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They definitely could have done something huge.
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Feb 25, 2010 22:23
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Lamuella posted:this thread just reminds me of the astounding waste of potential that was the Invasion. The whole thing felt doomed from the start after they began with Booker T defending the heavyweight title against Buff Bagwell of all people. Didn't they also do WCW Raw in Seattle, when they could have saved it for like a week and had it be in Atlanta (aka Turnerland)? Given the gratuitous egos involved, I don't think it ever had a chance to be anything but disappointing.
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Feb 25, 2010 22:24
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Lamuella posted:Does anyone think that WWF owning WCW could have worked out better (for example if they'd had them as genuinely their own promotion rather than the weak bad guys led by the McMahon kids), or was there never any real chance of it not sucking? Personally, I believe Vince would have put a lot more time into it had he not been doing the XFL. One of the biggest issues with the acquisition of WCW was that Vince couldn't get Viacom to let him have another TV show or re-brand any of the current WWF shows into a WCW program. Much like Bischoff, Vince felt that WCW was dead in the water without television. Another big problem was that most of the valuable guys the WWE acquired who wasn't sitting on a contract like DDP and Booker T did not want to be in WCW anymore. They wanted to be in the WWF. Had Vince kept the two products completely separate, did not put money into XFL and spent it instead on Flair/Goldberg/nWo from the start and Viacom allowed a WCW show to have the weekend, it would have had the potential to be a huge success in my estimation.
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Feb 25, 2010 22:26
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Lamuella posted:this thread just reminds me of the astounding waste of potential that was the Invasion. The whole thing felt doomed from the start after they began with Booker T defending the heavyweight title against Buff Bagwell of all people. Treating WCW as its own promotion would have had the same problem as if they tried to treat ECW as their own- no matter how much they tried to, they could never cover up the fact that it was no under Vince's umbrella. The invasion did need a lot less WWE guys mixed up in it. The survivor series match that was the blow off to the whole thing had something like 3/5 guys on the Invasion team were WWE stars and 2/5 of the WWE guys were former WCW stars. It was a mess.
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Feb 25, 2010 22:29
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Lamuella posted:
Here's how you start the Invasion: Pay Sting and have him watching from the rafters.
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Feb 25, 2010 22:35
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The biggest problem with making WCW a brand was the timeslot of 11 PM on Saturdays was going to be really limiting. So even if it did happen, no WWF draw was going to want to be in WCW because it would really hurt their pay, their money from live gates and PPV would go way down even if WCW was doing some house shows and PPVs early on. So if you were a WWF guy you had every reason to be against it because you might end up there! With the Invasion itself, yeah it could have gone better. Vince probably should have seen what other people saw and bitten the bullet signing expensive talent early. One of the most striking things about the March 2001 Observer Lives is the prediction that guys like Nash, Hogan, Flair, Goldberg etc would sit out about a year and then when Vince needed something new to spike ratings and buyrates they would be WAY more valuable then than they were at the moment, and would have been getting their sweet WCW money in the mean time. Signing Nash and Hogan would have been meaningless in the Invasion compared to bringing them in later for shorter term roles, but Flair as the WCW mouth piece and Goldberg as the center piece would have been pretty big.
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Feb 25, 2010 22:37
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They messed up the Invasion from the get-go, having the big initial confrontation be between Vince and Shane. How lame is that? People want to see WWF vs WCW, not WWF vs WWF. Of course all this is a dead horse by now, but I still can't help but say it.
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Feb 25, 2010 23:08
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Curtis of Nigeria posted:Here's how you start the Invasion: Pay Sting and have him watching from the rafters. I'm pretty sure that Sting has said that even if the paycheck was huge, he never wants to work for Vince.
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Feb 25, 2010 23:16
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Timby posted:I'm pretty sure that Sting has said that even if the paycheck was huge, he never wants to work for Vince. It's one of his unique aspects as a wrestler, being a mainstream guy who never worked for Vince. But having him show up at the start of the Invasion would've changed the whole game around. And he can say that he would never do it regardless of paycheck. But remember the wise words of the Million Dollar Man Ted DiBiase. Everybody's got a price. That includes Sting.
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Feb 25, 2010 23:24
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Timby posted:I'm pretty sure that Sting has said that even if the paycheck was huge, he never wants to work for Vince. I'm sure he mostly meant it when he said it and he probably still means it now (being involved in TNA means he doesnt have to make that decision, hes still working), but... If Vince had REALLY wanted him, I'm sure he could have got him. There have been more than a few wrestlers who would have said similar in the past and ended up working for vince. If he had really wanted him, he could have made him a big offer and had a wrestler who was on good terms with Sting talk to him to reassure him that he wasnt being brought on to be humiliated, he wouldnt have to sew pokadots on his trenchcoat. Foley, Flair, whoever. I'm also sure that he wouldnt have accepted in time to start the invasion off, but he would have possibly been able to make an arrangement in time to have Sting lead the invasion when it was in full swing instead of Austin. On the other hand, a WCW guy invading a WWE show would be the de facto heel, whoever he was, and he may not have gone for it.
