Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Comstar: Apr 20, 2007; Are you happy now?

dj_clawson posted:

2 years from now, when a comprehensive report shows that actually 3 people were just shot in the leg.

Why has it seemed to suddenly become standard practice for Israel to shoot unarmed protesters in the leg, and then this is passed off as nothing of consequence?

# ? Jun 5, 2011 20:40

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 01:20

IRQ: Sep 9, 2001; SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

dj_clawson posted:

Prediction: this is called a massacre by the entire world until 2 years from now, when a comprehensive report shows that actually 3 people were just shot in the leg.

Because it's ok if they only get a little bit shot?

# ? Jun 5, 2011 20:47

a japanese pop icon: Mar 3, 2010; by Fistgrrl

dj_clawson posted:

Palestinians also protest within PA controlled areas all the time - sometimes with guns and suicide vests on display - and Israel does nothing about it unless it turns violent on its own.

The part of Israel that is not the side that wants their own state and Israel dead is actually a stable, Western democracy with a free media and civil rights for its citizens and doesn't treat its women like poo poo. There are examples in Israel of when that's not the case, but they're exceptions to the general rule, just like people in America who are arrested thanks to the Patriot Act for stupid things they shouldn't be arrested for. People overlook things like that when they're cheering on Arab countries who are rushing to replace their oppressive regimes with honestly, some regimes that look only slightly less oppressive to their populations.

Haha you have no idea what life for Palestinians is like do you? Israel is no better than white apartheid southafricans.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 20:51

Lustful Man Hugs: Jul 18, 2010

a japanese pop icon posted:

Haha you have no idea what life for Palestinians is like do you? Israel is no better than white apartheid southafricans.

I think most people here would agree that while Israel is a pretty reasonable government towards its own, it is brutally oppressive to the Palestinians within its sphere of power. I personally think Apartheid is a very good analogy, though.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 20:53

Sh3kel: Dec 26, 2003; Hard Currency, Thick Skull

ChaosSamusX posted:

I think most people here would agree that while Israel is a pretty reasonable government towards its own, it is brutally oppressive to the Palestinians within its sphere of power. I personally think Apartheid is a very good analogy, though.

I doubt apartheid "security" concerns were motivated by a violent mob of radical extremists funded and armed by Iran and in full control of a strip of land from which they fired rockets at civilian settlements. Even good analogies have their limits.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 21:25

DonBalle: Dec 10, 2004; raaaaaaaaaaar...

can you people please keep Israel/Palestine out of this thread?

# ? Jun 5, 2011 21:27

Diqnol: May 10, 2010

IRQ posted:

Because it's ok if they only get a little bit shot?

It's certainly a step down from shooting people to death.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 21:33

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

dj_clawson posted:

Palestinians also protest within PA controlled areas all the time - sometimes with guns and suicide vests on display - and Israel does nothing about it unless it turns violent on its own.

Are you kidding me? This is probably the most obvious lie you've ever spouted on these forums, and I've read a few. If nothing else there's hundreds of hours of video evidence to the contrary easily accessible on the Internet, such at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyIiajWL_6U

Or the weeklies in Bi'lin, etc, etc. Most likely something similar happened today in the Golans.

*edit* VVVVVV Nelson Mandela was removed from the US's terrorist list in june 2009, so it's ok now.

Svartvit fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Jun 5, 2011

# ? Jun 5, 2011 21:33

Young Freud: Nov 26, 2006

Sh3kel posted:

I doubt apartheid "security" concerns were motivated by a violent mob of radical extremists funded and armed by Iran and in full control of a strip of land from which they fired rockets at civilian settlements. Even good analogies have their limits.

Umkhonto we Sizwe. South Africa had to deal with the military wing of the African National Congress for the last 30 years of apartheid. They were backed by the communists in neighboring Mozambique, Namibia, and Angola, and fought in the Angolan Civil War alongside Cuba soldiers. I believe the MK even did suicide bombings at some point.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 22:11

Sneakums: Nov 27, 2007; MAXIMUM.SNEAK.

dj_clawson posted:

People overlook things like that when they're cheering on Arab countries who are rushing to replace their oppressive regimes with honestly, some regimes that look only slightly less oppressive to their populations.

What new Arab regimes are you talking about?

