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baquerd posted:The US problem is a combination of poorly supervised violent inmates, unsympathetic guards, a strict internal prohibition about telling the guards when it does happen, removal of normal outlets of sexual expression or even recreational activities, and gang related activity. There is lots of times and places you get a lot of bad dudes together in one place, it doesn't seem like them all raping each other is exactly a natural consequence of that. I mean three of your reasons come down to 'no one is stopping them' and it's not really the case that in other countries there is a bunch of people straining to all rape each other but are being stopped. If you took a bunch of prisoners in other countries and had the guards close their eyes and turn around it wouldn't turn instantly to rapefest and I think most of the inmates would be a little weirded out by the idea it might. Why it happens here? I don't really know, but it's not just normal.
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Jul 30, 2010 17:37
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Farking Bastage posted:Incoming You're just looking at it the wrong way. It can be fun if you imagine yourself as the clever hacker protagonist of a cyberpunk novel  It is true that today there are more cameras than ever, but that goes both ways. If I see a police officer beating someone unnecessarily I can pull out my phone and record him in HD, then upload the video to youtube over 3g before he can even ask me to stop. Youtube then updates my Twitter and Facebook accounts automatically. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 19:09 on Jul 30, 2010 |
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Jul 30, 2010 19:06
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Certain areas are now making it an arrest-able offense to videotape police. 
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Jul 30, 2010 19:42
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mew force shoelace posted:There is lots of times and places you get a lot of bad dudes together in one place, it doesn't seem like them all raping each other is exactly a natural consequence of that. I mean three of your reasons come down to 'no one is stopping them' and it's not really the case that in other countries there is a bunch of people straining to all rape each other but are being stopped. If you took a bunch of prisoners in other countries and had the guards close their eyes and turn around it wouldn't turn instantly to rapefest and I think most of the inmates would be a little weirded out by the idea it might. I think a large part is because it's implicitly encouraged, inside and outside. Most of us don't know anything about prison culture except for rape. I'm sure there are plenty of inmates who rape because that's what American culture tells them to do. Then, there are guards who encourage it in the same way they encourage gangs. It keeps everyone divided. It keeps everyone scared.
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Jul 30, 2010 19:45
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Rutibex posted:You're just looking at it the wrong way. It can be fun if you imagine yourself as the clever hacker protagonist of a cyberpunk novel Then the police come raid your house, steal your computers and do their damnedest to send you to prison for years.
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Jul 30, 2010 21:12
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Farking Bastage posted:Certain areas are now making it an arrest-able offense to videotape police. In Massachusetts you can be arrested for videotaping police because the audio portion of the recording constitutes surreptitious eavesdropping without consent. While technically accurate, it is a ridiculous stretch of the law and it is only ever used to prosecute civilians taping the police.
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Jul 30, 2010 21:15
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Whisker Biscuit posted:Then the police come raid your house, steal your computers and do their damnedest to send you to prison for years. Your a cyberpunk protagonist! You live in an abandoned access tunnel with internet "borrowed" using a series of well hidden mesh wifi repeaters from a local bar. You do all your transactions online with prepaid disposable credit cards bought with cash. You make money writing essays for high school students online and selling crap you find in local flea markets on eBay  Yeah the future is going to be a bleak surveillance dystopia, but you have to go at it like a Hiroaki Protagonist not a Winston Smith.
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Jul 30, 2010 22:57
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mew force shoelace posted:To soft to do what? behind harder doesn't actually reduce crime and studies show that. Prison should never be appealing, in any situation.
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Jul 31, 2010 23:11
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angry armadillo posted:Too soft in that you hear stories about cons saying 'yeah i just steal stuff in winter because I'm not sure where I will be staying, it will be warmer in prison so I'll do something to go there for a bit' Surely the solution is to make sure these people have somewhere to live in the winter, not hit them with sticks or whatever in prison to make it less 'appealing'.
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Jul 31, 2010 23:35
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angry armadillo posted:Too soft in that you hear stories about cons saying 'yeah i just steal stuff in winter because I'm not sure where I will be staying, it will be warmer in prison so I'll do something to go there for a bit' This has to be a case of "didn't think through what your saying before posting" I can't imagine homeless people dieing of exposure is something so precious to our society we have to take steps to avoid losing it!
