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What are the most important qualities for different defensive position players to have?
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Jul 6, 2010 04:34
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Gendo posted:Seriously just take that and give it a competent defense WHAT THE gently caress MINNESOTA I remember the 2005 Wisconsin game where Laurence Maroney ran for 250+ yards, and still lost by giving up a ten point lead in the last three and a half minutes I knew the Gophers would lose because I was with my friend Adam and when we scored the touchdown to put us up two scores with 4 minutes to go he said, so smugly, "Game". That was the jinx right there. Blame Adam.
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Jul 6, 2010 04:39
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tk posted:I'm going to expand on this. Not all of this directly pertains directly to football, but it comes up a lot and can be useful to know. There also another governing body of collegiate athletics called the NAIA, scholarship restrictions work different and most play is at about the D3 level, so you'll never hear about them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_of_Intercollegiate_Athletics
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Jul 6, 2010 04:42
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One Sick Puppy posted:
It's hilarious how two people can root for the same team and have completely opposing views on something like this.
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Jul 6, 2010 04:43
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I love these threads because even though I've been watching my whole life, there's still a few things I'm not sure on.
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Jul 6, 2010 04:43
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Scotty posted:Choosing a team The Miami Dolphins are the obvious choice here. We have the funniest/wackiest player in the league in Ricky Williams, the Wildcat, and legendary NFL iron-man Chad Pennington who has twice returned from major injury to win Comeback Player of the Year award. Also we have the best avatars in TFF and you'll be part of this highly exclusive gang. Also this: Cool Photos!:
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Jul 6, 2010 04:48
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Doppelganger posted:What are the most important qualities for different defensive position players to have? Defensive tackles: Girth, strength Defensive ends/3-4 outside linebackers: Strength, quick burst speed to rush passer Linebackers: Tackling ability, play recognition, lateral quickness Safeties: Play recognition, speed, tackling ability Cornerbacks: Speed, ability to read passer/receiver, hand/eye coordination
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Jul 6, 2010 04:55
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nnnAdam posted:The Miami Dolphins are the obvious choice here. We have the funniest/wackiest player in the league in Ricky Williams, the Wildcat, and legendary NFL iron-man Chad Pennington who has twice returned from major injury to win Comeback Player of the Year award. Also we have the best avatars in TFF and you'll be part of this highly exclusive gang. The Dolphins and the Texans are the two teams I would pick if I was just now getting in football. Both are really talented and definitely on their way up. Both have really awsome exciting offenses. In fact, the Texans are my secret 2nd team.
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Jul 6, 2010 05:04
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Doppelganger posted:What are the most important qualities for different defensive position players to have? This is an extremely complicated question to answer, but I will do my very best for you. There are two major defensive formations used in the NFL. These are the 4-3 and the 3-4. The first number refers to the number of Defensive Lineman and the second to the Linebackers. Note: There are exceptions to every single rule I'm about to put forward, this is simply the basics of formation theory. 4-3 First, we will start with the 4 Defensive Lineman. On either side are Defensive Ends, and in the middle are 2 Defensive Tackles. Defensive Ends in this formation should be about 280 pounds, tall (6'3" or taller) with long arms and very quick off the line, usually referred to as having a "quick first step." This allows them to get around the Offensive Tackles on either end of the Offensive Line. The good ones will also have different moves they employ, like the swim move, where they move their arms up over their heads to push the Offensive Lineman's hands out of the way. Another popular move is the spin move where they will spin in a circle to try and confuse the Offensive Lineman and get past them. Defensive Tackles in this scheme should be around 6'4", about 290 pounds, and also be quick off the line. They will use the same moves as the Defensive Ends in most cases. Linebackers should be taller than 6'2", weigh around 260 pounds, and have good or great speed. Linebackers will often be tasked with coverage short to intermediate routes, so having good hands for making interceptions is also important. The Middle Linebacker or MLB is considered to be the Quarterback of the Defense, calling out the Defensive plays and assigning coverage and blocking assignments. The Weakside or Will Linebacker is usually most responsible for coverage, and should be the fastest Linebacker. More on this in a minute. The Strongside or Sam