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dissss posted:Sure 4wd isn't a magic bullet but compare a high power FWD like a Mazdaspeed3 or Focus XR5 to a high powered 4wd like a WRX and see which is more usable. More usable for what? Taking off from a standing stop maybe. I see little evidence that the WRX is any faster than the MS3 around a track. Here's an example: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/09q4/the_lightning_lap_2009-feature/ll1_3a_2009_subaru_impreza_wrx_3e_3_3a16.6_page_4 AWD is just a gimmick so Audi and Subaru can differentiate their higher end offerings while still making cheap FWD mass market cars off the same floor plan.
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Dec 9, 2010 04:52
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Throatwarbler posted:More usable for what? Taking off from a standing stop maybe. I see little evidence that the WRX is any faster than the MS3 around a track. Here's an example: Round a track maybe. On a typical winding road with a less than perfect surface things are quite different. Have you driven both and made your own judgement?
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Dec 9, 2010 05:40
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Throatwarbler posted:More usable for what? Taking off from a standing stop maybe. I see little evidence that the WRX is any faster than the MS3 around a track. Here's an example:
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Dec 9, 2010 05:45
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Throatwarbler posted:AWD is just a gimmick so Audi and Subaru can differentiate their higher end offerings while still making cheap FWD mass market cars off the same floor plan. Snow and bad weather, bad road surface, rallying, and as a driver aid AWD excels. Its a great way to put down monstrous power or get through a monstrous storm. The difference in price between a FWD audi and non-performance AWD Audi isn't that great, and even come in the same models. Subaru hasn't made a FWD from AWD car since 1996 or so, etc.
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Dec 9, 2010 06:58
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dissss posted:Round a track maybe. On a typical winding road with a less than perfect surface things are quite different. *shrug* I make judgments based on evidence. quote:Can you name a single fwd subaru that is currently produced? Really? How about the Impreza, or Exiga, or all of their Kei cars and trucks? Only the biggest and most expensive Subarus (Legacy, Tribeca, Forester, any kind of SUV is a luxury vehicle outside of North America) are AWD only for marketing purposes. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Dec 9, 2010 |
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Dec 9, 2010 06:59
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How many people here are buying a car in Japan? Raise your hand.
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Dec 9, 2010 07:04
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Throatwarbler posted:*shrug* I make judgments based on evidence. hahaha way to completely miss the point you loving spaz, its assumed were talking about cars for the american market in this instance. And if you try to argue we aren't cause you are trying to be difficult, the conversation is framed around the context of awd being useless to americans in day to day use. Subaru's only being awd is a huge selling point for them here in the US. I really dont know why you would bring up japanese models
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Dec 9, 2010 07:06
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The Sicilian posted:hahaha way to completely miss the point you loving spaz, its assumed were talking about cars for the american market in this instance. And if you try to argue we aren't cause you are trying to be difficult, the conversation is framed around the context of awd being useless to americans in day to day use. Subaru's only being awd is a huge selling point for them here in the US. I really dont know why you would bring up japanese models Make your posts longer in the future so I know not to waste my time.
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Dec 9, 2010 07:18
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Baby Hitler posted:The difference in price between a FWD audi and non-performance AWD Audi isn't that great, and even come in the same models. Audi is fairly clever to sell the FWD A4 only with the CVT in NA. The FWD 6sp 2.0t A4 they sell elsewhere posts the same performance figures as the AWD and would probably be faster around a track due to less weight. It's probably not a bad ride since you still get the 5 link front suspension and all that jazz, can't get that on a Jetta.