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Aug 1, 2010 00:06
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angry armadillo posted:Too soft in that you hear stories about cons saying 'yeah i just steal stuff in winter because I'm not sure where I will be staying, it will be warmer in prison so I'll do something to go there for a bit' So basically, being fed, having shelter and being warm is too desireable? Or are you saying prison should offset the good things with bad things, ie enforced prison rape and beatings?
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Aug 1, 2010 00:21
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angry armadillo posted:Too soft in that you hear stories about cons saying 'yeah i just steal stuff in winter because I'm not sure where I will be staying, it will be warmer in prison so I'll do something to go there for a bit'
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Aug 1, 2010 01:14
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There are charities that will help you find someone to live, for example https://www.shelter.org.uk For me, people wanting to go to prison before looking for help as above means something isn't right edit: s0meb0dy0 - i work in one, i have first hand experience of cons saying they do! But's that's my point, nuts isn't it?
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Aug 1, 2010 01:16
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angry armadillo posted:There are charities that will help you find someone to live, for example https://www.shelter.org.uk What's nuts is that you actually don't understand that good rehabilitation would mean even those who only steal to get convicted would be able to go out and become productive members of society when they get out. Certainly better than deciding not to feed or shelter convicts.
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Aug 1, 2010 01:30
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21stCentury posted:What's nuts is that you actually don't understand that good rehabilitation would mean even those who only steal to get convicted would be able to go out and become productive members of society when they get out. I didn't ever say don't feed or shelter convicts. I think my argument comes down to freedom > shelter, whereas you think the opposite. You have a lot of faith in rehabilitation to think that someone who opts to commit crimes and opts to go to prison could come out wanting to contribute to society.
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Aug 1, 2010 01:58
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angry armadillo posted:You have a lot of faith in rehabilitation to think that someone who opts to commit crimes and opts to go to prison could come out wanting to contribute to society. How does not letting them in prison because they have no home and it's winter help anything? Except maybe that they die and you don't have to worry about them anymore? I mean how drat bad do you want prison to be so that it can be worse than loving freezing to death?
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Aug 1, 2010 02:30
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The New Black posted:To my mind, all this is basically the inevitable result of running prisons for profit, and I can't see any way of improving it beyond nationalising all the prisons. The other trouble is that the default position of a huge number of Americans is 'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime' - can you imagine the response from the right if Obama tried to improve prison conditions? They literally think that the second you break the law you immediately waive any and all basic human rights. They almost seem to consider getting repeatedly anally raped to be part of the punishment (at least, this is my impression from US popular culture). Yes and no. It is the result of running prisons for profit but we have to be clear about what that means. Like, it's obviously not just banal corporate evil at the heart of this. The world's CEOs didn't just get together and say "we're going to get 3 strikes laws passed so we can exploit the prison system! Muahaha!" You can't really explain overcrowding, for example, as a cost-cutting measure to maximize the number of prisoners held with the smallest amount of prison capital. It's not the same thing as cramming as many employees into small cubicles as possible to reduce overhead, because you still have to explain why we have so drat many prisoners to begin with. The problem is also not a matter of prison labor being cheap and therefore useful to corporate America, putting pressure on the state to imprison more people and treat them more brutally or something, which I think is maybe it a bit overemphasized as far as critiques of the prison system go (the usual technique is to point out the relationship between slavery and the modern prison system and that's just a little tenuous I think). It just doesn't make sense that we'd need prison labor when third-world labor is just as cheap and effective and even more disciplined, and except in a few industries immune to criticism from social activists in American political discourse. Sure, there a few isolated areas that you can't move the labor overseas because it has to be done here and so prison labor is a bit more appealing (sorting through hazardous waste, for example, and more heinously BP's use of prisoners to clean up the oil spill). But honestly, the last number I heard was like under a 200,000 prisoners actually employed in this fashion (i.e., in the private sector only) which is really a drop in the bucket compared to third-world labor and even that has resulted in expensive PR backlash at times, as was the case with Walmart back in '06. And third-world labor is much less of a lawsuit magnet, limited as prisoners rights may be. It's furthermore not clear that outlawing the privatization of prisons, which some states have apparently done, will help improve conditions overall--many public prisons are just