Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

«‹›728 »

gariig: Dec 31, 2004; Beaten into submission by my fiance; Pillbug

I think using LINQ for data manipulation (reversing a string) is a correct way to answer the question. Also, if your developers can't understand

code:

return new string(input.Reverse().ToArray());

you have bigger problems with your team. Nothing in that screams LINQ to me besides why the ToArray() is there. Maybe if you are working on a code base that is still using .NET 2.0 but if you are in 3.5/4 land LINQ is part of a new project.

What if the interviewer asked to see him sort a list of integers? Should he make a class and inherit from CollectionBase since generics are used for "a very specific mindset and fairly specific problem domains" of having typed collections? After three and a half years (.NET 3.5 was release 11/2007) I think using LINQ to answer a question is valid. The interviewer asking him not to use LINQ is also valid as a follow up.

At lest Ithaqua dodged a bullet.

EDIT: Mostly what Milotic especially ignoring all the enhancements Microsoft adds to .NET and C#

# ? May 27, 2011 16:15

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 28, 2024 20:29

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

Theler posted:

When is the right time for a future CS grad to start sending out resumes? For example if I was graduating in December and looking to start a job in January would applying for jobs during August/September be considered too early?

Let me try a more descriptive answer. I think 2 semesters is probably the earliest you'd want to try to get a full-time job directly (obviously this doesn't include offers from internships/part-time work). If that's too early for some companies, they'll probably let you know. Starting to look for work after graduation certainly doesn't seem wise, although if you have good interview skills and a strong resume, the market is good enough now to where you'll probably be fine.

Also keep in mind that since the majority of people graduate around May/June, the big companies that hire new college grads in waves will be oriented around that schedule.

# ? May 27, 2011 17:44

take boat: Jul 8, 2006; boat: TAKEN

umbrage posted:

If I'm hiring someone, I'm going to be looking at how well they can integrate into the established workflow and programming culture, no matter how lovely it is, over whether they know the latest and greatest. LINQ is neat, but it's for a very specific mindset and fairly specific problem domains. If you just came in on your first day and started throwing it around in a shared codebase, that's time commited to

Have to explain to every other developer what LINQ is

Have to wait on them to learn it

Have to explain it to them again

Have to debug their mistakes when they attempt to update your code

Have to debug their misinterpretations when they attempt to refactor your code to something they can understand without spending their evenings reading Essential LINQ

I mean, clearly the shop you interviewed with is not good, at all, and you should refuse an offer, but don't let that excuse the possibility that your attitude about using LINQ was poor.

It comes across as, "When all I have is a hammer, everything looks like a skull," and the shop's dysfunction is a bit of a strawman. You are eventually going to find a shop where the coders are good, but just don't have the time/desire/need to learn LINQ, and then you just look like a uni-tasker who can't adapt. You should have a lot of tools in your toolkit, from basic concepts up to modern API knowledge. This was the time to show deep knowledge of basic concepts.

Did the job posting even mention LINQ as a required or even desired skill?

In general, I agree that interviews are artificial environments, that coders new to a codebase shouldn't take it upon themselves to rewrite working code, add new project dependencies, upgrade platform versions, etc.

But will LINQ really flabbergast a team of professional .NET programmers in 2011? If a team is ignoring a part of their platform that can greatly simplify their code, and it takes a newbie to introduce it, well good on the newbie.

# ? May 27, 2011 18:22

umbrage: Sep 5, 2007; beast mode

gariig posted:

I think using LINQ for data manipulation (reversing a string) is a correct way to answer the question.

It is the correct solution. But I don't think it's the correct way to answer a technical interview question. Don't get me wrong: I heart LINQ. I heart .NET. It is the way I would do it in production code, too. But 99% of the time, you're not supposed to just use Foundation classes/JDK/&c.

It never hurts to mention that there's something that's already available, because that alone can prove you are up to speed with the latest technology/practices. But reversing strings isn't supposed to be a rote knowledge challenge. It's an algorithm runtime and space requirements challenge.

gariig posted:

What if the interviewer asked to see him sort a list of integers? Should he make a class and inherit from CollectionBase since generics are used for "a very specific mindset and fairly specific problem domains" of having typed collections?

I think you ask if you can use Generics. If it's too Magic Bullet for the problem, the interviewer won't allow it, or will say, "That would be smart, but let's try it without that." But again, production solutions != interview solutions.

gariig posted:

After three and a half years (.NET 3.5 was release 11/2007) I think using LINQ to answer a question is valid. The interviewer asking him not to use LINQ is also valid as a follow up.