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Dec 9, 2010 07:31
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As far as being more usable in the real world, it DOES make a difference in quite a few real world situations. This is especially true if you have traction control wrestling the throttle away from you. I love the fact that I can just ACT when I want/need to and not have to worry about sitting still, spinning my wheels or getting halfway out on to the road before traction control decide there was too much throttle input and cut the power. Every day I have to make a left hand turn on to a main road, uphill, with very little visibility in either direction. I can point, shoot, and go at full throttle when I have room without so much as a chirp from the tires. It's nice piece of mind. Honestly, a good AWD system is something I would say makes the most difference in a wide range of situations that you may not really think about normally rather than being quantifiable on the track. Hell, I was having trouble driving my parents 125hp Automatic Vibe in the rain when I borrowed it since I'm used to more traction than I could ever want when pulling out places. Until you drive it day to day for a long basis, it's hard to realize all the situations where you take the traction for granted. Another stupid situation I can think of off the top of my head where it became a really nice thing to have was when I parked IN a 6" deep iced over pothole. I pulled into the parking spot, the ice broke, and plop. Bonus was the other front wheel was sitting on an ice patch too. I backed out of that spot with very little drama. Otherwise I would have needed to have someone push the car to get out of that spot. bull3964 fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Dec 9, 2010 |
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Dec 9, 2010 07:43
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Throatwarbler posted:*shrug* I make judgments based on evidence. Track times <> evidence of real world drivability
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Dec 9, 2010 08:09
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bull3964 posted:Hell, I was having trouble driving my parents 125hp Automatic Vibe in the rain when I borrowed it since I'm used to more traction than I could ever want when pulling out places. Until you drive it day to day for a long basis, it's hard to realize all the situations where you take the traction for granted. This is good and bad. It's good that people can get a car that helps them get around in all conditions. It's bad that it takes away from the caution and planning one should have in less than ideal conditions. dissss posted:Sure 4wd isn't a magic bullet but compare a high power FWD like a Mazdaspeed3 or Focus XR5 to a high powered 4wd like a WRX and see which is more usable. I've driven an MS3 and had a supercharged Focus and yes, both have noticeable torque steer when you get on it. It's a little hazard of the car just like the rear of a powerful RWD car can get loose on you when you stomp on it. Under normal driving conditions, it is a complete non-issue, same as being able to break loose the rear in the RWD car. There's not really a question a car with torque steer is still completely useable in real life or on the track. Not that anyone who'd buy one is taking their new Regal to the track. quote:Saab really isn't know for making good handling vehicles full stop, just because theirs suck that doesn't mean all 4wd does. Saab's influence on the nature of the car is limited by their freedom to work with GM platform and components. The Regal would be lucky to get a system as nice as the Haldex XWD. Which reinforces my point -- wishing for AWD on that car isn't going to get you what you want.
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Dec 9, 2010 13:52
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kimbo305 posted:This is good and bad. It's good that people can get a car that helps them get around in all conditions. It's bad that it takes away from the caution and planning one should have in less than ideal conditions. You could say the same thing about anything that increases a car's performance. A better handling car lets you go faster though turns with a larger safety envelope, better brakes allow you to stop quicker with a larger safety envelope, the list goes on. The whole point of buying something with better performance is to use that performance. There's just a transition period when you move to a different vehicle where you have to relearn the limits. It's just hard to break a decade of habits for a day's worth of driving.
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Dec 9, 2010 14:40
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bull3964 posted:You could say the same thing about anything that increases a car's performance. A better handling car lets you go faster though turns with a larger safety envelope, better brakes allow you to stop quicker with a larger safety envelope, the list goes on.
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Dec 9, 2010 14:48
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Throatwarbler posted:Really? How about the Impreza, or Exiga, or all of their Kei cars and trucks? Only the biggest and most expensive Subarus (Legacy, Tribeca, Forester, any kind of SUV is a luxury vehicle outside of North America) are AWD only for marketing purposes. Only for marketing purposes? I'll say it makes one hell of a difference on snow covered/unplowed roads. While it does make people more confident drivers and people need to remember that AWD doesn't help you stop, it'll sure help you get going on icy/snowy surfaces. This comes from having driven an '06 A4 with and without quattro back to back in about a foot and a half of snow.
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Dec 9, 2010 14:50
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kimbo305 posted:Not necessarily. Super brakes and 500hp don't necessarily cause a driver to feel invincible and disconnect from the road, while a lot of the new nanny techs definitely do. Lane departure detection, auto-brake radar, so many different ways to have the car drive for you. I'll be the first to admit that a good AWD on loose surfaces is incredible, but I am wary that it makes a poorly educated driver forget what a car is and isn't capable of. Poorly educated drivers don't suddenly get educated when those aids are taken away though. They just crash more often, quite possibly into you.
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Dec 9, 2010 15:58
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Throatwarbler posted:Really? How about the Impreza, or Exiga, or all of their Kei cars and trucks? Only the biggest and most expensive Subarus (Legacy, Tribeca, Forester, any kind of SUV is a luxury vehicle outside of North America) are AWD only for marketing purposes. Leather isnt a gimmick simply because the most expensive models come with it; AWD has it's advantages if you live in a state that gets lovely weather. I've owned fwd/rwd/awd vehicles, and AWD are the easiest to drive in poo poo conditions.
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Dec 9, 2010 16:08
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bull3964 posted:Poorly educated drivers don't suddenly get educated when those aids are taken away though. They just crash more often, quite possibly into you. New cars are gonna be new cars, but I'd sure as well wish we educated new drivers more. Ship them to Finland.
