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Use of artillery automatically makes you honorless in most of the Clans eyes. Something about attacking opponents you can't even see. Also, I find the sheer level of "here's some free help for the players!" rewards being given out to be kind of appalling. They've got a free tank packing an AC20, a free air strike, now free artillery, a P/G upgrade... Kind of wears down the shock value.
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Mar 26, 2011 03:36
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Zaodai posted:Use of artillery automatically makes you honorless in most of the Clans eyes. Something about attacking opponents you can't even see. The 'bonuses' being handed out provide minuscule at best advantages to the player. I don't see what you are so upset about. Considering they are facing a full star (or two!) of PTN modified (aka really good)clan omnimechs, they need every edge they can get. If it makes you feel better, know that the players are absolutely going to loathe the mech I added in for them to face. VVVV B2 KnoxZone fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 26, 2011 03:41
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KnoxZone posted:The 'bonuses' being handed out provide minuscule at best advantages to the player. I don't see what you are so upset about. Considering they are facing a full star (or two!) of PTN modified (aka really good)clan omnimechs, they need every edge they can get. Is the mech you added in Beta or Gamma, Knox? I never lost faith that you'd pick something to dick them over. =P Also, I'm not that upset about it, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that the mission gets announced a certain way and then before any actual combat occurs the players get four separate bonuses to aid them? And I don't really think the advantages they're being given are quite as trivial as they appear initially. It's just a matter of using them properly (and the tank always has that possibility to be absolute murder if they start rolling like Mexicans.)
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Mar 26, 2011 03:47
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Zaodai posted:Is the mech you added in Beta or Gamma, Knox? I never lost faith that you'd pick something to dick them over. =P I am terribly sorry. You might be happier in another thread, since everything that happens in this one seems to upset you with as you complain about virtually everything from the dice to the little things PTN is doing to spice things up for spectators. You seem terribly unhappy with how this thread is going, anyway, and if you are not you are very successfully presenting the impression that this is not something you enjoy reading!
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Mar 26, 2011 03:51
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Or I read the thread at night, when I'm exhausted and the little things get to me. Maybe I just don't like seeing the players get babied. Either way, I can enjoy the thread without agreeing with every decision PTN makes. I'm not here to kiss his rear end.
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Mar 26, 2011 03:59
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Zaodai posted:Or I read the thread at night, when I'm exhausted and the little things get to me. Maybe I just don't like seeing the players get babied. When I get home at night and I'm feeling tired, I like to get the largest stick I can find and just shove it up my rear end in a top hat. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:06
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Zaodai posted:Also, I find the sheer level of "here's some free help for the players!" rewards being given out to be kind of appalling. They've got a free tank packing an AC20, a free air strike, now free artillery, a P/G upgrade... Kind of wears down the shock value. What you failed to get from Knoxzone's comment is that these 'helpful' rewards also have the capability to be 'harmful' rewards. It's all based on the will of he or she that wins the challenge. Both artillery challenges are still open. If you don't want the players 'babied' or want to lavish some painful attention on them, go out and win some challenges yourself.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:07
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Urcinius posted:What you failed to get from Knoxzone's comment is that these 'helpful' rewards also have the capability to be 'harmful' rewards. It's all based on the will of he or she that wins the challenge. PTN straight up said the fighter run will get shot down if it tries to shoot a Donegal mech, and the artillery can't directly target players so they'd have to move into it, or get dicked over by random spread. The worst the tank could do is block their path by accident, and the P/G upgrade has already been distributed. (Knox took the Clan side though. That much is accurate.  )
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Mar 26, 2011 04:15
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Zaodai posted:PTN straight up said the fighter run will get shot down if it tries to shoot a Donegal mech, and the artillery can't directly target players so they'd have to move into it, or get dicked over by random spread. The worst the tank could do is block their path by accident, and the P/G upgrade has already been distributed.  is your problem, Zaodai? The 2nd Donegal are facing a suicide scenario. This is so retardedly unbalanced it shoots the very idea of "balance" down the gullet and back out the sphincter of oblivion.And you're booing when they get some support? Frankly, the players in this game need all the help they can get. And you are just making this thread a fat sack of un-fun.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:20
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Oh come ON. I was directly responding to someone who suggested that the bonuses weren't solely helpful. And I never suggested the fight was balanced. But the entire point of the mission is that they're supposed to be hosed over royally.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:24
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Zaodai posted:And I never suggested the fight was balanced. But the entire point of the mission is that they're supposed to be hosed over royally. The point of a game is to be fun. "Royally butt-hosed" may adequately describe the real situations and vagaries of war, but it does not adequately describe "fun."
