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Gotta say, the epilogue is loving awesome as well. Varys and his little spiders loving killing both Pycelle and Ser Kevan in order to completely shatter the realm is quite nice. Can't wait for the clusterfuck that ensures. Which I won't, because the next book will never come out
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Jul 12, 2011 22:10
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ZeeBoi posted:
Thats because he loving finished the trilogy... Who gave a gently caress about the Silmarillion? poo poo he tried to publish that lump of poo poo BEFORE lord of the rings, and noone wanted it. PS: the LOTR was published over what.. 5 years? 5 YEARS YOU gently caress. GRRM should be flattered people are demanding his book, and loving GRATEFUL. He is an absolute fucker. PS: We _should_ have done that poo poo with Herbert. Those books by his son are loving wretched.
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Jul 12, 2011 22:14
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Lawlicaust posted:I got the same info from that scene as well. It seems strangely heavy-handed for Martin though. I expected something a bit more subtle. Let's pretend that we haven't had 10 years to pick apart every word in the books though. I only registered that something weird might be going on with Jon's parents years after I first read the series. And that's only because I've read it more than once. Assuming you don't ever hear of or read the books until after A Dream of Spring (yeah, yeah, it's never coming out. I know.) is released, that plotline would be huge. 7 books in, and the guy whos supposed to be the guy from the first books son is actually not his son but his nephew, instead being the secret bastard son of the once prince and raised in secret his entire life by his uncle pretending to be his dad.  But instead, we have had a decade to figure that out on our own. So no matter how amazing the eventual reveal is, it will seem blatantly obvious and 20 years too late to most of us.
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Jul 12, 2011 22:50
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NPR interview with GURM: click here Which one of you is Tom Ashbrook? He spoiled hundreds fo people on air with no warning. He must be one of you.
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Jul 12, 2011 23:01
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Lawlicaust posted:Moving away from the negative, let's do some discussion/speculation. 1. Jon Connington seems to think so. He specifically thinks "I failed the father (Rhaegar) but I won't fail his son." It's possible that Varys deceived him, of course, but he'd have to find another child extremely close in age and with the Targ coloring. Not only that, but he'd have to have known for certain that the kid would develop the Targ coloring since obviously hair color isn't showing as an infant. Not an easy thing to come by, and that'd an awfully long and dangerous con Varys would be running. 2. My pet theory is Ashara Dayne. The age is about right, she's described as being pretty, she's a free spirit, etc. I had put forth - before the book - the idea that Ashara had faked her own death and gone into hiding with baby Aegon. This fits I think. 3. Dany still fits all of the prophecies that we know of. Lightbringer is clearly her dragons, etc. 4. Bluh 5. No way 6. "Fire consumes, but cold preserves" - four stab wounds in non-fatal locations is survivable, especially when your pulse rate is lowered due to the cold already. That's not counting uber powerful Mel, who hasn't yet used the kiss of life or whatever it's called.
