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Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



Bundt Cake posted:

the ufc doesn't measure reach in a consistent way in any event, which is nicely illustrated by GSP's morphing arm lengths

Thats the athletic commission's shortcoming not the UFC's

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Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(

Coitus_Interruptus posted:

Thats the athletic commission's shortcoming not the UFC's

the ufc displays the reach on the tale of the tape. they could measure the mother fuckers arms if they wanted to

BlindSite
Feb 8, 2009

Bundt Cake posted:

the ufc displays the reach on the tale of the tape. they could measure the mother fuckers arms if they wanted to

You're just pickin' fights today aren't ya.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 7, 2010

by R. Guyovich
Three questions:

How does judo typically fare in MMA? I'm taking a judo course next quarter because the trips and throws look cool, but it seems like as a discipline it sits at an unhappy medium in the MMA world.

What's the deal with It's Showtime rules? They seem K-1 inspired, but...not. Like why are spinning backfists illegal?

Also, how is it that It's Showtime has such amazing 70kg fighters and a champion I've never heard of? I don't get why Andy Souwer or Giorgio Petrosyan can't be bothered to fight for the belt.

henkman
Oct 8, 2008

Jack of Hearts posted:

How does judo typically fare in MMA? I'm taking a judo course next quarter because the trips and throws look cool, but it seems like as a discipline it sits at an unhappy medium in the MMA world.

Like Gi BJJ, it relies a lot on the opponent having a Gi to do a lot of the moves. And in most MMA promotions they won't let you wear a Gi. So while some the moves will work, some won't. Wrestling is a better way to get the fight to the ground.

Gomi Pile
Jan 19, 2011

by Ozmaugh

Jack of Hearts posted:

Three questions:

How does judo typically fare in MMA? I'm taking a judo course next quarter because the trips and throws look cool, but it seems like as a discipline it sits at an unhappy medium in the MMA world.

What's the deal with It's Showtime rules? They seem K-1 inspired, but...not. Like why are spinning backfists illegal?

Also, how is it that It's Showtime has such amazing 70kg fighters and a champion I've never heard of? I don't get why Andy Souwer or Giorgio Petrosyan can't be bothered to fight for the belt.

badly. really badly. pawel natsula and hidehiko yoshida were the best judoka to ever compete in mma, and they were basically fed to the wolves.

Triticum Guzzler
Jun 16, 2002

Jack of Hearts posted:

Three questions:

How does judo typically fare in MMA? I'm taking a judo course next quarter because the trips and throws look cool, but it seems like as a discipline it sits at an unhappy medium in the MMA world.

What's the deal with It's Showtime rules? They seem K-1 inspired, but...not. Like why are spinning backfists illegal?

Also, how is it that It's Showtime has such amazing 70kg fighters and a champion I've never heard of? I don't get why Andy Souwer or Giorgio Petrosyan can't be bothered to fight for the belt.

The trips fare better than the throws, the grips are obviously all different. You have so many options with the gi but without it it's pretty much over/under, double unders, and underhook and wrist control. Miura/Condit is a great display of judo in MMA

Because the K-1 rule is well intentioned but unenforcable. It's a foul in K-1 to throw a spinning backfist if you miss and hit with the forearm, but a ref can't really determine that in real time.

It's not completely analogous but that's kind of like asking why Fedor isn't the M-1 champion. It's only really in the last year that It's Showtime has started making much noise. Rutz manages a lot of the guys who fight on his cards, and both he and his fighters make more money having them fight in K-1.

Also non-title fights and a regional event structure.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



EDIT Post time: 22:54 GOD loving DAMNIT DUNCAN HOW DO YOU ALWAYS DO THAT TO ME. Its like some loving wizardry man you regular beat me posting eerily similar things by loving seconds. :argh:

Jack of Hearts posted:

What's the deal with It's Showtime rules? They seem K-1 inspired, but...not. Like why are spinning backfists illegal?