Linebacker is usually most responsible for making tackles on ballcarriers. They are usually a little larger than the other two. 3-4 In this formation, The Defensive Ends should act similarly to the Defensive Ends in a 4-3. They are trying to swallow blockers and get after the passer. In the middle is the Nosetackle or NT. This guy's primary responsibility is to hold one or two lineman in place and not allow them to open holes for a ball carrier or block anyone trying to sack the Quarterback. The Linebackers are usually larger than the backers in the 4-3. They are the primary pass rushers, attempting to get to the Quarterback on passing plays. They should also be good at "wrap-up" tackling, literally wrapping their arms around players and pulling them to the ground. Strength is a very important consideration. Now, there are two basic coverage schemes which can also have a big factor on the physical characteristics of the players. These are Man Coverage and Zone Coverage. Man Coverage In Man, the Defensive Backs cover the wide receivers man-on-man, following them in their routes and trying to discourage the Quarterback from throwing to the receivers. If a pass is thrown, they must either knock the ball down, tackle the wide receiver, or make an interception. In this scheme, tall, fast DBs are needed. The Linebackers pick up any Tightends, Runningbacks or Receivers running in the middle of the field. Zone Coverage The most popular Zone Coverage scheme in the past 15 or so years is the Tampa 2 or Cover 2 scheme. The two safeties stay deep, covering the down the field routes. the Cornerbacks are tasked with covering the short or intermediate routes, depending on the playcall. The Linebackers cover the middle of the field. Derrick Brooks helped define what the Weakside Linebacker does in the Tampa 2. Here's his wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Brooks The idea of Zone Coverage is a Defensive player stands in one spot and covers their "zone". Theoretically, this will help bait the quarterback into throwing passes he thinks he can make, but the fast DBs will make a play on the ball. Also, since the Quarterback must take more time to make a decision, the Defensive Line has more time to fight through blocks and get a sack or disrupt the Quarterback. Smaller, faster DBs are the bread and butter of Zone Coverage. Ronde Barber is a good indication of the physical type needed: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=1260 I should add there are also Cover 1, Cover 3 and Cover 4 schemes which can effect things. Please understand that this is the most basic breakdown I could do and there are numerous hybrids, exceptions and other things that must be taken into consideration from team to team, year to year, and even play to play. I hope it helps to answer your question. WombBroom fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 05:13
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WombBroom posted:Please understand that this is the most basic breakdown I could do and there are numerous hybrids, exceptions and other things that must be taken into consideration from team to team, year to year, and even play to play. I hope it helps to answer your question.
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Jul 6, 2010 05:25
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When talking about defensive line players and "quick burst" a good example is this sports science video on Suh. He reacts to the snap (trigger) in 26 hundredths of a second and he hits his top speed of 13.5 mph in 1.3 seconds after six yards. He's also 307lbs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBNo1jj1h54 Now compare that to Jahvid Best, UCal's running back. Incredibly fast, in track he'd be a star athlete. He hits 18mph but it's after 2.7 seconds, he hits 10 yards after 1.7 seconds. So, by my fuzy math, his burst is about equal to Suh's but he weighs about a hundred pounds less. So that's what they mean by burst. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6M1jSZcto
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Jul 6, 2010 05:45
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WombBroom posted:Zone Coverage When you hear an announcer talk about "Cover x" he's referring to the defense and how many "deep" defenders there are, or how many defensive backs there are whose responsibilities are to play zone coverage. Cover 2 for example refers to two deep defensive backs (usually the strongside safety and free safety) splitting the field into 2 halves and being responsible for any balls thrown toward their half of the field. Cover 1 refers to 1 defensive back playing deep covering the entire field and playing "center field", Cover 3 will usually refer to a third defensive back helping split the responsibilities of the coverage shell. In a pure coverage shell, all defensive backs and linebackers will be playing zone defense and not have a true "man" or person to guard. When you hear an announcer talk about "nickel" and "dime" defenses or "nickelbacks" or "dimebacks" they're not talking about lovely bands or the dead guitarist of Pantera, they're referring to a modified defense, or a "package". Example: a true sure to poo poo 4-3 defense will have 4 defensivebacks with certain responsibilities. in a "Nickel" defense, one of those linebackers or defensive lineman will sub out and a 5th defensive back or the "nickelback" will come in to help cover receivers. With as much passing as there in the NCAA and NFL, these nickelbacks are often counted on to cover receivers as much as if not more than their 4-3 base counterparts. Therefore, in the modified "Nickel" package, you'll see 4 defensive lineman, 2 linebackers, and 5 defensive backs. The dime package just adds another defensive back to help cover receivers so you'll probably see 4 lineman, 1 linebacker, and 6 defensive backs. Is there a program that helps you write up plays on line so I can draw out some sample defenses? it would also save me some time and carpal tunnel color fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 06:12
