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Ugh Why did you have to chose Billy Herrington of all things? I had to look him up again...
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Feb 28, 2011 08:39
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Neither of these things would support what you said (indeed the second one is the direct opposite, depending on what you meant by "material") You determine the quality of the debate by your level of participation.
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Feb 28, 2011 10:01
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Zorak posted:... code is a pretty straight forward thing, man. I think its worth mentioning that in the real world, scientist have hypothesized that computer AIs of the future will be so complicated that virtually no single individual will understand what makes them tick.
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Feb 28, 2011 17:59
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Watermelon Daiquiri posted:Ugh Why did you have to chose Billy Herrington of all things? I had to look him up again... All according to plan. 
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Feb 28, 2011 18:05
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Turns out this is a perfect game for playing on a netbook.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:15
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Kashwashwa posted:Turns out this is a perfect game for playing on a netbook. Wrong, it doesn't have a keypad. My immersion!
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Feb 28, 2011 18:16
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Sam. posted:I just got Shifter and there are a total of 7 people on all multiplayer servers right now. That's pretty good for a game that's over 10 years old and didn't even ship with multiplayer.
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Feb 28, 2011 18:20
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FlightyMcWenis posted:That's not really true is it? People 'liked' Stalin, and in some bizarre way he is still seen as a champion of Russian natioanlism but certainly people didn't like the regime as a whole. quote:It was even then the 'good' Stalin and the bad, corrupt people around him. More importantly, though Stalin maintained a personality cult, he was quickly forgotten and Kruschev had little trouble packing him up and putting him in a warehouse of Russian memory. quote:As for the Ukranians and others, they never liked Stalin on any level. ... Point being, you can starve abuse and jail your population, and still be adored by everyone not currently starving in jail. And even some of those. (case in point, North Korea)
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Feb 28, 2011 18:52
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I just had a brainwave. The little beep sound made when someone starts transmitting to you in game would probably make a good text tone and would absolutely make a good alert tone, the problem is I don't know where to find it or isolate it...
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Mar 1, 2011 04:50
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Revener posted:So you're telling me that just because it happens nearly all of the time doesn't mean it's a basic characteristic of mankind? Lots of things that have been regarded as "basic characteristics of mankind" because they happened "nearly all the time" are now regarded as archaisms or at least very distasteful. Assuming that something is inevitable just because that's how it happens now is silly, humans aren't some simple mechanical process which will go on the same way forever. Revener posted:It seems like all you're saying is "No that's not the case because nobody can tell the future and anything can happen Oh please.
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Mar 1, 2011 19:28
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FlightyMcWenis posted:Why don't they? Elaborate. This sentence is gainsaying, not an argument. I still stand by what I said, but I don't really have any disagreement with your larger argument so I'll drop it.
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Mar 1, 2011 19:28
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Red Crown posted:I just had a brainwave. The little beep sound made when someone starts transmitting to you in game would probably make a good text tone and would absolutely make a good alert tone, the problem is I don't know where to find it or isolate it... It's probably in System/DeusExSounds.u or System/DeusExUI.u. You'll need the DX editing tools (or generic Unreal Engine ones, I think) to unpack them. Mine was the TriOptimum Incoming V-Mail sound from System Shock for a while. 
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Mar 1, 2011 19:35
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Red Crown posted:I just had a brainwave. The little beep sound made when someone starts transmitting to you in game would probably make a good text tone and would absolutely make a good alert tone, the problem is I don't know where to find it or isolate it... Here you go http://www.mediafire.com/?3zx2tkmb53cj6fp Edit: and yes it's found in deusexsounds under the system folder.
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Mar 1, 2011 19:46
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Lots of things that have been regarded as "basic characteristics of mankind" because they happened "nearly all the time" are now regarded as archaisms or at least very distasteful. Assuming that something is inevitable just because that's how it happens now is silly, humans aren't some simple mechanical process which will go on the same way forever. Please cite examples of things that have been regarded as "basic characteristics of mankind" that were backed by thousands of years of hard evidence and were then proven not to be, I'm just so eager to hear what "lots of things" means. And you're wrong on the fact that humans aren't mechanical processes, we're precisely as mechanical as any computer. Please cite at least one non-mechanical (and we're loosely grouping chemistry in here since it's the biological equivalent to mechanics) process humans perform and I will be happy to show you the mechanics behind it. MrL_JaKiri posted:Oh please. Don't deflect it, that's exactly what you're saying.