as terrible. Also, I'm not an expert on the prison industry but I imagine you still have to contract out certain services like food and healthcare and its pretty much always a poo poo show from there, quality-wise. So privatization isn't really the whole story, I don't think. Again, you can kind of explain certain things here and there as basic moral hazards that pop up whenever there's a private industry where there shouldn't be (healthcare, military). But the big thing that we can't explain within that kind of framework is the ridiculous number of prisoners, many of whom are just of no obvious benefit to the private sector in terms of actual dollars. And I think it sounds a bit too conspiratorial to suggest that this is some kind of concerted effort on behalf of the corporate sector to get more prisoners. Like it's just too complex and too big to happen as some kind of scheme, and it happened alongside a ton of other major changes in the justice system as a whole (policing in particular). Three strikes laws, mandatory minimums, drug wars and so fourth are all incidentally good for businesses but I think putting that kind of apparatus in place had to have happened organically and outside of any particular lobby. But I do think you're essentially right that the profit motive is at the heart of this. It's just a little more abstract than lobbying and collusion and the prison industrial complex. It's more about how you deal with people that can't be included in the capitalist system. You have to find a way to sort of waste their productive capacity because the system can't sustain them, and war and prisons are just a couple of the way we have found to do that. You can blow a ton of public dollars on social welfare programs and lift up the lower classes, but it is, in fact, much more profitable to send to them to prison and its much more stable socially. What's happening with prisons is that it's an entire industry centered around wasting production, wasting human potential, because too much production exacerbates problems organic to a capitalist system and will eventually tank the economy. So really its just the natural consequence of growing wealth disparity and increasing need to discipline the working class. And I again I want to stress that I don't think this is some kind of grand conspiracy--it's not the aristocracy getting together and twirling mustaches and saying "how can we gently caress over the poor?". But it is a natural consequence of having an extreme wealth gap, of which crime is an obvious symptom, and needing a way to keep people on the wrong side of that gap from threatening those on the right side.
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Aug 1, 2010 03:03
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angry armadillo posted:I think my argument comes down to freedom > shelter, whereas you think the opposite. I think very few people who are in danger of freezing to death on the street would think "freedom > shelter". Your viewpoint is privileged and unrealistic.
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Aug 1, 2010 03:03
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Woozy posted:Yes and no. It is the result of running prisons for profit but we have to be clear about what that means. Look at this graph and try to guess the exact year the deregulation that lead to privatized prisons happened:  It's not a ethereal loose connection like your making it sound.
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Aug 1, 2010 03:13
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Uh, a million other things happened in the late 70s and early 80s, you know, and they could all be (and probably are) relevant. Union crackdowns, economic recession, Paul Volcker and disciplining labor, war on drugs. It makes a lot more sense to see the state of prisons as a consequence of a larger state of affairs than just someone getting the bright idea to privatize prisons and an industry erupting overnight that somehow had enough power to inflict massive, sweeping changes on the justice system just to make a buck.
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Aug 1, 2010 03:24
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angry armadillo posted:I didn't ever say don't feed or shelter convicts. There aren't a lot of ways to make prison seem worse than being homeless during winter. My point is, with good enough rehabilitation, everyone would have the tools needed to get gainful employment, somewhere to live and the will to keep living within the law.
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Aug 1, 2010 03:57
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angry armadillo posted:I didn't ever say don't feed or shelter convicts. If people are committing crimes to go to prison, then it seems like it would be cheaper all around to just pay them to not commit crimes. Prison-level accommodations would be quite cheap if we didn't need to worry about the guards and security and stuff. We could probably even find some work for these people to do. We could even set it up like the army where people go in and get their needs more or less taken care of. Except, instead of blowing stuff up, they'd be doing infrastructure-development and renewal projects.
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Aug 1, 2010 04:06
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mew force shoelace posted:Look at this graph and try to guess the exact year the deregulation that lead to privatized prisons happened:  Look at this graph and see its relation to the war on drugs. edit: Mine goes to 2008 and looks nicer.  yoslow fucked around with this message at 09:01 on Aug 1, 2010 |
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Aug 1, 2010 08:58
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Dammit Who? posted:I think very few people who are in danger of freezing to death on the street would think "freedom > shelter". Your viewpoint is privileged and unrealistic. I've also go there every day too which is a bit off putting!