# ? Jun 5, 2011 22:22

automatic: Nov 3, 2010; by Y Kant Ozma Post

I'm assuming he is talking about Egypt. If he is, he is totally right.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 22:24

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

Less dumb rhetoric, more Libya discussion.

20 mins ago:

quote:

A powerful but distant blast was felt in the centre of Tripoli at around 9:00pm (1900 GMT) on Sunday, followed by stronger explosions a few minutes later, said an AFP correspondent who was unable to immediately determine the targets.

I wonder what they are hitting.

quote:

NATO warplanes pounded Tripoli on Sunday and US Defence Secretary Robert Gates said it was only a matter of time before aides to embattled Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi abandon him.

Russia also voiced concerns that the alliance's military operation is sliding towards a land campaign.

quote:

The notorious hacker collective Anonymous has taken its campaign to the next level by releasing names and passwords for email accounts belonging to Middle East government officials:

WilYaWil#Anonymous hacks & releases #Egypt & other ME gov email login details http://pastebin.com/n98jDJMq [via @Rey__] #jan25

Anonymous is mostly a joke, but I'm impressed. Kudos.

quote:

Libya's rebel leaders must plan in detail how they would run the country if Muammar Gaddafi stood down and should learn from Iraq after the 2003 invasion, British Foreign Secretary William Hague said on Sunday.

quote:

Tunisian authorities endured the grim task on Sunday of attempting to recover the bodies of more than 200 migrants after their boat capsized, coastguard said.

Bad weather has hampered previous search attempts for the victims of Thursday's accident when a boat carrying Libyan migrants bound for the Italian island of Lampedusa hit a sandbank off Tunisia's southern coast.

"We have recovered 26 bodies, there are no more in the wreck," said lieutenant-colonel Tahar Landoulsi, head of the Sfax coastguard. "Given the sea and the currents, some bodies could be 20 kilometres" from the site of the accident off the Kerkennah Isles, he said.

Rescue teams saved 577 passengers when the boat capsized but between 200 and 270 are presumed drowned. Those rescued were taken to a refugee camp at Choucha near the Tunisian-Libyan border.

quote:

545 soldiers loyal to Gaddafi, who were killed in battles with rebel fighters, have been buried in Misrata according to Muslim rites since the start of the conflict.

quote:

US Defence Secretary Robert Gates said on Sunday that Muammar Gaddafi's aides will inevitably abandon the Libyan strongman and "throw him under the bus."

Asked about the Libyan conflict in a meeting with US troops in southern Afghanistan, Gates said Gaddafi's associates were turning against him and his hold on power looked increasingly tenuous.

quote:

British jets hit a military barracks in the Libyan capital early Sunday, intensifying NATO pressure on Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi nearly four months into an uprising to end his erratic 42-year rule.

The airstrikes on the barracks - repeated targets of NATO strikes - followed the Western alliance's first use of attack helicopters Saturday.

By intensifying attacks from the air and using helicopters to target government forces who melt into the civilian population for cover, NATO is providing a major boost to Libyan rebel forces who have seized much of the country's east and toeholds in the west.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 22:36

papasyhotcakes: Oct 18, 2008

BTW I just read a probably false rumor from twitter ( http://www.twitlonger.com/show/au1i0g ) that states that there are plans to use mustard gas against the rebels. While I dont tend to place much importante on hearsay it also made me wonder: Could it be possible that, as Ghadaffi grows more and more desperate, he resorts to this kind of weapons in the future? I want to believe he would take into account that the second those missiles strike the ground all the credibility he has left would evaporate, and his compound would probably be bombed flat by the next day, but Im not sure somebody, who wanted to purge whole cities and encourages the use of rape as a weapon of fear, would be deterred by it

# ? Jun 5, 2011 23:14

dj_clawson: Jan 12, 2004; We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

Svartvit posted:

Are you kidding me? This is probably the most obvious lie you've ever spouted on these forums, and I've read a few. If nothing else there's hundreds of hours of video evidence to the contrary easily accessible on the Internet, such at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyIiajWL_6U

Or the weeklies in Bi'lin, etc, etc. Most likely something similar happened today in the Golans.

