Combat Sports - General Q and A thread: Why are these fights so boring?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Combat Sports - General Q and A thread: Why are these fights so boring?

«‹›118 »

Lid: Feb 18, 2005; And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Given Joe Rogan's habit of jumping into 10th Planet lingo I was thinking we may need a guide to those terms so new watchers wouldn't be confused... except I just realised outside of "Rubber Guard" I have no idea what name applies to what move and I don't think anyone else does either so essentially we'd be on equal grounds of confusion.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 10:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 21:22

Hockles: Dec 25, 2007; Resident of ~~Camp Blood~~
Crystal Lake

Two other questions that that video reminded me of:

1) They put gel on their face to make strikes glance off and do less damage, right?

2) I remember it in boxing and might have seen it in UFC, but what is the silver metal looking circle thing that corner-men rub on fighter's face and back?

# ? Feb 2, 2011 10:47

BlindSite: Feb 8, 2009

1st AD posted:

Yeah, I think some kind of general grappling FAQ is absolutely needed, because people generally get why things in boxing/kickboxing/muay thai work in MMA but as soon as a fight moves to the clinch or to the ground it's like voodoo. It should include:

-Clinch work, important of underhooks, takedowns from the clinch
-Grappling in a ring vs. grappling in a cage
-All the standard BJJ positions + less common stuff like a top crucifix or rubber guard, why passing and posture are important, etc.
-All the basic joint locks and chokes, maybe a couple obscure ones like gogoplata or peruvian neck ties

"The Clinch"

Clinch fighting is one of the most under-appreciated and important aspects of MMA. One of the greatest of all time won world titles because of his talent in the clinch and realistically it's often an overlooked part of a fighters' repertoire. It's also not overly easy to explain because of the intricacies involved in trying to describe the ins and outs of what looks like two sweaty brutes hugging.

The clinch is what's considered a largely neutral, standing grappling position. It's recognised as the most effective way to slow the pace of a fight and neutralise an opponents striking. This is different to the "Thai Clinch" more on that later though.

This can be applied from front on, behind an opponent and standing to one side.

"underhooks and whizzers"

An underhook involves having on arm under your opponents armpit and your forearm and hand around their back in order to control their midsection / upper body. Double underhooks is both arms, a more controlling position in the clinch.

A Whizzer or overhook, though a weaker position than the underhook is considered a counter to underhooks, traditionally it was done in an attempt to bearhug an opponent and trap their arms to their body, in MMA it's more done to prevent your opponent getting the necessary leverage to perform a body lock takedown (think a nice tight hug to either a trip or lean in order to pull someone to the floor), double leg takedown (rugby tackle). It also prevents being suplexed (somehow I think wrestle hut dudes know what this is).

The clinch in MMA often involves pressing your opponent into the cage in an attempt to tire them out and dictate the pace of the fight. It's also an easier way to initiate a takedown if efforts during regular exchanges have failed. Wrestlers and grapplers often attempt to employ this technique when facing "sprawl and brawl" fighters or in BJ Penn's case, a fighter who's got uncanny balance, agility and avoidance-of-takedowns ability.

It can make a fight more exciting and it can also make it extremely boring when two gassed out (exhausted) heavyweights just lean against the fence throwing human being punches while they catch their breath until the ref separates them.

If you're watching a fighter the guy in the clinch who's got the underhooks has the more dominant position even if their back is against the cage, getting underhooks can lead to some explosive reversals and offense.

If no one has I'll explain the difference with a thai clinch tomorrow.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 10:57

BlindSite: Feb 8, 2009

Hockles posted:

Two other questions that that video reminded me of:

1) They put gel on their face to make strikes glance off and do less damage, right?

2) I remember it in boxing and might have seen it in UFC, but what is the silver metal looking circle thing that corner-men rub on fighter's face and back?

The vaseline is used sometimes as a bit of a coagulant but more it's to stop punches sticking it also helps to stop cuts from forming as badly and bleeding as profusely.

The metal thing is used to help reduce swelling, usually it sits in an ice bucket so it's extremely cold. I don't know why they'd use it on their back but I know some fighters have referenced the ice packs on the back of their neck help them to feel more alert and focus between rounds, refreshing them a little and clearing the cob webbs.

The whole cut science is really interesting this is a great article on cuts in combat sports in general

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3688085

EDIT: Something I wanted to add too: in boxing they use their own cutman in their corner, in the UFC they use an allocated cutman, the reason for this is greasing. Fighters in the past have been accused and guilty of having lotions or greases or vaseline applied to their body in between and before rounds in order to make it harder for an opposing fighter to properly grab hold of them. The rules were actually changed to their current state after one of these scandals, it's even caused results to be overturned to No Contests in the past.

BlindSite fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Feb 2, 2011

# ? Feb 2, 2011 11:10

Glass Punkbull 141: Jan 9, 2008; This is the face of a winner. This is what winning looks like.

I casually watch UFC so I know a few fighters, but feel like asking anyway, who are some really good fighters in UFC and MMA in general?

# ? Feb 2, 2011 11:39

niethan: Nov 22, 2005; Don't be scared, homie!

Jack Anderson posted:

I casually watch UFC so I know a few fighters, but feel like asking anyway, who are some really good fighters in UFC and MMA in general?

Dominick Cruz has one of the weirdest styles he moves more than anybody else here is a Highlight of him. Strangely it features no Nu Metal music. I don't know what's up with that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4JYD3oxlUg

# ? Feb 2, 2011 11:47

Ciprian Maricon: Feb 27, 2006

That K1 OP could use a little filling out.

First, every K1 thread ever should include whats probably the best description of K1 I have ever read.

duncan posted:

For those not in the know, K-1 is the product of a consortium of Japanese criminals who spent a lot of money scouring the world for the finest athletes to answer the age old question: just how tall or fat does a man have to be to make a fight between him and a top class kickboxer boring?

