Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Bonaventure: Jun 23, 2005; by sebmojo

More like Cardouche if you ask me! Hahahaha!

# ? May 9, 2011 17:06

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# ? May 16, 2024 03:00

Namarrgon: Dec 23, 2008; Congratulations on not getting fit in 2011!

It's not like the Iranians are stupid, everyone knows it's a nonsense charge, the point is the power the ayatollah displays if it sticks.

# ? May 9, 2011 17:17

Chade Johnson: Oct 12, 2009; by Ozmaugh

Cartouche posted:

Between this type of event, and Irans leaders accused of being shills of Djinn, I am at a loss to see how the middle east could ever become something to take seriously.

Yeah what a bunch of backwards people stuck in the 13th century. Let's bomb the poo poo out of them to bring them into the 21st century!

# ? May 9, 2011 17:52

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

More on the refugees who NATO are accused of ignoring:

quote:

NATO denies failure to save African migrants
NATO has denied a report claiming its military units failed to save dozens of migrants fleeing north Africa by boat which had been adrift in the ocean for 16 days, leading to the deaths of 62 people.

British newspaper The Guardian said despite a distress call from the boat to the Italian coastguard and a military helicopter and NATO warship, no rescue effort was attempted.

It said the boat, carrying 72 people including women, children and political refugees, ran into trouble after leaving Tripoli, the Libyan capital, for the Italian island of Lampedusa on March 25.

By the time the vessel drifted ashore at Zlitan, Libya, on 10 April, all but 11 passengers were dead, and another died after being imprisoned by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the country's leader.

The paper said the migrants used a satellite phone to call Moses Zerai, an Eritrean priest in Rome who runs a refugee rights organisation, who then alerted the Italian coastguard.

Witnesses told the paper a military helicopter appeared above the boat and lowered food and water, but flew off without a rescue boat arriving.

A survivor said the boat was later carried towards a Nato aircraft carrier, which the paper concluded was the French ship Charles de Gaulle.

But NATO spokeswoman Carmen Romero said the only aircraft carrier under the alliance's command at that time was the Italian ship Garibaldi.

"Throughout the period in question, the Garibaldi was operating over 100 nautical miles out to sea. Therefore, any claims that a NATO aircraft carrier spotted and then ignored the vessel in distress are wrong," she said.

"NATO vessels are fully aware of their responsibilities with regard to the International Maritime Law regarding Safety of Life at Sea and have already saved hundreds of lives at sea," she added.

Thierry Burkhard, spokesman for the chief of staff of the French armed forces, also denied the French navy had failed to help.

"The Charles de Gaulle was never at any moment in contact with this type of boat, nor [was] any other French vessel, due to its position," he said.

A spokesman for the Italian coastguard said the location of the ship was pinpointed with the help of satellite telephone providers and heading towards Maltese waters.

An alarm was sent from its Rome headquarters to all ships, civilian and military, in the area.

"If we had been in the area, we certainly would have intervened," said Lieutenant Massimo Maccheroni, adding that under maritime law, the coastguard cannot operate in other country's waters without permission.

Zerai told the Guardian the failure to rescue the migrants constituted a crime.

"There was an abdication of responsibility which led to the deaths of over 60 people, including children," he said.

"That constitutes a crime, and that crime cannot go unpunished just because the victims were African migrants and not tourists on a cruise liner."

Dozens of immigrants from north Africa have died attempting to reach Italian shores. On April 6, a boat carrying 200 people sank south of Sicily. In that case, Italian ships answered a distress signal and managed to save 50 people in Maltese waters.

The Guardian said those aboard the drifting boat included 47 Ethiopians, seven Nigerians, seven Eritreans, six Ghanaians and five Sudanese. Twenty were women and two were small children, one of whom was one year old.

Seems like the fighters in Misarata are pushing westwards towards Zliten in an attempt to link up with rebels in that city, so far they are about halfway there, and claiming various victories.

There's also rumours that Egypt have arrested Ahmed Gaddaf-El-Dam, who went to Egypt early on in the war, and claimed he was seeking asylum, but has since been accused of gathering support for Gaddafi in Egypt.

# ? May 9, 2011 18:17

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

killing_fields posted:

Can we talk about the massive Taliban offensive in Kandahar right now in this thread?

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2011/05/2011578431415963.html

Popular rebellion against autocratic government? Sounds like it fits into the thread perfectly.

# ? May 9, 2011 19:11

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

The Guardian:

quote:

Hundreds of activists have been arrested in house-to-house raids across the country overnight, AP's Syria correspondent Bassem Mroue reports from neighbouring Lebanon.