OK, not to derail this thread, but in response: This is obviously not what I'm talking about. If there's an area Israel control, has Israeli people living there, and they do not want hostile Palestinians (armed or unarmed) around, they have every right to say, "No, you cannot come in here" and post guards on the border, and if the warnings are completely ignored, the guards can prevent people from entering. The posted video, for example, was trying to enter a nearby settlement full of settlers who are sick of being attacked. If you want to argue, "Israel shouldn't be in the West Bank anyway! It's Palestinian land!" I would say to you, "I agree that there should be a Palestinian state, it should probably be in the West Bank, and Israel should not be building settlements there, but the fact of the matter is that because of crummy leadership on both sides, Israel does control it and does protect the citizens who live there."

The right to protest has limits. Like here in the US, you can protest the existence of Israel, but at appropriate times, with the police watching you like during any other protest. You can't break into my apartment complex and march outside my door. There's public and private space.

Or, worse, if you were a Canadian who felt Maine was part of Canada, and you had a history of violence against the US, and you wanted to march through the border and wander around Maine as protest, the US would say, "gently caress you, you're not coming in" and post armed guards at the border.

Also: shouting at people's feet is better at center mass. You are trying to get them to disperse, which is hard if someone of them are willing to be martyrs to their cause.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 23:19

dj_clawson: Jan 12, 2004; We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

papasyhotcakes posted:

BTW I just read a probably false rumor from twitter ( http://www.twitlonger.com/show/au1i0g ) that states that there are plans to use mustard gas against the rebels. While I dont tend to place much importante on hearsay it also made me wonder: Could it be possible that, as Ghadaffi grows more and more desperate, he resorts to this kind of weapons in the future? I want to believe he would take into account that the second those missiles strike the ground all the credibility he has left would evaporate, and his compound would probably be bombed flat by the next day, but Im not sure somebody, who wanted to purge whole cities and encourages the use of rape as a weapon of fear, would be deterred by it

My final hours of Gaddaffi involve him in his burned-out compound, throwing every available rock and falling plaster at the oncoming British troops.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 23:21

Kenning: Jan 11, 2009; I really want to post goatse. Instead I only have these🍄.

Paradox Personified posted:

Can you school me on the alcohol/ al-kohol/kohl thing? I tried to trace it but

Please tell me that can actually be a slightly useful tactic for rebels to avoid incoming.. anything? It could confuse incoming small-arms fire at least, yes?

Check it out.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 23:32

Paradox Personified: Mar 15, 2010; SoroScrew

Kenning posted:

Check it out.

Beaten, but it's always the obvious sites you forget if you haven't done field work in a while, isn't it...

# ? Jun 5, 2011 23:49

Casimir Radon: Aug 2, 2008

dj_clawson posted:

My final hours of Gaddaffi involve him in his burned-out compound, throwing every available rock and falling plaster at the oncoming British troops.

I think it's going to look something like this.

# ? Jun 5, 2011 23:57

dj_clawson: Jan 12, 2004; We are all sinners in the eyes of these popsicle sticks.

Casimir Radon posted:

I think it's going to look something like this.

I think I could live with that ending.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 00:26

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

A story from todays Guardian:

quote:

Nato strike force in Libya enjoys quick success with apache gunships
This story is pool copy filed by Kim Sengupta on board HMS Ocean off the Libyan coast

At 1.04am on Saturday, the pilot of an Apache helicopter-gunship hidden in the inky black sky, pressed the trigger of the 30mm cannon, bringing down concentrated fire on a pick-up truck and ripping it open. Ammunition stored inside set off secondary explosions, spreading the swirling flames. Three men who had been trying to open fire with the vehicle's anti-aircraft gun, mounted at the back of the truck, were now terrified, scrambling to get away.

One of the two Apaches followed the fleeing men for a few minutes before wheeling away. The mission commander, in charge of the aircraft, had no doubt this was the right decision.

"They [the Libyan troops] were running away and posed no immediate threat � there was no justification in shooting them. I did not think it would have helped in what we are trying to achieve here. We had made a point, dealt with what was threatening us � the gun on the truck � destroyed weapons. It's simply a matter of patience, using one's intellect and also one of morality."

