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TyChan posted:What kind of practice would just let an intern write a SJ motion? I got to write one as a 1L and the court directly quoted a sentence out of it (I noticed because you can see the judge suddenly start overusing commas) 
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May 25, 2010 01:10
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I just wanted to say the last couple pages about the industry stuff have been really interesting and it's appreciated. New question (turning away from the difficulties): What was the funnest summer associate activity you did?
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May 25, 2010 01:21
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sigmachiev posted:What was the funnest summer associate activity you did? Retreat to the Hamptons for the weekend - just a good drunken time. All of our events kind of sucked because our engaged recruiting director was hooking up with an engaged summer (not engaged to each other). They kind of turned each event into their own private date, so if you hung around after the partners left, they would shoot dagger eyes at you unless you had an associate or summer you were also hooking up with, then you were welcome. It was also ridiculously gossipy because anything you said to a fellow summer would eventually get back to recruiting. Also, some events are very hard to not get drunk at. We had a vodka tasting that was scheduled BEFORE the event dinner. The same recruiting director as above got so drunk she puked. (She was not laid off during our layoffs either).
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May 25, 2010 01:50
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sigmachiev posted:New question (turning away from the difficulties): What was the funnest summer associate activity you did? My favorite activity as a summer associate was confronting my 50-year-old boss about his 30-year-old ex-hooker girlfriend domestically abusing him in his house above the basement home office where I worked. She threw a heavy glass candle holder at him once, and sent him to the hospital with stitches above one of his eyes. Another time she ripped off the rear-view mirror of his lovely 1980s used Porsche and brought it into the office where she chucked it at him. (Perhaps my favorite memory is the time that she came down into the office to hide from the cops.) I particularly enjoyed the part where I said that I couldn't work in such an environment, and that he shouldn't have to either. And then I quit! Ah, to be a 2L again... (all of this true, without embellishment)
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May 25, 2010 02:39
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TyChan posted:What kind of practice would just let an intern write a SJ motion? Wisconsin Department of Justice. That said, I got hired because my writing sample was good and a summary judgment motion, and the motion I'm putting together is largely copy-pasting from previous briefs put together by my supervisor. Additionally, the case is pretty much open and shut. Honestly, my only real issue is that I've never learned the Wisconsin Rules of Civil Procedure and I have no idea what local rules this court is using. WDOJ depressing anecdote of the day: we have a 2L from Michigan working the same job as me. We are not getting paid. No one will get hired based upon their performance at this job. The worst part is that he seems to be a fairly nice guy.
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May 25, 2010 02:46
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evilweasel posted:what practice group is this and how do I get it It's not just the practice group, but the particulars of a practice group and your role within it. While I was employed, I had an experience similar to HooKar's boyfriend: I was able to bill most of my time, and generally work consistent hours. I was in IP litigation, working on large-budget cases mainly as a tech geek. I'd sometimes have crazy swings, mostly when doing odds-and-ends projects between big cases, or around the big deadlines in the big cases, but when mostly working on just one big case at a time it was usually easy to make hours on a reasonable schedule because many of my projects were "spend 150 hours next month teaching yourself quantum mechanics" or "review these reams of prior art by next Wednesday". Man do I miss it. Note: even within a practice group, go off of materials from the specific person you're working for every time. I have been yelled at for using one partner's forms on a project for another partner, despite the fact that the materials I was recycling were from the most similar case law-wise and a much bigger case in terms of dollars and importance.