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Mar 2, 2011 01:12
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Revener posted:And you're wrong on the fact that humans aren't mechanical processes, we're precisely as mechanical as any computer. Please cite at least one non-mechanical (and we're loosely grouping chemistry in here since it's the biological equivalent to mechanics) process humans perform and I will be happy to show you the mechanics behind it. Just because something has a biological cause doesn't mean behaviour heavily abstracted from it is immutable or totally justified. The only biological imperatives we operate on are the ones we need to reproduce; basically, keeping our bodies alive long enough to breed. Genes don't give a gently caress what happens after that. Pretty much every single modern society oriented around capitalism, an idea arguably evolved from millennia of competition over scarce resources between separate groups and individuals. This is social conditioning, not biological necessity. Considering we now live in a society where you can feed yourself, sleep somewhere warm and get laid even at the very bottom rungs, genes aren't a relevant factor anymore. quote:Don't deflect it, that's exactly what you're saying. There's nothing wrong with the idea that, if a society formed free of inequality, scarcity and competition for prestige or wealth, you wouldn't have concepts like greed. It's entirely possible. It's another thing to say whether it's likely, but that's another argument completely. Zeerust fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 02:41
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Frankosity posted:Just because something has a biological cause doesn't mean behaviour heavily abstracted from it is immutable or totally justified. The only biological imperatives we operate on are the ones we need to reproduce; basically, keeping our bodies alive long enough to breed. Genes don't give a gently caress what happens after that. That's really not how genes work, actually. That's how natural selection works, but genetics are way more complex than "people want to gently caress". They're two totally separate things. Wanting to have things, for example, is a genetic trait, passed on because people who didn't give a poo poo about having and keeping stuff tended to die out, RE: The Grasshopper and the Ant. If we didn't have that switch in our bodies telling us to get things and hold on to them no matter what, we'd have died out as a species. Of course, now we live in a society where that's no longer necessary, we don't NEED to have tons of things, but we still have a genetic want to obtain things, because it's simply in our nature. So we sate that urge with fancy cars and houses and becoming CEOs who make ludicrous amounts of money, because that caveman switch in our brain says that if we don't have enough stuff, we won't be able to survive the winter.
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Mar 2, 2011 03:23
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Revener posted:Please cite examples of things that have been regarded as "basic characteristics of mankind" that were backed by thousands of years of hard evidence and were then proven not to be, I'm just so eager to hear what "lots of things" means. Lets start with "Blacks are inferior savages", that was a pretty popular one. Revener posted:And you're wrong on the fact that humans aren't mechanical processes, we're precisely as mechanical as any computer. Please cite at least one non-mechanical (and we're loosely grouping chemistry in here since it's the biological equivalent to mechanics) process humans perform and I will be happy to show you the mechanics behind it. I said simple. Humans are a hugely chaotic machine where the things we do are essentially impossible to predict (if not actually impossible, it depends how much quantum mechanical effects are involved and I'm not a neuroscientist). I'm also pretty sure that you could not to do that for any process in the body because as far as I'm aware there are still quite a few with a Nobel prize waiting behind them. Revener posted:Don't deflect it, that's exactly what you're saying. No it isn't. Stop being condescending you prick when you can't even understand simple words. Simple words like "simple".
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Mar 2, 2011 09:57
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Crappy Jack posted:Of course, now we live in a society where that's no longer necessary, we don't NEED to have tons of things, but we still have a genetic want to obtain things, because it's simply in our nature. So we sate that urge with fancy cars and houses and becoming CEOs who make ludicrous amounts of money, because that caveman switch in our brain says that if we don't have enough stuff, we won't be able to survive the winter. If that's true, why is that only true of some people and not of others?
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Mar 2, 2011 09:58
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Lets start with "Blacks are inferior savages", that was a pretty popular one. You may have missed the "backed by hard evidence" part.
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Mar 2, 2011 10:14
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Cheezymadman posted:You may have missed the "backed by hard evidence" part. "Hard evidence" is a function of the times. "Hard evidence" could be anything from incorrect but widely accepted scientific "proofs" (see: phrenology, caloric theory, etc), to long-held folk wisdom ("raw meat spontaneously turns into maggots, everyone has seen it happen"), to whatever your local clergyman/shaman/oracle says is true.
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Mar 2, 2011 10:19
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Cheezymadman posted:You may have missed the "backed by hard evidence" part.
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Mar 2, 2011 10:21
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Caloric theory wasn't so bad, Carnot thought it was true when he created (what became) the second law of thermodynamics. It was gibberish, obviously, but it didn't get in the way as much as some beliefs.Cheezymadman posted:You may have missed the "backed by hard evidence" part. "Humans are inevitably greedy because our society is greedy" is exactly the same standard of evidence as was used to justify racial segregation, and slavery before that.
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Mar 2, 2011 10:22
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MrL_JaKiri posted:If that's true, why is that only true of some people and not of others? I'm having a hard time coming up with a list of people who don't like owning things and having them around and not having them stolen.
