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RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Grendels Dad posted:

Well, in this case Rock kind of *tricked* the referee into believing that Mick Foley was still conscious.

Additionally, nobody would go the "Ask Him!"-route if they could just as well pummel their opponent into unconsciousness and win just as well. The aim is to humiliate your opponent by beating on him so much that he begs you to stop. Beating him so much that he can't say it anymore might make you look like a badass, but it goes against what the reason for the match actually is.
No, it just puts that guy over as a tough, stubborn son of a bitch. If the referee stops the match because they absolutely refuse to say I Quit, that doesn't make them lose face value at all. The way Rocky won, put them both over. It was smart booking so I'm not sure why there's any argument at all over that finish.

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Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Flameingblack posted:

No, it just puts that guy over as a tough, stubborn son of a bitch. If the referee stops the match because they absolutely refuse to say I Quit, that doesn't make them lose face value at all. The way Rocky won, put them both over. It was smart booking so I'm not sure why there's any argument at all over that finish.

I'm not sure either, but the ending wasn't "The Rock won because Mick Foley was unconscious". The ending was "The Rock won because he played a record while Foley was unconscious", which goes a long way in restoring some of Foley's credibility.

I think the disagreement is about whether the result would have been any different if the ref just went "Stop this match, Foley is done for, Rocky wins", and I'm saying this is the case.

Writer Cath
Apr 1, 2007

Box. Flipped.
Plaster Town Cop
When Lesnar was first ascending up the card, he had a mini feud with the Hardys and at one point, Brock won a match because the ref deemed that Matt was incapable of continuing. It did a great job of making Brock look like an absolute monster and Hardy sold like he was being murdered in the ring. I'm not saying that's a finish that should be regularly used, but it can be an extremely effective way to build up a monster type of wrestler.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.
But Rock wasn't supposed to be build up as a monster. He was supposed to be build up as a cocky asshat who could still hold his own, and the bullshit ending to that match achieved that, because he still looked like a badass for beating Mick Foley like that, but he also looked like a dick because he needed to do something like that to finish it.

DannoMack
Aug 1, 2003

i love it when you call me big poppa
Has there ever been a gimmick where a mask had powers and took over different wrestlers who wore it? Or am I thinking of the film The Mask starring Jim Carrey?

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Grendels Dad posted:

I'm not sure either, but the ending wasn't "The Rock won because Mick Foley was unconscious". The ending was "The Rock won because he played a record while Foley was unconscious", which goes a long way in restoring some of Foley's credibility.

I think the disagreement is about whether the result would have been any different if the ref just went "Stop this match, Foley is done for, Rocky wins", and I'm saying this is the case.
If The referee had just ended the match, then Rock would have cut a different promo saying that he forced Mankind into a coma. Same result, but a slightly different promo on the RAW after.

But still, the original ending was the absolute best way to end that match. And that's what happened, I don't know why people are trying to fight over it.

Lamuella
Jun 26, 2003

It's like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron.


if the ref had stopped the match, and awarded the victory and the world title to Rock without Foley having said "I Quit", the fans would have hated that ref with a passion that would make the "you screwed Bret" chants towards Hebner seem like lovesongs. Whether or not the ref would have been technically within the rules to do so, a crowd that was behind Foley would have shat all over a finish like that.

Remember, the initial plan for the finish was to have Colette Foley come out and throw in the towel for Mick. This was later rejected because rather than elevating the Rock as a heel it would have given Colette nuclear heat.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Flameingblack posted:

If The referee had just ended the match, then Rock would have cut a different promo saying that he forced Mankind into a coma. Same result, but a slightly different promo on the RAW after.

But still, the original ending was the absolute best way to end that match. And that's what happened, I don't know why people are trying to fight over it.

And Mick Foley would have reasons to demand a rematch, because he loved it so much how Rock beat him into a coma?

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Grendels Dad posted:

And Mick Foley would have reasons to demand a rematch, because he loved it so much how Rock beat him into a coma?
He would have had a reason to demand a re-match either way if he wanted to. There's two branching story outcomes with this alternative ref-stoppage ending, but they're both basically exactly the same.

Lamuella
Jun 26, 2003

It's like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron.


Flameingblack posted:

He would have had a reason to demand a re-match either way if he wanted to. There's two branching story outcomes with this alternative ref-stoppage ending, but they're both basically exactly the same.

I don't think they're exactly the same. "I want a remach because I didn't really lose" is a stronger case to get behind than "I want a rematch because you beat me into unconsciousness". Of course, in both cases, as the former champ he'd get a rematch, but one has a better story behind it than the other.