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May 25, 2010 02:49
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JudicialRestraints posted:Now how the gently caress do I write this motion for summary judgment? I don't even know my state's rules of civil procedure. 1. If it's a traditional motion, familiarize yourself with the law and the facts. If it's a no-evidence motion (if your state has no-evidence motions, make sure there's been adequate time for discovery), familiarize yourself with the facts. 2. Crib from someone else's poo poo. If it's a matter of law and they've hired interns before, there's a memo somewhere. Also find a motion that was actually filed and look at it. 3. Index your evidence somewhere in the motion. If the motion is big enough, index your authority. 4. If you're doing a statement of facts, try to have a physical piece of evidence for every sentence you write. 5. Inline citations for law, footnotes for attached evidence (style preference). 6. If it's a matter of law, look up the cases they cite, work backwards from the keynotes. 7. Be reader-friendly. 8. Realize they're going to edit the living gently caress out of it and don't get too attached but still do a good job. If you need some more help, PM me or ask here. God knows I owe guys like GamingHyena, Phil Moscowitz and builds character a loving lot and this way's kinda paying them back (or it forward). Oh, and find a practice book somewhere. Seriously, they're a godsend. By practice book it's like "[Name's] Rules for Civil Trials" or some poo poo. TyChan posted:What kind of practice would just let an intern write a SJ motion? Small ones and ones that get paid on contingency. GamingHyena posted:Are you kidding? I let my interns draft court orders and waivers! Don't let them find out, that poo poo's seriously a soul-crusher. Had it happen to me once or twice. G-Mawwwwwww fucked around with this message at 03:14 on May 25, 2010 |
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May 25, 2010 03:04
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OptimistPrime posted:when mostly working on just one big case at a time it was usually easy to make hours on a reasonable schedule because many of my projects were "spend 150 hours next month teaching yourself quantum mechanics" or "review these reams of prior art by next Wednesday". Man do I miss it. God, my eyes.
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May 25, 2010 03:36
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JudicialRestraints posted:
If I ever don't know how to start something, I take a look at Wisconsin Pleading and Practice. It's decent resource. And all of (most of) the local rules are on the State Bar's website. Some of them are even correct! It doesn't hurt to double check with the clerk's office on procedural things. The "current" local rules can be wrong or the judge might just do things a different way.
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May 25, 2010 03:59
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OK, some questions. I took a long while off after undergrad and grad school, but, with employment the way it is, am under family pressure to stop teaching, man up, and go to law school. I went to the University Of Mary Washington and finished in 2006 with about a 3.8 GPA. UMW is a small school, but consistently ranks in the top public schools in the US. I went to Virginia Commonwealth University for free to get my M.A. in History via thesis track and be a T.A., and have been teaching AP high school and community college since then. However, this means I'm now 4-ish years out of undergrad. I went to a cheap public school and TA-and-barista'd my way through my MA,so I am debt clear. Will schools see this as a tremendous liability? Aside from that, I've already got good GREs that are usable until the end of this year, and am reasonably confident about taking LSATs. My question for the Law School Thread is about programs in Virginia. I'd be applying to William & Mary, University of Virginia, maybe Georgetown. What are the prospects for these schools like now? I read the OP, but am not sure how it has been adapted for the current nasty-as-hell economic climate. Thanks for any help y'all can give me.
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May 25, 2010 04:56
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no, but for the love of god don't go to law school because you are "under family pressure to stop teaching, man up, and go to law school." if you insist on being retarded: 3.8 is great but nobody can tell you anything till you know what range your lsat might be
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May 25, 2010 04:58
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evilweasel posted:no, but for the love of god don't go to law school because you are "under family pressure to stop teaching, man up, and go to law school." That's why I'm feeling around first. My primary question is probably about my gap filled with teaching and an MA -- does anyone know how admissions folks look at that / if they care? edit: I've always been interested in social law, legal history, jurisprudence, and philosophy of law since forever, and have a friend working as an ADA who I admire and can see doing the sort of work he does, so it's not "but mom, I don't WANT to be a lawyer!"
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May 25, 2010 05:00
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TyChan posted:What kind of practice would just let an intern write a SJ motion? Eh, as a 3L in clinic I drafted the complaint to a lawsuit for a biglaw firm we were cocounsel with.
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May 25, 2010 05:02
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BrotherAdso posted:
Most of those things are not lawyers.
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May 25, 2010 05:04
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JudicialRestraints posted:WDOJ depressing anecdote of the day: we have a 2L from Michigan working the same job as me. We are not getting paid. No one will get hired based upon their performance at this job. The worst part is that he seems to be a fairly nice guy. tell him to sack up. 2L year I was doing a volunteer internship with the Dane County court system. Highlight of that summer: denying a motion from Ms. Packman. (No, I did not throw in a bunch of video game references.)
