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bengraven posted:I don't even remember that part. quote:The wildling [Rattleshirt] began to scrape the dirt out from beneath his nails with the point of his dagger. “I’ve sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman’s wife. A man should die the way he’s lived. For me that’s steel in hand.” quote:Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes, took up his lute, and launched into “The Anyway, bengraven posted:As for the Targ thing, when Selmy says that Aerys took the bedding a bit too far, I think it was more of sticking his fingers in her or rubbing her up and down. I think he literally said something about Aerys not being able to take advantage of "first night". I think he just molested Joanna, not hosed her. Yeah, that's the meaning I got too. It's mentioned a couple times though that Tywin suddenly sent Joanna back to Casterly Rock "on a thin pretext", and we know Tywin is pretty prickly regarding his pride and held a huge grudge against Aerys afterwards.
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Jul 14, 2011 23:35
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Brannock posted:Having Jaime/Cersei being fathered by Aerys though makes the whole Tywin/Jaime/Tyrion father/son thing hell of a lot more tragic, gives us an explanation for Jaime/Cersei's penchant for royal incest babies, explains Cersei's attraction to fire, excessive pride, growing paranoia, insanity, and cruelty - and all of that counting double for Joffrey. This seems 1000% like something GRRM would do. Bitter as hell irony is his dealio.
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Jul 14, 2011 23:46
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Gaussian posted:I figured out the Mance thing about midway through the chapter where Theon escapes. That was a real headslapper.  as hell and apparently need GURM to spell it out for me before catching on. I was wondering how the Boltons got Mance. I really should reread all books and pay way more attention to everything. 
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Jul 14, 2011 23:50
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Revenant Threshold posted:I liked the interplay between the Dany/Tyrion chapters, even if it did drive me mad. This is pretty much my exact opinion. I know it was done intentionally and in a purposefully coy way in many places but god dammit I just want Tyrion and Dany's plots to merge already. Tyrion didn't even get to see a loving dragon in this book. 
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Jul 14, 2011 23:51
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Didn't the Targaryens also have a tendency to father twins? Cersei/Jaime being Targaryens is more likely than Tyrion, I think. It would also mean that Tywin's only legitimate child turned out to be a dwarf that killed his wife, which is pretty bitter for Tywin.
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Jul 14, 2011 23:52
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Kainser posted:Yeah, but that line was more about establishing that Aerys wanted to gently caress her, meaning that it's very possible that he did so while Tywin was at King's Landing. You know after Connington/Aegon, Jon is a Targ, Arstan was Barristan, Lumare possibly being Ashara, I'm kind of getting sick of the whole "this character is actually THIS character". It's kind of cheap now. The Connington thing was spoiled so I wasn't shocked, but when he revealed that Aegon was Young Griff I was like "well...okay...but can that be the last?". Brannock posted:Anyway, Didn't catch that. But then again, I know many Goons who didn't catch that Renly/Loras were gay, so I don't feel so bad.
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Jul 14, 2011 23:55
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The great M posted:Didn't the Targaryens also have a tendency to father twins? Cersei/Jaime being Targaryens is more likely than Tyrion, I think. Also, didn't someone tell Jaime that it was Tyrion who was his father's son, and not Jaime? At the time I just thought she meant that Tyrion had all Tywin's wit and cunning and smarts, but maybe it was literal...
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Jul 14, 2011 23:57
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It's definitely not over for Jon, but his body might be dead. He might jump from dying Jon -> Ghost -> new body, that way he can break his vows. Sure seems like a lot of wasted buildup over the origin of his original bastard body if GRRM goes that route though. Dany being immune to fire again is supreme trolling material for people who said her funeral pyre immunity was a "one time magic event".