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Mar 26, 2011 04:25
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Zaodai posted:PTN straight up said the fighter run will get shot down if it tries to shoot a Donegal mech, and the artillery can't directly target players so they'd have to move into it, or get dicked over by random spread. The worst the tank could do is block their path by accident, and the P/G upgrade has already been distributed. The Fighter is quite biased (snap the challenge up for the votes then), but I interpreted the artillery's inability to choose a hex occupied by a player as a boon to players discussing their strategy inside the thread. Without it you could plot the artillery with full knowledge of their motions. Now you have to guess like a normal game.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:33
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honestly, Zaodai, everytime I read your posts in this thread, I know it's going to be you bitching about something. As one of the players who raised your rage last turn, I can say it's not welcome. It's not fun to have you bitch about every bit of good luck that comes our way. Now, this is clearly a suicide scenario here. And also, the way I see it is that PTN is doing this so the missions increase in difficulty as they go on. The first mission was easy, kill two light tanks. Second mission was a bit harder, but still balanced in the player's favourite. This one seems harder than that. So, please, pull that stick out of your rear end. You are not making this thread better. At all.
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Mar 26, 2011 04:47
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Though I'm not an expert at this game, I think it's obvious that the difference between victory and defeat in this map will be keeping the second star in reserve as long as possible. If I were in their situation, here's what I'd do: 1. Whittle the first star down to one or two 'Mechs as quickly as possible; then 2. Drag my heels on the last 'Mechs, firing only the perfunctory minimum shot or two to maintain (the appearance of) honour. 3. Try to stay at long range to minimize damage. 4. On about turn 18, destroy the last 'Mech from the first star to claim a partial victory. Although the Clanners would eventually get wise to this, it would buy us some time. I'd try to stay back in the area of the buildings - there are some serious short-range bruisers here, and Clanners have better aim and better range anyway. When the second star came into play, I guess I'd have to check to see how much time was left as I considered whether to try to keep things 1v1 or take down 'Mechs as they popped out from behind buildings with massed alpha-strikes. Maybe start 1v1, and use that as a strategem to get the 'Mechs into flanking positions. Shame that this is an assault lance and consequently would have trouble with the maneuvering. What would be ideal is if the IS 'Mechs and the dropships could be used as a pincer maneuver on the second star at the ideal time after they moved to engage, but that would be risky. Some of the bigger guns on dropships, though, should be able to blow clean through the rear armour on these 'Mechs. Opinions? Getting twenty turns is probably doable with discipline, inflexible opponents, and a bit of luck. It wouldn't be a very fun mission if it were completely impossible. This is hardly a cakewalk, though - we're talking about an assault lance against a full binary that includes an assault star. In a straight-up fight, it'd be a slaughter. David Corbett fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 26, 2011 05:10
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David Corbett posted:Though I'm not an expert at this game, I think it's obvious that the difference between victory and defeat in this map will be keeping the second star in reserve as long as possible. One possible problem there. There may be mechs in either of the stars that carry only short-medium range weapons. Should one of the pilots in our unfortunate lance start long-range duelling with such a mech, the Clanner in that mech could interpret that as breaking Zellbrigen. The source of my reasoning (from Zellbrigen article on sarna.net)- Moving out of weapon range is prohibited. About the pincer maneuver with the dropships, that is merely speculation, yes? If the dropships were hot, it might work. The Euphrates, as an Overlord class, carries a pretty good weapons loadout (limited by how many weapons it can aim at enemy mechs at once) Just try to kill the heaviest mechs first, as the survivors will turn around and focus fire (Zellbrigen means nothing at that point). landcollector fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 26, 2011 05:23
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landcollector posted:One possible problem there. There may be mechs in either of the stars that carry only short-medium range weapons. Should one of the pilots in our unfortunate lance start long-range duelling with such a mech, the Clanner in that mech could interpret that as breaking Zellbrigen. The source of my reasoning (from Zellbrigen article on sarna.net)- If you intentionally move out of YOUR weapons range, that's prohibited. If you use the advantage of your superior weapon range against a foe who didn't prepare for that, that is their own fault.
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Mar 26, 2011 05:31
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If that's the lance's intent, to drag this out and go for the 20-turn victory, then anyone with an LRM rack needs to be hitting those woods around 1030 in an effort to start some fires.