Then, post all of this goodness here.

dunc, like forever ago posted:

10 great fights:

Badr Hari vs. Errol Zimmerman - This contains the coolest knockdown and the loudest punch you will ever hear.

Badr Hari vs. Ruslan Karaev 2 - A theme emerges.

Jerome Le Banner vs. Sam Greco 2 - Greco is one of the forgotten guys, he was really fun to watch, but most people nowadays basically remember him because he fought Machida once.

Jerome Le Banner vs. Mark Hunt 3 - This fight was hosed up by vaseline, and until his disasterous "comeback" was the only time Hunt was stopped in K-1. Stopped by vaseline. Coitus note: For a lot of new people Mark Hunt might be some fat dude who can't finish an Americana and sued his way to a UFC fight but for years he was an absolute beast in K1, completely iron chin.

Gokhan Saki vs. Ruslan Karaev (Part 2) - Of all the new guys, I think Saki and Zimmerman really stand out. Saki has a great style and fantastic leg kicks.

Erneston Hoost vs. Rob Kaman - This didn't actually take place in K-1, but it's great nontheless and most people are accustomed to Kaman the trainer, so it's interesting too.

Ernesto Hoost vs. Andy Hug 2 - Andy Hug ruled

Xhavit Bajrami vs. Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic - After Andy Hug's death, Bajrami promised he would become a K-1 champion. And he did. Then he was forgotten about. I can't even find the full fight anymore but I remember liking it. Coitus Note: I tried to find it too, but no dice.

Andy Hug vs. Mirko "CroCop" Filipovic (part 2) - He would die of Leukemia only 2 months later.

I cut out the last fight because it sucked and gently caress Cyril Abidi, if you want to see it find it yourself. :colbert:

dunc, continued posted:

10 great knockouts:

Mark Hunt vs. Jerome Le Banner 2 - The only one of the 4 he would ever win, but he went on to claim the title that year.

Jerome Le Banner vs. Ernesto Hoost 1 - Proving that you don't need leg kicks to chop someone down like a tree

Remy "The Flying Gentleman" Bonjasky vs. Vernon White - Even if you don't think you've seen this, you probably have. It's beautiful.

Jeroma Le Banner vs. Francisco Filho - My favourite KO ever. In any sport.

Glaube Feitosa vs. Alex Roberts - Feitosa has the prettiest kicks ever.

Peter Graham vs. Badr Hari - Rolling Thunder goooo 4eva. This has stupid music but it shows you the buildup which is part of why it owned so much. Coitus note: replaced the broken original youTube with the whole fight which is certainly worth it

Ray Sefo vs. Jerome Le Banner - This broke his jaw in 3 or 4 places, one of the unfortunate hallmarks of K-1 is that basically everybody has been put out bad several times. Coitus note: gently caress Ray Sefo.

Stefan Leko vs. Badr Hari 1 - Speaking of broken jaws Coitus note: I have no idea if this is the fight duncan wanted, they fought twice and I don't remember anyone having their jaw broken, I think duncan might have meant the Peter Graham fight because the rolling thunder absolutely shattered Hari's jaw. I picked the first one because Hari lost and gently caress him

Peter Aerts vs. Rob van Esdonk - Aerts has a million high kick KO's, but aesthetically this is my favourite

Ernesto Hoost vs. Mo Smith 1 - Ditto for Hoost.

Coitus_Interruptus posted:

Then duncan posted some curiosities but I'm also skipping those. I'm sure if you ask he will post them again.

So since duncan admittedly focused on the Heavyweights I'm going to focus on MAX, which I believe is the premiere product that K1 has to offer, and as soon as everyone else figures it out, MAX 63kg is going to rad as all hell.

Albert Kraus was the first MAX Champion but while he is always a threat and a really good fighter he is out-shined by a lot of stars in the division, so instead of trying to track down his forgetable MAX 2002 run just enjoy him beating the poo poo out of an Anime

He's still competitive but I think his last two outstanding performances where against Yatsuhiro Kido and Mike Zambidis

My favorite fight though is hands down when fellow MAX Champ Buakaw Por. Pramuk and he went all out in an amazing 4 round fight to see who would advance to the Final 8 for the 2008 MAX.

Masato would be the next MAX Winner in 2003 beating defending champ Albert Kraus Hope you like Masato because after losing the stupid loving haircut he rocked in AJKF we got to see a whole lot of him.

He managed to take a second title in 2008 beating the finest son in the universe Artur Kyshenko before retiring in 2009 after giving us one last amazing fight against fellow Champion and the only fighter to beat him he had yet to get revenge on Andy Souwer. Masato and Souwer gave us one hell of a fight as a parting gift.

I wish I could stop talking about Masato but he really was that important.
He got revenge on Kohi and had amazing fights against pretty much the entire cream of the K1 Max Roster. Like Yoshihiro Sato in 2008 or Kid Yamamoto, Mike Zambidis and Gago Drago The only MAX Champion Masato hasn't beaten is Giorgo Petrosyan because he retired (maybe out of fear)

You hear a lot of bad things against Masato, and for years I referred to him, and occasionally still do, as a human being. First because he wore ridiculously gay poo poo into the ring and also because he acted like a smug oval office and girls liked him a lot. Also K1 cheated like motherfuckers for him gave him unwarranted extended rounds to keep him in tournaments and changed the loving rules to protect him. All that said I still miss the Silver Wolf.

And this is why K1 had to change the rules to protect their golden boy The third Max Chamption and possibly my favorite MAX Final run of all time. Buakaw Por Pramuk. A multiple Stadium Champ in Thailand Buakaw came in and so completely dominated both Kohi and Masato in the clinch that they disallowed multiple strikes from the clinch in hopes of stopping him from repeating that run. In the Final matches the judges keep giving Masato draws in hoped that he can pull of a miracle comeback. Annoyed, in the final extension round, Buakaw comes out, fucks Masato up even harder and then tosses his rear end through the ropes directly in front of the judges table.