Just stop even trying to figure out why K1, Showtime, or anyone else does anything with the rules and be happier about. The weird rule changes, clinching in K1 no back fists in Showtime, all come back to the same thing. Some important guy, somewhere in the organizations thinks it will make for "more exciting" fights for some or many wrong, stupid, and meaningless reasons.

Jack of Hearts posted:

Also, how is it that It's Showtime has such amazing 70kg fighters and a champion I've never heard of? I don't get why Andy Souwer or Giorgio Petrosyan can't be bothered to fight for the belt.

Showtime having the money and exposure to bring out big guns is a relatively new thing so give it some time for their Champions to reflect that.

Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Feb 4, 2011

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
When he was a better fighter, Karo Parisyan had some decent no-gi grip techniques. His osoto gari (and other techniques that would normally involve gripping the sleeve) was done by using the uke's tricep as a handle and tossing him that way.

Gomi Pile
Jan 19, 2011

by Ozmaugh
high level judo is really about getting one or two really good throws, while avoiding getting thrown. there is a lot of general grappling training, but it really boils down to being able to establish and maintain good grips and having good hips and footwork. a good wrestler will always beat a good judoka.

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 7, 2010

by R. Guyovich

Gomi Pile posted:

a good wrestler will always beat a good judoka.

That's the sense I've always gotten from watching judo guys fight in MMA. Then on the ground they seem to have some useful techniques but BJJ ground technique is way more developed. So that's what I meant by unhappy medium.

Triticum Guzzler
Jun 16, 2002

Gomi Pile posted:

high level judo is really about getting one or two really good throws, while avoiding getting thrown. there is a lot of general grappling training, but it really boils down to being able to establish and maintain good grips and having good hips and footwork. a good wrestler will always beat a good judoka.

on the other hand, a Literal Lifetime of training in judo gives you one or two really cool things on your highlight (in fights that you lost)

Tacky-Ass Rococco
Sep 7, 2010

by R. Guyovich

Coitus_Interruptus posted:

Just stop even trying to figure out why K1, Showtime, or anyone else does anything with the rules and be happier about. The weird rule changes, clinching in K1 no back fists in Showtime, all come back to the same thing. Some important guy, somewhere in the organizations thinks it will make for "more exciting" fights for some or many wrong, stupid, and meaningless reasons.

It's Showtime still allows knees aplenty, so I'm not about to complain about their ruleset. Somebody in another thread just mentioned the Korean Zombie losing by knocking out Pajonsuk with a spinning backfist, which I thought was really weird.

(Poor Korean Zombie, what a terrible year he had. Lost by knocking a guy out, lost by Garcia, lost by sudden disappearance of his zombie abilities.)

And actually the explanation given of how a spinning backfist can turn into something illegal really easily makes sense and is something I've wondered about in K-1. At the wrong range it's a spinning elbow.

cucka
Nov 4, 2009

TOUCHDOWN DETROIT LIONS
Sorry about all
the bad posting.
For the boxing oriented fan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmE4DHPrrnk

Very good(aside from overused Clint Mansell music) and wide spanning, time wise. I like this particular video because it shows just how brutal old boxing matches could be.

Probably a very good video for beginning fans who want to get names to look up (Every featured fighter is listed with a picture at the end) and check out the more interesting past of the sport compared to it's current, sad state of affairs.

This thread is excellent. I know a bit about MMA and welcome the chance to learn more. I initially wasn't sure how this whole mixed subforum thing would work, but it seems like a good opportunity for both sides to gain some knowledge of the other (WH2K poster.)

We are two people with one common history, and all that.

Ciprian Maricon
Feb 27, 2006



Two gay sports, forever linked :allears:

cucka
Nov 4, 2009

TOUCHDOWN DETROIT LIONS
Sorry about all
the bad posting.
May spooning lead to an RNC, and tapping within our time.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
A ballshot joke in another thread has me wondering, what's the largest/bulkiest groin protection that you can use and still be legal? Forget comfort or range of motion -- what would the athletic commissions let you wear?