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Feb 25, 2010 23:37
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Timby posted:I'm pretty sure that Sting has said that even if the paycheck was huge, he never wants to work for Vince. I don't think the sentiment's that strong. Sting and Vince are on fine terms, Sting just has basically his dream contract with TNA, and the last time signing with Vince was realistic, Sting had reservations about the vulgar direction of the WWE product.
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Feb 25, 2010 23:43
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one of the fuckups that stands out the most for me (and what was to me an indication of how things were going to proceed) is how badly they screwed the DDP / Taker feud. In that one angle they managed to kill DDP's heat entirely, leaving him looking like not just a creepy stalker but a weak creepy stalker who Undertaker's WIFE beat up.
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Feb 25, 2010 23:51
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CVagts posted:Didn't they also do WCW Raw in Seattle, when they could have saved it for like a week and had it be in Atlanta (aka Turnerland)?
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Feb 26, 2010 01:15
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Sting said that it was watching how the WWF handled Booker T confronting The Rock (and I'm sure DDP's treatment as well by being Taker's bitch) that turned him off of signing with the WWF. Had WCW come in, treated Booker T and DDP on par with the WWF headliners and actually tipped the scales in WCW's favour, I bet Sting would have signed and felt comfortable enough to be there. However, it didn't happen. There was a lot of ego involved. I guess it is the one thing about the Legends of Wrestling roundtable about WCW that bothered me. Lawler, Hayes and co. were very adamant that WCW was trying to put the WWF out of business, out of jobs, out of a dream. However, that's exactly what the WWF did to WCW, and did it with a  smile.
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Feb 26, 2010 01:17
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LividLiquid posted:It was in Tacoma, I think. I was there, I know that much. Cheering my rear end off for guys like Kanyon and Kidman while everybody in my area stared at me, confused and annoyed. It was kind of a sneak preview of what Wrestlehut would be like. It was in Tacoma because I tried to score free tickets and was denied. The crowd shat on everything WCW. The main event was terrible because come on Buff Bagwell but the tag match was awesome and they booed the hell out of it.`
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Feb 26, 2010 01:18
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The thing is, I know I was there for the show with Booker and Bagwell, but I also remember seeing Kidman win the Cruiserweight title from Helms. Which I think was on a Smackdown.
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Feb 26, 2010 01:28
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Sting has been in talks with WWE since WCW died, but his demands are never something they want to meet. I think they were close when Goldberg was in, and they didn't want to add ANOTHER part timer to the roster.
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Feb 26, 2010 02:39
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Sting wants the Shawn Michaels deal up-front. No house shows, tons of money, five dates a month. It likely won't happen until Vince is really hard up for a Hall of Fame inductee and Sting doesn't work for TNA anymore. So maybe about two weeks.
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Feb 26, 2010 02:51
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Curtis of Nigeria posted:Here's how you start the Invasion: Pay Sting and have him watching from the rafters. Goldberg spears man.
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Feb 26, 2010 05:00
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Is Sting still capable of a good match? I know back in 99/2000 Sting was still capable of putting on classics (especially his April 1999 match with DDP), but that was ten years ago now. Ive seen what he looks like now and its not very pretty.
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Feb 27, 2010 01:47
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He most certainly is. He's booked terribly, but he's basically the same he's ever been in that when he's given a good opponent, he can have a hell of a match. If he's given a lovely opponent, it gets a little boring.
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Feb 27, 2010 01:50
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MyStereoHasMono posted:Is Sting still capable of a good match? I know back in 99/2000 Sting was still capable of putting on classics (especially his April 1999 match with DDP), but that was ten years ago now. Ive seen what he looks like now and its not very pretty. He's capable, but like he was late in WCW he is rarely motivated and generally just coasts with exceptions where he's facing someone especially motivated or great. He's past 50 now, so he's limited.
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Feb 27, 2010 01:53
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You guys should watch the Guest Booker with Jim Cornette, he makes some really good choices and reasons for them, plus Cornette is awesome and sounds awesome all the time. But, what we really need to ask ourselves is how things would have gone down if the WCW had purchased the WWF.
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Feb 27, 2010 02:04
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maniacripper posted:You guys should watch the Guest Booker with Jim Cornette, he makes some really good choices and reasons for them, plus Cornette is awesome and sounds awesome all the time. AAA would be the biggest wrestling company in North America.
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Feb 27, 2010 03:06
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Jim Cornette booked all these super old guys from the NWA against current WWF stars. He had Undertaker Vs. Terry Funk at Wrestlemania for gently caress's sake.