He also had an absolutely amazing 2006 run to win a second MAX Title, the first person to ever do so beating standouts like Yoshihiro Sato Gago Drago and knocking out defending 2005 champ Andy Souwer. There's lots more Buakaw to love, so google him up in your free time.

Next to take the Max Crown was Andy Souwer who came in and hosed up Kohiruimaki almost immediately ( then did it again a year later for good measure ) He beat Buakaw In extension rounds to take his title and has been in plenty of classics.

Like this fight with Yoshihiro Sato or his absolutely awesome 2008 Qualification bout against Mike Zambidis but before that came the qualification against Orlen Laursen which started a beautifl 2007 MAX Run where he beat Gago Drago, Albert Kraus and Masato

Masato won again in 2008 but honestly that was kind of meh and lovely. The story for me was Artur Kyshenko who beat Kido and Andy Souwer Kyshenko overall is a rad kid to watch. He's had great bouts, not just the 2008 Run (which if you recall was stopped by Masato being a fag.) but against guys you might remember like Chi Bin Lim and Yoshihiro Sato

Giorgio Petrosyan just won the last MAX and it was loving scary. No fancy story here just
Kraus
Yamamoto
Souwer

Guy is a beast.

Other max dudes we love.
Yuya Yamamoto who isn't great but has a rad chin and always puts on rad fights
Also now that I posted him. Nagashima is hilarious freakshow, first he shows up and completely smokes Hayato loses to Yuya and Kraus. Then thanks to some glorious twists of fate and the sudden retirement of Taishin Kohiruimaki wins the loving Japan MAX Tournament

Sato, Kohirumaki, and Kido are all great fighters despite never becoming champs. Its true, look, duncan agrees.

Giovanni Qobras posted:

abso loving lutely

and heres a sweet informative Buakaw Superpost.

Giovanni Qobras posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJM5YvOL4P4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt2k5KOVtlo

These were both in the same night and it was his breakout performance, he fought mean and was absolutely terrifying. Kohi really cemented his reputation as a bit of a coward that night in a rerun of the Kaolan debacle, and the judges showed their colours.

He still had the hands of a Thai, but not even Masato could exploit it at that point, he was just better than everybody else. Then his hands got better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMEQYOfGBC8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhtr_ERqLmI

These were also on the same night, it's shocking because Sato has an amazing chin and even though he was beaten up going into the fight, Souwer is probably the most consistent and well rounded kickboxer ever.

The thing is at 70kg nobody ever stays still, the level improves constantly. Buakaw sort of hit his skill ceiling and started slowing down a bit. Within a year he went from having this awesome fight with Sato:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SF0i0k7VeY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c109cnWvRQQ

to getting loving stomped by Sato and staging a comeback against guys like Black Mamba and Dida.

Buakaw's legend is kind of bigger than the man himself, he's still obviously an excellent fighter (and I thought he deserved the nod over Souwer last year) but he's very obviously slowing down and there's a lot of hyperbole surrounding the guy mostly coming from casual cheerleaders. When he retires people will give a more honest assessment of his career, but until then there's gonna be a lot of "BUAKAW IS THE BEST!!!" which was true at one point but isn't anymore.

It's crazy that he's on the downslope of his career and he's not even 30 though, Thai years are a son of a bitch

Since those posts there have been some startling and exciting developments in the world of punch-kick man (and occasionally child) fighting have occurred.

Giorgio Petrosyan won the MAX Title in 2010 becoming the first man to ever win back to back MAX titles. He made his way through Albert Kraus Mike Zambidis and Yoshihiro Sato though this impressive achievement would be overshadowed by Mike Zambidis quite possibly the best MAX fight of 2010

Alistair Overeem won the K1 Crown, but incredibly, somehow, that was a disappointment for all of us. Probably because he beat Peter Aerts, who had earlier achieved what we all thought was impossible Rocky has nothing on this poo poo, NOTHING. Sadly Alistair beat up an exhausted and damaged Aerts in the final, after having beaten an also tired and exhausted Gokhan Saki, who had also given us what, until we saw Aerts we all considered the fight of the night in this incredible display of guts and leg kicking. Which kind of muddies and sullies the victory. Still, thats the nature of the beast with tournaments.

In child fighting news, Noiri continues being incredibly awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQq7gZKY8KE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kkYKVOd4o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V47K4oP7SE4

So are some other Koshien veterans

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsKehDobMgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ro_RmrwHmyw

2010 K1 Koshien Champion would be Shoei Hareyama, who took the title in a real faggy way, being helped immensely by the awful awful tournament structure where he managed to avoid almost all the dangerous Koshien veterans only really having to contend with Ryosuke Sasaki. Still, good fights from the Ishida Brothers, Noiri, but most importantly importantly this:

Giovanni Qobras posted:

Ren Takeno has one eye and wears a Transformers logo on his shorts. His nickname is now Perceptor.

The final thing I want to leave you with, is K1 veteran and avid crossdresser Yoichiro "Jienotsu" Nagashima giving us all an incredible gift this past Dynamite

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ahWcGWlSZBM/TR45LqopEjI/AAAAAAAABGE/NGVQx-s4sGY/s1600/Shinya+Aoki+vs+Yuichiro.jpg

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 13:39 on Feb 2, 2011

# ? Feb 2, 2011 11:49

BlindSite: Feb 8, 2009

Jack Anderson posted:

I casually watch UFC so I know a few fighters, but feel like asking anyway, who are some really good fighters in UFC and MMA in general?