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May 25, 2010 05:04
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BrotherAdso posted:That's why I'm feeling around first. My primary question is probably about my gap filled with teaching and an MA -- does anyone know how admissions folks look at that / if they care? They don't care but everything I've heard is that doing things between college and law school is a plus, not a minus. Also, I love legal history, jurisprudence, and philosophy of law and the last thing that I did that related to those was a question on Dworkin on an LSAT practice test. I mean, I still like law school but not because of those interests.
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May 25, 2010 05:05
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evilweasel posted:... I did that related to those was a question on Dworkin on an LSAT practice test. I mean, I still like law school but not because of those interests. That's unfortunate but not really unexpected. Does a larger diversity of specializations/interests occur in the last year that allows you to study those things a little more closely?
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May 25, 2010 05:07
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BrotherAdso posted:That's unfortunate but not really unexpected. Does a larger diversity of specializations/interests occur in the last year that allows you to study those things a little more closely? There are no jobs in those areas. If you are studying philosophy of law it means you have already given up on your degree and are planning on blowing 200k. Have fun with that.
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May 25, 2010 05:09
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BrotherAdso posted:That's unfortunate but not really unexpected. Does a larger diversity of specializations/interests occur in the last year that allows you to study those things a little more closely? I wouldn't know, I just finished my second year. The choice of classes I have second year is the same as third year though, I'm just more likely to get the classes I want this year. You can take some conlaw classes that do that sort of stuff, but it's really not at all what law school is about. The question is virtually never what the law should be, it's what the law is or what you can claim the law is. edit: what JudicialRestraints said too: law school is training for a job and none of those interests apply to jobs evilweasel fucked around with this message at 05:12 on May 25, 2010 |
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May 25, 2010 05:09
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evilweasel posted:I wouldn't know, I just finished my second year. The choice of classes I have second year is the same as third year though, I'm just more likely to get the classes I want this year. Knowing about the history, nature, and ideas behind law has to have some jobs somewhere, but I won't argue that -- you two are speaking from experience. The idea of spending most of my time learning in deep detail the facts of law and methods of interpretation/use doesn't bother me, if that's worth anything. Thanks for the info, maybe someone else can address some of the more specific school/admissions stuff I was asking about.
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May 25, 2010 05:16
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BrotherAdso posted:Knowing about the history, nature, and ideas behind law has to have some jobs somewhere, but I won't argue that -- you two are speaking from experience. The idea of spending most of my time learning in deep detail the facts of law and methods of interpretation/use doesn't bother me, if that's worth anything. There are, but you basically need to go to Yale to get them. Yale isn't in Virginia. BrotherAdso posted:Thanks for the info, maybe someone else can address some of the more specific school/admissions stuff I was asking about. Take a LSAT practice test under real conditions, check your score, and we can tell you a whole lot more.
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May 25, 2010 05:19
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BrotherAdso posted:Knowing about the history, nature, and ideas behind law has to have some jobs somewhere, but I won't argue that -- you two are speaking from experience. The idea of spending most of my time learning in deep detail the facts of law and methods of interpretation/use doesn't bother me, if that's worth anything. I got an undergrad in this stuff. The only people with jobs in philosophy of law/sociology of law/the sort of thing you care about are people with Phds. It's a fun subject of study, it's just that a JD is really peripheral. Only a couple of my professors had one and ALL of my professors had a doctorate.
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May 25, 2010 05:21
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evilweasel posted:Take a LSAT practice test under real conditions, check your score, and we can tell you a whole lot more. I'll be doing so over the summer, most likely. Teaching takes up too much time to study as much as I ought to, and public schools aren't out until mid-June. I'm hoping taking logic in undergrad and extensive hardass academic writing in grad school will be a help. Thanks for the preliminary lay of the land, both here and in the encyclopedic OP.
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May 25, 2010 05:24
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BrotherAdso posted:I'll be doing so over the summer, most likely. Teaching takes up too much time to study as much as I ought to, and public schools aren't out until mid-June. I'm hoping taking logic in undergrad and extensive hardass academic writing in grad school will be a help. Thanks for the preliminary lay of the land, both here and in the encyclopedic OP. You don't even need to study, where you get on a cold try is still helpful.