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Aug 1, 2010 09:30
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mew force shoelace posted:There is lots of times and places you get a lot of bad dudes together in one place, it doesn't seem like them all raping each other is exactly a natural consequence of that. I mean three of your reasons come down to 'no one is stopping them' and it's not really the case that in other countries there is a bunch of people straining to all rape each other but are being stopped. If you took a bunch of prisoners in other countries and had the guards close their eyes and turn around it wouldn't turn instantly to rapefest and I think most of the inmates would be a little weirded out by the idea it might. Well, no, it wouldn't happen immediately, just like if you suddenly magiced away law enforcement and the military we wouldn't suddenly return to a state of nature - creating an environment where violence/gang behaviour/etc. is prevented will inevitably have the result of getting people more used to not doing those things. Also, high levels of prison rape don't necessarily require that all or even a majority of prisoners are rapists. Or to put it another way, if rape laws were suddenly repealed, I think there's no doubt there would be a big increase in the number of rapes, so is it really surprising that this is the case when you effectively do this in prison, which after all has a lot more people who are inclined to rape?
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Aug 1, 2010 11:54
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mew force shoelace posted:There is lots of times and places you get a lot of bad dudes together in one place, it doesn't seem like them all raping each other is exactly a natural consequence of that. I mean three of your reasons come down to 'no one is stopping them' and it's not really the case that in other countries there is a bunch of people straining to all rape each other but are being stopped. If you took a bunch of prisoners in other countries and had the guards close their eyes and turn around it wouldn't turn instantly to rapefest and I think most of the inmates would be a little weirded out by the idea it might. My initial hunch is that this is not about "a lot of bad dudes" but rather "some bad dudes, some not so bad". The U.S. locks up a shitload of non-violent offenders, but this started taking place in a much bigger way after prison administration deliberately established an environment of predation and violence between inmates. So it sounds to me like they created a monster one year and then after it matured for a decade they started feeding it frail, more or less defenseless victims as a consequence of the war on drugs. Prison is a horrible, lovely place in most of the world, but if you want to explain the unique U.S. horror show of rape and violence I think a good place to start is California in the late 60s up through Attica and asking what happens when you take that situation and pair it with a massive influx of non-violent offenders in the 80s.
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Aug 1, 2010 12:30
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:so is it really surprising that this is the case when you effectively do this in prison, which after all has a lot more people who are inclined to rape? It *IS* surprising because every country has prisons but it's not something that happens to any other system as far as I can tell. It's not a natural inevitable consequence, it's just something America accepts for some reason.
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Aug 1, 2010 13:40
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mew force shoelace posted:It *IS* surprising because every country has prisons but it's not something that happens to any other system as far as I can tell. It's not a natural inevitable consequence, it's just something America accepts for some reason. It's not at all surprising when the people in charge of the justice and prison systems tend to be the same people who think sexual urges are something you just ignore so providing prisoners any outlet is coddling them. They also tend to be the same people who think you can beat the gay out of your homo sons because again, sexual urges are completely controllable. This mentality is encouraged by pretty much every level of society, if you pay attention to any area that elects sheriffs/chiefs of police, judges, DA's, whatever the ones that win are not the ones who will make sure people in prison are treated right and are not raped, the ones who win are the ones who scream about how much they are going to make those fuckers PAY for what they've done. Every single person who has not personally or had a close friend ground up in the system encourages it. As has been said a million times, prison rape is actually viewed as a consequence of breaking the law and everyone has their own personal lists of crimes that well we can't change that now can we? Read a weed or drug thread for when meth comes up. Almost everyone thinks it should stay right where it is legally and if any of these same people claim they didn't know prison rape is a problem they are lying through their teeth. So essentially most people believe using meth deserves being repeatedly and violently raped, sometimes to the point where the flesh of you anus and colon are so torn you are incontinent for the rest of your life. Because hey, he might have gotten hooked on meth! That shits really bad guys. In case I haven't been clear: Nobody gives a poo poo unless it happens to them or their friends/family.