Lightweights:
BJ Penn (now fights at WW)
Gray Maynard
Frank Edgar
George Sotiropolis
Jim Miller
Clay Guida
Kenny Florian

Welterweight
Nick Diaz
Nate Diaz
George St Pierre
John Fitch (new comers will find him boring)
Thiago Alves (really great for new comers)
Matt Hughes (his old stuff)
Aaron Kampmann

Middleweight
Chael Sonnen
Anderson Silva
Damian Maia
Yushin Okami
Nate Marqhardt
Michael Bisping
Wanderlei Silva

Light Heavyweight
Ryan Bader
Johnny Bones Jones
Lyoto Machida
Forrest Griffin (all his fights are fun to watch)
Shogun Rua
Rampage Jackson
Chuck Liddell (any of his title fights)
Rashad Evans

Heavyweight
Cain Velasquez
Big Nog
Fedor (formerly)
Alistair Overeem
Brock Lesnar
Junior Dos Santos
Goon favourite Roy Nelson

# ? Feb 2, 2011 12:00

Ghost Head: Sep 16, 2008

I have the opposite question to whoever asked about great submission fighters. I find that whenever a fight goes to the ground I have absolutely no idea what the hell is happening, so I was wondering what the best fights are in like, the UFC, that were all about strikes and didn't involve any ground hugging.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 12:34

Droopy Goines: Aug 2, 2003; Presented in DTS ES 6.1 where available.

Ghost Head posted:

I have the opposite question to whoever asked about great submission fighters. I find that whenever a fight goes to the ground I have absolutely no idea what the hell is happening, so I was wondering what the best fights are in like, the UFC, that were all about strikes and didn't involve any ground hugging.

Click everything Coitus posted above you.

If you don't want "ground hugging" watch K-1, it is awesome.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 12:51

Pooned: Dec 28, 2005; Eye contact counters everything

Ghost Head posted:

I have the opposite question to whoever asked about great submission fighters. I find that whenever a fight goes to the ground I have absolutely no idea what the hell is happening, so I was wondering what the best fights are in like, the UFC, that were all about strikes and didn't involve any ground hugging.

You really should try to learn what is going on when there is grappling in a fight. Watching Mayweather in boxing do a right straight counter is a beautiful thing, watching Michael Jordan dunk a basketball is beautiful thing, watching George St.Pierre pass BJ Penn's guard is a beautiful thing.

You are missing out man!

# ? Feb 2, 2011 13:34

the yellow dart: Jul 19, 2004; King of rings, armlocks, hugs, and our hearts

BlindSite posted:

Welterweight
Aaron Kampmann

This is not a thing.

A good way to look at most of the best 170ers int he UFC is to watch all of Paulo Thiago's fights. They're all pretty exciting and will give you a pretty good idea of what the top echelons of the UFC are all about at 170 outside of GSP.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 14:07

Triticum Guzzler: Jun 16, 2002

Ghost Head posted:

I have the opposite question to whoever asked about great submission fighters. I find that whenever a fight goes to the ground I have absolutely no idea what the hell is happening, so I was wondering what the best fights are in like, the UFC, that were all about strikes and didn't involve any ground hugging.

watch k-1. giants, midgets, one eyed children, k-1 truly has it all.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 14:38

Meat Recital: Mar 26, 2009; by zen death robot

Burrito posted:

All I want to see in MMA is submissions. Just constant, awesome submissions.

Who should I look out for with that?

Kazushi Sakuraba between 1997 and 2001.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 14:40

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

Anyone want to contribute some must watch fights from 2005-present day? I just realized how little I follow modern day boxing and it made me sad.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 14:54

Triticum Guzzler: Jun 16, 2002

Meat Recital posted:

Kazushi Sakuraba between 1997 and 2001.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7w4jg_k-1-dynamite-hideo-tokoro-vs-daisuk_sport

basically anything with these two

# ? Feb 2, 2011 15:02

Save Russian Jews: Jun 7, 2007; who the fuck is this guy anyway, i can't even see his face; Lipstick Apathy

this is a necessity

# ? Feb 2, 2011 15:29

mobn: May 23, 2005; by Ozmaugh

This is mandatory viewing for everybody. Watch it in HD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAAgt6mGXIY

# ? Feb 2, 2011 15:48

Roadtard: May 24, 2008; The Sonnensault

Save Russian Jews posted:

this is a necessity

The absolute best B league tag.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 15:50

kensei: Dec 27, 2007; He has come home, where he belongs. The Ancient Mariner returns to lead his first team to glory, forever and ever. Amen!

Bubba Smith posted:

Strikeforce tag is a bit much. The promotion is growing but it doesn't represent all B-League promotions. An overall MMA tag would be better.

MMA tag, Boxing tag, Kickboxing tag, Wrestling tag (?), then maybe a tag that has Brock Lesnar holding up a UFC belt. That should about do it.

What about a TUF tag? They run that as a series twice a year plus kick off and finale cards.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 16:07

A Pale Horse: Jul 29, 2007

mobn posted:

This is mandatory viewing for everybody. Watch it in HD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAAgt6mGXIY

Yeah, this is an absolute pro-click right here. Saku :unsmith:

# ? Feb 2, 2011 16:08

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

Here's a post

Boxing is one of the oldest sports in the history of the world. I mean come on it's two men punching each other in the face who doesn't like to watch that? It has developed over the years into the sport we know today.

The Rules
In 1867 the Marquess of Queensberry made the rules that are still followed in boxing to this day.

To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
No wrestling or hugging (clinching) allowed.
The rounds to be of three minutes duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed. [6]
The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.

Of course there have been slight modifications here and there but that's about the gist of a boxing match. Two men punching each other, with as little clinching as possible, until the end of all the rounds or a ko/tko happens.