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Mar 26, 2011 05:38
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You know, there's something I've always wondered about the Battletech universe that I've never really seen addressed (granted, my knowledge of Battletech fluff isn't fantastic beyond what was presented in the RPG campaigns I was a part of and the Blood of Kerensky trilogy): what is life like on Terra for the average citizen? Are there even average citizens, or is it just all ComGuard?
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Mar 26, 2011 05:39
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I wonder if it would be possible fir the IS forces to issue a formal batchall for possession of the landing field? Though they should word it "all forces under my command present and that reinforce us." The Clanners shouldn't be too worried about reinforcements. Mainly, I'm thinking that the process of issuing the batchall and confirming it ought to eat up a turn or two.
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Mar 26, 2011 05:44
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David Corbett posted:If I were in their situation, here's what I'd do: In theory, you are correct - this is the best plan. The big problem is that performing step 1 is far easier said than done. Even if they come one at a time, each one of those Clan mechs is probably a match for any two of the Steiner ones. Right now we're seeing what is probably their lightest unit versus our heaviest, and it's still a toss-up. The Clans are faster, better armored, do more damage, hit more often, have longer range and handle heat better than anything the IS can field. In an equal fight? The Banshee can throw down 30 damage at range 15; 68 damage at range 2. At range 15, it gains +2 heat a turn firing full; at range 2, +20. It moves 3/5. It carries 240 points of armor and worst case needs to take at least 46 damage to a single location before it's crippled. A Clan mech of equivalent tonnage (and the design we're most likely to be facing here) can put down 58 damage at range 15 while only overheating by +12 and can fire most of that at a -2 bonus. It can move 4/6 with bursts of speed of up to 8 and can jump. It carries 259 armor and needs to sustain at least 60 damage to a location before being crippled. And the design I'm mentioning here is considered kinda weak by Clan standards.
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Mar 26, 2011 05:44
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Polaron posted:You know, there's something I've always wondered about the Battletech universe that I've never really seen addressed (granted, my knowledge of Battletech fluff isn't fantastic beyond what was presented in the RPG campaigns I was a part of and the Blood of Kerensky trilogy): what is life like on Terra for the average citizen? Terra is actually run pretty hands-off style, through ComStar's (entirely secular) Department of Terran Affairs. It's basically a goddamn paradise world. The average work week is 20 hours and poverty is entirely eliminated.
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Mar 26, 2011 05:47
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ShadowDragon8685 posted:I wonder if it would be possible fir the IS forces to issue a formal batchall for possession of the landing field? If you go down that road, you might as well say "Can we eat up 5 or more turns having the Clanners explain what Zellbrigen is and the proper formalities for conducting warfare by their standards." Sure, most of the armies, including our Colonel, don't seem to be eager to gain a mult-cultural viewpoint but PoptartsNinja has said that he's the only one restricted to roleplaying. Having the two commanders in such proximity would enable, nay promote, such parlance, right 
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Mar 26, 2011 05:56
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Urcinius posted:If you go down that road, you might as well say "Can we eat up 5 or more turns having the Clanners explain what Zellbrigen is and the proper formalities for conducting warfare by their standards." Sure, most of the armies, including our Colonel, don't seem to be eager to gain a mult-cultural viewpoint but PoptartsNinja has said that he's the only one restricted to roleplaying. Having the two commanders in such proximity would enable, nay promote, such parlance, right That isn't actually a bad idea. After all, if someone's going to come to you, claiming their cultural stuff, you deserve an explanation of the rudiments, particularly when it's being aimed at you and involves combat. After all, if they want you to play by their rules... It would be helpful for them to explain what their rules are.
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Mar 26, 2011 06:08
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That support might allow the Lyran lance to take out the medium/heavy star, but dishonorable combined arms tactics are going to bring the clan assaults into the fight. Unless by some miracle the IS lance plus support is able to take out the medium/heavy star without any real damage, and the dropships manage to come online, and Caesar Steiner somehow shows up with an Atlas and a tank company and an aerospace wing, this mission is not going to end in a total victory. With the weight advantage only slightly in the Lyrans' favor with two lightly armored assaults, a light mech, and one real assault mech against a medium/heavy star the secondary objective will be hard enough even with support. The primary objective really relies on the players' ability to control the flow of the battle. Using that support might actually be a really bad idea if it brings in the assaults on Turn 5. Ideally the players would eliminate the last mech in the medium star without the use of any support that would bring in the assault star, and they would do it on turn 19.