The Apache WAH 64Ds, launched from HMS Ocean, the UK's sole remaining aircraft carrier, had faced limited ground-fire and scattered Kalashnikov rounds during their first mission in Libya, indicating that Muammar Gaddafi regime's air defences had been damaged by the sustained bombing campaign.

But, two months after Nato's intervention, there is stalemate on the ground, and the introduction of the attack helicopters, and their French equivalents, is designed to change that situation. But the deployment is also controversial, leading to inevitable charges of "mission creep", and claims that this may lead to "boots on the ground".

There were further Apache strikes in the early hours of Sunday morning, a sign that the tempo of missions will continue at a high rate. Two Apaches, with a Sea King 7 helicopter providing intelligence, destroyed a multi-barrelled rocket launcher mounted on a truck and placed in an abandoned building.

Western air strikes had also destroyed much of Gaddafi's armour. But his forces had adopted new tactics, hiding their artillery in built-up areas, using flat-bed trucks � "technicals", taking their name from similar vehicles used in Somalia � to carry out attacks on opposition forces and set up mobile checkpoints.

The Apache strikes, aimed at one such checkpoint on the road between Ras Lanuf and Brega, was, it was claimed, to end harassment of civilians by Gaddafi forces, but also to encourage rebel fighters in the east, who had shown an aversion to combat, to move forward.

The first mission was launched at 00.20 on Sunday morning. Twenty-five minutes later, they were over their first target, a military radar, used to monitor sea and air traffic. This was taken out by four laser-guided Hellfire missiles, after previous attempts at bombing by jets from thousands of feet high had failed.

The Apaches then moved on to their next target, further east. Speaking just after returning from the attack, the mission commander, an officer with the Army Air Corps based at Wattisham in Suffolk, described what happened.

"Unlike the previous target, here we saw movement on the ground. I have been very clear with my crew that we had to be absolutely certain that we were dealing with armed troops and not local people. We watched for about five minutes � they could hear us, but they could not see us. We started getting some small-arms fire, but it was pretty random and didn't reach us. But then we could see them ranging the gun at the back of the truck towards us and at that point we opened fire.

"Did some people die? Yes probably. But all I can say is that we were facing a direct threat at the time and our task was to destroy such weapons. The rules of engagement are pretty clear on this. But what I was not going to do was to take out anyone who did not pose a direct threat.

"With an Apache we can be very precise about our targeting. The radar we targeted was on the coast. It was stopping us from enforcing the no-fly zone and coming in to help the population. It was something difficult to bomb from up high, but with the Apache we can go high or low, vary our heights, vary our angles. It is very, very versatile."

Like the rest of the Apache crew on HMS Ocean, the officer had served in Afghanistan. There, the ferocious reputation of the Apache, ironically, had at times led to skirmishes ending. The Taliban tend not to hang around when they hear the aircraft they call "the mosquito" � so called because you can hear it just before it stings.

The pilot continued: "It seems to me the main difference is that, while in Afghanistan we were going out over the wire in support of British troops, in Libya we are acting in support of the people against the forces of a despot."

The pilot, who said he was a "modest student of politics", added: "In a wider context, it seems to me that what has happened in the 'Arab Spring' is pretty amazing and exciting. You can't suppress ideas being spread any more because of the new forms of communication, the information age. But I think it will take at least a couple of years before we see what it means for us, and much more importantly, the people of Libya and this region."

And the NATO press briefing for June 5th Operations

quote:

Sorties conducted 05 JUNE: 139
Strike sorties conducted 05 JUNE: 58

In Tripoli: 1 Command & Control Facility.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 2 Command & Control Facilities, 1 Surface-To-Air Missile Storage Facility, 1 Ground Forces Compound, 1 Air Defence Forces Compound, 4 Surface-To-Air Missile Launchers, 1 Radar.
In the vicinity of Brega: 3 Military Vehicles.
In the vicinity of Misurata: 1 Armoured Fighting Vehicle.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 09:37

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live Blogs June 6th
LibyaFeb17
Feb17.info
AJE
Guardian

Tripoli

quote:

ChangeInLibya tweets: �A full day of NATO strikes on Tripoli & Gaddafi bldngs. Explosions started at 10am in the morning and still haven�t stopped.

quote:

Reuters
Journalists in Tripoli were taken to see a baby who Gaddafi�s aides said was a victim of a NATO strike. While in the hospital, a staff member passed the journalists a handwritten note that the child was injured in a car accident. Gaddafi�s government says more than 700 civilians have been killed and more than 4,000 wounded by NATO air strikes. However, the media team has not shown foreign reporters based in Tripoli any evidence of large numbers of civilian casualties.

