Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

It's really just gone crazy in Syria today, as you can probably tell from the amount of stuff I'm posting:

quote:

quote:
Martin Chulov reports from the Turkish-Syrian border on the refugee situation there in this video.

Ian Traynor writes from Brussels, where the US defence secretary, Robert Gates, has accused Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, of slaughtering innocent citizens. Gates said Assad's conduct had put his legitimacy to rule Syria in question, seeming to go further than his colleague Hillary Clinton, who has said that Assad has "nearly" forfeited his legitimacy.
[quote] Of the revolutionary upheavals in the Middle East, Gates said: "There clearly is a dividing line in the Middle East between the rulers who are prepared to slaughter their own people to stay in power and those who are prepared to transition."

Washington had to be clear about supporting the latter. "The slaughter of innocent lives in Syria should be a problem and concern for everybody," Gates said. "And whether Assad still has the legitimacy to govern in his own country after this kind of a slaughter I think is a question everybody has to consider."

quote:

On indications of Iranian involvement in Syria, Martin Chulov mentioned that the Foreign Office was sticking to its claims. The UK's charg� d'affaires in Tehran was summoned to the Iranian ministry of foreign affairs to back up the claim yesterday. In a statement, the Foreign Office said:

quote:
We remain extremely concerned by the Iranian government's repression of its own people and its support for violent elements in the region. We have seen credible information suggesting Iran is helping Syria with the suppression of protests there, including through the provision of expertise and equipment. We had already raised this issue with the Iranian charg� in London.

quote:

The Local Coordination Committees of Syria (LCC) says there's been reports of gunfire from a military barrack in in the Raml Falastini neighbourhood in Latakia during attempts by protesters to tear a picture of Bashar al-Assad.

LCC also says security forces and armed thugs are breaking into homes in Baniyasin the Haret al-Bahr neighbourhood. They have beaten a number of home owners and arrested about 10 people, the LCC says

quote:

Syrian security forces have shot dead at least two protesters when they fired at a rally in the Qaboun district of Damascus, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights says.

"It seems that it was a big demonstration, given the direct use of live ammunition," the group's director Rami Abdelrahaman told Reuters, adding that the information came from witnesses.

Other activists said security forces fired automatic rifles, some from rooftops, at the demonstration, which demanded the removal of President Bashar al-Assad.

There's also some reports from Libya that Misrata rebels have managed to make some progress into Zliten, despite heavy fighting.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 15:05

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:15

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Some updates:
Bahrain

quote:

In Bahrain, Sheikh Isa Qassim, the country's most senior Shia cleric, has said there is no chance of talks with the country's Sunni rulers while security forces maintain their clampdown on protesters.

"We cannot negotiate in such conditions," Sheikh Qassim told worshippers in a mostly Shia area outside the capital, Manama. "The brutal force and abusive language being deployed against us can never destroy our will and desire to achieve our rights and dignity."

Libya

quote:

A Libyan student leader loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi has been arrested in Italy, accused of planning to assassinate the Libyan rebels' leading international representative and lead an attack on Libya's embassy in Rome, John Hooper reports.

quote:

Al-Jazeera's Tony Birtley is in Al-Dafniya, the area near Misrata that Gaddafi's forces have been attacking today. Birtley said:

quote:
After nine intensive hours, the bombardments were non-stop � Body after body after casualty were being brought in [to a medical area] � It's been a very, very heavy day on the front line here � this is a key position.

quote:

The Associated Press says 22 people have been killed by Gaddafi's forces on the outskirts of Misrata, Libya, also attributing this to a doctor at Hekmah hospital.

quote:

The Libyan Youth Movement, an opposition group, is tweeting that Gaddafi's forces are surrounding hospitals in Zlitan, preventing access for the injured. The group describes Zlitan as "a critical town between Misrata and Tripoli".

Syria

quote:

Damascus-based human rights lawyer Razan Zeitouneh says there have been reports of 19 deaths so far today in the crackdown on the protests.

She has the names of all 19, but the list does not include those killed in the north-west province of Idlib - scene of the largest crackdown, including the siege of Jisr al-Shughour.

"Many people got killed in Idlib but we didn't get their names yet, because the military is there and it is very difficult to get the details," she said in a Skype interview uploaded to Audioboo.

Five of those who died were killed in the coastal town Latakia, she said. "In Homs there was a huge protest and heavy gunfire. But we didn't get information about injured [people] there. In Deir Azzour it is the biggest protest."

She confirmed that eyewitnesses in Jisr al-Shughour have talked of Iranian involvement in the crackdown against the town. "According to eyewitnesses that is how it started. When the protesters caught six persons who were not Syrians, they were Iranians, and they were shooting with security [forces]."

She said the army had not yet fired on the town today, but had attacked villages around Jisr al-Shughour.

The Syria AJE Blog also has a variety of videos.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 16:28

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Sometimes I can't help but think that repressive regimes are simply a force of nature. They don't really think or plan beyond the single goal of staying in power at any costs, and with rare exception they simply will not go until they are threatened with overwhelming force. Even then, some still fight to the death.