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Dec 9, 2010 16:28
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Wouldn't it be easier to just bring the Finnish driving test here?
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Dec 9, 2010 20:22
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Indeed, I would happily send my daughter to a Finnishing school. 
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Dec 9, 2010 20:35
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Honestly, I don't believe it's a problem with driver education alone. Driving is a chore for the vast majority of people. They view it as a necessary evil for society to function as it does. You can tell people how to do things properly until they can recite it in their sleep, but if they flat out just don't CARE it won't matter. Yes, the driving tests need to be harder, but that's not going to stop people from passing them and then doing whatever the hell the feel like it later when they aren't under the microscope of an instructor. People are easily distracted from things they don't like to do, it's fundamental human behavior. The problem is mostly that people who wouldn't even bother driving in other countries are forced out on to the road here due to the lack of any other option. When you have people who are, at best, disinterested or, at worst, fearful or hateful or driving, you aren't going to get a top notch performance out of them.
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Dec 9, 2010 20:42
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kimbo305 posted:Saab's influence on the nature of the car is limited by their freedom to work with GM platform and components. The Regal would be lucky to get a system as nice as the Haldex XWD. Which reinforces my point -- wishing for AWD on that car isn't going to get you what you want. Saabs have never been particularly good dynamically, and that goes back way before GM involvement. You don't NEED 4wd just like you don't NEED a turbocharger, but on occasion its nice to have.
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Dec 9, 2010 22:44
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Russian Bear posted:Wouldn't it be easier to just bring the Finnish driving test here? Man I wish. It would be interesting to at least have it as an option and get with the insurance companies so people can get a larger discount. Would do wonders for this country.
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Dec 9, 2010 23:42
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Throatwarbler posted:More usable for what? Taking off from a standing stop maybe. I see little evidence that the WRX is any faster than the MS3 around a track. Here's an example: Short of deciding to hash up an "argument" that has been around for years, with no real point to it, is there a reason you've decided to soap-box on this now?
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Dec 9, 2010 23:46
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I haven't driven a Focus RS, and so can't comment, but by all accounts Ford's revo-knuckles (or whatever they call them) quell powerful-fwd-car handling bolshiness rather well.
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Dec 10, 2010 00:02
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Sir Tonk posted:Man I wish. It would be interesting to at least have it as an option and get with the insurance companies so people can get a larger discount. Would do wonders for this country. I watched a tape on defensive driving at the insurance office for an extra discount when I first signed up. That was twelve years ago though. I think anybody who doesn't like driving in traffic (everyone?) should read this site: http://www.trafficwaves.org
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Dec 10, 2010 00:02
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We (Syracuse) got over 43 inches of snow the first four days of this week. Please tell me how the AWD on my WRX is a gimmick and a nanny device that encourages bad driving as opposed to a tool that lets me go get groceries and drive up hills. When you're done with that, tell me the same story about my snow tires. I get it, AWD isn't some sort of magic device that can turn any FWD car into a raging mass of performance, but please don't pretend like it's solely the product of some marketing scheme on the part of companies like Subaru/Audi (my previous car was a Coupe Quattro). I absolutely hate having to drive my GF's FWD Jetta (also with snow tires) when the weather gets lovely.
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Dec 10, 2010 00:13
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TrueChaos posted:Only for marketing purposes? I'll say it makes one hell of a difference on snow covered/unplowed roads. While it does make people more confident drivers and people need to remember that AWD doesn't help you stop, it'll sure help you get going on icy/snowy surfaces. This comes from having driven an '06 A4 with and without quattro back to back in about a foot and a half of snow. I should have put a comma in that sentence. I meant "AWD only, for marketing purposes" i.e. they don't make a FWD Legacy(since the BH body style of the late 90s) because it would be bad marketing. quote:Short of deciding to hash up an "argument" that has been around for years, with no real point to it, is there a reason you've decided to soap-box on this now? I know the thread is a bit hard to follow because it's been on and off for the last few weeks. The original complaint was that the Regal GS should have AWD, I'm saying it shouldn't because AWD would only make the car slower. When I said they were a gimmick I meant that they don't make car like the Regal faster around a track. The same could be said for the A4, the Regal's major competitor.
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Dec 10, 2010 01:08
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aparmenideanmonad posted:We (Syracuse) got over 43 inches of snow the first four days of this week. Please tell me how the AWD on my WRX is a gimmick and a nanny device that encourages bad driving as opposed to a tool that lets me go get groceries and drive up hills. I love AWD/4WD for multiple reasons. My truck is part time 4WD and eventually i'll parts-bin-gineer it to AWD. I love good AWD. However, a number of vehicles have a crappy electric "AWD" just so the manufacturer can stick on another badge and make another few price points.