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Lamuella posted:

I don't think they're exactly the same. "I want a remach because I didn't really lose" is a stronger case to get behind than "I want a rematch because you beat me into unconsciousness". Of course, in both cases, as the former champ he'd get a rematch, but one has a better story behind it than the other.
That's what I mean, really. Either way, Mick Foley makes the argument that he never said "I Quit", but Rock gets over as a heel in an entirely different way, forcing him to get his heat in a promo, rather than the ending of a match.

Beef Jerky Robot
Sep 20, 2009

"And the DICK?"

The original argument wasn't if it was an effective ending or not, it was if piping in "I QUIT" counted as a clean win or not.

Web Jew.0
May 13, 2009

Grendels Dad posted:

It is worse in wrestling-land, where people Never Quit. Why is it so hard for people to get the distinction between tapping out and saying Oh God Oh God Please Make It Stop into their heads? One is like being pinned, it sucks but is kind of part of the deal. The other is verbally expressing your inferiority. Nobody says it's not kind of childish, so if it helps, think of it as a Say Uncle-match.


Because it's a a different kind of match! I don't know if you are being deliberately obtuse, but your question basically boils down to "They are not the same type of match, why do they have different rules?"


And it's not like the rules can't change into anything that's needed at the moment, either. Anyway, the I Quit-match is supposed to be more eXtreme than a submission-match. You don't just slap a submission-hold on your opponent, you try to crush him with a forklift!

I don't really agree that saying it is any worse than gesturing the same thing. I'm kinda having a hard time thinking of real life / sports examples where it's worse to say something vs signing it.

It's never been presented or implied that an I Quit match wouldn't be stopped by unconsciousness so I don't see why you're saying that rule even exists.

Lamuella
Jun 26, 2003

It's like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron.


Web Jew.0 posted:

It's never been presented or implied that an I Quit match wouldn't be stopped by unconsciousness so I don't see why you're saying that rule even exists.

Has it ever been presented or implied that it would?

In the promotion for every I Quit match I've ever seen, there has been a line to the effect of "The only way to win is to make your opponent say "I Quit"". If you could also win by knocking your opponent unconscious, wouldn't they mention that?

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Lamuella posted:

Has it ever been presented or implied that it would?

In the promotion for every I Quit match I've ever seen, there has been a line to the effect of "The only way to win is to make your opponent say "I Quit"". If you could also win by knocking your opponent unconscious, wouldn't they mention that?
That's generally the stipulation to a Last Man Standing/Texas Death Match. I would gander to say that a referee would be forced to stop a match in an I Quit when they go unconscious simply to save their lives.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Flameingblack posted:

That's generally the stipulation to a Last Man Standing/Texas Death Match. I would gander to say that a referee would be forced to stop a match in an I Quit when they go unconscious simply to save their lives.

A Last Man Standing match is a match were you win by keeping your opponent down until the referee counts to ten. It doesn't matter if the opponent is unconscious, just dazed, or fixed to a ringpost with duct tape, apparently.

An I Quit match is a match where you win by making your opponent say I Quit into a microphone. Hypothetical unconsciousness to save anybody's lives do not factor into these requirements, I'm not sure why you keep insisting it does?

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Grendels Dad posted:

A Last Man Standing match is a match were you win by keeping your opponent down until the referee counts to ten. It doesn't matter if the opponent is unconscious, just dazed, or fixed to a ringpost with duct tape, apparently.

An I Quit match is a match where you win by making your opponent say I Quit into a microphone. Hypothetical unconsciousness to save anybody's lives do not factor into these requirements, I'm not sure why you keep insisting it does?
It doesn't matter if their unconscious, you just have to keep them down for ten seconds. Knocking them out though, would be grounds for legitimately winning a Last Man Standing match. There wouldn't be a need to continue the match any longer.

On the other hand, in an I Quit match, if it were called due to TKO, it's up to the referee's discretion, since there's never been an instance (That I recall) where the referee has ever had to make that decision, it's hypothetical. The Rock made the referee believe that Mankind was still conscious enough to scream "I Quit" which ended the match. That was what happened, there's no point in arguing these hypothetical What If's.

If the Rock was meant to win, he would have won either way. The story would have gone relatively the same. I don't know why this is a deal to anyone. Wrestling isn't real. If the WWE wanted a referee's decision to count as a legitimate win in an I Quit match, they can do whatever they please.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
I agree, in kayfabe they would literally let a man die in the ring.

facebook jihad
Dec 18, 2007

by R. Guyovich
It will never happen because letting a man kayfabe go unconscious in an I Quit match is really stupid booking on the grounds of what we have discussed. It's just confusing and leads to controversy like this.

My whole argument is that going unconscious in an I Quit match is the same as going unconscious in a Submission match. An I Quit match is not an "extreme" version of a submission match because you don't have to quit due to a submission, as seen by the way the Bautista/Cena I Quit match ended last year.

