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Beeswax posted:So is there anyone who has a legitimate argument for using the ten point must system, apart from "b..but boxing!" I think the decision to use the well known 10 point must system was probably twofold, first its a system judges are familiar with in theroy (even if they don't know how to apply it to MMA) and two, because its been used in boxing for so long it lends a certain air of legitimacy to MMA which was much more important in the past when MMA was still regarded as human cock fighting or whatnot. The problem with the 10 point must system in MMA is that there are more aspects to the game to take into account. In addition to striking, wrestling, ground position you have things like "aggression" and "octagon control" which are completely subjective measures and actually tends to work against good counter strikers who tend to back up to draw their opponents in. So if not much happens in a round and its pretty even, the guy moving forward more will tend to be awarded the round (octagon control), despite the fact that the other fighter may want to be drawing him forward to set him up for a counter. The other issue is that MMA judges are mostly boxing judges and while some of them have managed to develop an understanding of the ground game, you'll still get judges (especially outside of the major commissions like NSAC and CSAC) who just don't know what they're seeing which is why you get guys who spent a large amount of time in top position in a round winning 90% of the time even if their opponent on the bottom is much more active/aggressive. All that said there really are no viable alternatives right now. Open judging which is used in Japan and sometimes Europe comes with its own set of problems, and the retarded dewey decimel system that they're trying out in Cali right now doesn't really address the problems of the 10 point system while making it needlessly more complicated.
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Feb 3, 2011 12:09
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A Pale Horse posted:you have things like "aggression" and "octagon control" which are completely subjective measures and actually tends to work against good counter strikers who tend to back up to draw their opponents in. Compare and contrast to the "ring generalship" and "effective aggressiveness" criteria in boxing.
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Feb 3, 2011 12:12
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kimbo305 posted:Compare and contrast to the "ring generalship" and "effective aggressiveness" criteria in boxing. I don't follow boxing so I didn't know they use those criteria too 
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Feb 3, 2011 12:36
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Is Daniel Puder still going? Last I heard he was in Strikeforce. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RBWFhlCyk8
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Feb 3, 2011 14:55
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I just watched a couple of k-1 matches on yt between Andy Hug and Mike Bernardo. I think I'm an Andy Hug fan. I like his silly name, the fact that he looks like an action movie star and his video game moveset (AN AXE KICK!?). The second fight was kind of anti-climactic though. He just kicked the dude's legs til he couldn't stand anymore.
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Feb 3, 2011 15:35
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Ghost Head posted:I just watched a couple of k-1 matches on yt between Andy Hug and Mike Bernardo. I think I'm an Andy Hug fan. I like his silly name, the fact that he looks like an action movie star and his video game moveset (AN AXE KICK!?). The second fight was kind of anti-climactic though. He just kicked the dude's legs til he couldn't stand anymore. Son, take a seat. We have to have a talk. 
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Feb 3, 2011 15:43
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Beeswax posted:So is there anyone who has a legitimate argument for using the ten point must system, apart from "b..but boxing!" No other judging system used in mma so far has produced better judging outcomes than the 10 point must system, and several have done worse.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:25
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RobBorer posted:Son, take a seat. We have to have a talk. He appears to be dead. What an incredible shame, especially at that age. According to his bio on Wikipedia, he beat cro-cop (even I know who this guy is) only a couple of months before dying of cancer. Amazing. He would have been a legend if he isn't already considered one.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:31
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Ghost Head posted:He appears to be dead. What an incredible shame, especially at that age. According to his bio on Wikipedia, he beat cro-cop (even I know who this guy is) only a couple of months before dying of cancer. Amazing. He would have been a legend if he isn't already considered one. iirc his ashes are actually in a shrine in Japan. He was a hardcore Kyokushin guy who competed at the very highest level of kickboxing at a time when it was quite popular; they loving loved him over there.
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Feb 3, 2011 16:34
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All four Hug/Hoost fights are outstanding. You should watch Hug/Crocop as well. Andy Hug owns.
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Feb 3, 2011 17:22
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Does anyone have the link to that Sergei video with the terminator music?
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Feb 3, 2011 17:50
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d98FVQuOGjA This one?
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Feb 3, 2011 17:53
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That's exactly the one. I was despondent when it wasn't in my favorites, and any combination of search results for 'k-1', 'dog' 'cool' and 'sergei' all yielded nothing.