Maybe they're afraid of the fate that awaits them once they are finally forced to answer for their crimes, and all this bloodshed is a sort of procrastination, delaying the inevitable even as it makes their inevitable demise worse.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 16:55

Zedsdeadbaby: Jun 14, 2008; You have been called out, in the ways of old.

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

Isn't this the way it always goes? Just like Libya, we get protesters who are getting sick of their conditions, then the government has a crackdown where they kill a lot of people but try to lie their way out of it, then poo poo gets really real and eventually it gets to the point where the government has to make concessions or is usurped?

You would think Syria would have figured this out by now.

They did. They figured it out in Hama, 29 years ago.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 18:53

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

quote:

We remain extremely concerned by the Iranian government's repression of its own people and its support for violent elements in the region. We have seen credible information suggesting Iran is helping Syria with the suppression of protests there, including through the provision of expertise and equipment. We had already raised this issue with the Iranian charg� in London.

You know what? gently caress this dude. Not an eyebrow was lifted when Bahrain's protest was violently put down by Saudi forces.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 18:53

Wafflecopper: Nov 27, 2004; I am a mouth, and I must scream

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

Isn't this the way it always goes? Just like Libya, we get protesters who are getting sick of their conditions, then the government has a crackdown where they kill a lot of people but try to lie their way out of it, then poo poo gets really real and eventually it gets to the point where the government has to make concessions or is usurped?

You would think Syria would have figured this out by now.

Then again, the Libyan rebels would have been hosed if the west hadn't stepped in, and with the west still tied up there, and with Russia not even willing to allow a UN condemnation of the Syrian regime let alone intervention, Assad & co might even manage to stay in power.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 19:16

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

If you are looking for Twitter accounts to follow apparently a number of journalists in the Rixos hotel sat down together and learnt how to use Twitter today.

There's claims the Misrata rebels are about 8-10km from the centre of Zliten, and have teamed up with the Zliten rebels to fight Gaddafi's forces. They claim to have killed at least 50 Gaddafi soldiers, multiple troops carriers, and one tank.

In the last hours it's claimed by ChangeInLibya that NATO aircraft are attacking Gaddafi targets in the West, Southwest and Southeast of Misrata.

There's also claims that Nafusa rebels have reached the outskirts of Sorman, near Zawiyah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorman

# ? Jun 10, 2011 19:30

The X-man cometh: Nov 1, 2009

Now that Turkey and Erdogan seem to have gotten fed up with Assad's bullshit, does that give any potential rebellion in Syria a boost?

I'd imagine that if an actual rebellion with defined liberated zones appears (like Benghazi in Libya), NATO or a similar group could step in to protect it.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 20:03

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Turkey doesn't appear to have gotten that fed up. They're accepting refugees, but are they calling for Assad to go or are they sticking with the 'reform' schtick?

I don't think it would boost a rebellion's chances, but it would isolate Syria a lot more than it would like internationally. It would hurt the regime in the long-term a lot if Turkey abandons them, however.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 20:13

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Oh my bad, I see what you are referring to. Definitely a change in Turkish policy, though my previous comments still stand.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 20:34

Zedsdeadbaby: Jun 14, 2008; You have been called out, in the ways of old.

Isn't there a general election coming up in Turkey soon? The apparent change of heart could be a cynical attempt to win votes, which Assad may know of, and thus ignore Erdogan's public criticisms. They have phone calls regularly after all.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 21:07

Toast Museum: Dec 3, 2005; 30% Iron Chef

I'm not up to speed on Turkish politics. What is Turkey getting out of its relationship with Syria?

# ? Jun 10, 2011 21:45

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

Toast Museum posted:

I'm not up to speed on Turkish politics. What is Turkey getting out of its relationship with Syria?

Turkey has a "zero problems with the neighbours" policy. Not hard to understand considering Turkey borders Iran, Iraq and Syria.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 21:48

the floor is baklava: May 4, 2003; SHAME

THE HORSES rear end posted:

Sometimes I can't help but think that repressive regimes are simply a force of nature. They don't really think or plan beyond the single goal of staying in power at any costs, and with rare exception they simply will not go until they are threatened with overwhelming force. Even then, some still fight to the death.

Maybe they're afraid of the fate that awaits them once they are finally forced to answer for their crimes, and all this bloodshed is a sort of procrastination, delaying the inevitable even as it makes their inevitable demise worse.

I'd say you've pretty much hit the nail on the head, the pattern is pervasive among dictators and in fact varies little. Especially in the most historically autocratic and isolated regimes.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 21:53

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Zedsdeadbaby posted:

Isn't there a general election coming up in Turkey soon? The apparent change of heart could be a cynical attempt to win votes, which Assad may know of, and thus ignore Erdogan's public criticisms. They have phone calls regularly after all.

The election is on Sunday, so unless something pretty major happens it won't have much effect on the election.