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Jul 15, 2011 00:03
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Jon is definitely no longer the Lord Commander at the very least, even if he somehow gets back from being stabbed to death, which I doubt. (I can't see the Night's Watch accepting him if he is resurrected or wargs into another body), it'll be interesting to see who is elected as number 999. I'm hoping that it'll be Thorne  Unless the whole thing is dissolved and the wildlings take over or something. e; Maybe Jon wargs into the giant 
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Jul 15, 2011 00:09
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More thematic evidence for Jaime/Cersei being secret Targaryens: -Irony in Jaime killing his own father and being accursed as a Kin[g]slayer, never being able to shake that moniker -Cersei having an immediate attraction to Rhaegar (who would be her half-brother) and imagining them flying dragons -Tywin, who everyone that saw him as Hand thought was King, could only produce a dwarf as heir from Joanna, but Aerys, who everyone had a low opinion of, produced two "perfect" twins from Joanna -Inverted parallels between Viserys/Daenerys and Cersei/Jaime
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Jul 15, 2011 00:13
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BLeh bleh bleh, only reason GRRM ever writes a likeable character is to make his readers wince when he kills them off This book took five years because he knew it would take that long for readers to forget that
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Jul 15, 2011 00:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:BLeh bleh bleh, only reason GRRM ever writes a likeable character is to make his readers wince when he kills them off Au contraire, after ADWD having what, six fake deaths*? I've read a few fans writing with a completely straight face: "GRRM needs to stop pulling his punches and start killing characters for real, man". * (Aegon, Jon Connington, Moqorro, Ashara Dayne, Mance Rayder, Jon Snow, and I'm probably forgetting a few)
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Jul 15, 2011 00:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:BLeh bleh bleh, only reason GRRM ever writes a likeable character is to make his readers wince when he kills them off I never once liked Jon. His chapters always sucked, and he's a boring as gently caress character. Sam is infinitely more interesting than him.
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Jul 15, 2011 00:30
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NihilCredo posted:Au contraire, after ADWD having what, six fake deaths*? I've read a few fans writing with a completely straight face: "GRRM needs to stop pulling his punches and start killing characters for real, man". The only character even worth mentioning there is Jon; the others are so minor half the people reading the series probably don't even remember that half of them were supposed to be dead. Montasque posted:Jon's chapters got a bit repetitive(Wildlings must be saved, Kill the boy, the black brothers bitch, Jon makes a deal, Queensmen are dicks, repeat over and over) But had a GREAT Julius Caesar ending. Once Jon claimed that he was marching for Winterfell I knew that he was 'done'(He will be back, one form or another). Each time a character breaks a code of conduct, or go against their nature, they are punished horribly in these books. From Eddard denouncing his honour to save his family, Cat releasing Jamie, Robb taking a bride not a Frey, and Theon being a traitor. You break the rules, you get punished, and Jon broke a sacred oath with that speech, and it was the moment the stewards had been waiting for. I am one of those who believe Jon is 'The Prince who was Promised', and we are finally getting his transformation into that character. I agree that this is GRRM's approach to the books, except that in this scenario, GRRM is Ramsay Snow/Bolton and his characters and readers are all Reek. edit: correction: his characters are Reek, the readers are the false Arya. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 00:34
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Brannock posted:I always thought that the whole Aerys/Joanna reveal was meant to bolster the theory that Jaime/Cersei are secret Targs, not Tyrion. If Tyrion is Aerys's son then that completely sinks a lot of really great character development, including "You are not my son", "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you", and generally just makes it convoluted and dumb. If GRRM does this I'll give him a loving standing ovation, because no one is expecting it and everyone has been expecting Tyrion to be the secret Targ. I would still prefer none of them to be Targs at all, but if I have to take the twins being Targs or Tyrion being one, I'll take the twins any day.
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Jul 15, 2011 00:37
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I'm clearly an idiot but what's happening with Mance? I don't remember who Abel is and how he's connected with Mance. When Mel did her weird cloaking/camo/whatever the gently caress it was, I got instantly confused. Who's the Lord of Bones?