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color posted:In the Tampa 2, Brooks played the "mike" or middle backer in the Tampa 2 who dropped into coverage regularly to protect the intermediate middle of the field. No offense, but I am a Tampa Bay fan and have been my whole life. Derrick Brooks was the weakside linebacker. quote:Derrick Brooks was the perfect weakside linebacker for Tony Dungy's defense: fast, agile and complete. He could roam from sideline to sideline to cut off the run, and move just as fluidly when dropping into pass coverage. He was a great student, too. Perfect. Link: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2010-01-10-all-decade-olbs-derrick-brooks_N.htm I'm not aware of any programs that help you draw up defenses, but I'm trying to find a way to grab some screenshots of Madden '08 to use as teaching tools.
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Jul 6, 2010 06:44
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WombBroom posted:I'm not aware of any programs that help you draw up defenses, but I'm trying to find a way to grab some screenshots of Madden '08 to use as teaching tools. I think Playmaker has a free demo that lets you draw, although I haven't used it in many years. There's a bunch of video editing/scouting suites that have play drawing capabilities but they're obviously a bunch of money. Some people just use Paintshop, that works too.
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Jul 6, 2010 07:20
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WombBroom posted:position - stat analysis Will my initial question was asking something different, this is really helpful. The more info the better.
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Jul 6, 2010 09:51
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Scotty a really good way to get to know the individual players other than Madden is to get into fantasy football. Not only does it force you to pay attention to the rising and falling stars of the NFL but it also gives you something else to cheer for during Sundays. I run a league with a few Aussie mates, a German and two Canadians that might have a spot for you. Some of the most exciting games for me last season were games in which the team I support was not even playing. That said, I support the Skins so its kind of understandable. As for picking a team I would suggest you stay away from the big winning franchises of the last decade such as the Patriots, Colts or Steelers. Teams that have just undergone radical overhalls might be a good idea. Seattle, Denver, Oakland, Washington and a few others have all undergone some radical changes recently. Captain Satire fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 10:50
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Captain Satire posted:Scotty a really good way to get to know the individual players other than Madden is to get into fantasy football. Not only does it force you to pay attention to the rising and falling stars of the NFL but it also gives you something else to cheer for during Sundays. The redskins in particular are a good bet to see a marked improvement in their on the field performance.
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Jul 6, 2010 11:18
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Tahm Bwady posted:The Dolphins and the Texans are the two teams I would pick if I was just now getting in football. Both are really talented and definitely on their way up. Both have really awsome exciting offenses. In fact, the Texans are my secret 2nd team. I'm biased as a Texans fan, but this is true. The Texans are perfect at the moment because nobody will accuse you of being a bandwagon fan and the team is slowly but surely on it's way up. You were already in Texas, sc0tty, just pretend the Cowboys gear was a mistake.
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Jul 6, 2010 16:52
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Arschlochkind posted:I'm biased as a Texans fan, but this is true. The Texans are perfect at the moment because nobody will accuse you of being a bandwagon fan and the team is slowly but surely on it's way up. You were already in Texas, sc0tty, just pretend the Cowboys gear was a mistake. As a Texans fan I agree- they're an exciting team, finding both spectacular ways to win AND lose, and they're new/not ESPN overhyped enough to where you can adopt them without looking like some bandwagon fan :3. Plus Andre Johnson is ridiculously amazingly awesome double-great.
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Jul 6, 2010 17:55
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Arschlochkind posted:I'm biased as a Texans fan, but this is true. The Texans are perfect at the moment because nobody will accuse you of being a bandwagon fan and the team is slowly but surely on it's way up. You were already in Texas, sc0tty, just pretend the Cowboys gear was a mistake. I agree. As my avatar suggests, I'm a Steelers fan but my #2's at the moment are Houston and Carolina. Both are good options to get on board with now if you dont wanna look like a bandwagon fan.
