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Grendels Dad posted:Well, in this case Rock kind of *tricked* the referee into believing that Mick Foley was still conscious.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:18 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 14:15 |
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Flameingblack posted:No, it just puts that guy over as a tough, stubborn son of a bitch. If the referee stops the match because they absolutely refuse to say I Quit, that doesn't make them lose face value at all. The way Rocky won, put them both over. It was smart booking so I'm not sure why there's any argument at all over that finish. I'm not sure either, but the ending wasn't "The Rock won because Mick Foley was unconscious". The ending was "The Rock won because he played a record while Foley was unconscious", which goes a long way in restoring some of Foley's credibility. I think the disagreement is about whether the result would have been any different if the ref just went "Stop this match, Foley is done for, Rocky wins", and I'm saying this is the case.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:27 |
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When Lesnar was first ascending up the card, he had a mini feud with the Hardys and at one point, Brock won a match because the ref deemed that Matt was incapable of continuing. It did a great job of making Brock look like an absolute monster and Hardy sold like he was being murdered in the ring. I'm not saying that's a finish that should be regularly used, but it can be an extremely effective way to build up a monster type of wrestler.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:28 |
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But Rock wasn't supposed to be build up as a monster. He was supposed to be build up as a cocky asshat who could still hold his own, and the bullshit ending to that match achieved that, because he still looked like a badass for beating Mick Foley like that, but he also looked like a dick because he needed to do something like that to finish it.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:32 |
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Has there ever been a gimmick where a mask had powers and took over different wrestlers who wore it? Or am I thinking of the film The Mask starring Jim Carrey?
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:37 |
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Grendels Dad posted:I'm not sure either, but the ending wasn't "The Rock won because Mick Foley was unconscious". The ending was "The Rock won because he played a record while Foley was unconscious", which goes a long way in restoring some of Foley's credibility. But still, the original ending was the absolute best way to end that match. And that's what happened, I don't know why people are trying to fight over it.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:41 |
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if the ref had stopped the match, and awarded the victory and the world title to Rock without Foley having said "I Quit", the fans would have hated that ref with a passion that would make the "you screwed Bret" chants towards Hebner seem like lovesongs. Whether or not the ref would have been technically within the rules to do so, a crowd that was behind Foley would have shat all over a finish like that. Remember, the initial plan for the finish was to have Colette Foley come out and throw in the towel for Mick. This was later rejected because rather than elevating the Rock as a heel it would have given Colette nuclear heat.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:41 |
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Flameingblack posted:If The referee had just ended the match, then Rock would have cut a different promo saying that he forced Mankind into a coma. Same result, but a slightly different promo on the RAW after. And Mick Foley would have reasons to demand a rematch, because he loved it so much how Rock beat him into a coma?
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:44 |
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Grendels Dad posted:And Mick Foley would have reasons to demand a rematch, because he loved it so much how Rock beat him into a coma?
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:45 |
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Flameingblack posted:He would have had a reason to demand a re-match either way if he wanted to. There's two branching story outcomes with this alternative ref-stoppage ending, but they're both basically exactly the same. I don't think they're exactly the same. "I want a remach because I didn't really lose" is a stronger case to get behind than "I want a rematch because you beat me into unconsciousness". Of course, in both cases, as the former champ he'd get a rematch, but one has a better story behind it than the other.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:48 |
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Lamuella posted:I don't think they're exactly the same. "I want a remach because I didn't really lose" is a stronger case to get behind than "I want a rematch because you beat me into unconsciousness". Of course, in both cases, as the former champ he'd get a rematch, but one has a better story behind it than the other.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:53 |
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The original argument wasn't if it was an effective ending or not, it was if piping in "I QUIT" counted as a clean win or not.
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# ? May 19, 2011 15:57 |
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Grendels Dad posted:It is worse in wrestling-land, where people Never Quit. Why is it so hard for people to get the distinction between tapping out and saying Oh God Oh God Please Make It Stop into their heads? One is like being pinned, it sucks but is kind of part of the deal. The other is verbally expressing your inferiority. Nobody says it's not kind of childish, so if it helps, think of it as a Say Uncle-match. I don't really agree that saying it is any worse than gesturing the same thing. I'm kinda having a hard time thinking of real life / sports examples where it's worse to say something vs signing it. It's never been presented or implied that an I Quit match wouldn't be stopped by unconsciousness so I don't see why you're saying that rule even exists.
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:10 |
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Web Jew.0 posted:It's never been presented or implied that an I Quit match wouldn't be stopped by unconsciousness so I don't see why you're saying that rule even exists. Has it ever been presented or implied that it would? In the promotion for every I Quit match I've ever seen, there has been a line to the effect of "The only way to win is to make your opponent say "I Quit"". If you could also win by knocking your opponent unconscious, wouldn't they mention that?