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Feb 3, 2011 17:58
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fatherdog posted:If K-1 is gonna decide that knockdown vs Remy didn't count because he was kicking at the time, then Buakaw should have another win vs Masato and another win vs Kraus. do tell Coitus_Interruptus posted:Word, you might not think its a knockdown, and thats fine. The issue there is that Kakuda, and the rest of the K1 Refs regularly reward knockdowns for exactly the same kind of blows on a regular basis. im with you that kakuda is going to hell for an abundance of reasons, but that fight was a bad example imo. i have the 2nd round 10-10, but thats beside the point.
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Feb 3, 2011 18:06
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Paul Pot posted:do tell I did.
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Feb 3, 2011 18:17
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glad we're on the same page then
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Feb 3, 2011 19:21
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Saw this posted in the gif thread:Boregasm posted:If you think falling on your face is bad... And it made me wonder - Crocop is obviously knocked out when he goes down (complete with arms completely spread apart not guarding himself at all) and his opponent continues throwing punches to the face anyway while the official pulls him off - is this a common thing where the guy gets caught up in the moment with the adrenaline or do guys do that on purpose? Seems like a trained fighter would know right away when a guy is legit knocked out so its always seemed weird to me that they get a few shots in before being pulled off anyway.
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Feb 3, 2011 20:22
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Mr. Carlisle posted:Saw this posted in the gif thread: The general rule is go until the ref stops it. Sometimes if its a clean one shot knockout the guy won't follow it up, but its not officially over until the ref waves it off, so you'll occasionally see fighters beating their completely unconscious opponents for a few extra seconds "just to make sure". edit: same goes with submissions. You don't release the hold until the ref waves off the fight, not when you feel your opponent tapping out. This is why having good refs is extremely important in MMA, even more so than in other combat sports.
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Feb 3, 2011 20:27
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Some dudes (CB Dollaway iirc) fake-tap somewhere where the ref doesn't see it but the other fighter feels it, so if the one doing the submitting then lets go they keep fighting.
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Feb 3, 2011 20:33
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A Pale Horse posted:The general rule is go until the ref stops it. Sometimes if its a clean one shot knockout the guy won't follow it up, but its not officially over until the ref waves it off, so you'll occasionally see fighters beating their completely unconscious opponents for a few extra seconds "just to make sure". Ah, that makes sense. It initially just seemed weird that he got three shots in completely unprotected at the end there and I didn't know if it was due to a heated rivalry and that was the exclamation point on the knockout or if it was due to rules like you explained. niethan posted:Some dudes (CB Dollaway iirc) fake-tap somewhere where the ref doesn't see it but the other fighter feels it, so if the one doing the submitting then lets go they keep fighting. That's a pretty shifty tactic - does that happen often?
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Feb 3, 2011 20:36
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Mr. Carlisle posted:Seems like a trained fighter would know right away when a guy is legit knocked out This is untrue a lot more often than you'd think.
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Feb 3, 2011 20:56
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the not stopping until the ref breaks it up dates all the way back to UFC 1 when Gracie choked Shamrock, let go when he felt a tap and then there was a big argument if he tapped or not because the ref never saw it happen.
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Feb 3, 2011 21:00
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Xguard86 posted:the not stopping until the ref breaks it up dates all the way back to UFC 1 when Gracie choked Shamrock, let go when he felt a tap and then there was a big argument if he tapped or not because the ref never saw it happen. Which is hilarious because it was one of the most conspicuous taps I have ever seen.
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Feb 3, 2011 22:08
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Mr. Carlisle posted:Ah, that makes sense. It initially just seemed weird that he got three shots in completely unprotected at the end there and I didn't know if it was due to a heated rivalry and that was the exclamation point on the knockout or if it was due to rules like you explained. Not really. Well, I guess if done well the audience doesn't notice so maybe it happens way more often than I think, but even by professional fighter standards it's an rear end in a top hat thing to do. It also rarely works. The only high profile fighter I can think of who's known for doing it is Matt Lindland and his Team Quest buddies. You can see his training partner and noted rear end in a top hat Chael Sonnen try to pull it in his fight against Silva, but the ref spots it and counts it. It's just a lovely desperation move that you do if you're a prick and you're about to lose.