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Jul 6, 2010 18:00
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Just be ready for crushing depression when the Texans go 1-5 in their division again. While I'm at it, might as well write up a quick post on one thing I do understand. The NFL Scheduling Formula Now that the NFL has a neat and tidy 32 teams split into 2 conferences with 4 divisions of 4 teams each, scheduling is done by a nice, balanced, predictable formula. Wikipedia has a pretty good write up on it but I'll go over most of it here so we have more info in the thread. Each team plays 16 games in the regular season, and they break down like this:
All that together adds up to 8 home games, and 8 away games. How they determine who is home and who is away is a little trickier, though they tend to basically alternate home/away based on the last time you played those opponents but there is a bit of leeway taken in order to reduce East-to-West Coast (and vice-versa) travel to make sure teams aren't getting worn out from travel during the season.
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Jul 6, 2010 21:14
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WombBroom posted:No offense, but I am a Tampa Bay fan and have been my whole life. Derrick Brooks was the weakside linebacker. wow that's completely my fault my mistake who was the MLB who had a monster '02 season when you won it all?
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Jul 6, 2010 21:14
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color posted:wow that's completely my fault my mistake who was the MLB who had a monster '02 season when you won it all? Shelton Quarles? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/tam/2002.htm Didn't have a monster season though. Are you thinking of Simeon Rice (DE) who had 15.5 sacks, a pick, and a safety that season?
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Jul 6, 2010 21:17
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I like making dumb lists, so I've broken down the league into a few categories for someone who wants to pick a team to root for. 1. The Up and Comers It's fun to start following a team who isn't terrible, but still has some improvements to make. When you invest a little time in watching your team grow, it makes it that much more satisfying when they get a major win. This might also be a team who has been enjoying success for the last few years after decades of despair.
New Orleans Saints San Diego Chargers Cincinnati Bengals Tennessee Titans 2. The Underdogs Ok, maybe you'd rather pick a team with even farther to go? You probably liked the beginnings of sports movies like Little Giants when the characters all still suck, and then you get kinda bored when they start clicking as a team 45 minutes in. That's fine though, the NFL has plenty of fixer-uppers with nowhere to go but up!
Buffalo Bills Tampa Bay Buccaneers Detroit Lions St. Louis Rams Jacksonville Jaguars Seattle Seahawks Cleveland Browns 3. The Villains All the girls love a bad boy. You might like rooting for a team that most everyone else loves to hate.
New York Jets Dallas Cowboys Oakland Raiders Philadelphia Eagles Atlanta Falcons 4. The Superstars You may get called a bandwagoner by some, but you'll always enjoy watching your dominant, consistently solid team rack up wins, and usually hit the playoffs.
Green Bay Packers Pittsburgh Steelers Indianapolis Colts Baltimore Ravens Doppelganger fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jul 7, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 22:20
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Doppelganger posted:I like making dumb lists, so I've broken down the league into a few categories for someone who wants to pick a team to root for. Is this an all-time list, last 10 years, what to expect this year? I'm trying to figure out how the Saints at up and comers while the Ravens are superstars 
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Jul 6, 2010 22:25
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Doppelganger posted:I like making dumb lists, so I've broken down the league into a few categories for someone who wants to pick a team to root for. Why does everyone love to hate the Eagles, I am not an Eagles fan (or a fan of any of those teams), but that is the only one that does not make sense to me. I thought the fans were disliked, not the team. Also, I am not sure I would include the Steelers on the superstar list anymore.
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Jul 6, 2010 22:28
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You are receiving this broadcast as a dream...We are transmitting from the year one nine... nine nine ...You are receiving this broadcast in order t
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Doppelganger posted:I like making dumb lists, so I've broken down the league into a few categories for someone who wants to pick a team to root for. All the teams not included  I guess? Or did you accidentally leave some off?