The Punches
Jab- this is the beginning of everything in boxing. It is a simple straight punch with the forward hand.
Cross or Straight- This is a straight punch with the back hand
Hook- A punch with a circular motion.
Uppercut- A punch coming from bottom to top.

Those are the four basic punches and all you have to worry about for now.

The Stances
A boxers stance is very important to which of his punches will have more power and what type of punches it will be easier for him to get hit with. Generally stance isn't really a big decider unless a southpaw has a huge problem with straight rights.

Orthodox- This is the stance for almost every right-handed fighter. Left foot is forward right foot is in the back.

Southpaw- This is the stance for almost every left-handed fighter. Right foot forward left foot is in the back.

The Styles
Every boxer has their own style but they can be categorized into 5 archetypes.

Boxer/Out-fighter- This is imo the best style to watch. It's boxing at its purest. The out-fighter fights on the outside(duh) and utiliazes fast, long range punches to do his damage. Every boxer will have an excellent jab and will know how to work the ring.
Notable out-fighters: Ali, Oscar De La Hoya, Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Boxer-puncher- Boxer punchers tend to be well rounded boxers being able to fight on the inside as well as the outside. They have similar technique to the out-fighter but are able to KO their opponents more often.
Notable boxer-punchers: Sugar Ray Robinson, Manny Pacquiao, Tommy Hearns

Brawler- Boxers with incredible punch strength and not much else. These guys take two punches to give one and that one punch is usually a doozy. Slow and predictable these guys will always have to win by KO.
Notable brawlers: George Foreman, Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini

Swarmer/In-fighter- Pressure is the name of the game. Staying incredibly close to their opponents and throwing combinations on top of combinations these fighters will stick to you like white on rice. They use bobbing and weaving to get to the inside and when they get there boy are you in trouble.
Notable in-fighters: Jack Dempsey, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson

Counter Punchers- These fighters are defensive geniuses that rely on punching when their opponent misses. Capitalizing on your opponents mistakes is difficult though and these guys have to have the mental toughness to stare down punches waiting for their counters.
Notable counter punchers: Juan Manuel Marquez, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney

How these styles match up is what makes the world of boxing interesting and as the saying goes "styles make fights."

The Fighters
This is the rings pound for pound list and includes some of the best guys at various weights. I'm not going to include rankings for each weight class because there are too many and I'm lazy but I will link you to the ring rankings.

Manny Pacquiao
Country: Philippines (General Santos City)
Record: 52-3-2 (38 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #1 | Last Week: #1 | Weeks On List: 374
Titles: WBO
Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Country: USA (Las Vegas, Nevada)
Record: 41-0-0 (25 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #2 | Last Week: #2 | Weeks On List: 72
Sergio Martinez
Country: Argentina
Record: 45-2-2 (24 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #3 | Last Week: #3 | Weeks On List: 39
Titles: WBC, The Ring
Juan Manuel Marquez
Country: Mexico
Record: 52-5-1 (38 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #4 | Last Week: #4 | Weeks On List: 203
Titles: WBA, WBO, The Ring
Nonito Donaire
Country: USA (San Leandro, Calif.)
Record: 23-1-0 (15 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #5 | Last Week: #5 | Weeks On List: 92
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam
Country: Thailand
Record: 78-3-1 (42 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #6 | Last Week: #6 | Weeks On List: 40
Titles: WBC, The Ring
Fernando Montiel
Country: Mexico
Record: 43-2-2 (33 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #7 | Last Week: #7 | Weeks On List: 29
Titles: WBO
Wladimir Klitschko
Country: Ukraine
Record: 55-3-0 (49 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #8 | Last Week: #8 | Weeks On List: 25
Titles: IBF, WBO, The Ring
Timothy Bradley
Country: USA (Palm Springs, Calif.)
Record: 27-0-0 (11 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #9 | Last Week: #9 | Weeks On List: 20
Titles: WBO
Juan Manuel Lopez
Country: Puerto Rico
Record: 29-0-0 (26 KOs)
Ranking: This Week: #10 | Last Week: #10 | Weeks On List: 11
Titles: WBO

The Fights
Here are some fights that you can look up to get you started in watching boxing there's a seriously long history to this sport so I'm just going to cherry pick some of my favorite fights.
Jack Johnson vs James J. Jeffries
Jess Willard vs Jack Dempsey
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney
Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling 1-2
Joe Louis vs Billy Conn
Jersey Joe Walcott vs Ezzard Charles 1-3
Jersey Joe Walcott vs Rocky Marciano
Rocky Marciano vs Archie Moore
Floyd Patterson vs Ingemar Johansson 1-3
Cassius Clay vs Sonny Liston 1-2
Muhammad Ali vs Joe Frazier 1-3
Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman
Muhammad Ali Vs Earnie Shavers
Tommy Hearns vs Roberto Duran
Tommy Hearns vs Marvin Hagler
Tommy Hearns vs Sugar Ray Leonard 1
Sugar Ray Leonard vs Roberto Duran 1-2
Hector Macho Camacho vs Edwin Rosario
Hector Macho Comacho vs Sugar Ray Leonard
Mike Tyson vs Trevor Berbick
Mike Tyson vs Donovan Razor Ruddock 1-2
Pernel Whitaker vs Oscar De La Hoya
Pernel Whitaker vs Julio Cesar Chavez
Oscar De La Hoya vs Felix Trinidad
Naseem Hamed vs Kevin Kelly
Naseem Hamed vs Marco Antonio Barrera
Macro Antonio Barrera vs Erik Morales 1-3
Erik Morales Vs Manny Pacquiao 1-2
Israel Vasquez vs Rafael Marquez 1-3
Micky Ward vs Arturo Gatti 1-3
Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs Emmanuel Augustus
Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs Diego Corales
Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs Jose Luis Castillo 1-2
Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs Zab Judah
Zab Judah vs Kostya Tszyu
Kostya Tszyu vs Diosbelys Hurtado
Kostya Tszyu vs Ricky Hatton
Ricky Hatton vs Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Ricky Hatton vs Manny Pacquiao
Miguel Cotto vs Manny Pacquiao
Miguel Cotto vs Paulie Malinaggi
Sergei Liakhovich vs Shannon Briggs
Sergei Liakhovich vs Lamon Brewster
Wladimir Klitschko vs Lamon Brewster 1-2