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Jul 15, 2011 00:49
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And... done. No Rickon, no Undead roundtable with Catelyn, Dondarrion and friends. Only a brief glimpse of Jaime and Brienne. No further insight into Littlefinger and Sansa, or the Damphair either, though I guess we got enough of them in the previous installment. Who thought bringing the Mountain back as a shambling zombie was a good idea? For that matter, why are some of the wights chill dudes on the side of justice and the Westerosi way, but most seem to be Romero-grade undead? Other questions remain: - Lord Manderly (rad dude extraordinaire) was conspiring with Davos to smuggle Rickon back into Westeros, right? Any idea where he was sending Davos? - What the hell happened at Winterfell? The Bravoosi banker and Jon Snow's raven from Bolton sure paint different pictures of the situation there. Observations: - I assume the Watch who turned on Jon are "filing their grievances" over his soft-handed treatment of the wildlings and/or in the thrall of Queen Selyse/Melisandre, though I mostly expect Melisandre to save Snow, one of the side effects of her sorcery being that Mormont's sword is going to take on its own real glow, complete with radiating heat afterward. Might be Jon turns into one of the sentient wights like Coldhands, or comes out crispy like Victarion's hand, but he'll be back and more revered than ever. - Far too little Bran, but at least what we got was good. - Unlike most of you, I liked reading about events in Meereene and the Wall and looked forward to those chapters. Yes, Dany is a twit and Captain Jack - I like Aegon - he listened to Tyrion. Didn't care for the Dornish prince. Did appreciate his final acts, however. - Dragons rule, slavers drool. - Tyrion still has the best dialogue of anybody. I genuinely feel bad for Pretty Pig and Crunch, less so for Penny, but I'd like to see her get a happy ending, or at least a quick and painless death. - Barristan remains the baddest dude. - Asha's chapters could have been omitted entirely. I like the character but her chapters ultimately served little purpose. We got as much info out of her POV as we did from Bolton's raven to the Wall; It's cold, and there are wolves. Also, Stannis sucks. - I love Cersei. She doesn't have the most engrossing story right now, but I absorb every bit of her chapters all the same. I was hoping for a Septa or the High Septon POV this book, but maybe that will come in the next. - The timeline seems to suddenly converge and overlap and tell the story of a particular cluster of days towards the end. If I have it right, Victarion is arriving just outside the Meereene waters as Dany starts to head home from Drogon's nest as Barristan is dodging pale-horse-victims-and-hostage mortars from the Yunkdaddies outside the city walls. Meanwhile, Aegon and his sellswords have swept through the southeast of Westeros and are about to march on (or otherwise take) Storm's End, Cersei awaits trial, and Kevan ends up butchered in the rookery with Pycelle. And in the North? Christ - apparently Stannis has been routed and slain, yet Jeyne "Arya Bolton" Poole and Theon/Reek managed to avoided getting recaptured, while Jon gets slain at the Wall. Oh, and it's officially Winter. That's a crescendo of bleak right there. Manos del Sino fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 00:52
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VaultAggie posted:I'm clearly an idiot but what's happening with Mance? I don't remember who Abel is and how he's connected with Mance. When Mel did her weird cloaking/camo/whatever the gently caress it was, I got instantly confused. Who's the Lord of Bones? Quick timeline of events: -Mance is slated to be burnt by Melisandre -Melisandre meets with Mance in secret, puts an illusion on him to make him look like Rattleshirt, puts Rattleshirt in Mance's cage illusioned to look like Mance -Jon kills Rattleshirt with arrows -Mance walks around acting like Rattleshirt and gets a couple good beats on Jon to repay him for lying to Mance -Melisandre sees "Arya" in the flames, sends Mance to smuggle Arya-Jeyne away from the Boltons so Jon can save her without having to compromise his position as LC, trying to ingratiate herself to Jon -Mance becomes Abel and takes 6 spearwives and goes to Winterfell disguised as a traveling troupe, murders guards, sets up rescue scheme. Is caught by Ramsay Bolton who kills all the spearwives and cages Mance again edit: The "Arya" Melisandre sees turns out to be Alys Karstark, forgot to include that. Brannock fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 00:52
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I know we all hate AFFC with a burning passion here, but I am really starting to miss Jaime POV's edit: VVVVVVV I don't think he's going to die yet. Someone else mentioned that there's a pattern for when characters 'die.' For Robb, it was when he broke his oath, for Jon it's when he broke his oath, for Cat it was when she set Jaime free, for Theon it was when he betrayed the Starks. I don't think he'll survive to the end of the series though. Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 00:59
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I dunno, I can't see Jaime getting hanged by Lady Stoneheart, but who knows? Brienne doesn't seem the type to suddenly turn around and backstab Jaime just to avoid dying, but at the same time I also can't see Zombie Cat not killing Jaime. edit: Jaime lies to Cat, tells her Arya went north, Cat goes north to find Arya, we get Zombie Cat vs Zombie Jon showdown!!