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Mar 2, 2011 10:22
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Crappy Jack posted:I'm having a hard time coming up with a list of people who don't like owning things and having them around and not having them stolen. There's a substantial difference between "doesn't want things stolen" and "wants to be CEO of a major company and crush the poor beneath his iron shoe". Anyway, there are people who are extremely free with what they have so even that rather different case has counterexamples. What about the people who give up everything they have to go and volunteer in some part of the world?
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Mar 2, 2011 10:25
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MrL_JaKiri posted:There's a substantial difference between "doesn't want things stolen" and "wants to be CEO of a major company and crush the poor beneath his iron shoe". Anyway, there are people who are extremely free with what they have so even that rather different case has counterexamples. For the same reason priests exist, even though it's an undeniable fact that the urge to procreate is a genetic imperative. Hell, for the same reason people get married, even though our genes scream out to spread our oats as far and wide as possible. Being a CEO is not a genetically checked for trait. However, that trait of wanting to accumulate can often express itself in the want to form a company, to create a much larger mass of things that you can own and can even get you more things. It can also express itself in the form of wanting to be surrounded by a close group of friends and getting angry when they don't return those feelings. We can transfer that feeling of commodity, which is exactly what advertising does; takes that feeling of wanting things and says "Here, THIS THING is what you really want to have, we swear". It's an entire business formed out of scratching that genetic itch; in a sense, buying things is another form of masturbation, an alternative means of satisfying a basic genetic desire. Talkin' 'bout whackin' off in the Deus Ex thread, aww yeah. Crappy Jack fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 10:30
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Crappy Jack posted:For the same reason priests exist, even though it's an undeniable fact that the urge to procreate is a genetic imperative. Hell, for the same reason people get married, even though our genes scream out to spread our oats as far and wide as possible. So, like I said, this kind of genetic determinism is silly
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Mar 2, 2011 10:40
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AXE COP posted:Nah the best bit is the datacube in UNATCO HQ which confirms the maintenance man was rigging the soda machine. That's awesome. does it say why he was messing with Gunther?
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Mar 2, 2011 12:02
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Lets start with "Blacks are inferior savages", that was a pretty popular one. So what you're saying is that because the universe is so drat complex, and our theories will never describe its workings fully, that we shouldn't bother modelling the universe at all. Cool. This is like argument #1 for people who who freak out about scientific reductionism breaking the world. Anyways, my core argument has been that the technological singularity (if it exists, if it's even possible) will not save us all, there will be no end of history, no cessation of suffering. Individuals or groups within this new ecosystem will find some limiting resource, and new conflicts will arise over it. Even if uploads were possible, a way to satisfy first world egos at orders of magnitude less expense, pressure will be placed upon computing power. Nothing can be fundementally solved. PS. Don't use the word quantum when trying to describe macro-scale phenomena, it's not relevant. Chaotic is fine. PSS. the idea that blacks are intellectually inferior is a pretty recent idea, used as a post hoc justification for a whole confluence of factors that ended up with anglo-european dominance. So nope, no thousands of years of oppression by the scientific apparatchiks.
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Mar 2, 2011 13:56
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Phobophilia posted:So what you're saying is that because the universe is so drat complex, and our theories will never describe its workings fully, that we shouldn't bother modelling the universe at all. Cool. No, I'm not saying anything like that. gently caress you. I'm saying that saying that stating "Humans are greedy. That's all there is to it." is not supported by anywhere near the amount of evidence required to use it to justify a political and economic system that harms the lives of billions of people. Phobophilia posted:PS. Don't use the word quantum when trying to describe macro-scale phenomena, it's not relevant. Chaotic is fine. I know precisely what I meant and it is correct to say what I said. Do you have any argument against it other than "you're using the word quantum, only stupid people use that word  "?Phobophilia posted:PSS. the idea that blacks are intellectually inferior is a pretty recent idea, used as a post hoc justification for a whole confluence of factors that ended up with anglo-european dominance. So nope, no thousands of years of oppression by the scientific apparatchiks. This is just wrong. There are lots of instances of arguments being made that "slavery is ok because the people we are enslaving are savages" going back, guess what, thousands of years. Aristotle used it to justify slavery in Greek society, for example, and the idea "Black people are stupid savages" predates mass western slavery by hundreds of years.
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Mar 2, 2011 14:13
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It's exaggeration to say that human behaviour is impossible to predict - we have whole scientific disciplines based around creating predictable models of human behaviour - but it's certainly nothing simple. There's no compelling evidence that I'm aware of that human behaviour is controlled by instinct beyond the most basic levels imaginable. Simply the fact that there are a significant number of people who consistently contradict the behaviour argued as inevitable says to me that, even if it is a genetic urge - which, once again, I've seen no evidence that it is apart from vague generalisations - it's evidently not immutable.