Bundt Cake
Aug 17, 2003
;(
for united states people here's a list of fun-to-awesome fights you can watch right now courtesy of the UFC

http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-6-clay-guida-roger-huerta
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-7-luigi-fioravanti-diego-sanchez
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-2-nick-diaz-diego-sanchez
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-9-clay-guida-diego-sanchez
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-11-aaron-simpson-chris-leben
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-1-forrest-griffin-stephan-bonnar
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-5-gray-maynard-nate-diaz
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-5-joe-lauzon-cole-miller
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-7-drew-mcfedries-marvin-eastman
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-8-vinny-magalhaes-ryan-bader
http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-10-jon-jones-matt-hamill

Xguard86
Nov 22, 2004

"You don't understand his pain. Everywhere he goes he sees women working, wearing pants, speaking in gatherings, voting. Surely they will burn in the white hot flames of Hell"

kimbo305 posted:

A ballshot joke in another thread has me wondering, what's the largest/bulkiest groin protection that you can use and still be legal? Forget comfort or range of motion -- what would the athletic commissions let you wear?

I guess you could wear a steel diaper if you wanted to, but I think your range of motion would be so constricted it would not work out.

Paul Pot
Mar 4, 2010

by Y Kant Ozma Post
boxing style protectors are probably outlawed, but who would want to wear those on the ground anyway?

DumbWhiteGuy
Jul 4, 2007

You need haters. Fellas if you got 20 haters, you need 40 of them motherfuckers. If there's any haters in here that don't have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me

Bundt Cake posted:

for united states people here's a list of fun-to-awesome fights you can watch right now courtesy of the UFC

http://www.ultimatefighter.com/fight-videos/tuf-6-clay-guida-roger-huerta

This is the best fight I've ever seen based 100% on the fight. It had almost no relevance to anything, and I'm not a big fan of either fighter, but the fight itself is loving awesome.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

DumbWhiteGuy posted:

This is the best fight I've ever seen based 100% on the fight. It had almost no relevance to anything, and I'm not a big fan of either fighter, but the fight itself is loving awesome.

Beginning of the third round staredown is awesome because both guys look like they're psyching themselves up to kill the other dude with their teeth.

K.Y. Jelly Donut
Jan 2, 2009

Jack of Hearts posted:



How does judo typically fare in MMA? I'm taking a judo course next quarter because the trips and throws look cool, but it seems like as a discipline it sits at an unhappy medium in the MMA world.


There is a handful of Judo guys at a gym where I work who are training hard and I am told do fairly well at local shooto and mma comps. They have modified a couple of the throws to include following down onto the mat and always seem to do really well at positioning after the throw, lots of easy side control and the like. That and a little thai style grappling strikes seems to work pretty well for them.

Of course this is Australia and the standard of wrestling over here is amazingly bad. Maybe if they were playing with some college level wrestlers or the like they would get steam rolled.

I would love to do some Judo at some point, it may not be the most effective use of your time if you are on a quest to become the most dangerous man in the world but it is certainly better than not doing anything.

Orange Carlisle
Jul 14, 2007

With UFC being the only major game in town in some markets do they use some sort of certain method for releasing under performing fighters? Is there some sort of set number of losses that put a fighter into the red zone or something like that?

I assume at this point that they more or less have their pick of talent, right?

Bubba Smith
Sep 27, 2004

Is tonight the greatest moment in Dominick Cruz's life?

No.

The greatest moment in my life was realizing that I didn't need a belt to be happy.

Mr. Carlisle posted:

With UFC being the only major game in town in some markets do they use some sort of certain method for releasing under performing fighters? Is there some sort of set number of losses that put a fighter into the red zone or something like that?

I assume at this point that they more or less have their pick of talent, right?