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Jul 15, 2011 01:00
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Maybe for Starks the pattern holds but there's plenty of people who die without besmirching their honour. Ser Kevan, for one.
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Jul 15, 2011 01:21
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Eej posted:Maybe for Starks the pattern holds but there's plenty of people who die without besmirching their honour. Ser Kevan, for one. I think it's meant as "Besmirch honor" -> "Death", not "Death" -> "You besmirched your honor"
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Jul 15, 2011 01:37
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Contra Calculus posted:
Yeah, if they were just gonna kill him why leave it as a cliffhanger?
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Jul 15, 2011 01:41
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FuriousxGeorge posted:Yeah, if they were just gonna kill him why leave it as a cliffhanger? How angry would you be if ten years from now, you get Winds of Winter and it starts off with Jon's corpse being burned?
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Jul 15, 2011 01:48
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Now that I'm finished, I guess I'll throw in my two cents. Jon chapters were fairly interesting, although a lot of it blended together. I'm glad he took his duties serious though and tried to work with what he had. I'm not convinced he's dead though, of course. Dany chapters were loving awful. They all blended together in a whiny mess of Daario, "my children", and Harpies. Nothing of any importance happened in her chapters and I can't for the life of me remember anything interesting happening, besides Drogon loving everyone up in the Pit. Tyrion chapters started off great, then nosedived. I like him interacting with Griff, Aegon and the Septa. Once Penny came into it though, his chapters became mindless acrobatics games and stupid poo poo that I couldn't care less about. Theon chapters were by far some of the best chapters in the book, if not the series. It's remarkable how Martin managed to make me feel sympathy for Theon, even after he hosed up Winterfell. As creep and sick as his chapters were, they payed off great with his escape from Winterfell. Bran chapters were also really interesting and the scene where he sees Ned polishing his sword was both and  . I'm still not sure how becoming a tree will help but I'm sure TWOW will explain it all.I'm in the minority here but I loved Quentyn's chapters. He seemed like a less intelligent form of Ned and although he got hosed over in every way, I really felt bad for him. Barristan and Melisandre's chapters were superb and gave some insight on both of them. Jon Conningtons chapters were interesting too, and although Aegon is a Mary Sue, at least he gets poo poo done. In all the time Dany's been loving around, Aegon invades Westeros. The epilogue was great, although I'm going to miss Kevan. Arya, Asha, Jaime, Cersei, Vargo and Victarion all could have been left in AFFC or TWOW and I wouldn't have really noticed. Brannock posted:Quick timeline of events:
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Jul 15, 2011 01:56
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Manos del Sino posted:- Lord Manderly (rad dude extraordinaire) was conspiring with Davos to smuggle Rickon back into Westeros, right? Any idea where he was sending Davos? In AFFC, Sam chapters mention Skagos as some island purported to be filled with cannibals. Given the last lines of Davos' chapters, that seems to be where Rickon and Osha are. e: I'm not sure how Wex would have know specifically what island they sailed off to, unless he overheard them talking or something. FuriousxGeorge posted:Yeah, if they were just gonna kill him why leave it as a cliffhanger? Yeah, the cliffhanger isn't "will Jon die/will Jon live?" it's more like "Jon just got stabbed, now there's a million different things that can happen like wildling revolt, Watch revolt, Wight ressurection, Azor Azhai ressurection, etc". What the gently caress was up with Moqorro? Out of nowhere comes this insanely powerful Red Priest who has turned into some sort of charred zombie. If R'hllor/The Red Faith believe Dany is Azor Azhai, why would they want Victarion to find her? His intention is basically to turn her into a salt wife and enslave her dragons himself, which removes Dany's agency as AA or the prince that was promised or whatever. Speaking of prophecy, Qaithe mentions seeing a man with "one eye sailing a sea surrounded by ten white arms" or something similar. At first I thought this might connect to Euron, but Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Crow has one eye, as well, and is coursed through with weirwood roots. Or it could be something else entirely. tin can made man fucked around with this message at 02:09 on Jul 15, 2011 |
