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They've gotta have something going for them if they can hurt a 'Mech at all. My current theory is that they're actually gyrojet slugs (which exist in battletech--I mean, if you REALLY just want to shoot infantry, a 1-ton block of ballistic plastic for a 'Mech-sized needler would work better); but a machinegun that fires tiny missiles at things? That's awesome.
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Jan 31, 2011 07:53
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Guys! HE HAD TO HIT ON AN 11. How was I supposed to know that the gods themselves decided to forsake me! That being said, I don't think I was in a position to hit anyone else.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:00
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gyrojets still wouldn't do much damage without some space to speed up. the net effect would be similar to a shove to the mech, possibly a few holes poked in the ammo hopper, or it ballooning and bursting if they all went off at once. bullets really, really don't do jack outside of the gun. Edit: thinking about it, gyrojets would do less damage, since the slower burning explosive wouldn't give the same instant OOMPH before the hopper bursts. Felime fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 08:06
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Wait, Gauss Rifle ammo explodes? But, they're solid kinetic penetrators. 
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Jan 31, 2011 08:11
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Battletech Gyrojet rounds explode. They're basically bolter rounds. And no, Gauss Rifle ammo doesn't explode. The Gauss Rifle, however, does.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:13
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Arglebargle III posted:Wait, Gauss Rifle ammo explodes? But, they're solid kinetic penetrators. That's what I was saying. And even in BTech, a machine gun is a machine gun is a machine gun... They've always been described that way, and if you watch the Mechwarrior 5 trailer, that Warhammer's unloading with his MGs, and they're spanging off that Atlas' armor just as you'd expect them to, not rippling little bursts of fire. I can't buy the explanation that they're bolter rounds or gyrojets. It's really just a mistake - an oversight - in the rules, and honestly I wish MegaMek had an unofficial rule to treat MG rounds like Gauss Rifle rounds when they were shot and have them do gently caress-all.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:20
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And Here's Another Mech Advertisement Since we're on the subject of machine guns, I'd like to bring up probably my favorite of the Clan Diamond Shark/Sea Fox 'troll mechs', that is, Mech designs meant primarily to confuse and annoy other Clans. PRA-1 Piranha  Here at Clan Diamond Shark, we pride ourselves on coming up with the most... 'innovative' designs possible. And to our clients, both within the Clans and in the Inner Sphere, we like to provide... 'quality' machines, built using only the finest in Clan equipment. It is in this spirit that we bring you our latest development, and what we consider the last word in anti-infantry light mechs. The Piranha, at 20 tons, is one of the lightest models we build, but don't let size fool you: this fish has serious bite. 2 ER Medium Lasers and 1 ER Small Laser provide respectable mid-range punch for the weight class it occupies, but the real threat comes from an unlikely source: twelve Series XII .50 caliber rotary machine guns, while weak individually, provide a shockingly savage amount of firepower at close range, making anti-infantry duty a breeze for even the most inaccurate of gunners. Integral CASE protects pilots from unfortunate ammo cook-off. The Bergan XIV endo-steel chassis keeps things light and responsive, while a 180 Firebox XL engine lets the Piranha reach land speeds of over 150 kilometers per hour, allowing you to close in on just about any prey you can imagine to deliver all that armor-piercing gatling goodness. To save costs for you, our valued consumer, 4 tons of standard armor make repairs cheap and easy, though we advise you not go out of your way to scuff the paint. Individually, a Piranha retails for 2,779,740 C-bills, but as part of our Inner Sphere Good Will discount program, you can own a full Star of Piranhas for the low, low price of 10,000,000 C-bills, a bargain value for all your pack-hunting needs. Whether engaging whole companies of infantry, or just running circles around annoying Atlases and Mad Cats, the Piranha is just the set of teeth you're looking for. Clan Diamond Shark: Deals So Good, They're Practically Isorla Agent Interrobang fucked around with this message at 08:27 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 08:24
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:
Which begs the question of why the Warhammer pilot even bothered shooting the Atlas with machine gun bullets...poor man's lance was getting chewed up all around him, and then his own mech goes kaplooie.  Edit: ^^^^ I'm having a hard time imagining even 12 machine guns doing anything useful against things that are not tanks or infantry...