In a good and just world, yes. And yet, he said

Ithaqua posted:

I had to explain what LINQ was to the interviewer, which led to an explanation of extension methods, which led to him asking me to do it again, the "normal" way.

So clearly some people still haven't gotten the memo.

# ? May 27, 2011 18:23

umbrage: Sep 5, 2007; beast mode

take boat posted:

But will LINQ really flabbergast a team of professional .NET programmers in 2011? If a team is ignoring a part of their platform that can greatly simplify their code, and it takes a newbie to introduce it, well good on the newbie.

Good professional programmers? No. But it flabbergasted the interviewer.

I wasn't wrapped up in something particular about LINQ. LINQ, Rails, Matlab, whatever--there's almost always going to be a shortcut/existing solution. But the useful answer, for an interviewer, for a coding question is almost never going to be

:smug:

"BOOM ONE LINER COUNT IT SUCKA"

My original post was talking to two points:
1) Clever coding fucks with crappier colleagues
1a) Clever is a low bar for some companies.

2) Magic bullet answers aren't generally useful in interviews.

# ? May 27, 2011 18:41

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

umbrage posted:

1a) Clever is a low bar for some companies.

I wouldn't want to work somewhere where clever was a low bar. My goal is to be the second dumbest person on the team.

It still beats today's interview... It was for senior dev/team lead, and they forgot to mention that I'd be the only .NET developer, web-only, and that all of their non-web stuff was written in Powerbuilder and they had no plans to migrate away from it. I only found out when I asked if I was going to meet with the team I was going to be leading, and was told "they really wouldn't have anything to talk to [me] about," because none of them know .NET. :bang:

Also, they use PVCS for source control. I'd never heard of it, and now that I've read about it, I certainly don't want to use it.

New Yorp New Yorp fucked around with this message at 19:23 on May 27, 2011

# ? May 27, 2011 19:12

Smugdog Millionaire: Sep 14, 2002; 8) Blame Icefrog

umbrage posted:

You are eventually going to find a shop where the coders are good, but just don't have the time/desire/need to learn LINQ

I don't think this is true. I don't believe it's possible to be a good C# coder and know nothing about LINQ and not want to.

# ? May 27, 2011 19:46

Paolomania: Apr 26, 2006

Ithaqua posted:

I wouldn't want to work somewhere where clever was a low bar. My goal is to be the second dumbest person on the team.

That is what he means by "clever is a low bar". Clever is just the minimum standard.

# ? May 27, 2011 19:55

Chasiubao: Apr 2, 2010

Smugdog Millionaire posted:

I don't think this is true. I don't believe it's possible to be a good C# coder and know nothing about LINQ and not want to.

If you're writing .Net and you're not stuck in 2.0 land, there's no excuse to not use LINQ. There are performance costs you need to be aware of, but really if you're manipulating collections LINQ is the poo poo.

# ? May 27, 2011 19:56

take boat: Jul 8, 2006; boat: TAKEN

umbrage posted:

Good professional programmers? No. But it flabbergasted the interviewer.

I wasn't wrapped up in something particular about LINQ. LINQ, Rails, Matlab, whatever--there's almost always going to be a shortcut/existing solution. But the useful answer, for an interviewer, for a coding question is almost never going to be

"BOOM ONE LINER COUNT IT SUCKA"

My original post was talking to two points:
1) Clever coding fucks with crappier colleagues
1a) Clever is a low bar for some companies.

2) Magic bullet answers aren't generally useful in interviews.

Sure, I have no deep convictions on what interviews should be like, or what anyone should do in them.

I was addressing your first point, specifically in the case of LINQ. If a software team is coding in modern .NET and is avoiding LINQ because they don't want to learn it, the new guy forcing it on them is very likely a step in the right direction.

Generally, a team must pragmatically decide when to crank out code using current practices, and when to invest in adopting new, more efficient practices. But LINQ is low risk, highly interoperable, and dramatically more expressive. A strong reason is required to not begin adopting it immediately, no matter who suggests it.

# ? May 27, 2011 19:57

umbrage: Sep 5, 2007; beast mode

Ithaqua posted:

I wouldn't want to work somewhere where clever was a low bar. My goal is to be the second dumbest person on the team.

That's funny--I've always said I wanted to be the dumbest person, but you make a good, subtle point.