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Jul 6, 2010 22:31
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Captain Satire posted:Scotty a really good way to get to know the individual players other than Madden is to get into fantasy football. Not only does it force you to pay attention to the rising and falling stars of the NFL but it also gives you something else to cheer for during Sundays. I would definetly be keen on Fantasy Football. It kept my interest in the NBA and I'm sure it would do the same. e: Also, as for choosing a team, after playing some madden and watching some highlights, I definitely prefer a strong running game over the the passing game. Could someone give a quick run-through of which teams favor passing versus running? sc0tty fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 22:39
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sc0tty posted:e: Also, as for choosing a team, after playing some madden and watching some highlights, I definitely prefer a strong running game over the the passing game. Could someone give a quick run-through of which teams favor passing versus running? A: All of them. Very, very few NFL teams rush for more yards than they pass. Last year only one team did, the NY Jets. The top 5 teams in rush yards/gm last year were: Ny Jets Carolina Panthers Tennessee Titans Miami Dolphins Baltimore Ravens adaz fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 22:46
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sc0tty posted:I would definetly be keen on Fantasy Football. It kept my interest in the NBA and I'm sure it would do the same. Run-first teams are becoming rarer and rarer, but if thats your thing then I guess the Jets, Ravens or Titans are your team
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Jul 6, 2010 22:47
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The Jets have future Hall of Famer Shonn Greene, so pick them (the Panthers also fit what you're looking for very well, and probably will for quite awhile with a good young line and young backs). But yeah, it's rapidly becoming a passing league.
MourningView fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 22:48
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Doppelganger posted:I like making dumb lists, so I've broken down the league into a few categories for someone who wants to pick a team to root for. Hey what the gently caress? Arizona needs all the fans they can get!
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Jul 6, 2010 22:50
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adaz posted:A: All of them. Very, very few NFL teams rush for more yards than they pass. Last year only one team did, the NY Jets. The top 5 teams in rush yards/gm last year were: Do you mean in terms of yardage gained? Carolina made way more rushing attempts than passing attempts.
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Jul 6, 2010 22:53
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Regnevelc posted:Hey what the gently caress? Arizona needs all the fans they can get! Why do you want others to suffer, Reg? 
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Jul 6, 2010 22:54
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OhSnapGangsta posted:Do you mean in terms of yardage gained? Carolina made way more rushing attempts than passing attempts. Yeah in terms of yardage gained. In terms of attempts about 8 teams (it looks like) had more rushing attempts than passing attempts.
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Jul 6, 2010 22:57
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A look at the bowl system and conferences of the Football Bowl Subdivision: The Football Subdivision is controlled by the almighty Bowl Championship Series, basically a cartel made of the presidents of the schools in the six major conferences, the BCS corporate steering committee, and executives of the ESPN television network. The BCS determines access to the five top postseason bowls -      Rose Bowl - Pasadena, CA. It's the first bowl, played in the afternoon on January 1. Traditionally the winner of the Pac-10 Conference vs the winner of the Big 10 Conference. Will take the winner of a non-BCS conference if the Big 10 or Pac-10 team makes the BCS National Championship. Fiesta Bowl - Glendale/Phoenix, AZ. Usually played on the evening of January 1 but has moved down the calendar to get a prime time network spot. A newer bowl grown out of the WAC's lack of bowl tie-in but quickly gained prominence. Usually takes the winner of the Big 12 Conference and another selection among available teams (called an at-large), but now seems to take the winner of a non-BCS conference, or two non-BCS conference schools like it did last year. Sugar Bowl - New Orleans, LA. The second bowl, usually played on January 1 but as late as the 4th. Usually takes the winner of the Southeast Conference and an at-large. Orange Bowl - Miami Gardens/Miami, FL. First played in 1935. Takes the winner of the Atlantic Coast Conference vs an at-large. BCS National Championship - Rotates among the sites of the BCS bowls. Matches the two top-ranked teams in the BCS poll for a de-facto college football championship game, like a college version of the Super Bowl. These are the FBS conferences: - Major Conferences, AKA Auto-Qualifying ("AQ") Conferences, AKA BCS Conferences The top six conferences control most of the money, and dominate the standings, polls, and prestige of FBS.  Atlantic Coast Conference: A mixture of fairly high-end academic schools along the eastern seaboard. Has potent football programs but is generally more famous for basketball.  