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:16 |
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Lamuella posted:Has it ever been presented or implied that it would?
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:27 |
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Flameingblack posted:That's generally the stipulation to a Last Man Standing/Texas Death Match. I would gander to say that a referee would be forced to stop a match in an I Quit when they go unconscious simply to save their lives. A Last Man Standing match is a match were you win by keeping your opponent down until the referee counts to ten. It doesn't matter if the opponent is unconscious, just dazed, or fixed to a ringpost with duct tape, apparently. An I Quit match is a match where you win by making your opponent say I Quit into a microphone. Hypothetical unconsciousness to save anybody's lives do not factor into these requirements, I'm not sure why you keep insisting it does?
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:31 |
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Grendels Dad posted:A Last Man Standing match is a match were you win by keeping your opponent down until the referee counts to ten. It doesn't matter if the opponent is unconscious, just dazed, or fixed to a ringpost with duct tape, apparently. On the other hand, in an I Quit match, if it were called due to TKO, it's up to the referee's discretion, since there's never been an instance (That I recall) where the referee has ever had to make that decision, it's hypothetical. The Rock made the referee believe that Mankind was still conscious enough to scream "I Quit" which ended the match. That was what happened, there's no point in arguing these hypothetical What If's. If the Rock was meant to win, he would have won either way. The story would have gone relatively the same. I don't know why this is a deal to anyone. Wrestling isn't real. If the WWE wanted a referee's decision to count as a legitimate win in an I Quit match, they can do whatever they please.
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:41 |
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I agree, in kayfabe they would literally let a man die in the ring.
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:42 |
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It will never happen because letting a man kayfabe go unconscious in an I Quit match is really stupid booking on the grounds of what we have discussed. It's just confusing and leads to controversy like this. My whole argument is that going unconscious in an I Quit match is the same as going unconscious in a Submission match. An I Quit match is not an "extreme" version of a submission match because you don't have to quit due to a submission, as seen by the way the Bautista/Cena I Quit match ended last year. Grendels Dad posted:And Mick Foley would have reasons to demand a rematch, because he loved it so much how Rock beat him into a coma? But, see...the Rock did beat him into a coma anyway, the continuation of the feud hinged on the recording, I guess--but all these hypotheticals aren't really hypothetical due to that.
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:59 |
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Flameingblack posted:That's generally the stipulation to a Last Man Standing/Texas Death Match. I would gander to say that a referee would be forced to stop a match in an I Quit when they go unconscious simply to save their lives. I'm fairly sure that's the case for a Last Man Standing match, but an I Quit match isn't a Last Man Standing match, and has different rules and different victory conditions. like I said before. the I Quit match is a weird one because it requires the loser to actually do something. Indeed, it's about the only match in which unconsciousness wouldn't mean your opponent could win unopposed. An unconscious guy can get pinned, can lie on the floor while his opponent escapes a cage or climbs a ladder, can be thrown over a top rope, off a scaffold, through a table, or into the gulf of Mexico, can be stripped of his/her evening gown or tuxedo or can be dressed in a weasel suit, but they can't say "I Quit". I can well understand why people think this is ridiculous, and it's one reason I don't like these kind of matches. Inventing other ways in which the match can be lost doesn't strike me as a good way of addressing the problem, though.
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# ? May 19, 2011 16:59 |
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It's like saying that a Royal Rumble could be won by ref stoppage. They've never explicitly said that it couldn't happen, it would just be incredibly stupid booking if it did. And again, this arguing over the I Quit finish is just because the Rock/Foley match was being cited as an example of a clean win.
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# ? May 19, 2011 17:05 |
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Lamuella posted:I'm fairly sure that's the case for a Last Man Standing match, but an I Quit match isn't a Last Man Standing match, and has different rules and different victory conditions. The only reason they would book an I Quit match to go that way, is if it were part of a story. If not, then the WWE needs to fire creative.
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# ? May 19, 2011 17:48 |
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Flameingblack posted:Bottom line is still this though, the WWE can book an I Quit match any way they want. But if they book Cena/Miz this weekend in a way that Miz beats Cena until he passes out, then it drat well better be the focal point to the feud for the next couple months. Why would you want ways for the feud to continue for a couple months? This feud is bad and needs to be over.
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# ? May 19, 2011 17:54 |
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It delays the inevitable burying of Del Rio?
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# ? May 19, 2011 17:55 |
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Hirams Bitch posted:Why would you want ways for the feud to continue for a couple months? This feud is bad and needs to be over.