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May 25, 2010 05:25
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JudicialRestraints posted:There are no jobs in those areas. If you are studying philosophy of law it means you have already given up on your degree and are planning on blowing 200k. Have fun with that. In better times, those classes meant "I'm a 3L with an offer, I don't give a gently caress about practical applications."
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May 25, 2010 05:29
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BrotherAdso posted:Knowing about the history, nature, and ideas behind law has to have some jobs somewhere, but I won't argue that -- you two are speaking from experience. The idea of spending most of my time learning in deep detail the facts of law and methods of interpretation/use doesn't bother me, if that's worth anything. The professoriate, in which case it would behoove you to get a JD/PhD in philosophy, so you can be a philosophy professor. There aren't many openings for legal history / philosophy professors in the law schools themselves. (There are some, particularly at NYU, but overall very few because law schools are focused on trade.) Now I love legal history and the philosophy of law, so I don't want to dismiss it. But a law student is in school to get a job. And a law student taking classes in legal history and philosophy is incurring a huge opportunity cost by sacrificing the ability to take a class in an area that there are jobs in. I mean, given the choice between taking a class in philosophy of law and securities regulation I would want the philosophy class any day, but it's the class in securities that would qualify me for jobs in the financial sector. Basically the more you take classes out of academic curiosity, the more unemployable you become. That's obviously not a desirable outcome but it's the one that results from your having to choose between interesting classes and ones that there are actually jobs in.
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May 25, 2010 05:30
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BrotherAdso posted:I'd be applying to (maybe)
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May 25, 2010 06:04
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sigmachiev posted:What was the funnest summer associate activity you did? Weekend retreat to a coastal resort. They put each of us up in $500 suites and, as Hookars said, it was just a drunken good time. The hiring partner got wasted and led us in pouring water on a young female associate. She got me back good.
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May 25, 2010 08:05
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I know it's a long shot, but does anyone know how the job market is for foreign students graduating with a LLM from a US university? I'm heading to Yale this fall to do my LLM and I'm trying to get an idea of what my chances are of landing a job at a New York firm. My impression is that the market is still so tanked that foreign LLM graduates don't even get a look in, but I'd be happy to hear any first hand accounts.
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May 25, 2010 13:16
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Got my Conlaw grade back. It was a B. The honeymoon has ended.
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May 25, 2010 13:16
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BrotherAdso posted:That's unfortunate but not really unexpected. Does a larger diversity of specializations/interests occur in the last year that allows you to study those things a little more closely? Sure man my law school offered all kinds of bullshit classes like that and I took a few. They were interesting and gave me credits toward finishing my degree but they sure haven't helped find a job to pay down this looming 150k of debt. If you enjoy what you are doing now why would you drop it all to go into six figures of debt where literally the best possible outcome is you win the grade lottery and get a job where you work 80 hours a week poring over boring minutiae until one day your children who hate/don't even know you find you dead at your desk and the only reason they checked on you was because they were coming to ask you for some money
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May 25, 2010 15:07
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lotsalag posted:I know it's a long shot, but does anyone know how the job market is for foreign students graduating with a LLM from a US university? It depends on what else you have to bring to the table. For example, firms in NYC are still hiring for China practices because their economy is still growing. Also, the recruiting dynamic is slightly different for LL.M.s as opposed to normal law students because LL.M.s should have employment experience from previous jobs. It's like you're already experienced, but you're able to interview for a 1st year associate position. Contrast this to the large amounts of JD candidates exiting law schools with little-to-no practical job experience. If your a LL.M., you can be better off than others because you have something to bring to the table besides a degree and a pair of bright eyes. However, much more than fresh JDs, your prospects are shaped by what you have done before law school. You might also have to worry about visa issues, which complicates the job hunt immensely and the expense of getting your visa has a sneaky way of playing into hiring decisions.