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Jul 12, 2011 23:07
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For anyone that's interested, this was my pet theory about Ashara Dayne I came up with before ADWD:Ray_ posted:I really think that Ashara absconded with baby Aegon. Ashara was mentioned as being a lady in waiting for Elia. Ned could have easily been the delivery guy for the baby when he brought Dawn to Starfall. Ashara then fakes her death - remember, her body was never found - and goes across the narrow sea with baby Aegon. Going back and re-reading the posts about the theory is interesting, since we hadn't yet found out in ADWD that baby Aegon really was alive: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3401916&pagenumber=287&perpage=40#post392755496
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Jul 12, 2011 23:15
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Ray_ posted:1. Jon Connington seems to think so. He specifically thinks "I failed the father (Rhaegar) but I won't fail his son." It's possible that Varys deceived him, of course, but he'd have to find another child extremely close in age and with the Targ coloring. Not only that, but he'd have to have known for certain that the kid would develop the Targ coloring since obviously hair color isn't showing as an infant. Not an easy thing to come by, and that'd an awfully long and dangerous con Varys would be running. Even if Varys is running a con, I bet no one else really knows the truth. Targ coloring is apparently pretty common among Lyseni. He might be Illyrio's son, but that's a pretty big stretch. Ray_ posted:2. My pet theory is Ashara Dayne. The age is about right, she's described as being pretty, she's a free spirit, etc. I had put forth - before the book - the idea that Ashara had faked her own death and gone into hiding with baby Aegon. This fits I think. Agreed. Selmy will probably end up recognizing her. Ray_ posted:3. Dany still fits all of the prophecies that we know of. Lightbringer is clearly her dragons, etc. The whole bleeding star bit seems to give some support for Jon being AA. I still think that at current, the prophesy fits Dany better, but that could change. Ray_ posted:4. Bluh Yeah. Not a clue here either. He's some sort of wight/zombie. Other than the obvious clues, this was confirmed when he couldn't enter the greenseer's lair.People were speculating for a while that he was Benjen, but I really don't think that fits. If Coldhands was Benjen, there isn't really a good reason for him hiding his identity from Bran. It would make Bran more likely to trust him and Bran will likely find out eventually with his new powers. I think he's probably some really old ranger, maybe even a former Lord Commander, but no one we've really heard about so far. Ray_ posted:5. No way Seems like a cheap cliffhanger. Theon/Asha escaping and the Manderlys really cast doubt on the authenticity of the letter. The part about Mance is intriguing though. Ray_ posted:6. "Fire consumes, but cold preserves" - four stab wounds in non-fatal locations is survivable, especially when your pulse rate is lowered due to the cold already. That's not counting uber powerful Mel, who hasn't yet used the kiss of life or whatever it's called. And who knows what warging stuff GRRM could pull out. Here we have a ton of focus on warging and death, but no one really does it successfully. I guess I'll toss out a few more: 7. Jaime and Brianne: Is she taking him to his death? 8. Bran's visions? Who are they of? Future, Present, Past? Bonus: Is Bran now warging into Mormont's raven as Bloodraven likely used to?
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Jul 13, 2011 00:26
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Ray_ posted:1. Jon Connington seems to think so. He specifically thinks "I failed the father (Rhaegar) but I won't fail his son." It's possible that Varys deceived him, of course, but he'd have to find another child extremely close in age and with the Targ coloring. Not only that, but he'd have to have known for certain that the kid would develop the Targ coloring since obviously hair color isn't showing as an infant. Not an easy thing to come by, and that'd an awfully long and dangerous con Varys would be running. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 02:16 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 02:10
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Toplowtech posted:The Golden Company was formed by Targaryen "Great Bastards" and most of them probably still have the Valerian look. For all we know Jon/Varys and the Bittersteels just decided it would be a good idea to rise him as if he was the real son of Rhaegar, since he looked Targaryen. I thought this before the book came out, but there's a few issues. 1. The Golden Company's leader isn't a Blackfyre 2. Maelys the Monstrous was the last Blackfyre, slain by Barristan the Bold 50 years ago 3. There doesn't appear to be ANY Blackfyres in the company 4. Jon Connington faked his death in order to leave the Golden Company and raise the boy 5. Connington is a POV character with lines and thoughts like the following: Connington posted:“I failed the father,” he said, “but I will not fail the son.” Connington posted:He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body. Connington posted:Death, he knew, but slow. I still have time. A year. Two years. Five. Some stone men live for ten. Time enough to cross the sea, to see Griffin’s Roost again. To end the Usurper’s line for good and all, and put Rhaegar’s son upon the Iron Throne. Connington posted:Varys had been adamant about the need for secrecy. Connington posted:Griff had gone along with the Spider’s scheme for the boy’s sake, but that did not mean he liked it any better.
