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Imp Boy posted:Pretty much every bomber from that war had an absurdly cramped interior. I have no idea how crews got out when the things were hit, because there is hardly enough room to turn around. The nose position in a B-25 pretty much consists of being crammed into a 3 foot high cabinet. From what I've understood, if you where lucky, you fell through the hole that was just blown in your plane. Also my grandfather, who was a big guy for the age, is only like 5'10" and in WWII weighed like 150 pounds.
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Apr 14, 2010 06:04
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Imp Boy posted:Pretty much every bomber from that war had an absurdly cramped interior. I have no idea how crews got out when the things were hit, because there is hardly enough room to turn around. The nose position in a B-25 pretty much consists of being crammed into a 3 foot high cabinet. Still not as bad, I think, as being the ventral gunner in (and I do literally mean IN) the ball turret on a B-24 or B-17. I regrettably forgot to take a picture of the one on a -24 at the Pima museum -- they have a dummy stuffed inside in firing position, and let me say that I can see why they had the youngest, smallest kids on the bomber crews. Here's how you operated that turret:   Yep. Rolled up into a fetal position, sighting between your legs, with the guns mounted directly beside your ears, crammed into a conspicuous three-foot-wide ball that hangs off the bottom of the plane. The only way in or out is through a hatch in the top (which leads into another cramped space full of electronics and ammo belts) that requires the guns to be unlocked and swung around to access. I wonder if any ball turret gunners in a plane that was going down ever made it out alive. [e] "Ironically, post war analysis of B-17 crew fatality records revealed that the ball turret gunner had the safest job on the plane (with the pilot having the most dangerous)." The more you know! From here: http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~josephkennedy/sperry_ball_turret.htm orange lime fucked around with this message at 06:25 on Apr 14, 2010 |
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Apr 14, 2010 06:18
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The best thing about the touring B-17 and B-24? They smell just like an army surplus store, even from 10 feet away. When I was 11, my mom heard about the touring planes and took me to see them. When she heard that we could take rides, I was boarding the B-17 when she came screeching out onto the tarmac from one of the booths. Apparently she didn't know it cost money to fly on them, let alone the $400 they were charging at the time. Aw man. Since then, I've made sure to visit the bombers every year. These are my favorites from my 2008 visit.  I had the higher-res version of this as my wallpaper for the whole loving summer.    There need to be more pictures of WWII era planes reflected in WWII era hubcaps! 
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Apr 14, 2010 06:40
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VikingSkull posted:The Nine-O-Nine I read the pamphlet while I was waiting, and the plane the Collins Foundation has painted up as the Nine-O-Nine once saw service as a firefighting aircraft. I wonder if there were any police departments putting lightbars on surplus armored cars.
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Apr 14, 2010 06:51
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I love that plane.
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Breaky posted:Holy poo poo it had a 70% thrust increase over the F-5... didn't know that. And, if my memory isn't completely trashed, it was the fastest aircraft to become airborne, from a cold start, ever.
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Apr 14, 2010 15:43
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Previa_fun posted:
WINGS. I loving grew up on that poo poo. Everyone else came home after school and watched the Nintendo hour or ninja turtles, I sat down for an hour of Wings followed by another hour of Wings of the Red Star. The show didn't have flashy computer graphics showing 3-D views of the plane, didn't have some lame-rear end narrator trying to sound awesome, it was just production photos and stock footage, and it was loving AWESOME.
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Apr 14, 2010 17:45
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Every Wednesday night I would watch the show religiously. I wish the Discovery Wings channel still existed... I was mighty pissed when I saw it became the Military Channel. I also remember when Speed was Speedvision and certain days of the week were planes and others boats/motorcycles etc. I miss those shows...
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Apr 14, 2010 18:47
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Boomerjinks posted:WINGS.
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Apr 14, 2010 19:16
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Boomerjinks posted:WINGS. I can still remember the music and narrator's voice from Wings of the Red Star. I used to have a ton of episodes I had taped.
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Apr 14, 2010 19:25
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I wish they'd release Wings/Wings of the Red Star/Wings of the Luftwaffe on DVD. I'm sure it'd be expensive as gently caress, but I'd still buy the hell out of it. Those were awesome shows.
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Apr 14, 2010 19:31
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Here's a few pics from Sun n' Fun:      Sorry for the lovely cellphone pics. I took more but for some reason, I couldn't get them sent. Ahhh the smell of AVGAS and jet fuel is drifting through the air. this is fun. Right now there's a bunch of WWII planes flying over.
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Apr 14, 2010 20:09
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Previa_fun posted:I'd like to give a shout-out to the best fighter that almost was: The Northrop F-20 Tigershark. Last page ago, but holy poo poo is that gorgeous.  
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Apr 14, 2010 20:25
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Ball turrets are crazy: The B-24 was not as well liked by crews as the B-17 was, despite its long range and big bombload. Apparently unlike the B-17 any crew in the foreward section of the plane wanting to bail out had to get to the after section of the plane first; this included walking through the bomb-bay first on a rickety catwalk. On a related note, I think the reason pilot casulties were the highest is because with either the B-17 or the B-24, if the plane went too far out of control, the G force buildup would make it impossible to move. So often the pilots would have to wait until everybody else was out, then make a break for the escape hatches themselves.