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Aug 1, 2010 17:19
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Toasticle posted:Every single person who has not personally or had a close friend ground up in the system encourages it. Um, not really. I don't know anyone in prison myself, but I've worked with the ACLU on prisoner rights cases. But you're right about most of the rest. The attitude among far too many people seems to be "well, if the prisoners hadn't committed a crime, they wouldn't be in that position," without any thought about the ethics of that stance, the appropriateness of the punishment, or even the likely effect of permitting abuse on the possibility of rehabilitation.
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Aug 1, 2010 17:35
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Toasticle posted:In case I haven't been clear: Nobody gives a poo poo unless it happens to them or their friends/family. Well, i give a poo poo and I don't know anyone who's ever had a real brush with the law. I have this thread to thank for that. I think it goes to show that while very few people give a poo poo, it's not impossible to change minds.
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Aug 1, 2010 18:02
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You guys should look at prison health care as well. It's largely run by for profit organizations and there are some pretty horrifying stories that I've seen come out of my state system. The ACLU recently won a class action suit against Wisconsin's prison doctors due to some pretty horrifying situations. http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/women-wisconsin%E2%80%99s-taycheedah-prison-suffer-medical-neglect-and-receive-worse-mental More information on the terrible deal female prisoners get http://www.isiswomen.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=734&Itemid=200 If you can find something on it, look into the case of Michelle Greer. She died of an asthma attack in a prison cafeteria begging prison guards for help while being ignored. Not a lot of information got out about the case because it was settled before it could be brought to trial, but it was pretty viscerally horrifying.
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Aug 1, 2010 18:04
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JudicialRestraints posted:You guys should look at prison health care as well. It's largely run by for profit organizations and there are some pretty horrifying stories that I've seen come out of my state system. The ACLU recently won a class action suit against Wisconsin's prison doctors due to some pretty horrifying situations. Here's a handy little table of federal oversight of California's prison health care services, including which class action lawsuits involved each service and when each service acknowledged Constitutional violations: http://www.cprinc.org/docs/resources/Oversight_20090218_FederalCourt.pdf Also, the ACLU just settled one in Nevada: http://www.aclu.org/prisoners-rights/aclu-agrees-settle-lawsuit-charging-inadequate-medical-care-nevadas-ely-state-priso Sir John Falstaff fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Aug 2, 2010 |
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Aug 1, 2010 18:12
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I defend prison guards from inmate lawsuits as the main component of my job. I can't say all that much about pending cases due to attorney client privilege, but I can give this thread my impressions. 1. At least in my state, the rank and file prison guards really aren't the problem. They avoid getting personally involved with prisoners so most claims of personal dislike/retaliation are unfounded. That said: 2. It's really easy to burn out and a lot of people just don't care. We deal largely with maximum security prisoners and they are sketchy as hell. For every actual claim they file, there are about five where they think they can take advantage of the system to their benefit. Prison guards/health units are so jaded to spurious claims that legitimate ones slip through their fingers. Mix-ups in paperwork get compounded by the general lack of caring until you have people collapsing on the floor of their cells only to be ignored by guards. If anyone has questions I can answer in general terms (although thanks to robust open records laws in my state I can answer more specifically about settled cases).
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Aug 1, 2010 18:28
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JudicialRestraints posted:You guys should look at prison health care as well. Ok. JudicialRestraints posted:asthma attack Pregnant woman in Arpaio's jail beaten in the stomach, causing miscarriage + nearly bleeding to death; denied medical care for 3 weeks (despite doctor orders). They made her wait 3 weeks to have the dead fetus taken out. Pregnant woman in Arpaio's jail denied medical care for 4 hours after complications develop, resulting in death of her baby- and she's not the only one. Oh and the jail staff tried to stop her from getting to see or hold her baby afterwards. Diabetic denied insulin until she died- because she might have been "faking it." Pregnant women sent to private prisons where their newborns are subsequently denied medical treatment after suffering life-threating illness, resulting in permanent injury. Then prison argues they didn't have an obligation to provide treatment. Crohn's disease patient denied care until he nearly died, then gets major surgery without his knowledge or explanation. The $4/day medication to prevent this would have been too expensive. Pregnant women denied medical care, left in pools of their own filth for days, then beaten by guards until the braces are torn off their teeth. Forcible injections of improperly prescribed medications like Haldol & Zyprexa, which is actually a criminal offense. Denied medical care even when inmates have holes in their skulls, or when paraplegics develop bedsores go untreated for a year Penis amputation (along with 6 pounds of flesh removed form groin area) in Washington as a result of failure to treat gangrene Female inmate impregnated by rapist guard, then kicked in the stomach by other guards to cause miscarriage
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Aug 1, 2010 20:37
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HidingFromGoro posted:Ok. DnD/LF/Smart People response: "Fuuuuuuck  people should be rioting in the streets!"  Majority of US public: "Can't do the time, don't do the crime" OR "I don't believe this, there is no way that's real. Police are good people, they wouldn't do that. Why do you hate the police so much?"  OR "Well at least that will never happen to me, that only happens to people who break the law and I would never get in that position in the first place."