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Jul 13, 2011 03:17
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So here's maybe the primary motivation beyond love for Rhaegar to put his dragondick in Lyanna?quote:After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward. Dragon's gotta have 3 heads, yo. Elia was physically incapable of giving Rhaegar any more head.
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Jul 13, 2011 03:25
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Barristan posted:But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark? Hmm, dirty old man Barristan the Bold was in freakin love with Ashara Dayne. He thinks she killed herself out of grief for the stillborn daughter she lost and perhaps for Ned. Looking as if Ned maybe DID father a bastard, but she was stillborn. Lady Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Has to be. It makes too much drat sense. Connington faked his death in order to raise Aegon, and Ashara did the same thing. She's still beautiful despite being older, description puts her right about Ned's age it sounds like. She's got old stretch marks from having a baby - a stillborn daughter, perhaps? She's referred to as "Lady" Lemore and not as Septa. That's a very specific honorific for Westerosi. Rhaegar's really close friend as a surrogate father for his son. Elia's really close friend as a surrogate mother for her son. The only thing holding it back from 100% is that, near as I can tell, there's no description of Lady Lemore's hair/eye coloring. Edit: crap, sorry for the triple(!) post, truly
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Jul 13, 2011 03:39
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Ray_ posted:I thought this before the book came out, but there's a few issues. Edit: about your "Ashara Dayne" theory. Didn't Ashara Dayne have purple eyes? Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 03:54 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 03:45
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The first chapter with Davos loving owns. I love GURMS ability to weave character action with character dialogue and tie them both in with the larger narrative. So when Stannis's kingdom-to-be is revealed as totally owned, and that pirate prince is totally owning his trencher, its just so stupidly baldfaced you cant help but love it. shine on you fat gently caress.
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Jul 13, 2011 04:15
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Toplowtech posted:Edit: about your "Ashara Dayne" theory. Didn't Ashara Dayne have purple eyes? She does. However, I don't believe Lemore's eye color was mentioned.
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Jul 13, 2011 04:24
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:Yes. AA will be reborn "under a bleeding star". The knight who gets killed by the giant right before john gets stabbed had stars as his sign. John was just "killed" under a bleeding star and he's definitely going to be reborn. I just read on westeros that the knight who dies was put in the book as a result of a football bet (Ser Patrek from pat5150 on the westeros boards) and the knights sign was a reference to the bet. If this really is the lead-up to Jon/Azor Ahai's rebirth, then he's going to be reborn under a bleeding Dallas Cowboy's logo. Which would rule. SmugDogMillionaire fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 04:26
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:I just read on westeros that the knight who dies was put in the book as a result of a football bet (Ser Patrek from pat5150 on the westeros boards) and the knights sign was a reference to the bet. Seriously? Welp. There goes that theory I guess?
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Jul 13, 2011 05:10
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kcr posted:PS: the LOTR was published over what.. 5 years? 5 YEARS YOU gently caress. GRRM published 3 books in five years too  Also obviously Coldhands is a wight Bloodraven is possessing. How did you not get that as soon as you saw him and what he could do? e: Also Ashara Dayne looked like a Targaryen. Per Tower of the Hand, AGOT Catelyn II says "The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes." whowhatwhere fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 05:19
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Toplowtech posted:The Blackfyres are dead. But they weren't the only Targaryan bastards inside the Golden Company. Bittersteel was a Braken/Targaryan bastard and the sons of Bittersteel would actually be called Rivers. The Golden Company's war cry is "Beneath the gold, the bitter steel" not "the black fire" but yeah Strickland isn't a particularly impressive leader and he is clearly afraid to fight. Tristan Rivers ("bastard, outlaw and exile") is lot more decisive and actually eager to please "Aegon". I was using Blackfyre as a blanket name for the exiled Targ great bastards. There's a reason for that. Bittersteel's children are never mentioned, and we don't know if he even had any. We do know that he fled across the Narrow Sea after Redgrass Field with his brother's (Daemon Blackfyre) remaining children. When he fled Redgrass Field, he made sure to grab Blackfyre - the ancestral sword of House Targaryen, given to Daemon by Aegon the Unworthy, and Daemon's inspiration for his House name. The last Targ-related commander of the Golden Company we know of was Maelys Blackfyre. We never hear about any other Targ-related commander (or even member) of the Golden Company that isn't a Blackfyre. I've had the impression that Bittersteel basically adopted his dead brother's kids as his own and didn't really have his own family. Admittedly, that's just an impression that's formed in my head without any backing whatsoever. Oh yeah, and a somewhat important fact, considering the way genetics work in GRRMland: Bittersteel had the purple eyes but black hair. Baby Aegon has the Targ-silver hair.