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Jan 31, 2011 08:25
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Agent Interrobang posted:PRA-1 Piranha 
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Jan 31, 2011 08:28
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Artificer posted:Edit: ^^^^ I'm having a hard time imagining even 12 machine guns doing anything useful against things that are not tanks or infantry... Ahaha. Ahahahahaha. Ahahahahahahahahahahaha. Ha. I'll let someone else explain the joys of MG abuse.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:28
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A solid ton of machine gun ammo going off inside a mech should still cause some damage. Gunpowder is not an explosive (which is true), but enough of it in a highly confined area (say a constricted ammo bin!) will need some place to expand. And having a giant fireball + some scattering bullets bouncing around against the internals of the mech probably aren't good for it. If you superheated a metal can of machine gun ammo inside a SWAT van, would the ensuing damage from the ammo cooking off destroy the van? Probably not. If the van was full of valuable electronic equipment, would it wreck the poo poo out of it? You bet your rear end. All those rounds are still going to be hitting metallic surfaces and bouncing around, which greatly inrceases the chances they'll hit something important. (Mechanically though, yeah, it's just the fact that the ammo rules don't scale well on the low end.)
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Jan 31, 2011 08:31
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Agent Interrobang posted:'troll mechs', that is, Mech designs meant primarily to confuse and annoy other Clans. Okay now you have to elaborate on this concept.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:34
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KnightLight posted:It's Diamond Shark. They're the Ferengi of the Clans. They couldn't find Victory with a map and a compass. Somebody in the Merchant class who owns a machine gun ammo manufacturing center bribed a Scientist caste member on the mech design board to make that monstrosity.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:37
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Zaodai posted:A solid ton of machine gun ammo going off inside a mech should still cause some damage. Gunpowder is not an explosive (which is true), but enough of it in a highly confined area (say a constricted ammo bin!) will need some place to expand. And having a giant fireball + some scattering bullets bouncing around against the internals of the mech probably aren't good for it. Actually, odds are the tin of ammo wouldn't do much of anything, you'll have a hell of a time actually getting them to all explode at once, and the thing about ammunition is that, without the gun bit, the bullet's quite a bit heavier than the casing, and there's nothing holding the sides in, so they tend to burst out to the side. It would be a severe shrapnel risk, but your electronics would be amply protected by a sturdy computer case.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:46
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Zaodai posted:A solid ton of machine gun ammo going off inside a mech should still cause some damage. Gunpowder is not an explosive (which is true), but enough of it in a highly confined area (say a constricted ammo bin!) will need some place to expand. And having a giant fireball + some scattering bullets bouncing around against the internals of the mech probably aren't good for it. It really won't, I have to say. It might pop hard enough to pop the lid off the box, but a heavy metal case? It probably won't do more than bulge, bow and dent the box. It won't be pleasant, but it's not going to wreck the inside of the van. As for the joys of machine gun abuse... Consider: on a roll of 2 on hit location for a successful hit, you get a through-armor critical. That's the real point of machine gun abuse - to rack up those Through Armor-Criticals (TACs) and wreck a 'mech without going through its armor. Of course, if it does have an armor breach, an MG swarm has the same crit-seeking property of LRMs and SRMs in that one or two is likely to hit internal structure and deal out a critical hit. And, of course, all those machine guns will have a strong "sandpapering" effect on even the toughest 'mech armor; and as ammunition is so drat plentiful, you're not going to run out any time soon, so even a half-ton or a single ton is more than enough to feed most 'mechs. 1 ton will feed 20 guns for 10 rounds of combat. That's a potential damage of 40 every round - by comparison, 1 ton of ammo will feed two AC/20s for only two and a half rounds. A single machine gun, a dual machine gun, even a quad machine gun is pretty much worthless on your mech. If you have to take it (because you're not allowed a custom, and you're not allowed to pick a model without them,) you'll use them when you go for a kick because why not, but you'll also generally dump the ammo at the first sign of trouble. But, if you boat them - and 6 tons of MGs on a 20-tonner mech certainly qualifies as boating! - then they can be very dangerous.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:54
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Felime posted:Actually, odds are the tin of ammo wouldn't do much of anything, you'll have a hell of a time actually getting them to all explode at once, and the thing about ammunition is that, without the gun bit, the bullet's quite a bit heavier than the casing, and there's nothing holding the sides in, so they tend to burst out to the side. It would be a severe shrapnel risk, but your electronics would be amply protected by a sturdy computer case. Your ammo is presumably amply protected by several tons of armor, but this is a universe where lasers and missiles and bigger guns are making holes in everything.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:56
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PoptartsNinja posted:Desmond kicked his ‘mech forward as the Spider sailed over his head. Spinning, Desmond flicked his control-sticks and his Blackjack’s torso screeched even as he came about. His crosshairs crossed the Spider’s vulnerable back as it landed and Desmond’s fingers instinctively closed on the trigger. The Kurita ‘mech’s laughable armor withered and ran under the assault. Jesus Christ, it's every battle scene ever depicted in a Battletech novel. You really have done your homework, PTN - even the style matches.