The widening crackdown suggests that Assad's regime is determined to crush the uprising by force and intimidation.

Monday's arrests, which zeroed in on the protests' organisers and participants, were focused in the central city of Homs, the coastal city of Banias, some suburbs of the capital Damascus and villages around the southern flashpoint city of Deraa, said Rami Abdul-Rahman, director of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

He added that the crackle of gunfire was heard in the Damascus suburb of Maadamiyeh.

In Banias, home to one of Syria's two oil refineries, where special forces backed by tanks entered Saturday, more than 250 people, including women, have been detained, Abdul-Rahman said.

He added that among those arrested was a leading organiser of the demonstrations, along with his father and three brothers. Also detained was Firas Khaddam, nephew of former vice president Abdul-Halim Khaddam, who has been living in exile since he left Syria in 2005 and called for the overthrow of the regime, Abdul-Rahman said.

Meanwhile, the al-Ba'ath newspaper of Syria's ruling Ba'ath party said "cautious calm" has been restored to Banias. It said the showdown in the city "will end within a few hours".

A resident who fled Banias two days ago told AP that among those detained were mosque imams, the head of the municipality and members of leading families in the city such as Khaddam, al-Masri and Sahyouni.

quote:

More evidence of war crimes by Gaddafi's regime in Libya has emerged. Human Rights Watch interviewed 50 refugees from western mountain regions who claimed that government forces launched indiscriminate attacks that hit civilian homes, mosques and schools in the area.

Researcher Nadya Khalife said: "Accounts from refugees paint a consistent picture: Libyan government forces are firing indiscriminately into towns and villages of the Nafusa mountains. The scale of the attacks, which have damaged mosques, homes, and landed near hospitals, suggests the government has made little or no attempt to focus on military targets."

She added: "All persons responsible for attacks that amount to war crimes, including those who give the orders, are subject to prosecution. And soldiers should refuse to follow unlawful orders."

Last week a report by Amnesty said attacks on the rebel-held port of Misrata amounted to war crimes.

The international criminal court is poised to issue arrests warrants for war crimes against three members of the regime.

quote:

At least 800 people have been killed since the unrest began in Syria, seven weeks ago, said Wissam Tarif executive director of the human rights group Insan.

"The number has raised significantly. The 800 that Sawasiah and other human rights groups are talking about we believe is correct. We have indications that it could also be much higher," Tarif said in an Audioboo interview.

"There has been a Hama-style massacre in Syria," he said in reference to a brutal crackdown in 1982.

"Bashar al-Assad has declared war against his own people. We are talking about 800 people killed in seven weeks," Tarif said.

In an update on the latest crackdown he said seven Damascus suburbs are "still under siege". He said hundreds of arrests and a heavy military presence in many towns and cities was suppressing the protests for now.

This crackdown has so far managed to paralyse logistically, the movement. People are not being allowed to go into the streets. Each city is cut into slices with many checkpoints, with security forces raiding homes, with the military in the main squares. So people are isolated in their neighbourhoods and even their own streets.

The question is how long can the army and security forces keep people isolated in their neighbourhoods. This is happening in Deraa, in Homs, in Tafas, Latakia, in the Damascus suburbs. We are seeing a major military operation with the security forces all over the country. How long can the authorities do this?

Amazingly last night in the Latakia there were protests. The chants are escalating. For the first time we are hearing 'Oh God, just take Bashar away'. It is becoming more personal.

quote:

"There are military operations still going on in Homs, Banias and Tafas and we now have checkpoints and gunfire in six areas around Damascus, including Moadamiyeh, Harasta and Douma," executive director of the human rights group Insan, Wissam Tarif, told Katherine Marsh.

Tarif, who is monitoring is monitoring events from The Hague, added: "The wave of detention since Friday has continued without stop. The number of people disappearing is getting higher. People are being picked out of cars at checkpoints."

As the intimidation campaign continues, Tarif says it is a struggle to keep going. "People are not afraid of the operations themselves, but they are afraid of being paralysed logistically. They can't gather, they can't talk to each other - it makes it an uneven game."

But he added: "On the other side the question is how long can the regime keep this up? And in how many places? They can't occupy the country forever." As protesters point out, they can go home and get rest, while the security forces and army are always on duty.

Joshua Landis, a Syria expert and director of Middle East studies at the Oklahoma University, says nothing good can come of this. "The image that Bashar al-Assad has tried to cultivate in the last 10 years of a reformer who would put a chicken in everybody's pot, who was going to open Syria, lighten the hand of mukhabarat and make Syria a fun place to live has completely gone," Landis told the Guardian.