There's still reports of fighting between Misrata and Zliten, and NATO has only made a few strikes. Hopefully they'll actually get involved soon.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jun 10, 2011

# ? Jun 10, 2011 21:58

Zedsdeadbaby: Jun 14, 2008; You have been called out, in the ways of old.

Svartvit posted:

Turkey has a "zero problems with the neighbours" policy. Not hard to understand considering Turkey borders Iran, Iraq and Syria.

Yeah, that's pretty much the unluckiest choice of neighbours any nation could have. Turkey likes to keep its head down and stay quiet on the regional and international stage.

It's true that the election is very close as Brown Moses said. I'm just wondering about Erdogan's unusually public criticism of Syria. Perhaps he is actually taken aback by the sheer brutality of it all, even with the neighbours' histories.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 22:13

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I think it's based more on international politics than domestic. Turkey likes to stay close to its neighbors even though they're relatively ostracized, but it also wants good standing in the international community. With BRIC being solidly opposed to any sort of UN Syria resolution, there's probably been some pressure on Turkey to come out and support it.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 22:15

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I posted an article about it a few days ago, basically watching all these regimes Turkey has built a good relationship with murderer 100's of people, and those regimes ignoring Turkey when they try to stop it is starting to get on Turkey's tits. Turkey has huge amounts of money invested in these countries, has spent a massive amount of effort building diplomatic ties and acting as a go between for the West and these countries, and it's all been made worthless thanks to the Arab Spring and crazy dictators.

The Hurriyet has a very useful page detailing Turkey's relationships with countries involved in the Arab Spring.

Tony Birtley of Al Jazeera has been Tweeting about the fighting today:

quote:

really heavy day at Dafniya. rockets and tank rounds non stop. many casualties. one round fell near us. saw several people die.
rebels held onto dafniya. they are incredibly brave. never ran. stood their ground and then fought back.
went with them through no man's land. we heard a gaddafi tank but it ran. rebels fired missiles. At sunset they were still going fwd. i left

# ? Jun 10, 2011 22:25

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Gaddafi's troops beating an old man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWBYtdeLd5k
There's reports that the roads to Zliten have now been closed, seems like the Battle of Zliten is beginning.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 22:41

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Bit more from Tony Birtley

quote:

i have never met so many friendly, smiling fighters who are having all kinds of ordnance dropped on them. they laugh in the face of death.

we heard rebels having radio exchanges with gaddafi's men. they worship the colonel, say he is like a prophet. they won't give up easily

# ? Jun 10, 2011 22:47

MeinPanzer: Dec 20, 2004; anyone who reads Cinema Discusso for anything more than slackjawed trolling will see the shittiness in my posts

Xandu posted:

I think it's based more on international politics than domestic. Turkey likes to stay close to its neighbors even though they're relatively ostracized, but it also wants good standing in the international community. With BRIC being solidly opposed to any sort of UN Syria resolution, there's probably been some pressure on Turkey to come out and support it.

Plus it's relatively safe for Turkey to do so, considering that a Libya-style intervention is out of of the question in Syria. I have a feeling that Erdogan wants to walk a delicate line whereby Turkey accepts refugees without question while trying to keep it relatively quiet to benefit Syria (Turkish police have been pressuring refugees not to talk to journalists) but on the other hand condemns Assad to look good in the eyes of their Western allies without risking anything in doing so (remember that Turkey was adamantly against intervention in Libya until it was pretty much a given, and even then did not pledge any assistance).

# ? Jun 10, 2011 22:59

Svartvit: Jun 18, 2005; al-Qabila samaa Bahth

There's not really any significant difference in how Turkey approaches the Spring compared to how the western countries does it. It's a game of coming out looking as good as possible while losing as little investment as possible.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 23:09

farraday: Jan 10, 2007; Lower those eyebrows, young man. And the other one.

Svartvit posted:

There's not really any significant difference in how Turkey approaches the Spring compared to how the western countries does it. It's a game of coming out looking as good as possible while losing as little investment as possible.

I think Turkey has a little more skin in the game regarding Islamic democratization than most Western countries. If we ignore the Arab part for a second, the perceived incompatibility of Islam and Democracy or western liberalism in some circles plays a big part in Turkeys own semi-estrangement from Europe. The value of these movements, ignoring the internal Turkish cultural politics, is higher than in establishing good relations with a new government, or other geo-political advantages of that sort.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 23:18

cgeq: Jun 5, 2004

THE HORSES rear end posted:

Maybe they're afraid of the fate that awaits them once they are finally forced to answer for their crimes, and all this bloodshed is a sort of procrastination, delaying the inevitable even as it makes their inevitable demise worse.

It's probably hard to see yourself going back to the life of a normal person, completely powerless and at the mercy of your local politicians, police, and boss. I mean, could you seriously see yourself having to deal with someone at the local bank branch to get a secured credit card because you have no credit history in whatever host country was pressured into accepting you.

Even if your host country puts you up in some nice digs, would you really trust them? These guys would rather die than live looking over their shoulder even more than they already do. Right now their entire worlds revolve around them and that would be a hard feeling to lose. Just look at the lengths through which presidential nominees and celebrities go through just to stay in the news. It's the same mindset.