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Jan 31, 2011 08:58
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Preechr posted:Jesus Christ, it's every battle scene ever depicted in a Battletech novel. You really have done your homework, PTN - even the style matches. I'm waiting for him to describe the PPC fire. Just say "man-made lightning" as many times as possible.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:01
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Preechr posted:Jesus Christ, it's every battle scene ever depicted in a Battletech novel. You really have done your homework, PTN - even the style matches. After the LP STO thread, are you surprised? Poptarts Ninja is in fact an amazing Wordsmith. The transmitted text is his canvas, and an artist is he.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:02
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Tanith posted:Your ammo is presumably amply protected by several tons of armor, but this is a universe where lasers and missiles and bigger guns are making holes in everything. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI this is what bullets do outside of a gun. Your container is obviously NOT airtight, as it just got holed, so you're going to have to get a majority of them to go off at once to see any effect, and while energy weapons could presumably do that, all you'd see is bursting in your ammo hopper, and that's only from pressure, which isn't going to do anything to the side shored up by internal supports and structure. It's going to burst outward, spill any unexploded bullets, and send you on your way. Ammunition without a gun will do nothing to anything more than an inch or so away from it. Don't hold a live round, and the only risk is a bad cut or metal in the eye.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:08
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Tanith posted:Your ammo is presumably amply protected by several tons of armor, but this is a universe where lasers and missiles and bigger guns are making holes in everything. Yeah, and those same weapon hits are what is heating up the ammo enough to all go off at once. I'm drawing most of my assumptions from what my brother has told me. As a former volunteer firefighter in redneck country, he's been around enough fires containing large quantities of ammo to know how it works. At least I assume so. Of course, we don't actually know that they're using standard, 20-21st century gunpowder in those rounds either.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:09
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If the Vulcan moves to 1310 he breaks LOS to the Hussar and Spider. If he fails his piloting roll when going into the water it's not going to be funny though. The Jenner could jump to 1110 to cool off I guess. It will still have los but the penalties would be quite severe. Man I have forgotten so much, is there an extra penalty for jumping into or out of water?
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Jan 31, 2011 09:11
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:But, if you boat them - and 6 tons of MGs on a 20-tonner mech certainly qualifies as boating! - then they can be very dangerous. There's also the fact that taking enough damage in a single turn forces a piloting skill check to stay standing. I want to say the threshold is 20 points? MGs only do 2 points each, but you can theoretically stuff a whole lot of them into a mech, even a light mech fast enough to get them into firing range, and from there it's not unreasonable to expect to do 20+ damage in a turn. You get the sandpaper effect, possible TACs, you have a good chance of getting crit-seeking hits on breached sections and a decent chance of knocking the target down through sheer weight of fire - which does even more damage to it and puts it at an insane disadvantage the next turn (remember, you're using MGs which means you're within 3 hexes and the target will be prone).
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Jan 31, 2011 09:25
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:
Oh that makes sense. I think I mixed up this with the Mechwarrior games, because I recall trying to machine gun boat there, and it......didn't work very well.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:39
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WarLocke posted:There's also the fact that taking enough damage in a single turn forces a piloting skill check to stay standing. I want to say the threshold is 20 points? MGs only do 2 points each, but you can theoretically stuff a whole lot of them into a mech, even a light mech fast enough to get them into firing range, and from there it's not unreasonable to expect to do 20+ damage in a turn. You get the sandpaper effect, possible TACs, you have a good chance of getting crit-seeking hits on breached sections and a decent chance of knocking the target down through sheer weight of fire - which does even more damage to it and puts it at an insane disadvantage the next turn (remember, you're using MGs which means you're within 3 hexes and the target will be prone). I made a 45-tonner I called a Taascon, short for TActical ASsault CONveyance, which is really a play on its acronym of TAC-11. Take a wild guess what that's for. It's actually surprisingly undergunned, having a mere ten MGs, but it's a 6/9/6 quad with full armor. In tight, thick - and I mean really thick - forest terrain, it's a holy terror. Ideally, you want to always be one square away from someone, on his six, so you can kick him. Artificer posted:Oh that makes sense. I think I mixed up this with the Mechwarrior games, because I recall trying to machine gun boat there, and it......didn't work very well. Because the Mechwarrior games don't have criticals, Through Armor or otherwise.  There is good reason in MW4:Mercs that the very first thing I do is strip off all the MGs and sell them.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:42
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Artificer posted:Oh that makes sense. I think I mixed up this with the Mechwarrior games, because I recall trying to machine gun boat there, and it......didn't work very well. Yeah, MGs in the Mechwarrior games are functionally worthless. I'm not sure they even actually do damage? In any event, critical hits don't exist in the more recent ones, so they aren't even good for crit seeking, you never really face infantry and a single large laser is sufficient to one shot any tank or aerospace fighter you run across at a significantly longer range while not being useless against mechs.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:44
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:
Yeah, I've started doing that too. I've been using heavy medium lasers and ER PPCs for tank/helicopter killing (overkill I know), but I've had range problems with the heavy mediums, and an ER large laser is 3 tons heavier....3 tons that I need in heat sinks.