"And as he has to crack down to keep power, he will have to reward loyalty even more than he already has as a thank you to those who have stood by him. And that is the root of corruption in Syria."

quote:

Some observers in Damascus have started to fear that the widespread clampdown will quash the protests, writes Katherine Marsh from the Syrian capital.

"News is so slow to trickle out and now they have taken down a lot of 3G internet and satellite phones, making it impossible for activists to work," said one observer. Meanwhile, in cities where tanks and forces have been used, the fear is palpable. One man, with a brother in Homs, said the city is terrified by the tanks rolling in and the wave of arrests. "By punishing the whole city, they want people to turn against the protesters," he said.

But other activists dispute the regime has the upper hand, counting protests in several cities including Deir Ezzor yesterday. "Protests are still going on despite the clampdown and all that will happen is they will pop back up as soon as the regime stops clamping down," said one activist. "This is especially the case in the tribal areas of Deraa and Deir Ezzor."

Adding to the pain, the economy is grinding to a halt as tourists have emptied out and some shops and factories are closing in Damascus and Aleppo. Manufacturers in Aleppo have already been badly hit by opening up of trade with Turkey, with at least 50 textiles manufacturers closing down in the past two years due to competition from cheaper imported goods from Turkey and China. Drought since 2006 has caused added pain to farmers in a country where agriculture accounts for around a third of GDP.

If fear can be overcome, this pain could trigger the Sunni merchants of Damascus and Aleppo to join the protesters, as well as the bigger business families who are starting to get annoyed at the government's handling of the crisis.

quote:

The bloody crackdown in Syria appears to escalating. There are fresh reports of gunfire in the Damascus suburbs of Moadamiyeh and Daraya; as more accounts of the suppression against the protest movement emerge from Homs, Banias, and Deraa.

A 12-year-old boy was among the victims in Homs overnight, Reuters reports. More than 250 people, including children, were arrested in the coastal down of Banias, according to the leading Syria dissident Ammar Abdulhamid.

He claims the favourite weapons of the Bashar al-Assad's regime are tanks and sectarianism.

The city [of Banias] remains under siege and basic services, including water, electricity and communications lines are down. Snipers and tanks are reported all over the Sunni areas in this mixed city of over 50,000. The Assads' policy remains hinged at driving a wedge between the Sunni, Alawite and Christian communities, as protests in the city witnessed large participation by Alawite and Christian residents.

The regime continues to try to pin the blame for the violence on "terrorist" groups.

Iran is playing an increasingly active role advising Syria on the crackdown, western diplomatic sources in Damascus told the Guardian's Simon Tisdall.

A senior western diplomat in Damascus expanded on assertions, first made by White House officials last month, that Iran is advising president Bashar al-Assad's government on how to crush dissent.

The diplomat pointed to a "significant" increase in the number of Iranian personnel in Syria since protests began in mid-March. Mass arrests in door-to-door raids, similar to those that helped to crush Iran's "green revolution" in 2009, have been stepped up in the past week.

quote:

Iran is playing an increasingly active role in helping the Syrian regime in its crackdown on pro-democracy protesters, according to western diplomatic sources in Damascus.

The claim came as Syria's security forces backed by tanks intensified operations to suppress unrest in three new flashpoint towns on Sunday and it was confirmed that four women had been shot dead in the first use of force against an all-female demonstration.

A senior western diplomat in Damascus expanded on assertions, first made by White House officials last month, that Iran is advising president Bashar al-Assad's government on how to crush dissent.

The diplomat pointed to a "significant" increase in the number of Iranian personnel in Syria since protests began in mid-March. Mass arrests in door-to-door raids, similar to those that helped to crush Iran's "green revolution" in 2009, have been stepped up in the past week.

Human rights groups suggest more than 7,000 people have been detained since the uprising began. More than 800 people are said to have died, up to 50 during last Friday's "day of defiance". Last night two unarmed demonstrators were reportedly killed during a night rally in the eastern city of Deir al-Zor.

"Tehran has upped the level of technical support and personnel support from the Iranian Republican Guard to strengthen Syria's ability to deal with protesters," the diplomat said, adding that the few hundred personnel were not involved in any physical operations. "Since the start of the uprising, the Iranian regime has been worried about losing its most important ally in the Arab world and important conduit for weapons to Hezbollah [in Lebanon]," the diplomat said.

Last month White House officials made similar allegations about Iranian assistance for the regime, particularly in terms of intercepting or blocking internet, mobile phone and social media communications between the protesters and the outside world. But the officials did not provide hard evidence to support their claims.