Diplomacy

quote:

Sky News Russia is to send an envoy to meet the Libyan opposition in Benghazi.

Syria

quote:

Syria now claims 23 people were killed when Israeli troops opened fire yesterday on pro-Palestinian protesters in the Golan Heights.

Israel claims this figure is exaggerated, according to the Jerusalem Post. It also reports that hundreds of protesters remain in the area.

The Israeli Defence Force accused Syria of orchestrating the protest to distract attention from internal political unrest. In a Twitter update it said:

quote:
Syrian border was quiet for decades but only now w/internal unrest in Syria is there an attempt to draw attention to the border

It also claimed that 10 of those who died were killed when firebombs thrown by protesters set off Israeli landmines. There has been no independent verification of this claim.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 09:51

Zedsdeadbaby: Jun 14, 2008; You have been called out, in the ways of old.

Israeli landmines. That says it all really. They are supposed to be banned under international law...

# ? Jun 6, 2011 10:44

Nuclear Spoon: Aug 18, 2010

Zedsdeadbaby posted:

Israeli landmines. That says it all really. They are supposed to be banned under international law...

They're not a signatory of the Ottawa Treaty.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 10:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Based off what I've been reading about Misrata it seems that the rebels are still holding their positions at the request of NATO, and receiving reinforcements and equipment from Benghazi. The Misrata commander is also claiming that the Zliten rebels are being provided with weapons and telecommunications equipment, and are attacking Gaddafi troops at night.

There were some reports yesterday that rebels had entered Brega, but there's been no solid confirmation.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 11:10

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

Some footage of the Golan mow-down taken from the Israeli occupied side. Also featuring an interview with Mark "Goebbles" Regev, finally being talked back by someone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-lJkOzhZnk

*edited for correctness

# ? Jun 6, 2011 11:30

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Reuters has the first confirmation from a non-rebel source that Yafran is under rebel control:

quote:

YAFRAN, Libya, June 6 (Reuters) - Libyan rebels on Monday entered the town of Yafran, southwest of the capital, which was previously controlled by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, a Reuters photographer in the town said.

"The rebels say that they have taken the town," said the photographer Youssef Boudlal. "We are inside the town ... There is no sign of any Gaddafi forces."

"I can see the rebel flags ... We have seen posters and photos of Gaddafi that have been destroyed," he said.

Good to see it confirmed, and this also confirms that rebel forces can move freely between it and other captured towns in the area. That would mean that pretty much the entire Nafusa mountain region is under rebel control, and now they can move supplies over the border from Tunisia to the entire region.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 11:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Bit from the Guardian about Yemen:

quote:

There's is renewed diplomatic hope that President Saleh will finally stand down as president of Yemen, writes our Middle East editor Ian Black.

quote:
A call by five European countries to maintain the ceasefire in Yemen reflects new hope that President Ali Abdullah Saleh, being treated in a Saudi hospital for injuries sustained in an attack on his palace last Friday, can now be persuaded finally to stand down by signing the deal he had reneged on several times in recent weeks.

Western diplomats say the Gulf accord offered Saleh a way out "with dignity." It would grant him immunity from prosecution and arrangements for his financial security � a far more attractive proposition than the fate of Libya's Muammar Gaddafi, facing Nato bombardment and an investigation for crimes against humanity by the international criminal court.

If he agreed Saleh's departure would be followed by elections within 60 days.

Yemen's ceasefire does seems to be holding for now, but working out what happens next is especially complex: there is a significant "Arab spring" component to the Yemeni crisis - the protesters camped out in Tagheer Square or Change Square ( Sana'a's homage to Tahrir Square in Cairo).

But it is important to remember that Saleh's departure was brought about by an old-fashioned and very Yemeni expedient of shelling - not a method that features in in the playbook of the Facebook and Twitter generation.

The EU and US are desperately hoping the Saudis will now do the right thing and make sure Saleh does not return from Riyadh to Sana'a. With the Saudi court now in Jeddah for the sweltering summer months, the Yemeni leader may not have the high-level access he is used to.