Paolomania posted:

That is what he means by "clever is a low bar". Clever is just the minimum standard.

I meant "clever" to be as cute as one can get before the rest of the group can't refactor your code reliably. For some places that would be an enormous APL function for calculating the Chinese GDP. For others, it's a recursive call. I've had co-workers change a private constructor back to public because they didn't know how singletons worked.

# ? May 27, 2011 21:15

HondaCivet: Oct 16, 2005; And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know

Not to derail but I always think it's interesting hearing about how devs having about the same amount of experience seem to differ so wildly in real ability and knowledge. What do you think devs like you guys do differently from, say, the entire C# group that doesn't seem to know what LINQ is? Maybe this is a dumb question but I'm just curious about professional development as a dev I guess.

# ? May 27, 2011 21:54

csammis: Aug 26, 2003; Mental Institution

HondaCivet posted:

Not to derail but I always think it's interesting hearing about how devs having about the same amount of experience seem to differ so wildly in real ability and knowledge. What do you think devs like you guys do differently from, say, the entire C# group that doesn't seem to know what LINQ is? Maybe this is a dumb question but I'm just curious about professional development as a dev I guess.

Generally, some people stay up to date with current developments in their frameworks / environments and some people don't. If the particular shop Ithaqua interviewed at requires using .NET 2.0 that's fine and all but the interviewer must have buried his head in the sand to not even know the word LINQ. Someone who is a .NET developer and hasn't at least heard of it has not paid attention to any .NET message boards, blogs, books, code, or documentation since roughly 2007.

# ? May 27, 2011 22:08

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

but csammis some people don't have time outside of their job to keep atop of current trends

# ? May 27, 2011 23:39

Milotic: Mar 4, 2009; 9CL apologist; Slippery Tilde

HondaCivet posted:

Not to derail but I always think it's interesting hearing about how devs having about the same amount of experience seem to differ so wildly in real ability and knowledge. What do you think devs like you guys do differently from, say, the entire C# group that doesn't seem to know what LINQ is? Maybe this is a dumb question but I'm just curious about professional development as a dev I guess.

Read blogs, msdn magazine, proggit, codeproject, codeplex, random articles, internal company seminars, industry events etc. I'm not one of those smug-rear end people who thinks people should code in their free time, but knowing what new stuff is out there is half the battle - you can pick a lot up just by reading some stuff over lunch. I've been for interviews at .NET and Microsoft shops this year where they didn't know what SharePoint was, at all.

Knowing about the new hotness is half the battle. Not believing the hype is a big chunk of the remainder.

# ? May 27, 2011 23:41

csammis: Aug 26, 2003; Mental Institution

tef posted:

but csammis some people don't have time outside of their job to keep atop of current trends

MY FREE TIME :qq:

# ? May 27, 2011 23:46

tef: May 30, 2004; -> some l-system crap ->

csammis posted:

MY FREE TIME

you can't ask for this some people are too entrapped within enterprise

# ? May 27, 2011 23:47

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

umbrage posted:

That's funny--I've always said I wanted to be the dumbest person, but you make a good, subtle point.

And I get your point earlier... if I hadn't already been thoroughly unimpressed, I would've put the standard decrementing for-loop solution down, and then followed it up with "but check out this super duper neato way!"

Oh well. I've already scheduled another phone interview for next Tuesday. I'm pretty depressed by the places I've been interviewing with, but saying "I'm depressed because I don't want to work for these companies that want to pay me six figures (or close to it)!" is such a lovely reason to be depressed.

I really just want to write cool code in an environment that's not soul-crushing. I'd even take a minor pay cut, if it came down to it.

# ? May 28, 2011 08:05

chemosh6969

Jul 3, 2004

code:
cat /dev/null > /etc/professionalism

_{_{I am in fact a massive asswagon.

Do not let me touch computer.}}

Milotic posted:

Read blogs, msdn magazine, proggit, codeproject, codeplex, random articles, internal company seminars, industry events etc. I'm not one of those smug-rear end people who thinks people should code in their free time, but knowing what new stuff is out there is half the battle - you can pick a lot up just by reading some stuff over lunch. I've been for interviews at .NET and Microsoft shops this year where they didn't know what SharePoint was, at all.

Knowing about the new hotness is half the battle. Not believing the hype is a big chunk of the remainder.