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Jul 13, 2011 06:24
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About 2/3 through ADWD and holy poo poo am I sick of the Dany chapters. They just drag on and on and she has yet to actually do something besides moan about Dariio. However, I'm really enjoying the rest of the book and even though Quentyn is a total tool, I really like him.
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Jul 13, 2011 06:47
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whowhatwhere posted:
She has dark hair though, according to Barristan in ADWD.
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Jul 13, 2011 07:17
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- To counterbalance so many people feeling scandalised by Ramsay's bedroom antics and Dany's teenage hormones, I wish to publicly thank Gurm for refraining from giving us a steamy double-dwarf sex scene. Wait, he's saving that for TWoW. gently caress. Well, at least it's one thing guaranteeing he will get it done. - Lemore sounds really obviously like Ashara Dayne, except for one detail: wouldn't Tyrion be able to immediately put two and two together upon seeing a Westerosi woman with violet eyes? It's either a Targ or a Dayne. I can't see how this can be anything other than either a plot hole or Gurm setting up a red herring only to reveal her as Lady Mentionedonce of House Inpassing. ^^^^^ "Fair" can easily refer to complexion, especially in pre-modern times where it was a sign of high status. - I can't see Theon as being now a physical eunuch. It's really not GRRM's style to gliss over such matters over what, seven POV chapters? Also there is stuff like this: quote:He wanted to hit her, to smash that mocking smile off her face. He wanted to kiss her, to gently caress her right there on the table and make her cry his name. But he knew he dare not touch her, in anger or in lust. which does not strictly imply he still has a cock, but I can't see those exact words being used if he did not. - Speculation now: which of Bran's weirwood visions were meaningful? First was obviously Lyanna, but wasn't she the youngest of the Stark siblings? The pregnant woman praying for vengeance reminds me of some story, but I can't remember which.
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Jul 13, 2011 07:37
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The whispering of his name Theon heard in the Winterfell godswood, was that Bran looking through the heart trees? Or was he just hallucinating or whatever?
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Jul 13, 2011 08:09
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Lawlicaust posted:Seriously? Welp. There goes that theory I guess? Nope all the Red Lady's visions came back to Snow, when she asks who Azor Ahari is when gazing into the flames. It is so loving obvious now it isn't funny.
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Jul 13, 2011 09:18
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whowhatwhere posted:GRRM published 3 books in five years too drat you for being right. It's probably more if we count Fever Dreamez and WildCard books... quote:Ashara Dayne I don't have the new book yet - and while I know Ashara was important.. I have no idea who she is, except that she has something to do with Ned - he killed her brother or husband or some poo poo, so she allegedly jumped off a cliff.. but was also maybe jons mother? And I think she is related to DarkStar? What are we supposed to know going about her going into this new book? TERFherder fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 11:05
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I still really don't get the stupid prejudices that the Night's Watch holds towards the wildlings. I think if I was an Isrealite facing a Palestinian and we both saw a zombie, we'd kill the zombie first and then kill each other.