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Apr 15, 2010 02:41
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Nebakenezzer posted:On a related note, I think the reason pilot casulties were the highest is because with either the B-17 or the B-24, if the plane went too far out of control, the G force buildup would make it impossible to move. So often the pilots would have to wait until everybody else was out, then make a break for the escape hatches themselves. Are you saying they were fighting the yoke so their crew mates could get out or that they were pinned in their seat by said yoke?
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Apr 15, 2010 03:06
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Nebakenezzer posted:Ball turrets are crazy: German pilots also attacked bombers head-on, since it was the least-defended area. Lots of pilot/co-pilot exposure that way. It's why the B-17G got the chin turret.
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Apr 15, 2010 03:07
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Minto Took posted:Are you saying they were fighting the yoke so their crew mates could get out or that they were pinned in their seat by said yoke? They were fighting to hold the plane in some control, so the plane wouldn't spin and exert g forces on anybody trying to get out.
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Apr 15, 2010 03:22
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Boomerjinks posted:WINGS. Then Beyond 2000 came on and I wanted a robot and didn't do my homework. e- also today a KC-10 was doing touch and go's all day at Stewart 
Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 04:13
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VikingSkull posted:Then Beyond 2000 came on and I wanted a robot and didn't do my homework. Wings of the Red Star was my definite favorite. Partially growing up during the Cold War painted the Russians as this mysterious enemy. Also, Beyond 2000 and Next Step were awesome.
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Apr 15, 2010 04:19
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orange lime posted:Still not as bad, I think, as being the ventral gunner in (and I do literally mean IN) the ball turret on a B-24 or B-17. I regrettably forgot to take a picture of the one on a -24 at the Pima museum -- they have a dummy stuffed inside in firing position, and let me say that I can see why they had the youngest, smallest kids on the bomber crews. My Grandpa was the ball-turret gunner in the B-24, he showed us when we were younger how he got in and out of the thing. He basically got in upside down, and dealt with it for hours at a time. I only wish he hadn't died before I could ask more about it 
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Apr 15, 2010 04:34
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VikingSkull posted:
Fun to watch, but sucks be in the plane for that. Anyone who has the slightest touch of motion sickness WILL vomit under those conditions. If you've got sympathetic pukers in the area, the situation rapidly deteriorates. I've been stuck next to a puker twice.
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Apr 15, 2010 04:41
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Rear gunners in IL-2 Sturmoviks were killed 7 times as often as the pilots. I guess thats what happens when they delete the gunner position during development and have to subsequently kludge it in without armor during the war. Poor guys didnt even get a proper seat, they had a canvas sling to sit on.
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Apr 15, 2010 06:20
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Previa_fun posted:I can still remember the music and narrator's voice from Wings of the Red Star. I used to have a ton of episodes I had taped. There's a ton of Wings on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mz5Ym-skf0&feature=related
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Apr 15, 2010 08:00
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Previa_fun posted:Would have been perfect for, say, the Thunderbirds, but instead they fly the incredibly overrated F-16. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcFWP_TvNjM I'm sorry I couldn't hear you. EDIT: My favorite F-16 is the F-16 "Big Gulp" as I called it as a kid.  Click here for the full 800x544 image. blugu64 fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 09:06
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I don't get how people on Airliners.net get such great photos out of airplane windows Also  
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Apr 15, 2010 09:17
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SyHopeful posted:German pilots also attacked bombers head-on, since it was the least-defended area. Lots of pilot/co-pilot exposure that way. It's why the B-17G got the chin turret. Yeah, if I remember correctly the preferred attack pattern was to come in either head on or in a dive strafing across the wings and cockpit. Of course, the poor bastard in the ball turret was really hosed if the hydraulics failed and the pilot had to do a belly landing. Without power the turret couldn't rotate to where the hatch could be opened, and he was stuck until the plane landed one way or another. Another tactic the Germans loved was to send a captured bomber up to the formation to relay altitude and position to the flak and fighters ahead. A couple of the veterans I talked to mentioned seeing these, and that they learned pretty quickly to unload on any plane that didn't have the right squadron tail code.
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Apr 15, 2010 09:37
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Godholio posted:Fun to watch, but sucks be in the plane for that. Anyone who has the slightest touch of motion sickness WILL vomit under those conditions. If you've got sympathetic pukers in the area, the situation rapidly deteriorates. I've been stuck next to a puker twice. At one point it was turning with like a 40 degree bank, it did make me a bit sick seeing the tops of the wings that short after take off. Then again the C-5s do that stuff all the time so maybe I'm desensitized. I just wish the Phantoms were still flying over my house
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Apr 15, 2010 11:44
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Minto Took posted:Wings of the Red Star was my definite favorite. Partially growing up during the Cold War painted the Russians as this mysterious enemy. Beyond 2000's production company is responsible for Mythbusters 
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Apr 15, 2010 16:08
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Imp Boy posted:
I've never heard about this. Got anymore info on it?