Where I'm at now, I've been criticized, in an offhand comment during a group meeting for doing things like testing out new poo poo. Out of all the "tech" people in my area, I'm the only one with a CS degree, with an emphasis on programming. We have 2 other old women that either had a computer job decades ago and hasn't tried to keep up with anything and the other one has a degree from something like a decade ago and is on par with an office worker that has good experience with things like excel. Keyboards and mice can't be plugged in by them, I usually fill that role. I also hear complaints like "this new larger monitor is making my computer run slow".

The other tech guy also doesn't have a CS degree, programs in notepad, and doesn't understand why things like frameworks, should be used to increase productivity. The biggest headache I'm anticipating is that they're going to want us using the same tools but since nobody understands technology, I'm really worried they're going to go with his way. I'm the "crazy" guy because I do things like have test instances on machines in my area, or wanting to set things up in advance in case something is wrong. For some reason, they just can't grasp the logic that setting things up early doesn't mean it takes more time to do. Other than issues like that, I still like working there and get great benefits, so I survive.

This thread has motivated me to setup an account at sourceforge and start working on the small projects I've wanted to do. At least I'll now have some code to show, if I need it. I've always had some code I can send them but it's never been online. It does show an employer good things about you when you can display the ability to finish a project you've worked on. I'm sure we've all been to sites and seen poo poo that someone's uploaded with a note that it's just the beginning but he's going to add more stuff, which never happens. Who'd want to hire that guy over someone that can see stuff through to the end?

As for interviews, the worst one was for a job I was trying to get through a temp agency. Since it was for a job dealing with computers, I had to do their tech test. It was one of those deals where it locked you down to one possible solution to figure out the problems. The worst question was some networking one where you had to have knows the command and all the arguments off the top of your head. It was something really easy that could be done in the GUI but that didn't matter, so I got it wrong. There were also the excel ones where you had to know the shortcut because you couldn't use the toolbar.

During normal interviews, I always explain in general terms what I know. I've worked with a few different languages but am proficient in a couple but at the same time, I understand the basics, so jumping to a new language isn't that painful. If I don't know something, I'll say that and if I only know part of it, I'll explain just that and then describe the parts I do know. I also am not the type of person that's going to memorize everything a language can do but I do know how to look up the stuff I'm trying to do that I don't know off the top of my head. Being able to look poo poo up successfully is a skill I've seen many co-workers lack. I've witnessed many scenes where the computer throws up and error and they'll just ignore it and then keep trying to do what's broken. A few times they've heard there's an error, did zero troubleshooting and then decided the only solution is to restart the servers. Imagine the surprise when the server wasn't the issue.

The most enjoyable interview was with a .NET shop. I'd done some in my free time and also at school but it wasn't anything I used regularly. To get to the second interview, they had me go home and make an address book type app using SQL Server and VB.NET. Never messed with SQL Server that much and got hung up a little bit on what I had to do to make the db portable and still work with the app but I got it done. I thought it was a good way to see if someone really knew the stuff, or at least had a basic knowledge, like I did. I could also see how it'd be easy to cheat but I'm assuming we would have gone over the code during the second interview and if I didn't know anything and had just downloaded it from somewhere, it'd be pretty obvious.

The place was one of the better places that had openings in my area. Everyplace that had openings for programmers were only paying around $12/hr and they all literally wanted you to be an independent contractor, so they could get out of paying any benefits.

A temp agency sent me to one place to do tech support was at some dude's house that supported PCs at hospitals and clinics. With 4 years tech support experience and my BS, I managed to score a whopping $8/hr. Since 2 of my years was working at a place that dealt with HIPPA, I left at lunch because that place was a disaster waiting to happen. If you can get into his garage, you've just scored yourself computers with all sorts of patient data :downs:

# ? May 29, 2011 03:04

Luminous: May 19, 2004; ~~Girls~~
Games
~~Gains~~

HondaCivet posted:

Not to derail but I always think it's interesting hearing about how devs having about the same amount of experience seem to differ so wildly in real ability and knowledge. What do you think devs like you guys do differently from, say, the entire C# group that doesn't seem to know what LINQ is? Maybe this is a dumb question but I'm just curious about professional development as a dev I guess.

Being enthused about programming or software engineering doesn't necessarily mean a desire to keep with the latest trends, nor does it directly translate to competency - though, having a bigger "toolbelt" than the next guy is going to make you more appealing to a company, not to mention if you do lose your job it can limit the opportunities you are able to pursue.