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Jul 15, 2011 01:59
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Just finished reading the book today. Gonna echo the sentiment that Dany's chapters were really lacking. I did like most of the other characters in the book. It seems like every viewpoint in the series is meant to give us an idea of what is happening at different parts of the world. Unfortunately this just told me from the very start of the book that Tyrion was not going to meet up with Daenarys. I hated being right. I still hope that Tyrion fucks the poo poo out of Daenarys. I hope Winds of Winter will expand on the Varys/Illyrio relationship. Just a couple of bros hoping to gently caress the world. I would say that he should write short stories about them but there is no way I am giving up stories about a character named Duncan. I was disappointed that Davos didn't end up with more than three chapters. I also felt like from these past two books, more major players should have died. I half expected Tyrion to get eaten by a dragon at the end of the book, and I kind of hope that Jon's death isn't a fake-out for the AA prophecy. I feel like with how this series is developing, Daenarys could turn out to be a really cool antagonist. The Boltons are some really hosed up people. I was sympathetic for Theon way back in Clash of Kings, and now I just feel terrible for the poor guy. Barristan Selmy owns. I'm tempted to go back through the series and see how much Branwood action has been going on (as well as catch the billions of other things I've missed.) It'd also be interesting to see if the TV show made a point to show the talking Weirwoods as well. I kind of hope Stannis wins/won the siege of Winterfell, but I highly doubt it. A desire for Bolton Blood would likely keep people reading for two more books. Overall, I liked it. I feel as if a lot of stuff went over my head (as usual) but I think it'll grow on me via re-reads and discussion. Hopefully with the show and a growing fanbase Martin will have the next book out in a timely fashion. (The joke is that Martin is bad with due dates)
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Jul 15, 2011 02:15
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tin can made man posted:What the gently caress was up with Moqorro? Out of nowhere comes this insanely powerful Red Priest who has turned into some sort of charred zombie. If R'hllor/The Red Faith believe Dany is Azor Azhai, why would they want Victarion to find her? His intention is basically to turn her into a salt wife and enslave her dragons himself, which removes Dany's agency as AA or the prince that was promised or whatever. I agree with those who said Melisandre's chapter was excellent. Both in terms of stripping her apparent self-assured, utterly confident, powerful image from her and it basically being as much tricks and guesses designed to create that image, and also because it's basically a chapter where it's all basically about her actually not having that much true power, and then at the end it's revealed she actually has done some cool magic with her glamor (spelling it American-style since that's how it is in my copy, too). A great way of saying "Hey, she's not all that, but she's not a total chump, either."
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Jul 15, 2011 02:25
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tin can made man posted:In AFFC, Sam chapters mention Skagos as some island purported to be filled with cannibals. Given the last lines of Davos' chapters, that seems to be where Rickon and Osha are. Wait, when did Moqorro turn into a burned zombie? I thought that was just Victarion's hand + forearm? Also, I got the impression that the Euron has already done the necessary sacrifice so that if somebody blows the horn and dies, the dragons would still be his. However, with Moqorro's help Victarion will sacrifice someone or something so that the dragons will become his own instead. (Though I'm not sure who's going to blow it)
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Jul 15, 2011 02:29
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This is a really minor point, but why didn't Jon tell his subordinates about the loan he took out with the Iron Bank? That seems to me like it would appease them moreso than sorta lying about selling barbarian gold. Not that it mattered in the end, just something that makes me scratch my head.