It varies from fighter to fighter. Keith Jardine was given 4 losses in a row before he was cut from the promotion, meanwhile there was recent controversy over the release of Gerald Harris who was cut after his first loss in the promotion (3-1 UFC record).

What it comes down to is their drawing power (if they have a "name"), how well they perform in a fight (if they put on exciting shows), and what their relationship with the bosses are. But if you put on a crap performance you can be sure Dana White will "set an example" with your release.

ForbiddenWonder
Feb 15, 2003

more words about boxing, tia. where do I find decent quality boxing videos with english commentary? youtube is pretty hit and miss. I really like those HBO specials where they turn the fight into a documentary after the fact.

1st AD
Dec 3, 2004

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: sometimes passing just isn't an option.

Mr. Carlisle posted:

With UFC being the only major game in town in some markets do they use some sort of certain method for releasing under performing fighters? Is there some sort of set number of losses that put a fighter into the red zone or something like that?

I assume at this point that they more or less have their pick of talent, right?

Unless you're popular or put on exciting fights, losing 2 in a row is generally enough to get you cut. Some guys might get more fights to turn it around, like Dan Miller or Mac Danzig. On the other hand, if a guy is known to have problems putting on good fights, making weight, or generally being difficult to work with, they can get cut after 1 loss. Efrain Escudero and Gerald Harris are two recent examples.

workinonit
Jul 11, 2009
A couple of quick questions:

What the hell has happened to Heath Herring? Not that I particularly give a poo poo, but he hasn't fought since getting rodeo'd by Brock Lesnar.

Also, was Matt Hughes as big a favourite going on to the Royce Gracie fight as I imagine he might have been? I wasn't watching at the time, so it's hard for me to gauge at what stage of their career each fighter was when that fight happened.

workinonit fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 5, 2011

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

BAEST MODE!!!
It also depends on the division. Lightweight has an absurd number of fighters after the WEC split, so even if your last three is Loss, Win, Loss, there is a good chance you are getting cut.

If you are in the Heavyweight, Featherweight or Bantamweight divisions you have more leeway because the divisions are thinner. Trash heavyweights will be given multiple losses due to depth, and will be brought back quickly if there is a glimmer of hope, or an open spot on a Canadian show. The same will likely be true at 135 and 145 until they fully raid Japan and Bellator.

Canadians will almost always be able to either get a quick second chance or be kept around as nationalistic prelim fodder on Canadian shows.

Mons Public
Jun 22, 2006

Sometimes I look for Rupees.

nationalista posted:

What the hell has happened to Heath Herring? Not that I particularly give a poo poo, but he hasn't fought since getting rodeo'd by Brock Lesnar.

Coming over from Pride, he was highly thought of, despite not having any great skills. He almost beat Nogueira in their third fight, he beat Kongo pretty decisively(and this was before Kongo was a joke), and it seemed like he was only getting better. Unfortunately the Heavyweight Division went from being a huge joke to a slightly less huge joke and he went from contender to gatekeeper pretty fast. Combine that with him getting roles in B movies that paid just as well as fighting, and Herring decided to retire.

quote:

Also, was Matt Hughes as big a favourite going on to the Royce Gracie fight as I imagine he might have been? I wasn't watching at the time, so it's hard for me to gauge at what stage of their career each fighter was at when that fight happened.

For most people, it was pretty obvious that Hughes was going to win. He was huge compared to Royce, had great wrestling and had been a dominant champion for years.

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

RobBorer posted:

Combine that with him getting roles in B movies that paid just as well as fighting, and Herring decided to retire.

Heath hasn't actually officially retired and even has a fight left on his contract, but he's focusing on movie work right now. He was in three movies last year and he's scheduled for four this year, so even on lovely B-movie pay scales he's probably making more than he would fighting for significantly less work.

CarlCX
Dec 14, 2003

RobBorer posted:

For most people, it was pretty obvious that Hughes was going to win. He was huge compared to Royce, had great wrestling and had been a dominant champion for years.