# ? May 29, 2011 15:42

pokeyman: Nov 26, 2006; That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Luminous posted:

Being enthused about programming or software engineering doesn't necessarily mean a desire to keep with the latest trends, nor does it directly translate to competency - though, having a bigger "toolbelt" than the next guy is going to make you more appealing to a company, not to mention if you do lose your job it can limit the opportunities you are able to pursue.

I have written two lines of C# and zero lines of all other .net languages in my life and I'm aware that there's something in that world called "LINQ" that I should be aware of if I ever write a third.

I'm with you on the "latest trends" point but there's an expected level of awareness of the generally available tools for your language of choice. I'd argue that extends to languages as a whole too, but that's not what we were talking about in is case.

# ? May 29, 2011 21:08

His Neutralness: Oct 1, 2007; Live Free or Don't

I just graduated and I made the mistake of going to college in a city that has somewhere in there range of 2-3 software companies, and also I don't really want to live here regardless. Are many companies, besides extremely large one's like Google, willing to fly people out for interviews? I can't imagine many would for entry level positions. Would I be better off just moving to somewhere with jobs and then looking?

# ? May 31, 2011 07:27

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

His Neutralness posted:

I just graduated and I made the mistake of going to college in a city that has somewhere in there range of 2-3 software companies, and also I don't really want to live here regardless. Are many companies, besides extremely large one's like Google, willing to fly people out for interviews? I can't imagine many would for entry level positions. Would I be better off just moving to somewhere with jobs and then looking?

One option: get a shitbag recruiter to schedule your interviews and get them done in one trip.

# ? May 31, 2011 07:30

opposable thumbs.db: Jan 7, 2008; It's hard to say that it's wrong that my life revolves around my dog when she is cuter and more interesting than me; Pillbug

A small question and search for advice here: I'm a sophomore at a college in northern California, figuring out my summer plans. Right now I've got two potential summer jobs, one of which would be interning at a small (<10 people) startup website, would pay for $4500-$5000 for the whole summer, and the other would be something completely unrelated to CS, for half the summer and would pay $4000, plus room and board for that time. If I took the first one, I'd have to pay probably $2500-$3000 of that amount in food and housing.

Any thoughts on whether it would be better to take the non-CS job, and try to spend the rest of the summer working on personal projects, or take the internship for experience? I don't really have any idea of which would be better for my prospects long-term.

# ? May 31, 2011 09:56

shrughes: Oct 11, 2008; (call/cc call/cc)

opposable thumbs.db posted:

Any thoughts on whether it would be better to take the non-CS job, and try to spend the rest of the summer working on personal projects, or take the internship for experience? I don't really have any idea of which would be better for my prospects long-term.

What's the non-CS job? It depends.

# ? May 31, 2011 10:18

opposable thumbs.db: Jan 7, 2008; It's hard to say that it's wrong that my life revolves around my dog when she is cuter and more interesting than me; Pillbug

shrughes posted:

What's the non-CS job? It depends.

Yeah, probably should have clarified that. It would be a counselor/academic helper/RA-type job at EPGY, a Stanford summer academic camp. The kids would be in either middle or high school, and I'd act as an RA as well as someone that could help them out in the class they were taking.

# ? May 31, 2011 10:25

HondaCivet: Oct 16, 2005; And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know

opposable thumbs.db posted:

A small question and search for advice here: I'm a sophomore at a college in northern California, figuring out my summer plans. Right now I've got two potential summer jobs, one of which would be interning at a small (<10 people) startup website, would pay for $4500-$5000 for the whole summer, and the other would be something completely unrelated to CS, for half the summer and would pay $4000, plus room and board for that time. If I took the first one, I'd have to pay probably $2500-$3000 of that amount in food and housing.

Any thoughts on whether it would be better to take the non-CS job, and try to spend the rest of the summer working on personal projects, or take the internship for experience? I don't really have any idea of which would be better for my prospects long-term.

Have you tried talking the CS internship into letting you intern half the summer? Might be worth a shot.

Otherwise, I think it depends on how much you think you could get out of the CS internship. Is the work something that interests you and will challenge you? Will it help you become a better programmer or whatever you want to do? Are the people you are working for talented and well-connected? If it's a quality place to work then you really should take it, it'll really boost your shot at getting a good job out of college at the expense of a couple grand right now. If not, then it's mostly just a job, and the other job wins because it pays more and takes less time.