In one scenario, his hosts might well be persuaded that he should be left incommunicado to stop him coordinating a fightback or return with his sons and nephews who control key elements of the security forces back home.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 12:05

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

Interesting side note on the Palestinian charge the other day. The land mines set off by the molotov cocktails the protesters threw, were on the Syrian side of the border. Presumably, therefore, they were Syrian. Is Syria a signatory to the anti-landmines treaty?

# ? Jun 6, 2011 12:59

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Guardian has a piece of the Libyan governments pathetic propaganda efforts with Western journalists in Tripoli:

quote:

Gaddafi regime fails to fool media over injured child
The Libyan government's attempts to show how Nato bombing is harming civilians backfired when a hospital worker revealed that a seven-month-old "air strike victim" had been injured in a car crash.

Foreign journalists in Tripoli were taken by bus to a hospital on Sunday night to see the seven-month-old girl, Nasib, who lay unconscious. Media handlers claimed she had been hurt when a bomb exploded in a field near her house on the eastern edge of the capital a few hours earlier.

But a member of the medical staff slipped a note written in English on hospital stationery to a reporter, which was seen by Reuters, that said: "This is a case of road traffic accident. This is the truth."

Journalists' suspicions had already been raised during an earlier visit to the bombsite in the suburb of Tajura where the girl was said to have been injured.

Talking to journalists, Mohamed Elounsi, the son of the owner of the field, described how a black and white dog and a dozen or so chickens and pigeons had been killed in the evening strike, but said nobody had been injured.

Elounsi said: "I lost my birds, one dog and my cows nearly died." Shockwaves from the blast destroyed a room in one house and shattered numerous windows, he said. "My message to Obama is, 'Why do you send this [bomb] to my father's farm.'"

Residents gathered around the crater, measuring two metres by one metre, chanting pro-Muammar Gaddafi slogans. Initially, none of them mentioned any civilian casualties and there seemed little real anger. It was only shortly before the bus departed that one neighbour said his four-year-daughter suffered cuts when a glass door shattered.

At the hospital, Gaddafi's aides directed the media to Nasib, whose bandaged foot was hooked up to medical equipment. A man introduced as her uncle said she had been injured in the Tajura missile strike.

A second man, presented as a neighbour and a member of the health ministry, ranted against Nato and shouted "God, Muammar, Libya, and that's all".

This man, who gave his name as Emad, was mysteriously present once more when journalists were taken to another suburb at 1am on Monday. This time, a "bomb" had landed in a back garden at about midnight "while the family were having lunch", according to a man presented as a spokesman for the family.

The two metre-long bomb had fallen from the sky, he said, implying it came from a Nato jet. It had not exploded, however, and appeared less like an example of cutting-edge warfare than a remnant of the cold war. Closer inspection showed there was Russian writing on the bomb.

That fact was put to Emad, who had since admitted he was a member of Gaddafi's media team, while still insisting he was also a neighbour of the seven-month-old girl. Emad's story of the midnight bomb suddenly changed: Nato must have struck a nearby military compound, triggering an explosion that caused this missile � a piece of Gaddafi's own arsenal � to shoot off into a nearby garden.

Late on Monday morning, government representatives had not offered any official comment on the Russian bomb or on the seven-month girl and her link � or not � to the curious incident on the farm.

This was no real surprise because Gaddafi's regime appears to have given up on putting across any formal message to the foreign media in Tripoli. Since last Wednesday, the government has been almost completely silent, holding only a single press conference on the war's effect on Libyan business.

The visits to see damage caused by Nato bombs, which the government says has killed more than 700 civilians while offering little evidence to support the claim, also dried up until the sudden burst of activity of Sunday.

The first trip was to the St Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, where Father Timothaus Bishara Adly explained that several nights of Nato strikes last week blew out many of the church windows. There was no structural damage, but a large military warehouse next door, the target of the attack, had been completely destroyed. However, government minders would not allow any of the journalists to get a close view. "That is not our goal," said one.