Activists and diplomats claim Iran's assistance includes help to monitor internet communications such as Skype, widely used by a network of activists, methods of crowd control, and providing equipment such as batons and riot police helmets.

Syria has denied seeking or receiving assistance from Iran to put down the unrest. In a statement issued on Friday, Iran's foreign ministry stressed Syria's "prime role" in opposing Israel and the US, and urged opposing forces in the country to compromise on political reform. US policy towards Syria was based on "opportunism in support of the Zionist regime's avarice", it said.

The Assad family, from the Shia Muslim minority Alawite sect, is likely to be nervous about appearing to be helped by its Shia-dominated ally to crush protesters drawn from the 75% Sunni population.

Regime forces backed by tanks were in action over the weekend in Homs, in the town of Tafas north of Deraa, and in the coastal city of Banias, activists said. Violence was also reported in the Damascus dormitory town of Zabadani.

Along with arbitrary detentions, shootings have continued.

Razan Zeitouneh, a lawyer in the capital who is monitoring the protests, said four women were shot dead in the village of Merqeb, close to Banias, and six men were shot dead in Banias on Saturday.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/08/iran-helping-syrian-regime-protesters

quote:

Egypt's transitional government moved quickly to defuse tensions after Muslim-Christian clashes in Cairo left 12 dead and cast a cloud over hopes for peaceful post-revolutionary change.

Angry demonstrations erupted in the capital after a Coptic church in the Imbaba neighbourhood was burned down on Saturday night. Military police separated opposing camps at one protest reminiscent of the dramatic events that overthrew the regime in February.

Fighting broke out over rumours, which turned out to be false, that a Christian woman was being held inside a church and prevented from converting to Islam.

Essam Sharaf, prime minister of the military-backed government, postponed a visit to the Gulf to convene an emergency cabinet session, and announced compensation payments for the dead and nearly 200 injured as well as strict implementation of tough new laws banning gatherings outside places of worship.

The government, sensitive to mounting alarm about deteriorating security since the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak in February, also rushed to announce that all 190 people arrested would be tried in military courts. The justice minister, Abdel-Aziz al-Gindi, pledged to "strike with an iron hand all those who seek to tamper with the nation's security".

Imbaba, a poor neighbourhood in the north-west of Cairo, was quiet but tense as night fell. The main al-Wahda street was blocked by armoured cars and patrolling soldiers � trusted far more than the police, who were discredited during the revolution.

Witness described how several hundred Muslims massed outside St Mina church demanding the woman be surrendered. Gunfire was heard and stones and petrol bombs were thrown before the army and emergency services were able to bring the situation under control. A second church was burned down.

Copts, who marched last night to the state TV station, called for national unity but blocked roads and raised tensions.

Egyptian media described the Imbaba attackers as Salafis � fundamentalist Muslims who want the imposition of sharia law. The Salafis, often with links to Saudi Arabia, are seen as having become more visible because internal security is less repressive now than before the revolution. It is also widely believed that elements of the Mubarak regime are encouraging them.

"It's the previous regime that is responsible for this," one distraught resident told reporters. "We demand that the higher military council punish all those responsible for this crime," said George Ishaq, a pro-democracy activist. "This is a crime � not sectarian strife."

The incident was condemned by the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's main Islamist grouping. "We should crack down on that violence and not let those people ruin what we achieved in the January revolution," said a spokesman, Essam el-Erian. "The Imbaba incident clearly shows that there are some people who are still working behind the scenes to ignite sectarian strife in Egypt." Erian echoed popular feeling in suggesting that attacks may have been encouraged by members of the now disbanded National Democratic Party, which ruled Egypt during the Mubarak era.

Mohamed ElBaradei, former head of the UN nuclear watchdog and a presidential hopeful, called for "urgent measures � to combat religious extremism and intolerance before Egypt slides into the dark ages".

Salafis demonstrated in front of the US embassy in Cairo last week after the killing of Osama Bin Laden.

Last month 13 people died in similar Muslim-Coptic clashes in another Cairo neighbourhood. Copts make up about 10% of Egypt's 80 million people.

Over the weekend, democracy activists held a conference to discuss the future of the revolution in advance of landmark parliamentary elections planned for September. The Muslim Brotherhood boycotted the event, saying that the priority was to change the constitution for the post-Mubarak era.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/08/egypt-copts-muslims-clash-cairo

# ? May 9, 2011 19:22

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's been rumours on Twitter from various sources of Gaddafi's troops forcing migrants onto boats, and forcing them to sail out to see. Nothing has been confirmed, until now:

quote:

GENEVA, May 9 (Reuters) - Traumatised migrants have told the International Organization for Migration (IOM) they saw a boat carrying hundreds of people founder off the Libyan coast last week, the agency said on Monday.