Grendels Dad posted:

And Mick Foley would have reasons to demand a rematch, because he loved it so much how Rock beat him into a coma?

But, see...the Rock did beat him into a coma anyway, the continuation of the feud hinged on the recording, I guess--but all these hypotheticals aren't really hypothetical due to that.

Lamuella
Jun 26, 2003

It's like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron.


Flameingblack posted:

That's generally the stipulation to a Last Man Standing/Texas Death Match. I would gander to say that a referee would be forced to stop a match in an I Quit when they go unconscious simply to save their lives.

I'm fairly sure that's the case for a Last Man Standing match, but an I Quit match isn't a Last Man Standing match, and has different rules and different victory conditions.

like I said before. the I Quit match is a weird one because it requires the loser to actually do something. Indeed, it's about the only match in which unconsciousness wouldn't mean your opponent could win unopposed. An unconscious guy can get pinned, can lie on the floor while his opponent escapes a cage or climbs a ladder, can be thrown over a top rope, off a scaffold, through a table, or into the gulf of Mexico, can be stripped of his/her evening gown or tuxedo or can be dressed in a weasel suit, but they can't say "I Quit". I can well understand why people think this is ridiculous, and it's one reason I don't like these kind of matches. Inventing other ways in which the match can be lost doesn't strike me as a good way of addressing the problem, though.

Minidust
Nov 4, 2009

Keep bustin'
It's like saying that a Royal Rumble could be won by ref stoppage. They've never explicitly said that it couldn't happen, it would just be incredibly stupid booking if it did.

And again, this arguing over the I Quit finish is just because the Rock/Foley match was being cited as an example of a clean win.

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Lamuella posted:

I'm fairly sure that's the case for a Last Man Standing match, but an I Quit match isn't a Last Man Standing match, and has different rules and different victory conditions.

like I said before. the I Quit match is a weird one because it requires the loser to actually do something. Indeed, it's about the only match in which unconsciousness wouldn't mean your opponent could win unopposed. An unconscious guy can get pinned, can lie on the floor while his opponent escapes a cage or climbs a ladder, can be thrown over a top rope, off a scaffold, through a table, or into the gulf of Mexico, can be stripped of his/her evening gown or tuxedo or can be dressed in a weasel suit, but they can't say "I Quit". I can well understand why people think this is ridiculous, and it's one reason I don't like these kind of matches. Inventing other ways in which the match can be lost doesn't strike me as a good way of addressing the problem, though.
Bottom line is still this though, the WWE can book an I Quit match any way they want. But if they book Cena/Miz this weekend in a way that Miz beats Cena until he passes out, then it drat well better be the focal point to the feud for the next couple months.

The only reason they would book an I Quit match to go that way, is if it were part of a story. If not, then the WWE needs to fire creative.

Hirams Bitch
Oct 24, 2008

Flameingblack posted:

Bottom line is still this though, the WWE can book an I Quit match any way they want. But if they book Cena/Miz this weekend in a way that Miz beats Cena until he passes out, then it drat well better be the focal point to the feud for the next couple months.

The only reason they would book an I Quit match to go that way, is if it were part of a story. If not, then the WWE needs to fire creative.

Why would you want ways for the feud to continue for a couple months? This feud is bad and needs to be over.

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011

It delays the inevitable burying of Del Rio?

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Hirams Bitch posted:

Why would you want ways for the feud to continue for a couple months? This feud is bad and needs to be over.
I don't, I want Cena/Del Rio or Miz/Mysterio.

savinhill
Mar 28, 2010

Hirams Bitch posted:

Why would you want ways for the feud to continue for a couple months? This feud is bad and needs to be over.
I'm thinking this match will be Miz's version of Wade getting buried with the chairs.

Bumble Bee
Dec 21, 2005

by Lowtax
If it matters at this point I asked the original question (has a face ever lost an I Quit match clean?) with the Rock and Mankind in my mind as the only time I can remember a face losing, and it not being a clean victory.

RealFoxy
May 11, 2011

I'm not making a fucking QCS thread for this but seriously can we take a harder stance on Kiwifarms freaks like this guy, Jesus Christ seriously, you used to be better at knocking these creeps down. I guess ADTRW mods aren't responsible like GBS mods are.

Bumble Bee posted:

If it matters at this point I asked the original question (has a face ever lost an I Quit match clean?) with the Rock and Mankind in my mind as the only time I can remember a face losing, and it not being a clean victory.
Gimmick matches were originally there to put the face over in a feud-ending match. Chavo beat Rey Mysterio in an I Quit match, I don't remember if it was cleanly or not. Here's a list of I Quit matches, you'll have to do a little bit of research to figure out who was the face/heel of the feud:
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/information/iquit-match/

Minidust
Nov 4, 2009

Keep bustin'

Flameingblack posted:

Gimmick matches were originally there to put the face over in a feud-ending match. Chavo beat Rey Mysterio in an I Quit match, I don't remember if it was cleanly or not. Here's a list of I Quit matches, you'll have to do a little bit of research to figure out who was the face/heel of the feud:
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/information/iquit-match/
Chavo beat Rey clean as a whistle that one time. Hanged him by his leg off a part of the set, and hit him with a chair until he screamed I Quit in the mic. It really stuck out in my mind because it was the only time I remember a face legit losing an I Quit like that.