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Mar 26, 2011 06:40
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You guys need to have a little faith in the story PTN is trying to tell. The IS has some experienced BT players plus all of the good feedback coming into the thread. The Clans may have a huge advantage but I don't think PTN wants a complete and total rear end kicking within three combat rounds. That isn't very entertaining. I want some unexpected events and surprises. I want to see a  as gently caress Clanner take an AC/20 in the face. I want to see the IS go nuts and raise the blood pressure of every Steel Viper. If its a doomed holding action then I want you Mechwarriors to hold on with both hands until your knuckles turn white and your rides are smoking craters.Also Mukai your story rocked. It showed a nice layer of personality to me as a person with very little exposure to the Clan fluff.
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Mar 26, 2011 06:53
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So far we've narrowed down the Clanners' possible responses to "anything imaginable," plus or minus any series of actions that would destroy all five Lyrians within the next two turns. I think we all need to take a step back at this point and let the game be played for a bit longer.
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Mar 26, 2011 06:53
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Zaodai posted:PTN straight up said the fighter run will get shot down if it tries to shoot a Donegal mech, and the artillery can't directly target players so they'd have to move into it, or get dicked over by random spread. The worst the tank could do is block their path by accident, and the P/G upgrade has already been distributed. Just because it gets shot down doesn't mean it won't do damage. But really, this mission is horribly stacked against the players. You really have no idea. Any Clanner can potshot the tank at any time, without any loss of honor--and pulse weapons make the multiple-target issue pretty much moot. Am I staggering the Clan advance? Yes. A battle of attrition is far more fun than simply piling two Stars on and saying "Have fun surviving to turn five, guys!" ... I'm saving that for later. Artillary is provocative, and not under the player's control. Fighters can miss (and really, most of them have terrible armaments--I'm not giving out 'Mechbuster strafing runs). Artillary also comes in multiple sizes, they're not all Arrow IVs or Long Toms. Defiance Industries posted:If you intentionally move out of YOUR weapons range, that's prohibited. If you use the advantage of your superior weapon range against a foe who didn't prepare for that, that is their own fault. Plus, Clan ER Medium Lasers have the same range as an Inner Sphere PPC. Yes, you read that correctly. Bobbin Threadbare posted:So far we've narrowed down the Clanners' possible responses to "anything imaginable," plus or minus any series of actions that would destroy all five Lyrians within the next two turns. I think we all need to take a step back at this point and let the game be played for a bit longer. This, pretty much. The game will be decided by the players, not by something won in a contest. The 'Mech Knox picked, for example, is going to turn out to be a real nightmare--it was originally just going to be a Huntsman.
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Mar 26, 2011 07:45
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PoptartsNinja posted:Artillary is provocative, and not under the player's control. Fighters can miss (and really, most of them have terrible armaments--I'm not giving out 'Mechbuster strafing runs). Artillary also comes in multiple sizes, they're not all Arrow IVs or Long Toms. At least artillery uses the shot-from-above hit table so there's always the chance of a lucky head hit. Thumpers and Snipers do 15/5 and 20/10 damage each so there's always that chance of a lucky hit knocking some guy out. To agree with you, a couple of strafing runs would be nice but aren't exactly a bunch of 75-ton heavy fighters screaming out of the heavens with 15 rocket pods or laser guided bombs dropping 150 points of damage on whichever poor sod is in the line of fire. Hell, even with a proper Arc Light level bombing run the Clans have a pretty heavy advantage. Actually, that brings up a related question. If the ComGuards show up, have they invented C3i yet? (Next time vote for them! Maybe they have Royals!) quote:Plus, Clan ER Medium Lasers have the same range as an Inner Sphere PPC. Yes, you read that correctly. Large Laser actually, if I'm allowed to nitpick. 5/10/15 range brackets, and 7 damage. Yes, that's right. It is, in fact, basically a large laser. There are Clan lights and mediums which outgun IS Assaults. It's beautiful and terrible. MJ12 fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 26, 2011 07:51
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PoptartsNinja posted:
Poor players. I normally would be a bit frowny over the idea of piling even more crap on an already horribly-imbalanced scenario, but hey, the faster the next two games end, the sooner I'll get up to my own, so...
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Mar 26, 2011 07:53
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B2 is either a Hunchback IIC or a Nova, isn't it?