The migrants who reached Italy's Lampedusa island, a collection point, also said Libyan soldiers drove them onto another vessel in what IOM officials said was the first known forced evacuation from Libya in the current conflict.

The sinking boat was seen between Thursday and Friday last week just off Tripoli, the Libyan capital controlled by forces loyal to Mummar Gaddafi. It had been carrying 500 to 600 people, the IOM said, citing the migrants it had interviewed.

They saw bodies washed ashore in Libya and it was not clear how many survived. One Somali woman managed to swim to land and board another vessel, but she lost her four-month-old baby who had been with her, the agency said.

"She was in a state of shock when she arrived on Lampedusa," Daria Storia of the IOM said. "She was clearly very disorientated and agitated when we spoke to her."

There are increasing reports of boat tragedies in the Mediterranean as desperate migrants seek to flee the Libyan conflict.

Since unrest erupted across much of North Africa earlier this year, more than 10,000 migrants of various nationalities, have arrived on Lampedusa, situated between Sicily and Tunisia, and the neighbouring island of Linosa.

This weekend alone nearly 2,000 people arrived on five boats, according to IOM figures.

In a rescue operation alongside other humanitarian agencies, the Geneva-based IOM has evacuated 6,263 people from Misrata to Benghazi, effectively the rebel capital in the east of the country.

The IOM said that after the migrants saw one vessel sinking late last week, many had decided against trying to get to Italy, but they told the IMO Libyan soldiers and officials had forced them on to another boat by shooting into the air.

"People have been arriving in Lampedusa for about five weeks. This is the first time people have said they were forced," said Jean-Philippe Chauzy of the IOM.

Many of the migrants from Libya had said they have not had to pay for their passage, others said they had paid a nominal fee and some said that soldiers and officials had stripped them of their savings and possessions, including mobile phones.

Tunisian migrants arriving on Lampedusa have been paying up to 1,200 euros ($1,676) to make the sea journey on smugglers' boats from Tunisia.

ShababLibya just posted this too:

quote:

Musrata's revolutionaries move west towards Tripoli and are only 7 miles from Zleetin. via AJ

That would reflect what was being said about the rebels being 25km away yesterday, maybe they are actually moving towards Zliten.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 20:44 on May 9, 2011

# ? May 9, 2011 20:37

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Another development via Reuters in the last hour:

quote:

Libyan rebels are leading an uprising in the suburbs of Tripoli after being supplied with light weapons by defecting security service officers, an opposition newspaper said on Monday.

The report, on the website of the opposition newspaper Brnieq, could not be independently verified.

The story quoted witnesses who said a full-scale uprising against the rule of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi was taking place in the suburbs of Tripoli. It said protesters were preparing to head towards the city centre.

# ? May 9, 2011 21:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's lots of chatter on Twitter at the moment about "Mohamed Elmgariaf Brigade in Tripoli" joining the rebels and providing civilians with weapons, and that the rebel flag has been raised over Mitiga Air Force base near Tripoli.

# ? May 9, 2011 22:15

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

In news from Afghanistan, it appears that the rebels there are still able to provide a formidable challenge to the occupiers and corrupt "democracy" with its stolen elections.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/world/asia/09afghanistan.html

quote:

The scale and organization of the attack as well as the targeting of government buildings suggested that the Taliban had been planning it for some time � and that they had relied on support from inside Kandahar.

Among the places singled out were the provincial governor�s palace, the police headquarters, the transportation police headquarters, a police substation and other buildings used by the military, according to a NATO statement.

Those are among the most well-guarded spots in Kandahar, the biggest city in southern Afghanistan and a major base for NATO forces.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/09/us-afghanistan-violence-idUSTRE7481XX20110509

quote:

The U.S. Embassy in Kabul issued a security bulletin in which it said it had received specific threats of attacks in three areas in Helmand province. It gave no details about the nature of the threats.

Helmand lies west of Kandahar, the birthplace of the Taliban and the focus of efforts by tens of thousands of U.S., NATO and Afghan troops to quell a growing insurgency over the past year.
...
Taliban insurgents ambushed and killed four Afghan police in central Ghazni province on Sunday, police said.

Unfortunately, the attacks against the regime were largely repelled, but then again, unlike the freedom fighters in Libya, the rebels in Afghanistan are being attacked by NATO airstrikes rather than getting air support and supplies from NATO.