# ? Jun 10, 2011 23:52

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Some last updates before I go to bed:

quote:

01:23 Misratah News The Dafniyah area is no longer being bombarded with Grad rockets.

01:08 Misratah News The revolutionaries of Misratah were able to communicate with Gaddafi�s forces using radio equipment yesterday (Friday). Gaddafi�s forces repeated that they considered Gaddafi a Prophet and that they would not give up easily and would destroy the rats.

00:50 Almanara Media Sources have reported to Almanara that Gaddafi�s forces attacked the homes of the family of Haddood in Bani Walid.

The same sources also confirmed that an exchange of gunfire occurred between the Haddood family and Gaddafi�s forces who were unable to capture any of the family�s members.

00:43 Misratah News The bombardment of Dafniyah has lessened at the current time, but clashes between the revolutionaries and Gaddafi�s forces are continuous.

00:32 Reuters Gaddafi�s forces bombard Ghadamis with rockets for the first time since the beginning of the revolution

00:30 Misratah News Gaddafi�s forces heavily bombarded the area of Dafniyah in Misratah yesterday, the result of which was 31 martyrs and over 100 injured.

00:27 Al Jazeera Gaddafi�s forces attack the city of Zintan with 40 Grad rockets

# ? Jun 11, 2011 00:04

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

goo.gl/k5Hq5

Pretty cool pictures from the Nafusa area in Libya on facebook.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 01:49

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

Bombardment of Ghadames? If true, that would be an important event; the town is a border post with Algeria and close to a crucial crossroads between the Nafusa mtns and the south.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 04:36

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Live Blogs June 11th
LibyaFeb17.com
Feb17.info
AJE Libya
AJE Yemen
AJE Syria
Libya

quote:

A letter purported to be from Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi suggests to the US Congress that he is ready to negotiate a ceasefire in the three-month-old conflict.

Officials said they were examining the authenticity of the letter, according to ABC News and Politico newspaper. The US State Department said it had heard about the letter, but not seen it.

In the three-page letter, Gaddafi said he was grateful for the "thoughtful discussion of the issues." "We are ready to sit at the table with appropriate internal interlocutors led by the United States. Let's stop the destruction and begin the negotiations to find a peaceful solution for Libya," Gaddafi allegedly wrote.

"Our nation must not be colonized again by Europeans. Our Country must not be divided again," the letter states. Gaddafi also asked for humanitarian assistance and "accommodation between the parties within Libya that are at odds."
The letter was dated June 9, 2011 and is signed by "Muammar Gaddafi, Commander of the Great Revolution."

quote:

Clashes near the Libyan rebel-held city of Misurata have killed 31 people, according to a doctor at Hikma Hospital.

The doctor said that Muammar Gaddafi�s forces used tanks, artillery and incendiary rockets in the bombardment of a town 30km from Misurata, where at least 61 people were wounded on Friday morning.

Al Jazeera�s Tony Birtley, reporting from Al Dafniya near Misurata, said it has been �a bloody day in terms of casualties�.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AkUwxGa984

quote:

Three boats carrying 667 African refugees from Libya including many women and children arrived on the Italian island of Lampedusa on Saturday and more are on the way, a border guard spokesman said.

"We have seen four more boats arriving, two of which are in trouble. We are preparing a rescue operation," said the spokesman, Davide Miserendino.

"The bad weather in the past few days has created very strong concentrations" of refugees wanting to flee Libya. They are all sub-Saharans arriving from Libya," he added.

Lampedusa has seen thousands of arrivals of migrants and refugees mainly from Tunisia and Libya this year amid unrest in north Africa. Most of the arrivals from Libya are migrant workers from sub-Saharan Africa reports AFP.

Footage of yesterdays fighting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jH71j9NSC4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DgJhPsBeNs

quote:

Events of Thursday, June 9th (= situation at June lOth, 00:00 hrs)

� Since Misrata's siege was broken in mid May, strong regime forces were amassed in Zliten in order to
block an advance on Tripoli According to recent reports, this includes 2'iOO to 7'000 troops from the elite
Khamis Brigade , the p aramilitary Revolutionary Guards ('Lejan Thawreeya') , State Security and
mercenaries from sub-saharan countries According to a captured regime soldier, these forces are
commanded by Khamis Qaddafi himself who is allegedly in Zliten right now.