But, in general, the summers you have while in college are so incredibly precious because of internships, do not loving waste them or you will regret it when you enter the job market because I'm sure it won't be much better than it is right now.

HondaCivet fucked around with this message at 15:49 on May 31, 2011

# ? May 31, 2011 15:47

Bag of Carpets: Dec 20, 2010

I've heard many people talk about certain programming jobs as "soul-crushing" or that you need to "sell your soul" in order to do coding for some companies / organizations. Why do I hear this so frequently? Those who have experience, what would you say makes the difference between a job that you're passionate about versus one that you hate? "This is only OK but I'm making a 6-figure salary" is something that I've also heard - is anyone really enjoying what they're doing?

# ? May 31, 2011 16:41

Milotic: Mar 4, 2009; 9CL apologist; Slippery Tilde

Bag of Carpets posted:

I've heard many people talk about certain programming jobs as "soul-crushing" or that you need to "sell your soul" in order to do coding for some companies / organizations. Why do I hear this so frequently?

Because it's true. Additionally, people tend to remember either the people who really love their jobs (or the perks they talk about), or the people who really hate their jobs.

Job enjoyment is affected by many things, but here are some key factors:

1) Not working for cocks or working for an organisation where you don't really care if your output matters.
2) Not working in an environment you don't enjoy. Some people like peace and quiet with few interruptions, other people like the amount of problems to be thrown at them to resemble the first part of a double-bill Dr Who season finale. You probably won't know which you prefer until you've done both.
3) Not working with tools, languages or frameworks you utterly detest. I've yet to meet a SharePoint developer who actually loves SharePoint development. Most only see themselves doing it for another few years.
4) Future prospects in a job. For most people, nothing kills your motivation like pay-freezes or not being able to acquire new skills or progress further.

quote:

Those who have experience, what would you say makes the difference between a job that you're passionate about versus one that you hate? "This is only OK but I'm making a 6-figure salary" is something that I've also heard - is anyone really enjoying what they're doing?

It very much depends on the person. I'll talk about my experiences, and I expect others will chime in with theirs - see what currently resonates most with you. It'll be vaguely wordy, apologies.

I graduated out of university and went to work for a prestigious bank as a developer in their IT graduate scheme. I was initially put in their "Central Services" department, writing Reporting Services reports for their IT helpdesk system and doing analysis for their HR systems and I loving hated it. The work was dull, not at all related to the core purpose of the organisation, and the systems were pieces of poo poo.

I requested a transfer to do "embedded IT" for the Economics Department. I loving loved that poo poo - I'd been reading the FT on and off since I was 12. My work has had an impact on the business - I can point at stuff published online to the general public and say "My code made that possible". And also internal stuff. It could get stressful as hell sometimes, but because there wasn't much bureacracy, I could fix the problem quickly and that was rewarding as hell.

For a period of 3 and a half years I did a mixture of business analysis, hardcore programming on a large project, RAD work, support work. Around the last year, the Bank had made the decision to split the development team into "project teams" and "support and minor change teams", promising that developers would be swapped around. This of course didn't happen - project developers would move from project to project, and dumping unfinished and buggy work onto the support team since they didn't have to support it. I was unfortunate enough to be on the support team because I was very good at it. That's fine - I like support in moderation and in the right environment. Unfortunately the team support team started getting very jobsworthy. I would have disagreements with my manager since I would pop around to look at user's issues without waiting for a support call for time/mission critical stuff. Filling out the change request forms for a simple one-line config change would take longer than the change itself. It was frankly making us look like a gaggle of fools.

The last straw was someone being brought onto the team as a technical architect for the economic department IT systems. He didn't want the job, and I was annoyed I hadn't been offered it nor had it been advertised. I asked for a transfer off, and the SharePoint team were looking for a tech lead so I took it since I had a chunk of experience with it.

SharePoint is an interesting platform, with many challenges and a huge amount of stuff to learn. Technically it was interesting to work with and a great, young, really dynamic team. However, it was mostly used for that same central service type stuff I hated. Blogs, discussions and whatnot. Sure it enabled the business, but it didn't have a particular economic bent to it. It's a business agnostic platform. So it was a mixed bag.

Unfortunately, the Bank announced a 2 year pay freeze. Whilst non-IT people could get around it by being promoted, IT couldn't. This was annoying as hell as I'd just been promoted. Since inflation is kinda high in my country right now, and I want a house and because I like being rewarded for my efforts I waited for meagre bonus and quit.