# ? May 9, 2011 22:27

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Someone posted this unverifiable info on Twitter:

quote:

The Central Security forces have joined the anti Gaddafi revolutionary forces a short while ago today distributing to them a significant source of weapons they never had before. This is a most critical development in this key city of Libya where the final episode of the Libyan revolution against Gaddafi will pan out. Additionally the 3 coloured independence flag is now flying over Maeetega military airport just on the outskirts of Tripoli.

Other developments conformed today: -

1. The official spokeman for the Foriegn Ministry, Musa Ibrahim, has left the regime.

2. Eman Al Obeidi, the woman who ventured to the journalists hotel in Tripoli, Rixos has left Libya through the Tunisian border and is now heading to Qatar.

All of the above are clear indications that the Gaddafi regime is on its last legs as it was in the early part of the revolution when Gaddafi was rumoured to have fled or about to flee to Venezuela. God willing if this continues at this pace a conclusion to this part of the revolution is being played out this week and is unlikely to continue for long.

# ? May 9, 2011 22:49

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Either there's a massive amount of bullshit being spread about, or something major is happening in Tripoli.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 9, 2011

# ? May 9, 2011 23:05

DonT15: Oct 31, 2010

Brown Moses posted:

Either there's a massive amount of bullshit being spread about, or something major is happening in Tripoli.

Keep posting updates!! We really appreciate them!

# ? May 9, 2011 23:12

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Either there's uprisings across Tripoli, with gunfire and explosions, or it's all bullshit, there's no real confirmation at the moment.

# ? May 9, 2011 23:23

Shageletic: Jul 25, 2007

According to the Feb 17 website:

quote:

Al-Jazeera ARabic reports that the rebels have raised the Independence flag above Mitiga Air Force Base in Tripoli.

# ? May 9, 2011 23:37

Chronojam: Feb 20, 2006; This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

Can anybody who understands Arabic confirm that off the stream?

# ? May 9, 2011 23:38

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

When can we expect some reliable confirmation from the foreign media in Tripoli? I know it's midnight there.

# ? May 9, 2011 23:39

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

How far away can one hear gunfire and small explosions in a city?
Because nothing from journalists in Rixos hotel yet, if there was anything going on close to their neighborhood we would probably be hearing about it.

# ? May 9, 2011 23:43

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

How far the sound of gunfire travels depends on a lot of things, but it is often identifiable a mile or more, especially repeated gunfire.

Explosions can be heard many, many miles away.

# ? May 10, 2011 00:04

Ballz: Dec 16, 2003; it's mario time

Fingers crossed, but maybe this will finally be what breaks the back of the Gadaffi regime.

# ? May 10, 2011 00:20

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Chronojam posted:

Can anybody who understands Arabic confirm that off the stream?

A quick glance over Al Jazeera Arabic doesn't yield anything about Tripoli.

# ? May 10, 2011 00:39

Chade Johnson: Oct 12, 2009; by Ozmaugh

I heard that every brigade in the Libyan Army defected and that all of Gaddafis family is dead and he is currently holed up in the wolfs den

# ? May 10, 2011 01:12

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

ChaosSamusX posted:

Wasn't there a folk song this topic linked to that referred to Misrata as the City of Heroes or something like that? It's weird that this war is producing its own national mythology even though it isn't even over yet.

The only folk song I remember from this this thread was the one that rebels were singing around a campfire at night, but that one was about Benghazi ('The City of Light', IIRC). Either way you're right, although I don't find it weird in the slightest; wars strongly stimulate the development of national mythology, folklore, and other cultural works. (Star-Spangled banner, anyone?)

Also, thanks for the updates guys, no doubt I'm gonna be :f5:

in' like a maniac until we know what the scoop is.

# ? May 10, 2011 02:00

Chronojam: Feb 20, 2006; This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!

Chade Johnson posted:

I heard that every brigade in the Libyan Army defected and that all of Gaddafis family is dead and he is currently holed up in the wolfs den

Wow you're telling us that random bits on twitter are unreliable? :allears:

You've already made a point that is self-evident to anybody reasonable, no need to harp on it.

# ? May 10, 2011 02:09

MothraAttack: Apr 28, 2008

Reuters and BBC are reporting unusually heavy bombing of Tripoli tonight, apparently targeting Gaddafi's compound.

edit: Looks like bombings might have targeted a cell phone tower, the state media apparatus and another govt ministry building as well.

MothraAttack fucked around with this message at 03:53 on May 10, 2011

# ? May 10, 2011 03:49

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Al Jazeera posted:

Delegates from 25 Libyan councils have declared their support for the Transitional National Council, Libya's opposition party.