Alright this list could go on for days as I watch a lot of fights and there's tons of fighters I didn't even touch on. These are just some of the personal favorites of mine. Other people need to contribute so that there can be a variety and lower weight figths in here as I don't really watch under 130 guys.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 16:26

Gomi Pile: Jan 19, 2011; by Ozmaugh

projecthalaxy posted:

Are there any real single-style guys left in high-level MMA? I guess Roger Gracie might count, but even he seems to be succumbing to wrestleboxing.

Also, is the oil check the gayest technique in Our Gay Sport?

rousimar palhares, demian maia, ricardo almeida

# ? Feb 2, 2011 16:38

Ziggy Tzardust: Apr 7, 2006

mobn posted:

This is mandatory viewing for everybody. Watch it in HD:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAAgt6mGXIY

So let me get this straight. There's this family who have been dominant in MMA for decades. No-one can beat them. A plucky young guy who people know little about comes into PRIDE and starts wailing on people left and right. Suddenly, he beats a couple of the members of this undefeatable family who people want to see lose. Not only that, but he does it by using the very same move that was the cause of the last defeat in the family over 40 years ago. The family lose their poo poo about this and bring in their big gun. Not only do they bring in their big gun, but they alter the rules into MMA's version of a no disqualification match in the hopes of crushing this up-and-comer. After 90 minutes of comptition, the young guy finally wins and everyone goes nuts. The Gracies family threw everything they had at him and he came out on top. People are losing their poo poo.

And there are STILL people who think that MMA has nothing in common with wrestling.

I'd just like to say thank you for this thread. I've tried to get into MMA before but found it all a little intimidating. It looks like going through old PRRIDE stuff is best for me.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 16:41

Ghost Head: Sep 16, 2008

Giovanni Qobras posted:

watch k-1. giants, midgets, one eyed children, k-1 truly has it all.

ahaha. I just had a quick look at K-1 on youtube. I think this is what I will watch.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 16:54

Thermos H Christ: Sep 6, 2007; WINNINGEST BEVO

Gomi Pile posted:

rousimar palhares, demian maia, ricardo almeida

Reports of Maia's one-dimensional game are greatly exaggerated. Sure, BJJ will always be his go-to because he's absurdly great at it, but you can't throw Chael Sonnen around if you have no understanding of wrestling, and his striking's not awful either. Marquardt and Anderson have significantly better striking than him, but that's not such a damning statement.

I think Joe Warren is probably the most one-dimensional MMA fighter who regularly competes on TV these days. Roger Gracie is also be a pretty good candidate.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:02

Gomi Pile: Jan 19, 2011; by Ozmaugh

BlindSite posted:

Right after I posted this I thought of Paul Daley as a pretty pure Muai Thai based striker, probably add Jose Aldo to the mix and Shinya Aoki as a pure grappler.

One could argue too Pat Barry as pretty much a pure striker. As far as definable one style guys, they don't really exist.

jose aldo has a black belt in jiu jitsu from one of the best BJJ academies in the world

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:10

Slaapaav: Mar 3, 2006; by Azathoth

for mma newbies learn this youtube url
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS9vdoX3Ju0

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:13

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

Slaapaav posted:

for mma newbies learn this youtube url
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DS9vdoX3Ju0

the link stay purple but i still click it

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:15

TenaciousJ: Dec 31, 2008; Clown move bro

Ziggy Tsardust posted:

So let me get this straight. There's this family who have been dominant in MMA for decades. No-one can beat them. A plucky young guy who people know little about comes into PRIDE and starts wailing on people left and right. Suddenly, he beats a couple of the members of this undefeatable family who people want to see lose. Not only that, but he does it by using the very same move that was the cause of the last defeat in the family over 40 years ago. The family lose their poo poo about this and bring in their big gun. Not only do they bring in their big gun, but they alter the rules into MMA's version of a no disqualification match in the hopes of crushing this up-and-comer. After 90 minutes of comptition, the young guy finally wins and everyone goes nuts. The Gracies family threw everything they had at him and he came out on top. People are losing their poo poo.

And there are STILL people who think that MMA has nothing in common with wrestling.

I'd just like to say thank you for this thread. I've tried to get into MMA before but found it all a little intimidating. It looks like going through old PRRIDE stuff is best for me.

Sakuraba also was a professional wrestler before he got into MMA. You couldn't book his story vs. the Gracie family any better in pro wrestling than what actually happened, which really adds to my bewilderment of lovely pro wrestling booking.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:31

Mons Public: Jun 22, 2006; Sometimes I look for Rupees.

KidDynamite posted:

Boxing Post

Added to the OP. It would be nice if someone could write a Current History part that explains the situation that boxing is in right now and a little history that told how it got that way. I know the gist of it, but I'd rather someone who follows the sport closely explain it.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:33

fatherdog: Feb 16, 2005

jeffersonlives posted:

Pancrase only broke off from the other UWF remnants a few months before UFC started, and the work percentage for Pancrase fights at the beginning was far higher than later on (same thing with RINGS and even PRIDE).

Before that MMA in the 20th century would have mostly consisted of vale tudo, of which things like records and video are pretty scarce on, and your occasional freak show mixed matches like Inoki/Ali and Gracie/Kimura. If you go back even further to around the turn of the century, the origins of professional wrestling were a shoot and then it starts getting real confusing.