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# ? May 19, 2011 17:56 |
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Hirams Bitch posted:Why would you want ways for the feud to continue for a couple months? This feud is bad and needs to be over.
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# ? May 19, 2011 18:01 |
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If it matters at this point I asked the original question (has a face ever lost an I Quit match clean?) with the Rock and Mankind in my mind as the only time I can remember a face losing, and it not being a clean victory.
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# ? May 19, 2011 18:11 |
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Bumble Bee posted:If it matters at this point I asked the original question (has a face ever lost an I Quit match clean?) with the Rock and Mankind in my mind as the only time I can remember a face losing, and it not being a clean victory. http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/information/iquit-match/
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# ? May 19, 2011 18:14 |
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Flameingblack posted:Gimmick matches were originally there to put the face over in a feud-ending match. Chavo beat Rey Mysterio in an I Quit match, I don't remember if it was cleanly or not. Here's a list of I Quit matches, you'll have to do a little bit of research to figure out who was the face/heel of the feud: Another finish I forgot about is where the face quits because the opponent threatens their female friend with physical harm. They used this for both HHH and Foley (with Chyna and Melina, respectively). In both cases the female swerved with a heel turn immediately afterwards. I suppose this is "clean" in the sense that the referee can look right at it and not do anything about it, but it's definitely cheap and not the same dominant form of putting someone over that they did with Chavo (feels so odd to type that). Seriously CHAVO has had the most dominant booking of any heel in an I Quit match Minidust fucked around with this message at 18:26 on May 19, 2011 |
# ? May 19, 2011 18:18 |
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I Quit matches seem like a good way to garner short term excitement at the expense of long term quality. Granted, I can't say I have seen many I Quit matches, but it seems like a really good way to kill off a heel's heat and credibility as well. I don't see how a heel can say "I Quit" in front of an audience of millions and then come back and feud with anyone while being an intimidating threat. I guess this doesn't count for cowardly heels like the Miz, but then again why would they be in I Quit matches anyway since they aren't really intimidating and would rather be "put in their place" in a match with no chance of outside interference or cheating, such as a cage match. What I'm trying to say is why the gently caress are they booking an I Quit match between Cena and the Miz?
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:13 |
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Because they feel like it.
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:17 |
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if you people really think that the finish is going to be anything other than cena making miz scream "i quit" like a total pussy then you have learned absolutely nothing.
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:17 |
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WWE Creative Team Meetings on any given day: "Sure, that angle seems totally logical and the fans will love it." followed by "Good, it's settled...we are going to book the total opposite. Let's go have a beer."
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:19 |
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It's more like "Here's an idea that's either really cool or really out there. Everyone agreed?" Everyone agrees. *Plane flight to venue* *Script lands completely different due to Vince and the tales of a man-beaver hybrid*
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:21 |
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So about that documentary Exposed! Wrestling Greatest Secrets (STUNT GRANNY!) Were there any perfomers in it who were note worthy? I seem to remember Bill Watts and Dusty been banded around but I haven't seen it since it first aired. Was anybody looked down on or black balled for participating?
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:40 |
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MisterGBH posted:So about that documentary Exposed! Wrestling Greatest Secrets (STUNT GRANNY!) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0499206/ Harley Race, the Pitbulls and Michael Modest. I don't think anyone was blackballed.
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:43 |
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DannoMack posted:Has there ever been a gimmick where a mask had powers and took over different wrestlers who wore it? Or am I thinking of the film The Mask starring Jim Carrey? No, but there was ALMOST a cool angle in which Charlie Haas could only win matches while wearing a luchador mask. It was killed when they had Bob Holly laugh at him, tear the mask off and beat the snot out of him. That'll teach him for thinking for himself!
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:43 |
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ADRIEN GRODYS FIFE posted:if you people really think that the finish is going to be anything other than cena making miz scream "i quit" like a total pussy then you have learned absolutely nothing.
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:43 |
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ADRIEN GRODYS FIFE posted:if you people really think that the finish is going to be anything other than cena making miz scream "i quit" like a total pussy then you have learned absolutely nothing. I don't know, they've had an angle for a few weeks of Alex Riley accidentally screwing things up for Miz. You could do something with Riley quitting on Miz's behalf, and set up an upcoming Riley / Miz feud.
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# ? May 19, 2011 21:45 |
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# ? Mar 28, 2024 14:15 |
Lamuella posted:I don't know, they've had an angle for a few weeks of Alex Riley accidentally screwing things up for Miz. You could do something with Riley quitting on Miz's behalf, and set up an upcoming Riley / Miz feud.
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# ? May 19, 2011 22:35 |