� According to one report, regime forces were standing by to enter Zliten with (red, black and green)
revolutionary flags in order to lure the local freedom fighters out and capture them
� After the Asr Prayer in the afternoon, a man coming out of the Aw|ad Ahmeidi mosque of Zliten was
murdered by regime forces Clashes then developed out of ensuing protests by the local populace in the
Baza neighbourhood Apparently, the clashes spread to other parts of Zliten and developed into regular
fighting Fierce fighting between regime forces and local revolutionaries was in particular reported on
Thursday evening from Zliten's eastern outskirt of Suq Al Thulatha ('Tuesday Market_)
� As the regime forces seemingly started to lose control of the city, they reportedly began shelling
residential areas, including with rockets and mortars Later reports also mentioned snipers positioned on
high buildings within the city

� Shelling and/or fighting was reported for many parts of Zliten Mentioned neighbourhoods are Suq Al
Thualtha , Bin S ufya, Baza, Sid| Burgaya (ne ar the sea) , Buyuwt aal Hm aadi , Uwl ad Ham adj , Abu Rgeeb a
Road and Masjid Ham adj

� According to some reports, (presumably infiltrated?) freedom fighters from Misrata were joining the
fighting in Zliten Other re ports rather said that free darn fighters from Zliten th at h ad fled to Misrat a a wee k
ago returne d to Zliten with 4x4 vehicles , weapons and ammunition to join the fighting

� In the hours around midnight , the Nation al Liberation Army from Misrat a j Dine d the f ighting by advancing
from Dafniya and tried to destroy some of the re gime f orces' rocket launchers that were shelling Zliten

� Early casualty reports cited 1 killed freedom fighter and 5 killed regime soldiers for Zliten Later on , the
death toll among free darn f ighte rs and (presumably) civili ans mounted to 25 and to 'many more' on the
side of regime forces

� According to its own report, NATO conducted the following key airstikes around Misrata on Thursday 2
rocket-launchers, 1 truck-mounted gun, 4 tanks, 2 armoured fighting vehicles, 1 flatbed truck, 2 command
& control nodes and 2 checkpoints
� According to U .K. Major Gener al Nick Po pe , HMS Oce an off Misrat ah launc he d British Ap ache helicopters
that destroyed a regime communic ations inst all ation and multi pie rocket I auncher . This is the first reported
use of he lico pters at the Misrat a front however , no inform ation on the exact pl ace and time of day of
these strikes as well as on the eventual connection of these strikes to the fighting in and around Zliten is
available

Comment:

Apparently, the heavy handed suppression of Zliten's population by the occuping regime forces has finally
resulted in a general uprising in that city The regime fears to have lost the control and reacts with utmost
brutality , shelling its own civilian population, just like they did in Misrata months ago. This in turn forces the
National Liberation Army of Misrata to intervene and to step over the 'red line' defined by NATO, advancing
past Dafniya towards Zliten
Of course, the events of the last couple of days with a heavy counter-offensive against Misrata has proved
the uselessness of the said 'red lines' as it prevented the Misratan freedom fighters from advancing but did
not prevent the regime from attacking In particular, NATO should explain while it has requested not to cross
the 'red lines' for the sake of preventing friendly fire in a close quarter combat situation , but at the same time
did NOT use the possibility to stri ke the regime f orces across that line in the 3 wee ks of its existence

Main Sources:

NATO, @UKMilOps / Major General Nick Pope, @MisrataPatriots, @dovenews, @AlmanaraMedia,
@Change lnLibya , @libyanfsl, @Sarahdrah , @libyanproud, @Tripolitanian, @libyans_revolt,
@freelibyanyouth, FarajAkwedeir

Additional comments:
Concerning my critique of NATO: Please note that I as everybody else am very grateful to NATO for what they did. But sometimes, they can be slow to act and what�s worse, I think some of their strategy is flawed. They think pounding Tripoli will make the regime crumble and cause an uprising there.

I shared this view but it turned out to be wrong; NATO thankfully is very mindful of what they target. They only hit military armour, ammunition and buildings but no civilian infrastructure nor even soldiers if it can be avoided. I applaud that; it�s a first in warfare.

Unfortunately, it also means as long as the soldiers are there, they will brutally suppress the civilian population even if they have only sticks and stones to do so. So there are guerrilla acts every night in Tripoli but no general uprising. That will only happen if the freedom fighters are at the gates of Tripoli. This means NATO should rethink the concept of concentrating strikes on Tripoli.

While people are being butchered elsewhere (Nafusa, Misrata, Zliten, Gharyan, Brega, etc.) and really concentrate their efforts there, where they are direly needed. That way they will enable the ORGANIZED freedom fighters of Misrata and the Nafusa Mountains to
finally march on Tripoli.

They have proved that they are capable enough to do it. Mind you, NATO: I�m not talking about a mindless full frontal assault that would only cost many lives. What I�m talking about is something Patton would have done: swift encircling moves aided by NATOs aircover & air scouting of enemy locations. That way, regime forces otherwise used to suppress the population of Tripoli would have to be used to ward of a possible attack from the outside, enabling the uprising from the inside.

The same tactics could be used in Misrata and Zliten. Holding back for a couple of days was O.K. to sweep newly liberated areas, to ensure supply lines and ward against possible counter-attacks, but hunkering down for 3(!) weeks only enabled regime forces to fortify Zliten and launch the deadly counter-attacks of the last couple of days. It didn�t help advancing & didn�t safe any lives either.

So NATO, please rethink your tactics and the strategic reasoning behind it. In Misrata/Zliten and elsewhere.

It does seem like the rebels are sick of waiting for NATO to help out in Misrata and Zliten, and have taken matters into their own hands.