The leaders who were elected under Muammar Gaddafi's rule have been meeting in the United Arab Emirates, marking the first time delegates from the western and southern regions including tribal figures have met to discuss Libya's future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QD_iI87jfFw&feature=player_embedded

Does anyone know who these guys are? I ask because "council" is a common translation when referring to Libyan politics. It sounds like their regional or local committees or councils.

# ? May 10, 2011 04:35

King Dopplepopolos: Aug 3, 2007; Give us a raise, loser!

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Unfortunately, the attacks against the regime were largely repelled, but then again, unlike the freedom fighters in Libya, the rebels in Afghanistan are being attacked by NATO airstrikes rather than getting air support and supplies from NATO.

That's because the Taliban are just as awful as Colonel Qaddafi. Hope this helps.

E: Not that the puppet government is all rainbows and ponies, either.

# ? May 10, 2011 04:42

AreWeDrunkYet: Jul 8, 2006

King Dopplepopolos posted:

That's because the Taliban are just as awful as Colonel Qaddafi. Hope this helps.

E: Not that the puppet government is all rainbows and ponies, either.

It wasn't an entirely serious post, just a friendly reminder that the west picks and chooses whether an undemocratic state is toppled, installed, propped up, or ignored. The Taliban and Libyan rebels obviously aren't entirely comparable, but when it comes down to it, the underlying causes for the insurgency in Afghanistan and the revolt in Libya are one and the same.

AreWeDrunkYet fucked around with this message at 05:22 on May 10, 2011

# ? May 10, 2011 05:12

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

It wasn't an entirely serious post, just a friendly reminder that the west picks and chooses whether an undemocratic state is toppled, installed, propped up, or ignored. The Taliban and Libyan rebels obviously aren't entirely comparable, but when it comes down to it, the underlying causes for the insurgency in Afghanistan and the revolt in Libya are one and the same.

Literally the only thing they have in common is that they want something other than the status quo.

Libyans want some form of representative government and civil rights. The Taliban wants a fundamentalist autocracy where they can go back to executing woman for adultery in stadiums.

# ? May 10, 2011 05:50

evilweasel: Aug 24, 2002

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

It wasn't an entirely serious post, just a friendly reminder that the west picks and chooses whether an undemocratic state is toppled, installed, propped up, or ignored. The Taliban and Libyan rebels obviously aren't entirely comparable, but when it comes down to it, the underlying causes for the insurgency in Afghanistan and the revolt in Libya are one and the same.

Only if you forget the Taliban existed before the rigged election.

# ? May 10, 2011 05:58

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

evilweasel posted:

Only if you forget the Taliban existed before the rigged election.

And that they not only bought and sold votes, but also intimidated voters and pretty much anything else Jimmy Carter would frown upon.

# ? May 10, 2011 05:59

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

Yeah sure, the Afghan govt is pretty nasty, violent and corrupt, but not yet Gaddafi-crazy-evil-grade.

Contrast:
-The Taliban want theocracy, stoning women and banning music.
-The Free Libyans have women officials, guitarists on the frontline and asked the UN to help with municipal elections.

# ? May 10, 2011 06:59

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

ecureuilmatrix posted:

Yeah sure, the Afghan govt is pretty nasty, violent and corrupt, but not yet Gaddafi-crazy-evil-grade.

Contrast:
-The Taliban want theocracy, stoning women and banning music.
-The Free Libyans have women officials, guitarists on the frontline and asked the UN to help with municipal elections.

The free Libyans might also want to privatize oil to companies like BP and pretty much give away the country's natural resources

the prime minister of the rebels is the very same dude to organize privatization under Qaddafi which lead to high unemployment

political rights are meaningless if it means people are going to suffer economically for it

# ? May 10, 2011 08:24

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

There's really not much more news from Tripoli, gun fire was reported by journalists in the Rixos hotels, as well as explosion likely caused by the airstrikes that have been reported, but as they can't leave the hotel without minders there's no way to get independent confirmation of what's happened in the Tripoli in the last 12 hours.

One thing to watch out for over the next couple of days are reports about rebels heading to Zliten from Misrata. Over the last couple of days there's been reports of troops from Misrata move westwards towards Zliten, on Sunday it was claimed they were 25km, and yesterday 10km away.

My understanding is that Zliten was occupied early on by Gaddafi's forces, and it has been used as a staging ground for attacks on Misrata. Since Gaddafi's forces were pushed out of Misrata they've pulled back to Zliten, and if the rumours are to be believed it seems like the rebels are pushing them back as far as possible. There's also the belief that once the Misrata rebels reach Zliten the rebels who are hiding in Zliten will rise up and start attacking Gaddafi's forces, trapping them between the two fronts.