The advertising did its job really well--current fans were aware of this, but I knew a whole bunch of old-school fans that had heard of or seen some of the original UFCs and never bothered again, and after seeing it they were not only interested in the fight, but were convinced that Royce would probably win just like he used to.

projecthalaxy
Dec 27, 2008

Yes hello it is I Kurt's Secret Son


Is there a clear winner for longest, most impressive/pathetic ducking of one fight in MMA? I mean we have a whole thread on Fedor ducking Overeem, Diaz ducking Mayhem comes up a lot, is there some clear historical best duck?

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

projecthalaxy posted:

Is there a clear winner for longest, most impressive/pathetic ducking of one fight in MMA? I mean we have a whole thread on Fedor ducking Overeem, Diaz ducking Mayhem comes up a lot, is there some clear historical best duck?

Tamura/Sakuraba lasted quite a while; Saku was calling him out as early as 2003 iirc and the match didn't get made till like 2008

Fedor was originally supposed to fight Crocop in 2003 and that wound up getting staved off till around 2005

Triticum Guzzler
Jun 16, 2002
How long did Tito duck Chuck? That seemed like the standard bearer for a long time

fatherdog
Feb 16, 2005

Giovanni Qobras posted:

How long did Tito duck Chuck? That seemed like the standard bearer for a long time

That was around 2 or 3 years as I recall, although it certainly wins points for blatancy. "I won't fight Chuck, we're good friends and we have a pact!" "No we're not and no we don't." "Uh... give me more money! A lot more money!"

JayBulworth
Apr 1, 2010
There's a lot of noise out there about how MMA is stealing the thunder from boxing, but I'm not sure I see it. When I was a kid in the 90's, a lot of my friends were into pro wrestling and we "graduated" to MMA as adults. Sweet chin music and sleeper holds were traded in for left high kicks and rear naked chokes.

I actually think pro wrestling has been more affected by the rise of MMA than boxing has. Can anyone shed some light on this situation?

MassRafTer
May 26, 2001

BAEST MODE!!!

JayBulworth posted:

There's a lot of noise out there about how MMA is stealing the thunder from boxing, but I'm not sure I see it. When I was a kid in the 90's, a lot of my friends were into pro wrestling and we "graduated" to MMA as adults. Sweet chin music and sleeper holds were traded in for left high kicks and rear naked chokes.

I actually think pro wrestling has been more affected by the rise of MMA than boxing has. Can anyone shed some light on this situation?

There is a lot of truth to this. I believe UFC has commissioned some surveys of its fanbase and found they poached a great deal of wrestling fans during the first seasons of The Ultimate Fighter. Beyond that as UFC's PPV business has reached absurd heights in the last 3 years, WWE's has plummeted. When WWE runs live events in a city during the same time period UFC has run a major event, their gates suffer. This is also a time when WWE's median TV audience is getting older and older as UFC captures more of the 18-35 audience.

JayBulworth
Apr 1, 2010
I sorta had the same opinion myself but never had the motivation to look for the facts to back it up.

For me, the decline of boxing happened independently of the rise of MMA. Even when I was a kid, my parents - both of whom are huge sports fans, only watched one big boxing match a year. It's still that way today with Pac and Mayweather for a lot of casual fans.

To me, the reason why the 18-35 crowd doesn't follow boxing is because very few of us grew up with it as something we cared about. Boxing did not promote itself very well to young people in the 90's. Truth be told, through MMA, I've actually discovered that I enjoy boxing immensely but very few people in my age group follow it. I have one friend who's a fellow boxing fan and he's hardcore - his father grew up with the Grant Brothers who run gyms out of Montreal. All my other friends that are into MMA on the other hand were hardcore wrestling fans growing up.

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Beeswax
Dec 29, 2005

Grimey Drawer
What's up with the Bones Jones "snitches" thing?

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