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Mar 2, 2011 15:06
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Why does the prod charger take 2 shots to knock someone out? If I hit someone in the front, they stand there for a while getting zapped, then I need to hit them again to knock them out. You don't get THAT much ammo for the drat thing. Should I mod a scope onto my stealth pistol? I have pretty much no free inventory space all the time, and I have a Scope and accuracy mod sitting around. I guess I can't carry all those grenades and that pepper cannon and stuff. I'm Trained in Pistol, Lockpick, Electronics and Computers, what should I get for my next skill upgrade? On the second mission, I freed the hostages in the subway by stealth-sniping them from above, but I got hit once. After I killed the terrorists down below I got an accomplishment bonus. But when I tried again and killed them without being seen or hit, I didn't get a bonus. What's up with that?
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Mar 2, 2011 15:59
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If you get them in a headshot they'll take 1 shot, not 2 to go down. Or hit them in the arse for the same effect. Do you have Shifter? If not, then the Stealth Pistol is not so good. Low damage. Regular pistol is actually much better. In general you may as well use upgrades when you find them.
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Mar 2, 2011 16:02
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Why does the prod charger take 2 shots to knock someone out? If I hit someone in the front, they stand there for a while getting zapped, then I need to hit them again to knock them out. You don't get THAT much ammo for the drat thing. 1. You're meant to sneak and hit them from the back - if you do it correctly, they will fall in one hit! 2. Yes. Why are you even hoarding weapon mods?  3. Do you mean out of those four, or choosing a fifth skill to become trained in? 4. Are you sure all the hostages got out alright the second time? People react to people around them being shot, maybe they freaked out that one of their own died and killed a hostage.
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Mar 2, 2011 16:07
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Hard Clumping posted:1. You're meant to sneak and hit them from the back - if you do it correctly, they will fall in one hit! 1. I'll try, but there's no way I'll be getting behind that guy in Hell's kitchen holding Mr. Renton hostage. I guess I should use the elevator shaft and take out the ones up top first. 2. Because it was recommended to save accuracy ones for a Sniper rifle... but since I don't have one or the room to pick it up, I guess there's no point! 3. Either, I guess. 4. Um... I think so? It was only a 15 point bonus. Hacking is basically free as long as I'm trained, right? In the Clinton Castle thing, I could hack a computer to open a door, but I didn't go into that NSF base because my mission was done. Should I have, or is that later? Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 16:19
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:1. I'll try, but there's no way I'll be getting behind that guy in Hell's kitchen holding Mr. Renton hostage. I guess I should use the elevator shaft and take out the ones up top first. 1. Pretty sure you can take out the guy downstairs without the other two freaking out, so you don't really need to be super sneaky around him. 2. I just finished a playthrough without a sniper rifle, instead modding a stealth pistol all to poo poo with all of the mods. Once I was at least advanced pistol with a scope, I was pretty much sniping everybody. 3. Low-tech, it'll save you some ammo. 4. I wouldn't worry about it then, 15 points is nothing really.
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Mar 2, 2011 16:28
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:2. Because it was recommended to save accuracy ones for a Sniper rifle... but since I don't have one or the room to pick it up, I guess there's no point! There's a sniper rifle on the first level. It's not essential to use one, but the idea would be to save it for less than a level rather than for several. There'll be more again soon (and I'd recommend carrying one) but it's not the end of the world. I'd suggest Rifle.
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Mar 2, 2011 16:31
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Hacking is basically free as long as I'm trained, right? In the Clinton Castle thing, I could hack a computer to open a door, but I didn't go into that NSF base because my mission was done. Should I have, or is that later? Hacking is free as long as you jack out before you run out of time, and yes, you should have. Explore everywhere, talk to everyone, read/open/hack everything. There's treasure everywhere - not just ammo and tools, but weapon upgrades and augmentation canisters. For example, if you explore the security room under Castle Clinton, you can find an aug canister.
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Mar 2, 2011 17:59
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If you are using Shifter, go use the soda vending machine after the LaGuardia aiport mission.
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Mar 2, 2011 18:03
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I don't know what Shifter is. Is it that strength mod thing for arms? Is it possible to save both upstairs hostages in the 'ton hotel? They execute a hostage if you get too close. I snuck up and stunned one, but the other guy died. And WHAT Sniper Rifle on the first level? I went everywhere! Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Mar 2, 2011 |
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Mar 2, 2011 18:13
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Shifter is a mod. As in a mod for the game. (Throw a gas grenade upstairs)
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Mar 2, 2011 18:15
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