Another finish I forgot about is where the face quits because the opponent threatens their female friend with physical harm. They used this for both HHH and Foley (with Chyna and Melina, respectively). In both cases the female swerved with a heel turn immediately afterwards. I suppose this is "clean" in the sense that the referee can look right at it and not do anything about it, but it's definitely cheap and not the same dominant form of putting someone over that they did with Chavo (feels so odd to type that). Seriously CHAVO has had the most dominant booking of any heel in an I Quit match :psyboom:

Minidust fucked around with this message at 18:26 on May 19, 2011

facebook jihad
Dec 18, 2007

by R. Guyovich
I Quit matches seem like a good way to garner short term excitement at the expense of long term quality. Granted, I can't say I have seen many I Quit matches, but it seems like a really good way to kill off a heel's heat and credibility as well. I don't see how a heel can say "I Quit" in front of an audience of millions and then come back and feud with anyone while being an intimidating threat. I guess this doesn't count for cowardly heels like the Miz, but then again why would they be in I Quit matches anyway since they aren't really intimidating and would rather be "put in their place" in a match with no chance of outside interference or cheating, such as a cage match.

What I'm trying to say is why the gently caress are they booking an I Quit match between Cena and the Miz?

HulkaMatt
Feb 14, 2006

BIG BICEPS SHOHEI


Because they feel like it.

STING 64
Oct 20, 2006

if you people really think that the finish is going to be anything other than cena making miz scream "i quit" like a total pussy then you have learned absolutely nothing.

EazyBreezy
Jul 9, 2009
WWE Creative Team Meetings on any given day:

"Sure, that angle seems totally logical and the fans will love it."

followed by

"Good, it's settled...we are going to book the total opposite. Let's go have a beer."

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
It's more like "Here's an idea that's either really cool or really out there. Everyone agreed?"

Everyone agrees.

*Plane flight to venue*

*Script lands completely different due to Vince and the tales of a man-beaver hybrid*

MisterGBH
Dec 6, 2010

Eric Bischoff is full of shit
So about that documentary Exposed! Wrestling Greatest Secrets (STUNT GRANNY!)

Were there any perfomers in it who were note worthy? I seem to remember Bill Watts and Dusty been banded around but I haven't seen it since it first aired.

Was anybody looked down on or black balled for participating?

Rusty Shackelford
Feb 7, 2005

MisterGBH posted:

So about that documentary Exposed! Wrestling Greatest Secrets (STUNT GRANNY!)

Were there any perfomers in it who were note worthy? I seem to remember Bill Watts and Dusty been banded around but I haven't seen it since it first aired.

Was anybody looked down on or black balled for participating?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499206/

Harley Race, the Pitbulls and Michael Modest. I don't think anyone was blackballed.

George Kaplan
Mar 12, 2006

DannoMack posted:

Has there ever been a gimmick where a mask had powers and took over different wrestlers who wore it? Or am I thinking of the film The Mask starring Jim Carrey?

No, but there was ALMOST a cool angle in which Charlie Haas could only win matches while wearing a luchador mask. It was killed when they had Bob Holly laugh at him, tear the mask off and beat the snot out of him.

That'll teach him for thinking for himself!

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

ADRIEN GRODYS FIFE posted:

if you people really think that the finish is going to be anything other than cena making miz scream "i quit" like a total pussy then you have learned absolutely nothing.
miz will scream "I quit" while his girlfriend is in the front row and then Cena will go over and make out with her while Miz cries and sucks his thumb.

Lamuella
Jun 26, 2003

It's like goldy or bronzy, but made of iron.


ADRIEN GRODYS FIFE posted:

if you people really think that the finish is going to be anything other than cena making miz scream "i quit" like a total pussy then you have learned absolutely nothing.

I don't know, they've had an angle for a few weeks of Alex Riley accidentally screwing things up for Miz. You could do something with Riley quitting on Miz's behalf, and set up an upcoming Riley / Miz feud.

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Wojtek
Oct 17, 2008

Lamuella posted:

I don't know, they've had an angle for a few weeks of Alex Riley accidentally screwing things up for Miz. You could do something with Riley quitting on Miz's behalf, and set up an upcoming Riley / Miz feud.
Yes let's bury Miz further by giving him a feud with a guy who literally loses every match he's in.

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