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Mar 26, 2011 07:54
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Defiance Industries posted:Yeah, Victor should die as he lived: flailing wildly while attempting to avoid another total failure. I'm thinking he should have fallen down the stairs on to a hand grenade which explodes inside his rectal cavity. Dying of poison isn't a grand enough failure. For this to be accurate, some loyal, trusted confidant who is more competent than he is would have to try to get rid of the grenade, only for Victor to decide it wasn't thrown far enough away and try to fix it himself only for it to blow him up when he tries. Really, it's kind of sad how useless all of Hanse and Melissa's children were. Victor was poo poo Midas, Yvonne was a plot device that did nothing, Katherine was batshit crazy and not even particularly competent, just moreso than Victor or Yvonne; Peter was pretty average at best, and Arthur got killed. And yet Victor is treated like he is the best person at everything, when he is pretty much the opposite of that. I guess no one could really live up to Hanse's legacy of actually being as awesome and devious as his reputation, maybe, but still...
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Mar 26, 2011 08:17
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MJ12 posted:At least artillery uses the shot-from-above hit table so there's always the chance of a lucky head hit. Thumpers and Snipers do 15/5 and 20/10 damage each so there's always that chance of a lucky hit knocking some guy out. Thumper is 10/1 and Sniper is 15/5; Long Toms and Arrow IVs are 20/10. It's also in 5pt clusters so it's not very often you'll get a decapitation or cockpit hit from an artillery shell vs. an undamaged mech. (0.5% chance of a decap with a sniper and a 0.3% and 0.9% chance for a cockpit crit with the thumper and sniper respectively assuming the head slot is empty) MJ12 posted:Actually, that brings up a related question. If the ComGuards show up, have they invented C3i yet? (Next time vote for them! Maybe they have Royals!) C3i was, apparently, developed using Draconis Combine tech in 3062 so it's probably a bit early for that. Longinus00 fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Mar 26, 2011 |
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Mar 26, 2011 08:20
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Arglebargle III posted:The primary objective really relies on the players' ability to control the flow of the battle. Using that support might actually be a really bad idea if it brings in the assaults on Turn 5. Ideally the players would eliminate the last mech in the medium star without the use of any support that would bring in the assault star, and they would do it on turn 19. We could maybe use it to turn terrain in to rough terrain, making it harder to advance over. lovely use of it but possible.
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Mar 26, 2011 08:59
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Comedy option: stand so that the medium lance is between us and the assault lance. Shoot the assault lance. Pray that there are friendly fire rules.
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Mar 26, 2011 09:51
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Arglebargle III posted:Comedy option: stand so that the medium lance is between us and the assault lance. Shoot the assault lance. Pray that there are friendly fire rules. This is a cunning plan that cannot fail. Everyone should implement it.
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Mar 26, 2011 10:09
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Mastigophoran posted:Well, it took most of the day to get this video done... (also it is two runs spliced together) Holy gently caress, that was amazing! 
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Mar 26, 2011 10:50
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Arglebargle III posted:Comedy option: stand so that the medium lance is between us and the assault lance. Shoot the assault lance. Pray that there are friendly fire rules. They are extremely specific. You need an INARC (which won't be invented until ComStar cooks it up in the early 3060s), and you load it with this thing called a Nemesis pod. Then any missiles that are fired will target enemies that are between it and the target. However, it only works with missiles using warheads that home in on an attached NARC pod. It's such a fun weapon but way too specific to be useful. While NARC beacons do exist both in the hands of ComStar and the Clans, the improved version doesn't yet (which sucks, cause there's like four different INARC pods and all are fun in their own way). Going the other way, there's a special ability the Royal Guard get when Peter Steiner-Davion is on the field, where a Royal Guard mech that is on the line of sight between Peter's machine and an attacker can take the bullet for Peter, even though he's the one being attacked. It makes the scenario a lot of fun, since the objective is just "you are being chased by a lot of dudes. The Archon must survive no matter what. Get him to the other edge of the map." During the occupation of Tharkad, there were at least two occasions where Archon Peter was literally the entire Royal Guard Brigade.
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Mar 26, 2011 11:26
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Defiance Industries posted:During the occupation of Tharkad, there were at least two occasions where Archon Peter was literally the entire Royal Guard Brigade. 
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Mar 26, 2011 12:19
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Gothsheep posted:Poor players. I normally would be a bit frowny over the idea of piling even more crap on an already horribly-imbalanced scenario, but hey, the faster the next two games end, the sooner I'll get up to my own, so... It isn't like I am making them face a Turkina. Just replaced a Huntsman with a different 50 ton mech. One that I personally love, which just so happens to be rather suited for this scenario. landcollector posted:B2 is either a Hunchback IIC or a Nova, isn't it? 
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Mar 26, 2011 17:33
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KnoxZone posted:It's the Nova. It has to be.
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Mar 26, 2011 17:37
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