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Jul 13, 2011 11:55
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The prologue is about a freezing dude getting a magical sex change while thinking about being hosed by a wolf and then turning into one This is truly one of the greatest series
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Jul 13, 2011 12:21
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Dr I am a Doctor posted:The prologue is about a freezing dude getting a magical sex change while thinking about being hosed by a wolf and then turning into one God, once you frame it like that there's nothing you can do. It just clings to you. Like some dirty, soiled rag on your face you can't claw off. I hate you, and I hate me for reading it.
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Jul 13, 2011 13:31
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Aurubin posted:I still really don't get the stupid prejudices that the Night's Watch holds towards the wildlings. I think if I was an Isrealite facing a Palestinian and we both saw a zombie, we'd kill the zombie first and then kill each other. Mostly I can't figure out Bowen Marsh's plan. You want to mutiny because you think it's your mission to fight off the wildlings, fine. But if so, do it before the wildlings cross the wall, for gently caress's sake. Kill/imprison Jon a few days earlier, you can lock the gates and watch as Tormund gets eaten by wights. But what the gently caress do you think is going to happen now? You don't have the strength to massacre the wildlings, and hostages are only good to make their relatives obey, not to make them accept a genocide. tirinal posted:God, once you frame it like that there's nothing you can do. It just clings to you. Like some dirty, soiled rag on your face you can't claw off. One idea I've been considering is to make a few posts spoiling new readers with the most outrageous stuff that sounds exactly like the "HODOR IS KING IN THE NORTH" joke spoilers; probably throwing in a couple of wrong ones to keep people guessing. Here's what I had come up with: BRAN RAPES HODOR SANSA QUITS JOFFREY AND MARRIES TYRION JON GROWS A SECOND PENIS (or whatever) RENLY DIES OF A MAGICAL VAGINA TYWIN POOPS HIMSELF TO DEATH
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Jul 13, 2011 13:59
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So I was reading the AV Club and someone told a kind of funny story:The Motherfucking Shore Patrol posted:
I mean, we already know what's going to happen to the orphans, so it's not much of a cliffhanger, but it's a solid beginning.
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Jul 13, 2011 14:36
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Just finished the book and I have to agree with some of your Dany and Jon chapter views: they are terrible. Dany because there's a billion people with weird names who you don't care about, and Jon because the tone of his chapters are completely different in tone than the 3rd book. I never really had a problem with any of the Dany chapters from the previous books but these are just bad.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:41
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Seriously, where the gently caress do you guys find this time to read? I'm only like 10% of the way through the book. Maybe I'm just a really slow loving reader... or maybe it's because I'm actually employed and am taking summer classes, who knows.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:47
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Contra Calculus posted:Seriously, where the gently caress do you guys find this time to read? I'm only like 10% of the way through the book. Maybe I'm just a really slow loving reader... or maybe it's because I'm actually employed and am taking summer classes, who knows. I read pretty fast if I feel like reading. I finished 5 or 6 sizeable novels this month.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:53
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Hahaha I feel really bad that the most emotion I felt for Quentyn Martell was to laugh at how absurdly stupidly he died.
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Jul 13, 2011 15:56
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NihilCredo posted:Mostly I can't figure out Bowen Marsh's plan. You want to mutiny because you think it's your mission to fight off the wildlings, fine. But if so, do it before the wildlings cross the wall, for gently caress's sake. Kill/imprison Jon a few days earlier, you can lock the gates and watch as Tormund gets eaten by wights. But what the gently caress do you think is going to happen now? You don't have the strength to massacre the wildlings, and hostages are only good to make their relatives obey, not to make them accept a genocide. 