The red line on the below map is where they claimed to be on Sunday, and the green line is where they claimed to be at the end of yesterday. If they are making progress in that area it's interesting as it's mainly a series of farms, with what appears to be orchards, so it would mean they are making progress across fairly open terrain. The area they claimed to have reach now is where there's more buildings, but it's probably a few more km west where you start seeing built up suburbs. It should be interesting to see what reports come from that area in the next few days.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

# ? May 10, 2011 08:53

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Ardennes posted:

political rights are meaningless if it means people are going to suffer economically for it

As someone who doesnt have the benefit of electing his officials I have a huge temptation to say something along the lines of "gently caress off you dont know what it's like to know every waking day that you can be dragged away killed and tortured without trial at any moment for speaking your mind because every third person you know is an informant and knowing that you'll have the same guy in office from when you're born right until you reach 50 without a glimmer of hope of voting him out of his chair. or be persecuted for campaigning for other people to have the right to have a lawyer around when they're being sentenced to a million lashes for questioning the mindset of the clerical judges who'd persecute a woman to 200 lashes for having the audacity of being raped, etc."

Instead I'll just say that while political rights dont give people instant economic success, Given time and voting, it offers the mechanisms of change and improvement and makes it essentially less bad as other forms of government does and ensures a level of accountability and efficiency that other forms of governments dont, so while some guy might do some lovely policies in office, it's important to offer people the option of booting him out.

Be thankful that you have at least that, alot of people have to go through a shower of blood just to have that.

# ? May 10, 2011 08:57

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

"Unless you're offering a socialist utopia I'll just keep my mad dictator, thank you very much!"

# ? May 10, 2011 09:01

Space Monster: Mar 13, 2009

Al-Saqr posted:

As someone who doesnt have the benefit of electing his officials I have a huge temptation to say something along the lines of "gently caress off you dont know what it's like to know every waking day that you can be dragged away killed and tortured without trial at any moment for speaking your mind because every third person you know is an informant and knowing that you'll have the same guy in office from when you're born right until you reach 50 without a glimmer of hope of voting him out of his chair. or be persecuted for campaigning for other people to have the right to have a lawyer around when they're being sentenced to a million lashes for questioning the mindset of the clerical judges who'd persecute a woman to 200 lashes for having the audacity of being raped, etc."

Instead I'll just say that while political rights dont give people instant economic success, Given time and voting, it offers the mechanisms of change and improvement and makes it essentially less bad as other forms of government does and ensures a level of accountability and efficiency that other forms of governments dont, so while some guy might do some lovely policies in office, it's important to offer people the option of booting him out.

Be thankful that you have at least that, alot of people have to go through a shower of blood just to have that.

This is basically the most awesome thing I've ever read.

# ? May 10, 2011 09:29

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live blogs May 10th
AJE
Feb17.info
Guardian

# ? May 10, 2011 09:57

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Egypt's former tourism minister Zoheir Garranah just got jailed for 5 years for his various dodgy dealings as part of the Mubarak regime.

NATO's report for May 9th

quote:

In the vicinity of Tripoli: 3 Command & Control Facilities.
In the vicinity of Mizdah: 15 Ammunition Storages.
In the vicinity of Misurata: 1 Tank, 1 Command & Control Node.
In the vicinity of Sirte: 2 Ammunition Storages.

That's just some of the targets they hit, not all of them. Mizdah is probably where a lot of supplies being used in Zintan and Misrata are coming from.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 10:34 on May 10, 2011

# ? May 10, 2011 10:28

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# ? May 16, 2024 03:00

Killer robot: Sep 6, 2010; I was having the most wonderful dream. I think you were in it!; Pillbug

Brown Moses posted:

"Unless you're offering a socialist utopia I'll just keep my mad dictator, thank you very much!"

This is the thing that gets me. It's reasonable to not want to blindly back anyone who isn't the existing regime. It's reasonable to insist that those taking power be expected to uphold rule of law, human rights, and other principles of moral and ethical government.

Still, I've seen it going back at least to the Egyptian protests, with "do we want to give these people democracy? They'll just vote for anti-americans/Islamists/capitalists/bogeyman-of-choice!" Add levels of "those brown savages clearly aren't ready" to taste.

That part. That's not cool. Wanting to be sure that a population's shift to self-determined government is actually fair and transparent is great. Damning the idea because those crazy kids might make a bad choice, or one you don't support, not so much.

# ? May 10, 2011 11:16

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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