And as the cherry on the top of this story, a Tweet from moments ago by another foreign journalists in Libya:

quote:

Still broadcasting, watching it now RT @mpoppel: AFP: NATO-led warplanes hit Libyan state broadcaster: information ministry official

# ? Jun 6, 2011 13:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Interesting if true, but there's reports via Twitter that Nafusa rebels have reached a place called Surman, 80km north of Yefren, and about 15-20km west of Zawiyah. Zawiyiah is only 40-50km west of Tripoli.
Surman is also on the coast, which means if it was captured supplies and troops from Benghazi could land there, which would another disaster in a long line of disasters for Gaddafi.

The outcome of all these depends on a few factors, mainly how many rebels have reached there, if there's a local rebel group to join them, and if whether or not they attempt to hold it.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 13:58

Zedsdeadbaby: Jun 14, 2008; You have been called out, in the ways of old.

Wait, am I reading that right; Gadaffi literally used a bomb on his own people for propaganda purposes?

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:01

ukle: Nov 28, 2005

Brown Moses posted:

Interesting if true, but there's reports via Twitter that Nafusa rebels have reached a place called Surman, 80km north of Yefren, and about 15-20km west of Zawiyah. Zawiyiah is only 40-50km west of Tripoli.
Surman is also on the coast, which means if it was captured supplies and troops from Benghazi could land there, which would another disaster in a long line of disasters for Gaddafi.

The outcome of all these depends on a few factors, mainly how many rebels have reached there, if there's a local rebel group to join them, and if whether or not they attempt to hold it.

Its all Urban / Semi Urban between Surman and Zawiyah, basically its almost one city that spreads along the coast; as such I don't think any fighting will be easy, assuming that is Gaddafi has any forces of note there.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:05

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Zedsdeadbaby posted:

Wait, am I reading that right; Gadaffi literally used a bomb on his own people for propaganda purposes?

It sounds more like they dug a hole, threw an old bomb in it, and claimed it was a NATO dud. There was a story like that from early on in the war, where they were taken to a farm, shown a strangly dug out looking crater with random bit of metal in it, and were told it was NATO missile strike.

Another bit of news:

quote:

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's envoy Mikhail Margelov will meet Libyan rebel leaders in Benghazi on Tuesday but will not travel to Tripoli, an official said.

Medvedev said at the G8 summit last month that he would be sending an envoy to Libya, as Moscow seeks to present itself as a potential mediator between the rebels and Gaddafi's regime.

Bit of a snub to the Gaddafi regime.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jun 6, 2011

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:05

Pureauthor: Jul 8, 2010; ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

I was under the impression that authoritarian regimes were supposed to be good at this whole propaganda thing. Why is everything they do so... clumsy?

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:12

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

ukle posted:

Its all Urban / Semi Urban between Surman and Zawiyah, basically its almost one city that spreads along the coast; as such I don't think any fighting will be easy, assuming that is Gaddafi has any forces of note there.

If there's a local rebel group who have just been waiting for support, then the Nafusa rebels could provide them with the equipment they've been receiving across the Tunisian border, which includes night vision gear, sniper rifles, and MILAN anti-tank missiles. It'll make the area an absolute nightmare for Gaddafi troops to fight in, they won't be able to use the cover of night to attack the rebels, and there armoured vehicles will become death traps. It's also another front Gaddafi's troops have to engage the rebels in, and at the same time the rebels could secure everything to the west as well, especially as there's already been reports of seperate rebel activity in that area.
I'll keep an eye out for more information related to it coming in.

Few more updates, looks like State TV is off the air after all:

quote:

AFP NATO aircraft struck buildings belonging to Libyan state television on Monday.

quote:

calperryAJ tweeted: �BREAKING: #Libyan state television is officially off the air. #NATOhas clearly hit what it was aiming at.�

quote:

Cal Perry reports from Ajdabiya that state TV went off air in the east of the country, and is now going up and down.

Some other news from the East:

quote:

Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi�s forces fired rockets into the rebel-held east Libyan town of Ajdabiyah on Monday and clashes broke out on the main road further west, two rebel military sources said.

�Four Grad rockets hit Ajdabiyah today,� rebel spokesman Ahmed Bani said. It was not immediately clear if there were casualties.

A second rebel military source said there was fighting at a checkpoint near the front line 18 kilometres (11.18 miles) outside Ajdabiyah.