Southeast Conference: Generally considered the best football conference. Comprised of extremely large state schools (and private Vanderbilt) in the Deep South. Their stadiums are large, their fans are crazy, their programs are rich and deep and powerful, and their fans on SA can be found in BYOB.  Big Ten Conference: Eleven (soon twelve) schools in the northern states. The Big Ten was the first athletic conference and all ten are extremely strong academic schools. The US's two largest stadiums belong to the Big Ten - Michigan Stadium and Penn State University's Beaver Stadium. Both seat somewhere over 110,000.  Big East Conference: The Big East is a 16 school conference for basketball and eight for football in the eastern and northern states. It is the smallest of the six BCS conferences and it is regularly mentioned in conference realignment doomsday scenarios.  Big 12 Conference: The Big 12 is located in the Midwest and Texas. It stands at 12 schools currently, but is losing two members over the next two years. The conference is operationally controlled by two titanic programs - the University of Texas at Austin and University of Oklahoma.  Pacific 10 Conference: Located along the Pacific Seaboard and Arizona, but is expanding to include the Universities of Utah and Colorado. Generally strong academic schools, left-leaning, but resistant to change. Has not really embraced the BCS. This conference was dominated by the University of Southern California for years, but with sanctions and other teams stepping up this looks to be coming to an end. - Mid-Major Conferences, AKA Non-Autoqualifying (Non-AQ), AKA Non-BCS Conferences The next five conferences put together make less money than a single BCS conference. Mostly these schools have small-time football program, or new programs, or are in some cases keep football teams to satisfy Title IX requirements. However, these conferences do hold serious teams who hold their weight against the big boys with no trouble.  Mountain West Conference: The Mountain West is considered the top non-BCS conference. Its programs split off from the Western Athletic Conference about ten years ago to build their own base. They have done an extremely good job doing so, and three teams have developed into regulars in the Top 25. In fact, you can find Texas Christian University and newcomer Boise State University regularly in the Top Ten. The MWC (with Boise State) has three BCS bowl appearances to its credit with two wins. It is currently on track to become a BCS Conference for the 2013 season.  Western Athletic Conference: The WAC was created in the 60s for schools in the Western and Rocky Mountain States with growing populations and programs. Its power peaked in the 80s with champions in football and basketball, but their influence has waned as time wears on. The WAC has been almost totally dominated by Boise State University in the last decade (seven championships in ten years), but it is moving to the Mountain West in 2011. The remaining members are 0-1 in BCS bowls.  Conference USA: Conference USA is spread out regionally from eastern North Carolina to west Texas. CUSA used to be the best non-BCS conferences, but the Big East stole most of its power in 2005 when the ACC raided the Big East for members. The remaining members have had little luck establishing themselves nationwide but once in a while a CUSA team climbs the polls.  Mid American Conference: Established among the smaller schools in the Northern states and shares footprint with the Big Ten. These schools play in the shadow of their Big Ten neighbors and thus have problems generating interest; however they are much too good to drop down to the Championship Subdivision. The MAC's schools have sent some good quarterbacks to the pros, most notably Ben Roethlisberger from Miami University (the one in Ohio).  Sun Belt Conference: The Sun Belt is the newest football conference, formed in the last decade. Its teams are mostly new programs to Division I looking to get in on the money. It's generally considered the weakest of the FBS conferences. Because of the newness of the programs, or lack of finances involved, the conference's teams are known best for renting themselves out to get beat down by BCS conference schools (mostly the SEC). Independents: Additionally, three schools play without being in a conference - the United States Military Academy (plays as Army), the United States Naval Academy (plays as Navy), and Notre Dame University. These three schools do not have the benefit of eight conference games, though all have regularly scheduled games they play every year - such as the Army-Navy game. Notre Dame enjoys a special status generally equal to that of a BCS conference school and has a unique television deal with the NBC television network to broadcast its games nationwide. dirty shrimp money fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jul 6, 2010 |
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Jul 6, 2010 23:42
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korranus posted:
Well, that's just mean, bro.
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Jul 6, 2010 23:44
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Detergent posted:Well, that's just mean, bro. What's mean was closing that thread
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Jul 6, 2010 23:47
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Doppelganger posted:
Everyone hates the Steelers.
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Jul 6, 2010 23:55
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