There's also rumours of fighting in Zawiya, Surman and Sabratha, which are all close to each other and are rumoured to have received equipment and soldiers from the Nafusa rebels.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jun 11, 2011

# ? Jun 11, 2011 10:28

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

This video is well worth watching, even if you only watch the first 30 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHmy3JZ6WUM

I'm seeing more reports of fighting in Zliten, Zawiya, Surman and Sabratha. Seems the Nafusa break out has triggered alot of this, as well as Gaddafi's counterattack on Misrata.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 11:04 on Jun 11, 2011

# ? Jun 11, 2011 11:01

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The Guardian Live Blog is mainly focusing on Syria today:

quote:

Here's a round-up of the latest developments:

�Syrian tanks have sealed off the northern town of Jisr al-Shughour, with pro-democracy activists warning that they expect an all-out assault by government troops. More than 20 people were killed across the northern province of Idlib yesterday.

�Syrian helicopter gunships have fired machine guns to disperse thousands of protesters in the north-western town of Maarat al-Numaan in the first reported use of air power to quell unrest in the three-month-old uprising.

�The US has condemned Syria's "outrageous use of violence" against anti-government protesters. The White House said President Bashar al-Assad's regime was leading Syria down a "dangerous path" and called for "an immediate end to the brutality and violence".

�Syria has warned the United Nations against intervening in its internal affairs. Syrian foreign minister Walid al-Moualem said a European draft resolution condemning the country for its crackdown on anti-government protesters would only embolden "extremists and terrorists".

quote:

The besieged town of Jisr al-Shughour is almost deserted this morning, surrounded by tanks and heavy armour, AP reports:

quote:
Syrian state television on Saturday said army units arrested several leaders of the alleged armed groups in the area. About 80% of the population has fled, with more than 4,000 Syrians taking sanctuary across the Turkish frontier.

The town � normally inhabited by 41,000 people � has become a focal point of the Syrian revolution ever since Assad's regime vowed to wreak vengeance on its mostly forsaken inhabitants, who the regime accuses of killing 120 government troops last weekend.

Refugees who crossed the border into Turkey said the chaos had erupted as government forces and police mutinied and joined the local population against the forces loyal to Assad.

But AP reports that, despite the build up of Assad's forces, protests have spread to every major town in the region. In the town of Maaret al-Numan, 25 miles (40km) to the south-east of Jisr al-Shughour, thousands of protesters overwhelmed security forces and torched the courthouse and police station.

quote:

An elite army division commanded by Assad's younger brother, Maher, is believed to be responsible for most of yesterday's violence, AP reports:

quote:
The decision to mobilise his unit against the most serious threats to the Assad regime could be a sign of concern about the loyalty of regular conscripts.

quote:

Reuters has more details about the deployment of Syrian helicopter gunships in the northern town of Maarat al-Numaan.

The helicopters opened fire after security forces on the ground killed five protesters, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights told the news agency:

quote:
"At least five helicopters flew over Maarat al-Numaan and began firing their machine guns to disperse the tens of thousands who marched in the protest," one witness said by telephone.

"People hid in fields, under bridges and in their houses, but the firing continued on the mostly empty streets for hours," said the witness, who gave his name as Nawaf.

Syria's state television, in contrast, blamed violence in the area on anti-government groups. It made no mention of attack helicopters but said an ambulance helicopter had come under fire over Maarat from "terrorist armed groups," injuring crew.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 11:08

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Prisoner abuse by Syrian soldiers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=310fXL7ELHc

# ? Jun 11, 2011 11:27

RunningOnEmpty: Nov 1, 2005; Because I work hard for the money...bitch.

Brown Moses posted:

This video is well worth watching, even if you only watch the first 30 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHmy3JZ6WUM

I'm seeing more reports of fighting in Zliten, Zawiya, Surman and Sabratha. Seems the Nafusa break out has triggered alot of this, as well as Gaddafi's counterattack on Misrata.

The truck at 55.10 brings the war home for me. The poor bastard in the back, probably, never knew what hit him.

Jesus, I read the updates in this thread every morning, and it still surprises me how this thread surpasses all of the regular news channel. Thanks for all the work you've put in Brown Moses.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 13:02

truavatar: Mar 3, 2004; GIS Jedi

I think this is somewhat appropriate here:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2011/06/11/gates_slams_nato_allies_over_share_of_combat_burden/

quote:

BERLIN � Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates rebuked some of America�s staunchest allies yesterday, saying that the United States has a �dwindling appetite�� to serve as the heavyweight partner in the military order that has underpinned the US relationship with Europe since the end of World War II.

In an unusually stinging speech, made on his final visit to Europe before he retires at the end of the month, Gates condemned European defense cuts and said the United States is tired of engaging in combat missions for those who �don�t want to share the risks and the costs.��

�The blunt reality is that there will be dwindling appetite and patience in the US Congress, and in the American body politic writ large, to expend increasingly precious funds on behalf of nations that are apparently unwilling to devote the necessary resources . . . to be serious and capable partners in their own defense,�� he said in an address to a think tank in Brussels.