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Feb 3, 2011 23:05
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attackmole posted:Not really. Well, I guess if done well the audience doesn't notice so maybe it happens way more often than I think, but even by professional fighter standards it's an rear end in a top hat thing to do. It also rarely works. The only high profile fighter I can think of who's known for doing it is Matt Lindland and his Team Quest buddies. You can see his training partner and noted rear end in a top hat Chael Sonnen try to pull it in his fight against Silva, but the ref spots it and counts it. Conversely though it's not overly uncommon to see a guy tapping two or three times, then much more overtly when the ref doesn't notice it.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:01
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BlindSite posted:Conversely though it's not overly uncommon to see a guy tapping two or three times, then much more overtly when the ref doesn't notice it. This goes back to MMA being regulated by boxing imbeciles, though. If MMA had more competent refs it wouldn't be much of an issue, you rarely see guys who actually know MMA like Herb Dean missing taps because they know how submissions work and put themselves in appropriate positions to see it. Unfortunately athletic commissions are just as corrupt and nepotistic as any government endeavor that doesn't really answer to anyone.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:10
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On the flip side of the coin, I love that Hendu knew for a fact that he had just put Bisping out, and yet dropped the follow-up mortar strike to his face to "shut his mouth." That was my only UFC PPV and that one moment made it worth the money and then some.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:35
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fatherdog posted:No other judging system used in mma so far has produced better judging outcomes than the 10 point must system  Mr. Carlisle posted:Ah, that makes sense. It initially just seemed weird that he got three shots in completely unprotected at the end there and I didn't know if it was due to a heated rivalry and that was the exclamation point on the knockout or if it was due to rules like you explained.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:38
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Ghost Head posted:I just watched a couple of k-1 matches on yt between Andy Hug and Mike Bernardo. I think I'm an Andy Hug fan. I like his silly name Man I'm like Nancy Regan in here with the nagging, but I just want to make it known that his last name is pronounced Hoog.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:41
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Zwachro posted:I sort of want to cite Nogueira-Rodriguez as a counterexample here. At least I recall being okay with the outcome (Nog won due to the 'effort to finish' criterium which was more explicit under PRIDE rules than under Must) while I also was fine with Fedor winning with basically the same strategy (sit on top of Nog and avoid subs) only with more punches to the face. On the other hand it's been ages since I watched the fights in question and I had a bit of a PRIDE bias at the time. Which the judges also may have had, what with Ricco essentially being an UFC guy. PRIDE produced as many lovely decisions and boring fights as our current systems. The only things we need to borrow from PRIDE are Lenne Hardt, and insanely rad production quality. Seriously, that Gladiator is just an insult at this point.
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Feb 4, 2011 00:51
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Indeed! But in that specific case I felt like Must judging would've been worse. Overall, any system one could come up with will most likely be susceptible to subjectivity and bias. e: Although discouraging draws is just dumb and more of a systemic error, as it currently stands. Zwachro fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 00:55
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Zwachro posted:I sort of want to cite Nogueira-Rodriguez as a counterexample here. At least I recall being okay with the outcome (Nog won due to the 'effort to finish' criterium which was more explicit under PRIDE rules than under Must) Nog won due to the "Being the guy we want to win" criterion, as evidenced by the fact that there is not a single other fight in PRIDE history where a guy dominated position and lost a decision, despite the fact that Arona and Sherk both fought in Pride.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:14
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yeah the Nog Ricco decision is still baffling, and it was such bullshit they actually had matt hume come to the annoucing booth to rationalize it for the audience the only difference between Ricco/Nog and Fedor/Nog 1 is that Nog could move his body for the Ricco fight, actually did effective escapes against Fedor, and got hit by slightly more GNP by Fedor
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Feb 4, 2011 01:22
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Hey fatherdog, what do you think of an offtopic PSP Thread, similer to the Paulo Wanchope Memorial in Ray Parlour to contain all of the off topic and generic bullshit we get into on a regular basis in our other threads?
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Feb 4, 2011 01:24
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Coitus_Interruptus posted:Hey fatherdog, what do you think of an offtopic PSP Thread, similer to the Paulo Wanchope Memorial in Ray Parlour to contain all of the off topic and generic bullshit we get into on a regular basis in our other threads? I reckon that between events mma news isn't so fast that the off-topic bullshit really becomes a problem, and frankly the digressions that organically arise from long threads tend to be a lot more tolerable than the morass of poo poo that off-topic threads usually turn into, so I don't think we really need one at the moment. If things change over the next few weeks/months I'm open to being convinced otherwise.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:30
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How long are Jon Jones's arms? They look pretty long.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:49
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Jack Anderson posted:How long are Jon Jones's arms? They look pretty long. 84.5"
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Feb 4, 2011 01:58
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I think Jones has the longest reach currently, longer even that 6'11" Stefan Struve.
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Feb 4, 2011 02:09
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reach is wingspan, not just length of arms
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Feb 4, 2011 02:12
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the ufc doesn't measure reach in a consistent way in any event, which is nicely illustrated by GSP's morphing arm lengths
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Feb 4, 2011 02:15
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