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Feb 27, 2010 04:46
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LividLiquid posted:Jim Cornette booked all these super old guys from the NWA against current WWF stars. He had Undertaker Vs. Terry Funk at Wrestlemania for gently caress's sake. Jim Cornette is a great guy, but we all need to keep in mind that he's a relic of the carny days, with a southern mentality, and when he ran a company (SMW) it failed because he was stuck in the past.
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Feb 27, 2010 05:24
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Wazzu posted:Jim Cornette is a great guy, but we all need to keep in mind that he's a relic of the carny days, with a southern mentality, and when he ran a company (SMW) it failed because he was stuck in the past. He was one of the bookers during the WWF's rise during the Attitude era, and the product got a lot more Russoriffic after he left creative. So he's not just this old school relic, he was a big part of the Attitude Era.
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Feb 27, 2010 05:26
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Jim Cornette knows how to book heat and he knows how to push a guy to get them over. It's sad that these are rare qualities these days.
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Feb 27, 2010 05:31
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Cornette's booking in OVW was also widely hailed by pretty much everyone that's ever seen it for being the best product around at the time, even though his storylines were continually in flux based on who WWE called up at a given time. If you think Cornette can't book you should really seek some of that stuff out, that era of OVW also produced a lot of top star talent.
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Feb 27, 2010 06:15
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You also have to remember that SMW was an indy promotion that existed before the ECW boom. It wasn't like now where an Indy promotion gets a great deal of recognition, he set it up in an era where you were national or nothing.
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Feb 27, 2010 06:23
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LightsGameraAction posted:Treating WCW as its own promotion would have had the same problem as if they tried to treat ECW as their own- no matter how much they tried to, they could never cover up the fact that it was no under Vince's umbrella. If only they could have temporarily renamed the shows... I would have loved to see RAW on Monday, Nitro on Thursday, and ECW on Sundays. It wouldn't have to be forever, it could have been a short term thing. It could have built up to Wrestlemania dream matches! Instead we got that lovely Survivor Series match...
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Feb 27, 2010 06:58
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MassRayPer posted:He was one of the bookers during the WWF's rise during the Attitude era, and the product got a lot more Russoriffic after he left creative. So he's not just this old school relic, he was a big part of the Attitude Era. I meant it more that while he is great, he does have some very old-school ideas.
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Feb 27, 2010 07:16
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jeffersonlives posted:Cornette's booking in OVW was also widely hailed by pretty much everyone that's ever seen it for being the best product around at the time, even though his storylines were continually in flux based on who WWE called up at a given time. If you think Cornette can't book you should really seek some of that stuff out, that era of OVW also produced a lot of top star talent.
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Feb 27, 2010 08:01
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Heyman and Cornette both have their strong points and both have their weak points. The only real difference is that Heyman lies to everybody pretty much all the time.
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Feb 27, 2010 08:15
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Dragging Iron Feet posted:I never actually saw OVW when it existed but I did hear that the show was a lot better when Heyman took over. I don't think I've heard more than one or two people say this. Except for the people who really liked the reeeeeeeaaaaaaalllly long Punk vs Albright matches.
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Feb 27, 2010 08:16
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It's too bad Cornette didn't have more of a role in TNA. He could have done some really good things.
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Feb 27, 2010 08:18
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Cornette's OVW was great, and it's loving incredible he did it with WWE constantly loving up storylines with inopportune callups. Example: The Damaja and Doug Basham are in the middle of a huge blood feud, the biggest one in OVW. Then WWE calls them both up and puts them in a tag team. Heyman was so unbelievably bad as OVW booker. MRP mentioned it, but he LOVED putting Punk and Brent Albright into absolutely wretched 45 minute matches just about every week. His angles were boring at best and lovely at worst. The characters weren't any good. It was just...bad.
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Feb 27, 2010 08:30
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Sotar posted:It's too bad Cornette didn't have more of a role in TNA. He could have done some really good things.
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Feb 27, 2010 09:02
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LividLiquid posted:His role in TNA pre-Russo produced some really good stuff. Yes but too bad it did not last too long.
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Feb 27, 2010 09:06
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LividLiquid posted:His role in TNA pre-Russo produced some really good stuff. His first week on the job his character lost all credibility because of the stupidly way he was booked with the Jarrett title win and his reactions. It was utterly retarded. "Durr you aren't going to get away with this Jeff! Ok, I guess you will, but you know what? I'm gonna give you a month off from defending and have four guys compete for a title shot on the next PPV!" Ok enough non WCW talk! Here's a fun WCW moment, Arli$$ appears on Nitro. This is seriously one of the weirdest WCW segments. He's introduced as the actor who portrays Arliss a character who is a sports agent. But, after that they act like he really is a sports agent. As a bonus you get a Randy Savage promo and his valets, one of whom you may recognize! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Y6_WNB64s0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDcwnqD_148
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Feb 27, 2010 09:12
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