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Jan 31, 2011 09:51
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Arglebargle III posted:Okay now you have to elaborate on this concept. Basically, Clan Diamond Shark, aka. Clan Sea Fox is pretty much ruled by its merchant caste. Which basically makes them the Ferengi of the Clans. Blessed with a lack of obsession with most forms of Clan honor, they've taken up trading with the Inner Sphere. To make things interesting, they've also taken to designing grand-spankin' new mechs to sell to this new and expanding market. By which I mean they come up with a slew of knock-off designs of iconic clan mechs intended to be sold to stupid inner sphere buyers who didn't know any better because if its made by the clans, it *must* be good. Like the Mad Cat Mk.II. Which, mind, is actually pretty solid, but its a design that's looked down upon in the clans, if only because of the non-omni stigma. Der Waffle Mous fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 10:49
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So this thread made me try out MegaMek. It's pretty fun! I'm playing a scenario right now called "The Mistake." Your forces consist mostly of medium and assault mechs, with a Hunchback at the middle of the map facing off against an Assassin. The map is long, with small forests on the left flank and hills on the right. It's a pretty cool map. Anyways, about 5 turns in, I've moved my forces up, assault mechs taking cover behind a hill, and my LRM mechs in the trees plinking away at their assault lance's armor. Nobody is moving around too much. At one point, this Jenner flies over the hill and right into the middle of my 3 biggest mechs, a Grasshopper, a Cyclops, and a Zeus. Since I've never tried it and you goons keep talking about it, I decide, "gently caress it, this Grasshopper's got jump jets, I'm going for a DFA!" I make the move and go to the weapons phase. Figuring I might miss (it needed to be a 10 or higher roll), I spun the cyclops around and took aim with its AC/20 at point blank range. And what happens? Direct hit with the AC/20 to the right arm. This blows the limb clean off and transfers enough damage to the right torso to set off the SRM6 ammo inside, exploding the whole drat mech before my Grasshopper careens into it's corpse and falls down a level 3 cliff, collecting about 35 damage in total.
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Jan 31, 2011 10:52
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If you fill a Daishi up with clan MG racks in MW4 you will no longer doubt whether or not they do damage. It actulally works (ish) for the urban maps. Of course LBX or RAC will do the job better
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Jan 31, 2011 10:52
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NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!
Slaapaav fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 11:07
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Saros posted:If you fill a Daishi up with clan MG racks in MW4 you will no longer doubt whether or not they do damage. They'd still be poo poo. You could replace them with gauss rifles or LBX ACs, or just run 8 ER Large and some miscellaneous crap, etc. I was being facetious when I doubted their ability to do damage. They wouldn't be in the game if they did zero damage. But I'm sure it's a fraction of a point per shot, which makes them pretty bad compared to any other weapon. Even small pulse lasers (which are also pretty crap).
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Jan 31, 2011 11:39
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Zaodai posted:Yeah, MGs in the Mechwarrior games are functionally worthless. Did you ever try them in MW1 or MW2? In MW1 you could fire them as quickly as you could hit the trigger: combined with easy-to-hit heads they were real doomsday weapons. MW2 did the same, but since you could now design your mechs to have 10 of them (or whatever the maximum amount of weapons was) they were instant death at ranges of 90 meters or less. Fortunately you couldn't use a design like this in multiplayer: firing the guns would crash the connection.