Actually Shooto did their first professional shoot show in 1989. There was no punching on the ground but it was still a legitimate mixed grappling/striking event.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:36

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

RobBorer posted:

Added to the OP. It would be nice if someone could write a Current History part that explains the situation that boxing is in right now and a little history that told how it got that way. I know the gist of it, but I'd rather someone who follows the sport closely explain it.

It's really just greedy promoters and stupid alphabet soup orginizations. The way boxing works today is that if you're a champion you have to pay a fee to the orginization that you hold the belt for if you're going to defend it and so does your opponent. So that basically makes titles meaningless at this point because who honestly wants to pay 50k to fight some scrub that is up in the rankings and a mandatory fight for him. This is how the alaphabet soup titles all came to be. This is why the rankings for none of the titles matter either as they just want a guy that will pay them and they can force the champ to manditorily defend against. Those are the ranking issues. Then the managerial issues are that boxing is run by greedy assholes with bigger egos than the fighters. When you have two top guys that everyone wants to see fight (Floyd v Manny) and they are under different promotion banners it becomes a pissing match to see who can get who to concede to more. This is why a lot of fights don't get made. Then there is the protection factor where managers will keep their fighter fighting journeymen to pad their record so they can get a title shot. Leaving legitimate threats to the top without fights (Paul Williams was in this situation for a long time). These are the major problems with boxing as I see it.

What could remedy all this? An orginization like the UFC I think might work but then you'll end up with tons of others popping up and none of the top guys fighting again. The UFC situation won't work unless you are hyper dominant and that won't happen unless someone wants to invest billions. Maybe a TV deal like the ABC one and every friday night or whatever but people just won't watch. I think the onus is on boxers to stand out and make change like Floyd did when he refused to pay the fee to defend his belt. It's just a very difficult situation. I'd like to here is anyone else has any thoughts as to what could be done to fix boxing.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 17:58

Mons Public: Jun 22, 2006; Sometimes I look for Rupees.

KidDynamite posted:

I'd like to here is anyone else has any thoughts as to what could be done to fix boxing.

Start a new sport that is the exact same thing as boxing, but uses 4 ounce gloves, 3 rounds of 3 minutes, and uses MMA weight classes. Get on HBO, and use a tournament system with exclusive contracts. Sign young talent and build stars while establishing a new culture.

So basically UFC with none of that gay poo poo.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 18:10

Gomi Pile: Jan 19, 2011; by Ozmaugh

Make PBF fight David Haye. That would solve 90% of boxing's problems.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 18:24

kensei: Dec 27, 2007; He has come home, where he belongs. The Ancient Mariner returns to lead his first team to glory, forever and ever. Amen!

I made a thread for listing MMA personality twitter names: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3386398

Please add any you have!

# ? Feb 2, 2011 18:51

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

RobBorer posted:

Start a new sport that is the exact same thing as boxing, but uses 4 ounce gloves, 3 rounds of 3 minutes, and uses MMA weight classes. Get on HBO, and use a tournament system with exclusive contracts. Sign young talent and build stars while establishing a new culture.

So basically UFC with none of that gay poo poo.

That would lead to the most hilarious fights ever and basically machine gun punching as there'd be no fatigue to worry about. I don't like the idea of lowering glove weights either as there would be lots of hand injuries.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 19:13

Grifter: Jul 24, 2003; I do this technique called a suplex. You probably haven't heard of it, it's pretty obscure.

Hockles posted:

Can somebody explain all the different positions of grappling on the ground? I get confused when they are called out in a match.

The first position in BJJ is called the guard.

This is usually referred to as "top guard" or "bottom guard" for the guy on the top and the guy on the bottom respectively. This is considered a neutral position BJJ but isn't neutral in MMA because the guy on top can punch the guy on bottom. Generally speaking, the fighters want to do a few things here. The guy on bottom either wants to work his way back to his feet, or he wants to do what's called a "sweep". A sweep is when the position is reversed so that the guy on bottom ends up on top. The guy on the bottom can also submit his opponent from this position, but that is usually hard to do. The guy on top wants to "pass the guard", which means to move to a position that is better for the top guy. This brings us to the next position.

This is the half-guard. In the half the top fighter now has a better advantage. He is harder to submit and harder to sweep. He has almost passed the guard by working one leg free. He can also usually do more damage with punches because the guy on bottom has less control.

This is side control. The top fighter has now completely passed the guard. This is bad for the guy on bottom, he really wants to escape or return to guard. The guy on top can do a lot of damage from here, see GSP v. Serra II. The top guy can also hit some submissions from here. The guy on the bottom also has to be very careful to not let his opponent swing one leg over, which brings us to the next position.

This is mount. The top fighter can now throw down punches with a lot more intensity without worrying about getting caught in a submission. The fighter on the bottom is in huge trouble, a lot of fights end here. The fighter on top may also have opportunities for submissions.

Finally there is back control. One fighter is on the back of the other. See how the fighter on the back has his legs wrapped around his opponent? This prevents the fighter in front from turning into his opponent. These are called "hooks" and you'll often hear the announcers talking about someone as saying "he's taken the back, one hook is in, he's got the other one in!" That's because having the hooks in makes it much harder to escape back control. From here the fighter in front is very vulnerable to a submission called the "rear naked choke" or the "RNC" or sometimes the "mata leon".

Those are the most common positions. There are 1,001 shades within these, and there are a couple positions that I'm not covering here (north and south, knee on belly) because those are usually transitory positions.

Now let's look at the more common submissions. There are lots more than what I'm covering here. I'll also talk about the positions where these submissions are usually used, but a lot of them can be hit from all sorts of positions.