I now work for a much smaller firm on some pretty cool stuff. I'll miss the people, but I'm glad I left. It was absurdly bureaucratic towards the end. They'd instigated a lot of processes in the vain hope that it would mitigate the impact of people who just plain sucked. Financial systems should be locked down as all gently caress. But not raddy analytical systems, that's just dumb.

Summary - I'm a cowboy who likes Doctor Who.

Milotic fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 31, 2011

# ? May 31, 2011 23:41

HondaCivet: Oct 16, 2005; And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know

Thanks for sharing, I really hope others contribute.

Speaking of good and bad jobs, as a new grad, I'm figuring I should apply to any entry-level job I see but are there certain types of dev jobs that should really be avoided/can really put you on the wrong path?

# ? Jun 1, 2011 01:02

New Yorp New Yorp: Jul 18, 2003; Only in Kenya.; Pillbug

Bag of Carpets posted:

is anyone really enjoying what they're doing?

Absolutely. The software I'm working on is fairly cutting-edge and interesting, there's a lot of flexibility for creativity in our new development, and I have a fantastic team of ridiculously smart people who know what the gently caress is up. I'd love my job forever and ever except for one thing:

The upper management of the company doesn't get it. They fight us every step of the way, from "your tech screening is too hard, it's driving away qualified candidates!" to "Agile development doesn't work! We can't force the team to work on more projects at once than they can reasonably complete in a two-week period!" to "the sales team SHOULD be able to sell features that don't exist and then act indignant when told that the feature isn't designed, estimated, or scheduled for development yet, and to stop lying to customers"

I saw our CTO fighting the fight every single day, until he finally quit in order to maintain his mental health. Now the entire team is jumping ship, one person at a time.

If management was actually reasonable, I'd have no problem sticking around, even though the positions I've been interviewing for pay 15-20% more.

# ? Jun 1, 2011 02:09

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

His Neutralness posted:

I just graduated and I made the mistake of going to college in a city that has somewhere in there range of 2-3 software companies, and also I don't really want to live here regardless. Are many companies, besides extremely large one's like Google, willing to fly people out for interviews? I can't imagine many would for entry level positions. Would I be better off just moving to somewhere with jobs and then looking?

There are a lot of big software companies (or other big companies that have lots of devs). Off the top of my head, you got MS, Google, Apple, Amazon, Adobe, IBM, and Intel. Plus the big bank/finance places like Goldman Sachs, BoA, JPMorgan Chase, etc. Unless you were implying that you don't want to work for a big company?

# ? Jun 1, 2011 02:17

shrike82: Jun 11, 2005

Bag of Carpets posted:

I've heard many people talk about certain programming jobs as "soul-crushing" or that you need to "sell your soul" in order to do coding for some companies / organizations. Why do I hear this so frequently? Those who have experience, what would you say makes the difference between a job that you're passionate about versus one that you hate? "This is only OK but I'm making a 6-figure salary" is something that I've also heard - is anyone really enjoying what they're doing?

2 general things I've noticed since I've started working :-

1) Developers working in support of a business (e.g. developer at a bank/big business) tend to be less happy than developers writing code that is sold (e.g. developer at a software company). You can be a poo poo-hot coder writing great code but if it doesn't actually bring in money (as opposed to at best reducing costs), you're going to be treated as a cost-center.

2) Perks and a "fun" working environment might mean something when you're fresh out of college but not so much when you're later in your career. At the end of the day, money matters. I don't give a poo poo about catered lunches, in-hour masseuses if I don't get paid proportionally to the money I bring to the company. I've seen a lot of friends working at flagship tech companies such as Google leave to join start-ups for a chance at equity. People are generally happier when they are rewarded based on what they bring to the table.

# ? Jun 1, 2011 02:27

HondaCivet: Oct 16, 2005; And then it falls
And then I fall
And then I know

His Neutralness posted:

I just graduated and I made the mistake of going to college in a city that has somewhere in there range of 2-3 software companies, and also I don't really want to live here regardless. Are many companies, besides extremely large one's like Google, willing to fly people out for interviews? I can't imagine many would for entry level positions. Would I be better off just moving to somewhere with jobs and then looking?

From what I've been reading, in this economy, companies generally aren't going to bend over backwards for you unless you have a lot of experience/skills that they need. Unless you are really something special, why would they fly you in when they've likely got tens, maybe hundreds of local grads with about the same experience as you who can show up for an interview next week for free? It sucks but it makes sense. If I were you I'd just save up 6-12 months' living expenses and move first.