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Dec 10, 2010 01:48
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On the weekend, my Dad admitted that my Mustang with Nokian Hak Rs and limited-slip differential handled as well on snow as my Mom's AWD sedan with all-seasons. Granted, there are some situations where I'd want proper 4WD, but AWD is really not necessary for the average driver. The money is much better spent on winter tires if you're concerned about driving on snow/ice.
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Dec 10, 2010 04:57
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aparmenideanmonad posted:I get it, AWD isn't some sort of magic device that can turn any FWD car into a raging mass of performance, but please don't pretend like it's solely the product of some marketing scheme on the part of companies like Subaru/Audi (my previous car was a Coupe Quattro). I absolutely hate having to drive my GF's FWD Jetta (also with snow tires) when the weather gets lovely.
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Dec 10, 2010 06:39
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Sir Tonk posted:Man I wish. It would be interesting to at least have it as an option and get with the insurance companies so people can get a larger discount. Would do wonders for this country. I think most insurance companies in the US have discounts if you take a "defensive driver" course or do a HPDE.
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Dec 10, 2010 15:59
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Anyone in Northern Virginia looking for an internship? Bugatti wants you.
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Dec 10, 2010 16:04
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So am I a complete tool for really wanting a 4 door Golf R when it comes out in mid-2011? Of course, it's not a fancy AWD system like the one found in Subies, but I bet it's fun. http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/09/volkswagen-golf-r-coming-to-america-official/ Autoblog posted:Unlike the R32, which was powered by VW's popular VR6, the new model will be powered by Volkswagen's ubiquitous turbocharged 2.0-liter four-cylinder. And while Volkswagen isn't quoting power output for the new U.S. model, the European version currently on sale conjures up 270 horsepower and 258 pound-feet of torque. All of that gumption will be routed through VW's fourth generation Haldex 4Motion all-wheel drive system, which means the VW should once again be a good foil for cars like the Subaru WRX and Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart.  Click here for the full 1280x853 image. So, 270 HP from a 2.0 l turbo, AWD, and a six speed? It won't compete with the STi or EVO (and it will probably be just as expensive), but I bet it'll be a great daily driver car and have a great interior. \/\/\/\/ Yeah, the $34k price tag is little too much. I guess I'll have to find an in-between car. Edit: My major concern with this engine, and DI engines in general(see: MZR 2.3 DISI, but not Toyota's DIs) is the issue of carbon buildup in the intake and on the intake valves. I've read that running an oil catch can from the get go greatly reduces this problem, along with running seafoam through a booster line at every oil change. I haven't read through the VW/Audi thread enough to see if those guys are having this problem or what-- but it's a concern. MetaJew fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Dec 11, 2010 |
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Dec 10, 2010 21:58
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It doesn't make you a tool for wanting one. I kind of want one too. I'm just sure as hell not going to pay $34k for one. I'll let the first owner do that.
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Dec 11, 2010 06:07
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So that car sounds exactly like an Audi A4... 2L Turbo, 6spd, 4dr w/ haldex AWD for 34$k
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Dec 11, 2010 06:16
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Throatwarbler posted:More usable for what? Taking off from a standing stop maybe. I see little evidence that the WRX is any faster than the MS3 around a track. Here's an example: What kind of argument is this? The WRX and MS3 have more differences than just FWD vs AWD. The article you posted mentioned that the WRX's track time suffered due to extreme brake fade issues. How you jump from that to 'AWD is a gimmick is' is a mystery.
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Dec 11, 2010 07:01
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YoYo posted:So that car sounds exactly like an Audi A4... 2L Turbo, 6spd, 4dr w/ haldex AWD for 34$k A4's don't have Haldex AWD; A3 quattros, TT's and R32's do.
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Dec 11, 2010 19:44
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DropShadow posted:A4's don't have Haldex AWD; A3 quattros, TT's and R32's do. I thought TTs had the same system the A4 has?
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Dec 11, 2010 21:25
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Muffinpox posted:I think most insurance companies in the US have discounts if you take a "defensive driver" course or do a HPDE. I'm pretty sure most insurance companies in the US would strongly consider dropping your coverage if they found out that you do HPDE days... Insurances companies view Defensive driver courses (a few hours of instruction and a test but no actual driving) very differently then HPDE days. (rightfully so)
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Dec 11, 2010 22:23
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