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Apr 15, 2010 16:14
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OptimusMatrix posted:I've never heard about this. Got anymore info on it? Ditto, I remember reading up on the relatively frequent updating markings/stripes/camo on aircraft to reduce the risk from captured aircraft, but not that. Makes sense though, little to no aerial radar, nevertheless IFF, but I wonder what course they'd send the bomber on to slip past escorts and kinda slide into formation. Though...what Allied bomber bases operating B-17/24/25s were overrun with aircraft captured intact? I feel like there's a huge gap in my WWII knowledge, I can't think of one right now.
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Apr 15, 2010 16:25
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movax posted:Ditto, I remember reading up on the relatively frequent updating markings/stripes/camo on aircraft to reduce the risk from captured aircraft, but not that. Makes sense though, little to no aerial radar, nevertheless IFF, but I wonder what course they'd send the bomber on to slip past escorts and kinda slide into formation. Plenty of them made forced landings in Germany. I have books that talk about the Germans using this strategy, but no scanner or the drive to browse 1,000 page tomes about WWII. They did do it, though. They got around the escorts by waiting until the escorts left. Fully escorted bombing missions weren't common until late in the war. The Germans did this stuff in every aspect, most notably in the Battle of the Bulge when they used captured uniforms and jeeps to breach the defenses of Bastogne. Seizure Meat fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Apr 15, 2010 |
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Apr 15, 2010 16:34
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VikingSkull posted:Plenty of them made forced landings in Germany. I have books that talk about the Germans using this strategy, but no scanner or the drive to browse 1,000 page tomes about WWII. They did do it, though. They got around the escorts by waiting until the escorts left. Fully escorted bombing missions weren't common until late in the war. Ahh, yeah, forced landings would be easy enough to repair and fly again. Not surprised about disguising/using captured land vehicles (would more surprised if that did not occur, heh). And I suppose before the P-51 came around, after the -47s and -38s would leave, I'm picturing this B-17 just dashing out from nowhere and joining the formation, "sup guys".
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Apr 15, 2010 16:40
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Not a good example because the Axis powers wouldn't send a plane with their own marking to masquerade with attackers, but maybe it will provide some insight into how common this actually was. 
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Apr 15, 2010 19:51
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There's even stories of Mustang on Mustang dogfights. Once your production base is wrecked, you have to improvise I suppose.
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Apr 15, 2010 20:04
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I thought I had heard the tactic wasnt very successful as the other bomber pilots were wary of aircraft trying to join their formations that often had out of date or incorrect markings etc.
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Apr 16, 2010 03:30
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 Story: a German BF 110 sliced through the B-17 with its left wing, leaving only the fuselage opposite attached. The B-17 made it back to base, though the collision killed the waist and tail gunners.
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Apr 16, 2010 08:29
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Imp Boy posted:Of course, the poor bastard in the ball turret was really hosed if the hydraulics failed and the pilot had to do a belly landing. Without power the turret couldn't rotate to where the hatch could be opened, and he was stuck until the plane landed one way or another. I dunno what turret you're thinking of, but the Sperry turrets were electrically powered and had backup hand cranks as well.
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Apr 16, 2010 08:39
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orange lime posted:I dunno what turret you're thinking of, but the Sperry turrets were electrically powered and had backup hand cranks as well. Also have some early Kevin Costner and Kiefer Sutherland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WD7B0cfTXlc&feature=related
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Apr 16, 2010 09:13
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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VikingSkull posted:There's even stories of Mustang on Mustang dogfights. Once your production base is wrecked, you have to improvise I suppose. Do you know how many captured P-51's were in use by the luftwaffe? Sounds interesting. In WW2 aircombat identification was a real problem, even more so when you had numerical superiority, so things like this could happen: Erich Hartmann posted:
There are similar stories about Finnish pilots diving into a formation of Russian planes and getting away after an attack due to all the confusion.
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Apr 16, 2010 12:15
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orange lime posted:I dunno what turret you're thinking of, but the Sperry turrets were electrically powered and had backup hand cranks as well. drat, that's what I get for posting before going to sleep. I distinctly remember reading about turrets getting jammed up and some poor gunner getting squished on a belly landing. It was still a lovely job to be stuck in a bubble for 10 hours at a time.
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Apr 17, 2010 03:41
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An alumnus of the local engineering school's aero program came back for a visit today in his work vehicle. He let the students and teachers climb all over it, but said the government would kill him if anybody sat in it.      Click here for the full 800x541 image.  Click here for the full 800x522 image.  Click here for the full 800x530 image.  Click here for the full 671x800 image. The pilot:  Click here for the full 800x518 image. Not Pooh, he just borrowed Pooh's plane. The squadron CO and XO get their names on jets 1 and 2, but who actually flies which bird is randomly assigned based on which ones are working that day -- the F/A-18C fleet is getting a bit long in the tooth, but the Navy is trying to keep them flying until they get the F-35 rather than buying more Super Hornets. Your tax dollars dribbling out onto the apron:  Click here for the full 535x800 image. He wasn't kidding about them getting old. I forget the ridiculous number of hours he said were on that particular airframe, but it's a lot more than McDonnell Douglas intended.
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Apr 17, 2010 03:43
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