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Jan 31, 2011 11:49
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Hob_Gadling posted:Did you ever try them in MW1 or MW2? In MW1 you could fire them as quickly as you could hit the trigger: combined with easy-to-hit heads they were real doomsday weapons. MW2 did the same, but since you could now design your mechs to have 10 of them (or whatever the maximum amount of weapons was) they were instant death at ranges of 90 meters or less. Fortunately you couldn't use a design like this in multiplayer: firing the guns would crash the connection. My memories of MW2 are vague at best. All I really remember is the game being fun and that it wore out my original Sidewinder joystick from me playing the game so much. MW1 I only played on the SNES, and it was so bad it makes me want to cry.  The only good thing that came out of it was that it gave me a weird view of the newcaster Wolf Blitzer, given that he was one of the bosses in MW1.
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Jan 31, 2011 11:55
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quote:Clan Diamond Shark: Deals So Good, They're Practically Isorla I just wanted to interject that this line is hilarious. That's pretty much all. p.s. cower in terror from the mobile mech with a large laser, Axe-Man! It's just like Megamek last night!  But seriously that Hussar needs to die before it costs you all a mech. edit: Yeah, a 10x MG boat in MW2/Mercs is pretty hilariously overpowered, arguably even moreso than in the boardgame. There's one MW2 mission where you have to infiltrate a terraforming compound, blow up the reactor, and get to safe distance before it melted down. Only way to this day I can beat that mission on hard is with a 10xMG boat. Mukaikubo fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 13:17
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Nothing to see here. Move along.
raverrn fucked around with this message at 20:06 on Jan 31, 2011 |
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Jan 31, 2011 13:45
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My orders as submitted Movement Orders: Jenner Mech D - Jumps to 1215, landing facing 1315. Fires: None Commanders intent: Hide from the opposing mechs, while being in a position to move out to fight if they come via the river. Will let the other two handle the left flank. Pretty sure that position is out of LOS from both hostile mechs. I briefly considered going to 0415 and covering the other flank, but it doesn't feel like the right move if we are going to draw them into a short range confrontation.
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Jan 31, 2011 13:46
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KnoxZone posted:I just had an amusing image in my head of two medium mechs and a superior light mech all fleeing in terror from a lone Hussar. "They're fighting back somehow!" "Retreat! Retreat!"
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Jan 31, 2011 14:34
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Der Waffle Mous posted:Basically, Clan Diamond Shark, aka. Clan Sea Fox is pretty much ruled by its merchant caste. Pretty much this, which is not even getting into the story of their name. See, Clan Sea Fox had this big falling out with Clan Snow Raven back in the day. Clan Sea Fox was named for the sea fox, the most dangerous water-based predator on Strana Mechty, the capital world of the Clans. So, seeking to deprive them of their totem in order to humiliate them, Khan Liam Howell of the Snow Ravens ordered his scientists to genetically engineer a new variety of shark designed to kill off the sea foxes, and introduced them to Strana Mechty's oceans. The sharks pretty much extincted the sea foxes, and Khan Howell proceeded to be  as hell... for about a week or so. Khan Clarke, leader of Clan Sea Fox, captured one of the sharks, figured out what was going on, and without skipping a beat, IMMEDIATELY requested to change the Clan's name to "Diamond Shark," after the new species, arguing that the spirit of Clan Sea Fox's name was to be named for the greatest predator in Strana Mechty's seas.Khan Howell had a loving MELTDOWN over this, and in the course of his ranting, accidentally let slip that he was responsible for extincting the totem species of a Clan. In the middle of the Grand Council. So his saKhan killed him, right there on the council floor. Mental note, Battletech villains: never admit your plans in front of the Clan Grand Council. They will just straight-up waste your rear end. After that, the Snow Ravens formally challenged the name change with a Trial of Refusal, and the Sea Foxes promptly kicked their asses. And then, just to twist the knife even deeper into the Snow Ravens, though he had officially won the right to the name change... Khan Clarke let all the castes of his Clan, from the warriors to the merchants, vote on whether or not to accept the name change, which was overwhelmingly approved, much to the grumbling and discontent of the Snow Ravens. What I'm basically driving at here is that the Diamond Sharks are Clan U Mad.
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Jan 31, 2011 15:52
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Didn't they change their name back to Sea Foxes at some point in 3100, when the original sea fox species bounced back? I looked them up on that wiki, looks like the sea foxes got better.
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Jan 31, 2011 16:00
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