Gaddafi�s troops and the eastern rebels have been locked in stalemate for weeks, with neither side able to hold territory on a stretch of road between Ajdabiyah and the Gaddafi-held oil town of Brega further west

It's nothing too exciting, small groups of Gaddafi troops have been trying to get around the rebel frontlines, and sometimes they suceed, but all they manage to do is damage some property and get NATO on their tail.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jun 6, 2011

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:21

Mr. Sunshine: May 15, 2008; This is a scrunt that has been in space too long and become a Lunt (Long Scrunt); Fun Shoe

Brown Moses posted:

The Guardian has a piece of the Libyan governments pathetic propaganda efforts with Western journalists in Tripoli:

quote:
Hilarious incompetence

I don't understand why the hell they keep doing this. For gently caress's sake, NATO is bombing Libya with planes, gunships and predator drones, there has to be real collaterals to show the foreign journalists. Hell, the regime could just release numbers of civilian casualties and refuse to show foreigners anything. Instead they pull these stunts, which will cause any claim of civilian deaths at NATO hands to look like bullshit.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:24

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Pureauthor posted:

I was under the impression that authoritarian regimes were supposed to be good at this whole propaganda thing. Why is everything they do so... clumsy?

Because now instead of broadcasting propaganda on a state controlled TV station they're trying to do it on major international networks. Your average member of Congress or MP probably has a better funded propaganda department than the Libyan government and CNN and BBC are used to finding the story in the bullshit.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:25

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Just looking back at the story about the big group of religious leaders apparently killed in Brega by NATO. A journalist trapped in the Rixos hotel managed to disprove that thanks to co-ordinates provided by the regime and a Skype conversation. The regime is so used to controlling every aspect of the media they just can't manage it when so much attention is focused on their claims.

AJE is still amazed by the capture of Yefren:

quote:

It's been a surprising morning, because what we have had are two static military fronts, one to the south of me and then one to the west of me - just east of Tripoli ... We understand that the fighting on that second front has been very heavy, there has been very little movement in the town of Misurata.

But what we saw this morning was rebels rolling into a town just 100 miles from the capital, really on the doorstep of Gaddafi and all they found were Gaddafi positions that had been abandoned. There is video, photographs coming out of that town of Gaddafi forces seemingly just having disappeared to this rebel advance.

Now it's unclear right now what propelled this breakthrough, was it perhaps NATO attack helicopters, was it perhaps the Warfala tribe that just a few days ago sided with the eastern rebel army, what propelled this to happen we still dont know. But what we do know is that the clock certainly seems to be ticking on Gaddafi. This is really the first challenge to the city of Tripoli that we have seen in about four months.

With this rebel advance, we now have NATO not only extending its first 90 day mission but continuing to throw its weight behind the rebels.. NATO is actually looking past Gaddafi and that is what we heard from the NATO secretary general today.

It's interesting the Warfalla tribe is mentioned, as there's apparently a lot of them around Bani Walid, where there's been reports of fighting between locals and Gaddafi troops. Bani Walid is located halfway between Misrata and the Nafusa Mountains, and if they side with the rebels then Tripoli is entirely cut off from the rest of the country, which means no more reinforcements and no more resupplies.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 14:40

neamp: Jun 24, 2003

Brown Moses posted:

Interesting if true, but there's reports via Twitter that Nafusa rebels have reached a place called Surman, 80km north of Yefren, and about 15-20km west of Zawiyah. Zawiyiah is only 40-50km west of Tripoli.
Surman is also on the coast, which means if it was captured supplies and troops from Benghazi could land there, which would another disaster in a long line of disasters for Gaddafi.

The outcome of all these depends on a few factors, mainly how many rebels have reached there, if there's a local rebel group to join them, and if whether or not they attempt to hold it.

No, they captured Surman junction, that is the point where the road to Surman branches off at the foot of the Nafusa mountains. It's just a few kilometers from Bir Ayyad and Yefren, they are trying to secure the supply route they have opened up there. Gaddafi troops unfortunately still control the alternative more direct (and easier to defend) route to Yefren and Qalaa on top of the plateau as far as I know.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 15:00

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 01:20

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Ah poo poo, I thought that was an amazingly fast advance.

# ? Jun 6, 2011 15:03

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