# ? Jun 1, 2011 02:54

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

HondaCivet posted:

From what I've been reading, in this economy, companies generally aren't going to bend over backwards for you unless you have a lot of experience/skills that they need. Unless you are really something special, why would they fly you in when they've likely got tens, maybe hundreds of local grads with about the same experience as you who can show up for an interview next week for free? It sucks but it makes sense. If I were you I'd just save up 6-12 months' living expenses and move first.

Another thing you could try is getting a big company to fly you out for an interview, and then interview with other companies while you're there. I did it (albeit not really on purpose) and it turned out great (although the company I interviewed on the side was also large).

# ? Jun 1, 2011 03:09

His Neutralness: Oct 1, 2007; Live Free or Don't

Cicero posted:

There are a lot of big software companies (or other big companies that have lots of devs). Off the top of my head, you got MS, Google, Apple, Amazon, Adobe, IBM, and Intel. Plus the big bank/finance places like Goldman Sachs, BoA, JPMorgan Chase, etc. Unless you were implying that you don't want to work for a big company?

I'm not opposed to it, I just figured that they're very competitive and I shouldn't depend on getting a job at MS or Google.

# ? Jun 1, 2011 03:53

chemosh6969

Jul 3, 2004

code:
cat /dev/null > /etc/professionalism

_{_{I am in fact a massive asswagon.

Do not let me touch computer.}}

opposable thumbs.db posted:

Yeah, probably should have clarified that. It would be a counselor/academic helper/RA-type job at EPGY, a Stanford summer academic camp. The kids would be in either middle or high school, and I'd act as an RA as well as someone that could help them out in the class they were taking.

Also consider that sometimes you have to get your foot in the door with a company that you want to work for, even if it's not the job you really want. It's a lot easier to get hired for positions at a company when you're working there, than when you aren't. I'd go with the place that you think would be a better future.

Unless you work there and are a piece of crap.

The place I'm at now started out with a 1 year contract that they ended up not being able to turn permanent. I applied for an opening there after I left, which I didn't get. During the call where they said I didn't get it, they basically made a position for me and offered that to me instead.

A few months later, there was a round of layoffs and someone with seniority (unions), bumped me out of my position. Then I was a temp for a few months during which I applied for another opening there. Same deal as before, I didn't get that either. What I didn't know was that someone else was getting promoted, in a way. They gave her some new work, took away a big part of her previous job and made another position for me with her old stuff.

Going through all that with a family sucks but at least I must be doing something right if they keep bringing me back.

# ? Jun 1, 2011 04:06

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

His Neutralness posted:

I'm not opposed to it, I just figured that they're very competitive and I shouldn't depend on getting a job at MS or Google.

They try to be as competitive as possible, but the bottom line is that there are a LOT of big companies that are either pure tech, or view tech as a core component (finance), and all of them want to hire "the best of the best" when it comes to new grads. Well, there simply aren't very many of those, and half of them are going to grad school anyway. So those big companies have to hire who they can get. Which is us.

# ? Jun 2, 2011 06:54

ancient lobster: Mar 5, 2008

I just interviewed with a tech startup and am guessing that I should send a thank you email.

The main guy who interviewed me seemed to have his bullshit detector turned way up and didn't seem to have much patience for canned or unnecessary selling from a candidate.

I am appreciative for having the chance to go in and learn about the company and professional environment, the interview generally went well, and I'm interested in the position, but how can I communicate this without being sycophantic? Or should I try to do this at all?

# ? Jun 8, 2011 00:11

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 28, 2024 20:29

subx: Jan 12, 2003; If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

ancient lobster posted:

I just interviewed with a tech startup and am guessing that I should send a thank you email.

The main guy who interviewed me seemed to have his bullshit detector turned way up and didn't seem to have much patience for canned or unnecessary selling from a candidate.

I am appreciative for having the chance to go in and learn about the company and professional environment, the interview generally went well, and I'm interested in the position, but how can I communicate this without being sycophantic? Or should I try to do this at all?

Say basically what you just said really. If you are actually interested and think you have the skills for the job, that's what you say (obviously elaborate a bit).

And yes you should, showing interest and sending a followup is never a bad thing to do.

# ? Jun 8, 2011 03:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > The Cavern of COBOL > Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: Fake it 'til you make it

«‹›728 »