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Jul 13, 2011 15:57
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I like how in Melisandre's chapter she basically admits she has no loving idea what she's doing. From a reader perspective it's darkly humorous. She's basically playing the apocalypse by ear.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:14
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^^^^ I used to loathe Melisandre, after her POV chapter I think she's utterly awesome. A little plot dumb ("I ask for Azor Ahai and I get Jon Snow", geez, WHAT COULD IT POSSIBLY MEAN?), but ten times more interesting than before. I hope Moqorro gets a POV chapter too. Pity she didn't explain anything about Lightbringer though. Charlie Mopps posted:Didnt they do it because Jon wanted to go to Winterfell, which would basically make him a traitor for messing in the affairs of the kingdoms and abandoning the Night's Watch, and thus punishable by death? Or maybe it was all a set up by Melisanre so Jon could become Azor Ahai Reborn. Yeah, that's possible. Or maybe it's a little of column A and a little of column B; "for the Watch" is quite ambiguous. Still, did they stop to think for a moment of what would happen now? Jon doesn't seem to be terribly bright either. The only hostage Ramsay claims to have is Mance Rayder, and the wildlings would have happily gone to rescue him without a single Night's Watch with them - and if Jon went and saved their folk at Hardhome in the meanwhile, they would probably still be grateful to him. Speaking of which, how come nobody in the Shieldhall brought up the fact that they saw Mance Rayder burn? NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 16:19
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Aurubin posted:Hahaha I feel really bad that the most emotion I felt for Quentyn Martell was to laugh at how absurdly stupidly he died. I'm pretty sure this is everyone's reaction. All those Dornish chapters, that pretty cool speech by the Prince at the end of Feast, all buildup to Quentyn dying like a chump. edit: Quentyn dying is "The Sun Rising in the West and Setting In the East" NihilCredo posted:^^^^ I used to loathe Melisandre, after her POV chapter I think she's utterly awesome. A little plot dumb ("I ask for Azor Ahai and I get Jon Snow", geez, WHAT COULD IT POSSIBLY MEAN?), but ten times more interesting than before. I hope Moqorro gets a POV chapter too. New POVs is the absolute last thing I want SmugDogMillionaire fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jul 13, 2011 |
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Jul 13, 2011 16:23
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Party Plane Jones posted:Just finished the book and I have to agree with some of your Dany and Jon chapter views: they are terrible. Dany because there's a billion people with weird names who you don't care about, and Jon because the tone of his chapters are completely different in tone than the 3rd book. I never really had a problem with any of the Dany chapters from the previous books but these are just bad. As for Dany, I think its intentional that everyone has weird names that you don't care about. Very few of the Meereenese and Yunkai'i have any sort of character development, and that's (most likely) intentional. Dany's story in a dance with dragons seems to me to be about her trying to be a good monarch and getting completely hosed (and literally) because of it. But the Targaryens weren't good monarchs; they were a vicious, insane family that held everything together with fire and blood. Dany's last chapter in ADwD is a huge turning point for her, possibly one where she descends to madness. I can't wait for TWoW to see how similar to Aerys she becomes. I fully expect her to return to Meereen, kill most of her hostages, and burn the pyramids of anyone who dissents. And possibly kill Barristan for betraying her and ending the peace. As for Jon, I don't know what to make of it yet.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:26
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"If I look back, I am lost" is the new "You know nothing, Jon Snow" in that I'm sick of hearing it twice a page. Except that Jon's mantra exhorts him to think, observe, and be careful with judgment, while Dany's mantra is basically "LA LA LA THINKING IS BAD LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU".
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Jul 13, 2011 16:36
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^^^^ No, "Words are wind" is the new "You know nothing, Jon Snow". Suddenly everyone is saying this.Party Plane Jones posted:Just finished the book and I have to agree with some of your Dany and Jon chapter views: they are terrible. Dany because there's a billion people with weird names who you don't care about, and Jon because the tone of his chapters are completely different in tone than the 3rd book. I never really had a problem with any of the Dany chapters from the previous books but these are just bad. I haven't finished it yet - I'm about halfway through, but as for Jon, it seems that there's still some of that "5 year gap" Jon lingering in his personality or he's just in denial. GRRM tried to just whitewash this with the "kill the boy" stuff.
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Jul 13, 2011 16:42
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