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May 25, 2010 15:29
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BrotherAdso posted:OK, some questions. To answer your basic question, your time off as a graduate student will not be seen as a liability. If you can fill your resume up with something, that's fine. At the same time, as others have said, you have spouted out a variety of terrible reasons for going to law school that reflect a complete cluelessness on the part of yourself and your family members about how the legal job market is shaping up right now and what the sector will be like in the future. This is not a good recipe for fun because while you're the one toiling away trying to get your 1L grades up to snuff, darting around from callback to callback, and having to deal with things potentially not working out either due to a permanent employment contraction or just general bad luck, it sounds like much of your family will be going "WHY AREN'T YOU MAKING $180K A YEAR YET?" Edit: Sorry for the double post...
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May 25, 2010 15:38
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HooKars posted:Retreat to the Hamptons for the weekend - just a good drunken time. Fancy pants. We went to some place in Florida, Gulf side. The highlight of the weekend was an impromptu office vs office flip cup competition that included summers, associates, and partners. Trash talking ensued. Words got heated. Bottles of beer were broken, but not from anger. No, someone just fell on the table holding the empties. The smallest satellite office won. All the other offices were scrubs. Only one of us puked, but that was hours later. Do firms even do retreats anymore?
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May 25, 2010 16:07
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Defleshed posted:Sure man my law school offered all kinds of bullshit classes like that and I took a few. They were interesting and gave me credits toward finishing my degree but they sure haven't helped find a job to pay down this looming 150k of debt. That's hardly the best case scenario. More like, you'll get a tuition waiver, not give a toss about grades, and work consistently and well in a public sector job. Then graduate into a job with respectable hours, people, and pay, working for justice and the public good like some chivalrous nobleman in a field that inspires the hearts and minds of everybody. Also, you'll be regarded as having some semi-divine talent in regards to the law, and will constantly get annoying questions from everybody, albeit spoken with a sort of reverent awe for your brilliance. Edit: also your family will think your the most successful person on the planet, a doctor and a lawyer, and your kids will worship you because not only will they recognize you, you'll actually have time to teach them tha you are awesome. Lykourgos fucked around with this message at 16:56 on May 25, 2010 |
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May 25, 2010 16:49
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Lykourgos posted:That's hardly the best case scenario. More like, you'll get a tuition waiver, not give a toss about grades, and work consistently and well in a public sector job. Then graduate into a job with respectable hours, people, and pay, working for justice and the public good like some chivalrous nobleman in a field that inspires the hearts and minds of everybody. Also, you'll be regarded as having some semi-divine talent in regards to the law, and will constantly get annoying questions from everybody, albeit spoken with a sort of reverent awe for your brilliance. I meant "best possible outcome" in terms of what 0Ls are thinking they'll be doing in three years when applying to T14 law schools. You don't have to sell the public sector to me, I know that is where it is at but I also know I could get a public sector job without dumping six figures and three years of my life into a law degree.
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May 25, 2010 16:56
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Defleshed posted:I meant "best possible outcome" in terms of what 0Ls are thinking they'll be doing in three years when applying to T14 law schools. Yes, but what sort of public sector job would you get without the degree? No doubt there are good ones out there, but some require it. Also, you don't get the intangible benefits of awe and praise; as terrible as the public expectations can be for unemployed law grads, those doing work, even unpaid, are like modern demigods to the public, regularly achieving heroic tasks of great import.
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May 25, 2010 17:06
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TyChan posted:What kind of practice would just let an intern write a SJ motion? I've written an appellate brief to the Federal Circuit as a 3L intern.
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May 25, 2010 17:10
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Lykourgos posted:Yes, but what sort of public sector job would you get without the degree? No doubt there are good ones out there, but some require it. Also, you don't get the intangible benefits of awe and praise; as terrible as the public expectations can be for unemployed law grads, those doing work, even unpaid, are like modern demigods to the public, regularly achieving heroic tasks of great import. Heroic tasks of great import doesn't put liquor in my tummy!
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May 25, 2010 17:14
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Defleshed posted:Heroic tasks of great import doesn't put liquor in my tummy! you're doing the wrong heroic tasks of great import might I suggest the world series of flipcup
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May 25, 2010 17:20
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