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Jul 15, 2011 02:31
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Rednik posted:Wait, when did Moqorro turn into a burned zombie? I thought that was just Victarion's hand + forearm? Victarion describes him as being black - not black like a Summer Islander, but literally just black. I forget the actual phrasing. Aurubin posted:This is a really minor point, but why didn't Jon tell his subordinates about the loan he took out with the Iron Bank? That seems to me like it would appease them moreso than sorta lying about selling barbarian gold. Not that it mattered in the end, just something that makes me scratch my head. Well, he's not lying about selling the wildling stuff, and telling the Watch that they're in debt to a foreign nation would only make them angrier. I am curious as to how Jon intended to pay back the Iron Bank, though - Braavos imports all of its wood and the North/Beyond the Wall certainly has no shortage of it, but other than that I can't think of any means of income that the Watch has. e: some of those treasures are pretty drat valuable too, like a helmet made with a unicorn horn. I wonder if the Watch has any capable traders to make sure they don't get hosed over by the Braavosi?
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Jul 15, 2011 02:35
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tin can made man posted:What the gently caress was up with Moqorro? Out of nowhere comes this insanely powerful Red Priest who has turned into some sort of charred zombie. If R'hllor/The Red Faith believe Dany is Azor Azhai, why would they want Victarion to find her? His intention is basically to turn her into a salt wife and enslave her dragons himself, which removes Dany's agency as AA or the prince that was promised or whatever. It seems pretty obvious to me that Victarion is going to be played badly and probably die terribly. He is too 'simple' and straight-forward to play the Game of Thrones, and he has a personality that lets him actually get poo poo done, which means there is no way in hell he will actually marry Dany. Plus, his brother has been built up as too big a threat for Victarion to just sail back with the dragons and roast him. Everyone important in this series has a million loving prophecies and special powers attached to them, while Victarion is just some viking with a big fleet and a burnt hand. My guess is that he will be killed at the cusp of some great victory at the end of The Winds of Winter. Although I would be pleased as hell if Victarion did end up becoming a major character. After the massive shitpiles of bureaucracy and non-action that were the Daenarys chapters I found Victarion's simple "Crush their throats and throw them into the ocean as sacrifice" reasoning incredibly refreshing. He is also the easiest solution to the whole 'meereenese knot' issue since him taming the dragons and kidnapping Dany would be the fastest way to get her to Westeroes.
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Jul 15, 2011 02:50
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tin can made man posted:Victarion describes him as being black - not black like a Summer Islander, but literally just black. I forget the actual phrasing. Oh, I'm pretty sure that means he's just from Sothoros, not that he's all charred on the surface.
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Jul 15, 2011 02:53
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If you knew your house was going to be attacked by ice zombies, who will gently caress up the entire world if they make it past your house, then why not take out a second mortgage? No downside really. If you live to worry about paying it off then you won anyway.
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Jul 15, 2011 02:55
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I am roughly 100 pages into the book and mostly so far I've learned about people rolling out of bed and pissing. Then eating. Also, fat people. So much fat.
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Jul 15, 2011 03:05
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You ain't seen nothing yet 'till you feast your eyes on Lord Wyman "Four Chins" Manderly. He owns so much though.
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Jul 15, 2011 03:16
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Quentyn was such a loving doofus in this book. It makes me laugh at everyone who thought Doran Martell was some kind of subtle mastermind in AFFC. His brilliant plan was to wait 17 years after his sister's death while her killers consolidated power and also killed his brother, then send his hopelessly ordinary son with a meager 2 companions across the loving globe to somehow woo Dany and bring her dragons to Westeros? gently caress him and gently caress Dorne, the Sand Snakes should be in charge.
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Jul 15, 2011 03:41
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To be fair the original plan was to send lusciously-curved Arianne Martell to sex up Viserys, but we all know what happened to that. Doran had to make do with what he had, and besides he hadn't had much contact with Quentyn for a long time. If Quentyn had survived, he was very clearly shaping up to be like his father - given some well salting - but alas.
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Jul 15, 2011 03:43
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It would have worked if he wasn't late.
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Jul 15, 2011 03:51
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Brannock posted:To be fair the original plan was to send lusciously-curved Arianne Martell to sex up Viserys Another psychopath Targaryen on the throne then. How could that go wrong?
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Jul 15, 2011 03:51
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