Armbar

This is one of the most common submissions. The arm is extended straight out, and the goal of the submitter is to get his hips as close to his opponent's shoulder as possible. From there he is able to use the leverage of his hips to hyper extend the arm. This can be hit from all kinds of positions but is most commonly done from guard (below) and mount (above).

Triangle

This is one of the most common chokes in MMA. It is usually performed from guard. It works by trapping an arm inside the guard. One leg is forced against the chokee's neck, the other forces the trapped arm to apply pressure to the opposite side of the neck. This, like almost every choke in MMA, is a blood choke. That means the goal is to cut off bloodflow through the neck to the brain. This is much, much faster than a choke on the airway and will put people out in about 15 to 30 seconds most of the time, sometimes faster. Generally people will tap out before they go out. Googling around looking for a picture for this submission lead me to this blog, where you can go to see the triangle in action.

Guillotine

This is the one exception to the blood chokes rule. The guillotine can be done as both. This one is pretty simple. The aggressor catches the other person's head by wrapping their arm around their neck from above, then cranks on it. This is usually finished by "pulling guard", which means to jump up and wrap the legs around the person getting choked. This lets the choker get a lot more force on his cranking. This can work because it cuts off bloodflow, or because it cuts off airflow, or simply as a neck crank. This also fails quite often where people slip out. The guillotine is most commonly done from none of the positions above, but instead from when someone tries to take down their opponent and gets their neck grabbed for their trouble.

Rear Naked Choke

Wrap one arm around their neck, with their throat centered on the elbow. Grab your own bicep on the opposite arm with the choking arm. Put the non choking arm on the back of their head. Win. This is done from the back position, and it is how most fights are won from that position. Done correctly, it is very very effective. For an idea of how little power this takes, see this video.

Kimura (and its cousin, the Americana)

This is generally done from side control, but it can be done from mount and possibly from the guard. Try this. Take your arm and raise it so that your upper arm is parallel to your shoulders. Raise your forearm and hand so that your elbow has a 90 degree turn. Like this __| Where the two lines are your shoulder and upper arm, then the line pointing up is your forearm. Now, keeping the upper arm and shoulder in line with each other, try to move your hand backwards. Notice how fast you run out of range of motion? If you try to move it further, you can feel your shoulder and upper arm lock up. Keep moving and it gets painful. Now imagine there's some giant sweaty dude on top of you. He has locked your arm in place and has his arm under yours to raise it from the mat, while cranking your upper arm in the direction it doesn't want to go. This has a bunch of names depending on which direction the upper arm is pointing and which martial art you come from - keylock, americana, chicken wing, figure four, ude-garami or double wristlock.

There's a cool story as to how it came to be called the Kimura in BJJ.

Masahiko Kimura posted:

"20,000 people came to see the bout including President of Brazil. Helio was 180cm and 80 kg. When I entered the stadium, I found a coffin. I asked what it was. I was told, "This is for Kimura. Helio brought this in." It was so funny that I almost burst into laughter. As I approached the ring, raw eggs were thrown at me. The gong rang. Helio grabbed me in both lapels, and attacked me with O-soto-gari and Kouchi-gari. But they did not move me at all. Now it's my turn. I blew him away up in the air by O-uchi-gari, Harai-goshi, Uchimata, Ippon-seoi. At about 10 minute mark, I threw him by O-soto-gari. I intended to cause a concussion. But since the mat was so soft that it did not have much impact on him. While continuing to throw him, I was thinking of a finishing method. I threw him by O-soto-gari again. As soon as Helio fell, I pinned him by Kuzure-kami-shiho-gatame. I held still for 2 or 3 minutes, and then tried to smother him by belly. Helio shook his head trying to breathe. He could not take it any longer, and tried to push up my body extending his left arm. That moment, I grabbed his left wrist with my right hand, and twisted up his arm. I applied Udegarami. I thought he would surrender immediately. But Helio would not tap the mat. I had no choice but keep on twisting the arm. The stadium became quiet. The bone of his arm was coming close to the breaking point. Finally, the sound of bone breaking echoed throughout the stadium. Helio still did not surrender. His left arm was already powerless. Under this rule, I had no choice but twist the arm again. There was plenty of time left. I twisted the left arm again. Another bone was broken. Helio still did not tap. When I tried to twist the arm once more, a white towel was thrown in. I won by TKO. My hand was raised high. Japanese Brazilians rushed into the ring and tossed me up in the air. On the other hand, Helio let his left arm hang and looked very sad withstanding the pain."

Arm Triangle

This submission may pop up any time a fighter is mounted, and the fighter on top manages to isolate the arm of his opponent. I'm not great at explaining this stuff, so here's a diagram.

The fighter on top will then rotate his body away from his opponent, this puts a crazy amount of pressure on the fighter on the bottom. It applies the same principles as the triangle (isolated arm, blood choke) but uses the arms instead. You will sometimes here it called "turning the clock" when the fighter rotates to apply pressure.

Those are all the common submissions. There are those that are less common but still happen - kneebars, heel hooks, ankle locks, omoplatas, gogoplatas as well as those that are nearly unique, like the Mir lock. Most subs you see will be one of these, or a variation on one of these.

Warning: While I Do Train, I am still new to BJJ and I'm sure someone may take issue with some of the things I wrote here, they may not be 100% technically perfect but they should be pretty good.

Grifter fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Feb 2, 2011

# ? Feb 2, 2011 19:15

KidDynamite: Feb 11, 2005

Uh North South? Leading to hilarious subs and dick in the face.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 19:22

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 19, 2024 21:22

1st AD: Dec 3, 2004; Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.

I always thought hooks made it easier for you to roll or move around, and to flatten your opponent's body out while attempting an RNC. A body triangle is much more restrictive and also makes it harder for your opponent to breathe.

# ? Feb 2, 2011 19:31

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Combat Sports - General Q and A thread: Why are these fights so boring?

«‹›118 »