...

In Libya, Gates said, �the mightiest military alliance in history is only 11 weeks into an operation against a poorly armed regime in a sparsely populated country, yet many allies are beginning to run short of munitions, requiring the US, once more, to make up the difference.��

# ? Jun 11, 2011 13:07

Pureauthor: Jul 8, 2010; ASK ME ABOUT KISSING A GHOST

If what he says is true (I have no reason to believe it isn't), this doesn't really count as 'the mightiest military alliance in history', does it?

# ? Jun 11, 2011 13:15

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Fighting seems to be continuing, the Zawiya rebels claim to have destroyed two tanks, and there's rumours Gaddafi's army is trying to surround Zawiya and Surman. "Almatarad" has apparently been freed in Zawiya, but I've no idea where that is.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 13:21

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Two key pieces of news from Libya

quote:

In Libya, Pro-Gaddafi forces are surrounding the town of Zlitan, 160 km east of Tripoli, according to the rebels.

A rebel spokesman said clashes were continuing after anti-government forces seized control of some parts of the town.

"Zlitan is still surrounded by Gaddafi troops and they are threatening the residents to surrender or have their women raped by mercenaries," rebel spokesman Ahmed Bani said, althought it was not possible to independently verify his claim.

Zlitan is one of three towns that are largely government controlled between the rebel-held Misrata and the capital. Were it to fall, it could allow the anti-Gaddafi uprising to spread from Misrata, the biggest rebel outpost in western Libya, to Gaddafi's stronghold in Tripoli, Reuters reports.

The news agency said Gaddafi's forces also shelled the city of Gadamis for the first time overnight. The bombardment of the city, 600km (370 miles) south-west of Tripoli on the Tunisia and Algerian border, has opened up a new front in the five-month civil war.

quote:

Libyan rebels have taken control of parts of the western oil port of Zawiya, according to opposition spokesmen.

Zawiya was the closest city to Tripoli to fall into rebel hands but the opposition fighters crushed by pro-Gaddafi forces in March, AP reports.

Guma el-Gamaty, a London-based spokesman for the rebels' national council, said the rebels were in control of a large area on the western side of the city.

A rebel fighter who fled Zawiya at the end of March said "there are clashes inside Zawiya itself."

The rebel, who identified himself only as Kamal, said he had spoken with the fighters who were "back in the city".

As there's not any journalists near Zawiya here's some Tweets that may or may not be bullshit, posted oldest to newest from the past hour or so:
Zliten

quote:

@KC_Tripolitania: Zliten is under siege- ppl being arrested & snipers on rooftops shooting passersby. No food/meds allowed in. Humanitarian crisis unfolding.

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zliten: Arabiya confirms: Gaddafi forces are now surrounding & threatening Zliten residents after yesterday's clashes.

Zawiya

quote:

@Thanku4theAnger: Zawiya : Some FFs from Surman, Ajelat and Jamel have joined the Zawiya Freedom fighters fighting side by side. Allah Akbar

quote:

@LibyaInMe: Libya Alahrar TV- Military vehicles heading to Zawiya from Tripoli right now

quote:

@Gheblawi: Clashes continue between #Gaddafi forces and FF in many parts of #Azzawiya and reports of causalities on both sides

quote:

@Gheblawi: Reports of clashes in #Janzour (west #Tripoli) and around 27Km gate, the fighting west of #Tripoli is stretching

quote:

@EndTyranny101: Breaking: AJA confirms that FF in #Zawiya control many parts of the city & that 17 Gaddafi soldiers were captured.

quote:

@LibyaInMe: Libya Al-Ahrar TV- Gaddafi forces have blocked the Coastal Road leading into Zawiya

quote:

@LIBYA_ALHURA: BREAKING AJA : FFs now control the gate of a city to the west of Az Zawiah and to the east of Surman

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Gaddafi State TV saying "everything is fine in Zawiya", we all know what that means...

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: One of the hospitals is completely full of dead and injured Gaddafi soldiers. Reports that a convoy was ambushed near Sorman

quote:

@libyanproud: Breaking : Freedom Fighters have taken control of #Motred checkpoint ! Like I said knock knock Khwayldi

quote:

@GihanTadreft: Libya Al Ahrar: NATO planes are still hovering in the sky Al Zawia & Sorman, but without bombing so far.

quote:

@ThankU4theAnge: Libya Al-Ahrar TV: NATO has bombed Khamis brigade in vicinity of 27th Bridge today

quote:

@LibiZawi: I just called my friend in Mutrod now. They are agressively attacked by tanks now.

quote:

@compuclic: Fighting all along the coast now, Gads army must be stretched, hope FFs have a plan

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: Very loud explosions coming from Gaddafi troop concentrations in Jodayem. Could be @NATO strikes but no confirmation

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Gaddafi forces are using forests & parks effectively to hide from NATO jets. Tanks & artillery are camouflaged under trees.

quote:

@Breaking: Fighting in #Zawiya shuts Libya coast road - resident (via Reuters) http://t.co/fckdgbV @NATO - FF control coastal road now

quote:

@kileysky: Refugees rpt fighting at sabrata and el mutrot. Rebels claim ftg in Zawiya. Rebels say G shelling ghadamis

quote:

@WyreDavis: Reports of renewed fighting in key western town of Zawiya - scene of heavy shelling in March when taken by gvt troops. One to watch.

quote:

@libyarebirth: Almutrd 10km west of Zawia,clashes FF captured17G thugs,4trucks with14.5 guns,arms& ammunition & blocked main highway to Tunis .

quote:

@libyanrpoud: Breaking : #Zawiya : Big clashes in Manga'a street , Martyrs: Siraj Almagtoof , Mansour Hawisa , Hussein Shigif

NATO also just hit the main location Gaddafi troops were using to launch missile into Nalut and other regions in Nafusa. Hopefully it'll free up even more troops to head to Zawiya.

[edit] And now NATO is bombing Tripoli.

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Jun 11, 2011

# ? Jun 11, 2011 15:58

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Pureauthor posted:

If what he says is true (I have no reason to believe it isn't), this doesn't really count as 'the mightiest military alliance in history', does it?

Probably not in relative terms (ie relative to the strength of other armies at the time), but at present NATO certainly has the best trained, best equipped, and overall most powerful collection of military assets that has ever existed on earth.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 16:15

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

More updates from Twitter:

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: Unconfirmed: Gaddafi forces stationed at the coastal road have been bombed by @NATO as well. (via Facebook)

quote:

@Cameragimp: 4 distance explosions to the south of the Rixos hotel. Sound of jets high above.

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: Breaking: Heavy rain in Zawiya and people see it as a good omen... Unconfirmed reports that helicptrs are being used by @NATO

quote:

@LibyanProud: BREAKING : clashes in #msalatta between freedom fighters and gaddafi #security past 48 hours !

quote:

@Skeptical4: #NATO #strikes in #Zawiya: G losing control of #Libya W of #Tripoli, will b encircled from E, Nafusa/S and isolated from #Algeria supplies

quote:

@stephgosk: #Libya. Fighting in #zawiya. First time since early April. Could cut off road to Tunisia. Only 30 miles W ofTripoli. Rebels on the move?

quote:

@LibyanProud: BREAKING : freedom fighters from nafousa have connected with #zawyah ff through #BirAyyad and then #AwladSaqr

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Please note that although I tag my tweets as unconfirmed, they are from reliable sources. Better safe than sorry, however.

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: I hope that everything we are hearing from Zawiya is 100% true and confirmed, and I have no reason to think otherwise

quote:

@kileysky: Route from tripoli diverte around zawiya refugees report fighting in sabrata

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya & Sorman: Youth that escaped to fight in Nafousa when Zawiya was overrun are now back & at the front lines with their brothers

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Zawiya: Breaking: At least 5 tanks were destroyed by freedom fighters in today's clashes & hospitals are full of G casualties

quote:

@ChangeInLibya: Unconfirmed but BREAKING: NATO jets and helicopters attacked a convoy of Toyota tundras & tigers as they left #Tripoli on the way to #Zawiya

quote:

@libyanproud: #NAFUSA / #Zawiya : FF of Nafousa and Zawiya are now connected ! FF have taken AA Gun trucks , weapons and ammo from g forces in #AwladSaqr

Brown Moses fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jun 11, 2011

# ? Jun 11, 2011 17:05

big fat retard: Nov 11, 2003; I AM AN IDIOT WITH A COMPULSIVE NEED TO TROLL EVERY THREAD I SEE!!!! PAY NO ATTENTION TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY!!!

Brown Moses posted:

This video is well worth watching, even if you only watch the first 30 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHmy3JZ6WUM

I'm seeing more reports of fighting in Zliten, Zawiya, Surman and Sabratha. Seems the Nafusa break out has triggered alot of this, as well as Gaddafi's counterattack on Misrata.

That video is like a brutal deconstruction of Cloverfield. The monster is real and the carnage and suffering is genuine.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 17:09

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# ? Apr 25, 2024 07:15

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

The Ghadames rumor is very interesting not just because of the border link to Algeria that has been open to the regime but also because it's Tuareg territory and might mean estrangement from Grad-affi.

I did not expect the Zawiyans to be able to mount a second insurrection after the first was crushed. If some fighting men managed to flee to the mountains, that would be great news; they weren't all killed or captured back then. An alliance from the mountains to the sea would be a good position.

What happened to those troops that were bombing the Nafusas from the plains? If the Nafusans did truly reach the coastal rebels, they had to go through their enemies somewhere. If they hold the Bir Ayyad to (Zawiya and/or Surman) road(s), does that mean they've cut off those troops to the west? Or did they retreat?

Eh, there is now a wikipedia page for the Battle of Zliten. If the Misratans can reach the denser areas, their city-fight experience could be applied and anything outside west of town can get NATOed.

# ? Jun 11, 2011 18:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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