignment on the cars I know I'm keeping for a while. Brake rotors and drums are cheap enough that I can't see paying off that lathe anytime soon.
I assume it's possible to turn rotors on a normal lathe in some way?

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AbsentMindedWelder
Mar 26, 2003

It must be the fumes.

ab0z posted:

I assume it's possible to turn rotors on a normal lathe in some way?

If you can fit the rotor/drum on the lathe, it'll turn it. You'll just need various faceplates and stuff to adapt the rotors to the spindle. You wouldn't use a chuck for that.

Since it does involve machining a large diameter piece of cast iron, you'll want the baddest, biggest, beefiest lathe you can get to cut down on chatter. If you are very ambitious, you can always build your own (Using old engine blocks as the main building component): http://opensourcemachine.org

AbsentMindedWelder fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Feb 5, 2010

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