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Aug 1, 2010 20:48
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JudicialRestraints posted:I defend prison guards from inmate lawsuits as the main component of my job. I can't say all that much about pending cases due to attorney client privilege, but I can give this thread my impressions. So when these paperwork mix-ups occur do you guys at least count it toward the PLRA exhaustion requirement?
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Aug 1, 2010 20:55
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Fire posted:DnD/LF/Smart People response: "Fuuuuuuck I don't know about you, but I think all 3 of those are easy to refute. "Can't do the time, don't do the crime" -> 8th Amendment, Bill of Rights, Human's rights. All of those point towards stuff like Prison rape, denied healthcare, assault, etc. as being wrong. "I don't believe this, there is no way that's real. Police are good people, they wouldn't do that. Why do you hate the police so much?" -> Police are humans, they're flawed. Point to any police corruption case . "Well at least that will never happen to me, that only happens to people who break the law and I would never get in that position in the first place." -> Point to any wrongful conviction case, the fact that Prosecutors often care about nothing but having a perfect conviction rating or that video by that lawyer about why you shouldn't talk to police because of how the system works. And yet, people don't seem to be willing to change. I think talking about it more can only help. I know I'm getting to my dad about this all.
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Aug 1, 2010 21:16
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21stCentury posted:"Well at least that will never happen to me, that only happens to people who break the law and I would never get in that position in the first place." -> Point to any wrongful conviction case, the fact that Prosecutors often care about nothing but having a perfect conviction rating or that video by that lawyer about why you shouldn't talk to police because of how the system works. It absolutely happens, so no need to link me a counterexample, but in general wrongful convictions are more rarely towards random middle class white people. In that way I think people have a weird "yeah but he was bad anyway" escape clauses in their brain towards people getting wrongfully convicted. A weird racist/classiest "he would have done it except he didn't, who even knows, 'they' are interchangeable" sort of thing when finding a black person or a poverty stricken redneck got sent to jail for something they didn't do. Edit: specifically they have some trait that lets people say "well if they didn't want to be wrongfully convicted they shouldn't have ______"
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Aug 1, 2010 21:23
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mew force shoelace posted:It absolutely happens, so no need to link me a counterexample, but in general wrongful convictions are more rarely towards random middle class white people. In that way I think people have a weird "yeah but he was bad anyway" escape clauses in their brain towards people getting wrongfully convicted. Yeah, you're kinda right... But not everyone who thinks "it'll never happen to me, I follow the law" agree that poor people/black people/hispanic people deserve to be jailed. Those who do are about racism/classism and that's a different issue. Different from Justice, I mean. But yes, Racism/Classism is deeply linked with the mess that's happening. Edit: Still, that video from that lawyer (or was he an ex policeman?) that explains how easy it is to be incriminated/break obscure laws. One of the points to pass through is that most people are guilty of something. Even those in the middle class.
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Aug 1, 2010 21:30
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21stCentury posted:Yeah, you're kinda right... But not everyone who thinks "it'll never happen to me, I follow the law" agree that poor people/black people/hispanic people deserve to be jailed. Those who do are about racism/classism and that's a different issue. Different from Justice, I mean. I don't think it's rational but I think the sense is that people who get wrongly put in jail weren't the nicest people to begin with, and honestly that may well be true. America loves 'any punishment for any crime" in general. So if a drug addict gets thrown in prison for a murder he didn't commit, it's pretty much okay to a lot of people. It's seen as a minor injustice.
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Aug 1, 2010 21:45
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