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Rurutia
Jun 11, 2009
Can you explain Jon Snow and Robb Stark? Their mistakes seem to be pretty standard. Joffrey and Dany are on an entirely separate level to me.

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Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium
Okay, so there's a lot of people just now finishing the book, so I'm going to repost these Dany quotes to drive home how loving dumb she is in general and in specific when it comes to Daario:

Dany posted:

I would give up my crown if he asked it of me, Dany thought … but he had not asked it, and never would. Daario might whisper words of love when the two of them were as one, but she knew it was the dragon queen he loved. If I gave up my crown, he would not want me.
...for a sellsword captain. She'd give up her crown for a sellsword captain that has I've looked and looked and can't find or remember any instance where Dany describes a good or positive attribute of Daario's, other than his physical attributes.

Yet right before she admits that she'd give up her crown for him, she realizes that he's scum:

Dany posted:

He has a sellsword’s conscience, she realized then. That is to say, none at all.
...but still would give up everything for him.

The Ninth Layer
Jun 20, 2007

Yeah lol I did a little double-take there when she said that. I'd thought Dany was one of the more level-headed characters in the series until this book, but once I saw that line I knew she was going to be in for some serious poo poo in Dance.

But that's not terribly unrealistic either. We all know people that have dated douchebags.

Vonnegut Asterisk
Apr 14, 2007

Brandon, you put Pat White down this instant young man!
So now what I want more than anything is a Dolorous Edd point of view chapter of him being in charge of a bunch of spearwives. I need a comedy chapter after this book.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium

Toplowtech posted:

Khal Jhaqo? The guy who ran away with so twenty thousand of Drogo's raiders? Who ordered his men to rape that girl Dayneris saved and who then had them cut her throat? Yeah, fat chance. Finding Daneyris standing next to her dragon is probably going to be the last thing Jhago ever do. I guess his khalasar will need a new leader really really soon.

I posted that exact quote a few pages back, funny enough. But thanks for quoting it back to me :)

Those reasons you listed are hardly strong enough reasons for Dany not to marry someone. Remember that she just married one of the leaders of the Sons of the Harpy? The same group that's been raping, torturing, and murdering her freedmen up and down the alleys and streets of Mereen after dark?

I don't think she's going to marry Khal Jacko. It was an exaggeration to demonstrate how loving retarded she is and how I won't be surprised at any and all of the future dumb decisions she makes.

Kainser
Apr 27, 2010

O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow
Daenerys is a 14-year (maybe 15 now?) old girl in ~irrational love~. Her actions that doesn't involve Daario are usually fairly reasonable considering her age.

e; You can draw parallels between her and Robb really.

Kainser fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 15, 2011

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004

Ray_ posted:

I don't think she's going to marry Khal Jacko. It was an exaggeration to demonstrate how loving retarded she is and how I won't be surprised at any and all of the future dumb decisions she makes.
What color is Jako's beard?

SmugDogMillionaire
Oct 27, 2009

by T. Fine

Kainser posted:

Daenerys is a 14-year (maybe 15 now?) old girl in ~irrational love~. Her actions that doesn't involve Daario are usually fairly reasonable considering her age.

e; You can draw parallels between her and Robb really.

She's 16 in ADWD.

edit: she was born in 284. Joff's wedding was on the new year of 300. we're probably getting close to 301 by the end of adwd

SmugDogMillionaire fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jul 15, 2011

Toplowtech
Aug 31, 2004

SmugDogMillionaire posted:

She's 16 in ADWD.
ADWD should have been named "Daneyris Targaryen's Sweet 16" then.

Gully Foyle
Feb 29, 2008

Kainser posted:

Daenerys is a 14-year (maybe 15 now?) old girl in ~irrational love~. Her actions that doesn't involve Daario are usually fairly reasonable considering her age.

e; You can draw parallels between her and Robb really.

But Robb wasn't a POV, so you never got to hear whatever his internal justifications for his actions were. That made him a lot more tolerable. And 90% of his stupidity due to love actions happened off screen anyways.

With Dany, it was constantly there.

I'd have to say that Dany was the weakest part of the book. She had two good chapters, and the rest involved her making bad political and personal decisions in a city that no one cares about. The only part of Dany that makes her interesting are the dragons, and they were chained away or gone for almost all of her chapters.

As cool as the scene with Drogon in the fighting pits was, I think GRRM should have had him killed in front of her to realize how stupid she is being. Hopefully she never gets near the Iron Throne, because she would be absolutely terrible at ruling. As someone earlier pointed out, she didn't even know the symbol for House Martell, on of the great houses she thinks she has the right to rule (compare that to Podrick in ASOS where he learned the standard for a whole bunch of minor Dornish houses). She refuses to accept that Aerys was a terrible king every time Barristan tries to tell her.

Blah, her whole arc is so annoying. Its frustrating that 70% of this book was either her chapters or those of people trying to get to where she is, while Jaime gets his one mystery chapter and rides off with Brienne to wherever, leaving that plot line hanging for years, again.

The chapters up north were awesome on the other hand. Although Jon also makes bad decisions, he doesn't whine much anymore, and beheading Slynt was bad rear end. And Theon's chapters, though painful to read at first, gave us a good look at the evil assholes that are going to rule the North if Stannis fails. Manderly turning out to be a badass as well, that was really cool.

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

To be fair, before ADWD I was one of those who loathed Dany because GRRM was making her into such a gigantic Mary Sue who never screwed up and didn't just have plot armour, but rode around in a plot T-72 battle tank. So you'd think my hatred would have been dialed up to 11 by now, which it has, and yet...

... and yet, the way she is shaping up to be a terrible queen and a clueless politician might actually be one of the better ways for GRRM to fix that problem, without outright killing her and saying "whoops, sorry guys, the prophecy screwed up". She's still going to be Azor Ahai reborn and the PTWP and all that and she's going to bring magic back to the world ahd save the Seven Kingdoms from the others, yes... but she's also going to be an utter failure at ruling a pacified Westeros.

NecroMonster
Jan 4, 2009

Jon's problem wasn't making bad decisions. It was making good decisions while surrounded by people who thought they where bad decisions.

He probably should have done something to explain the real purpose of the Nights Watch to his unloyal brothers, he probably should have kept some of his friends close. But, Jon was making a lot of good decisions regarding fighting the Nights Watch's real foes.

Effectively, he screwed himself over by doing the right thing. But, unlike Ned, not doing the right thing would have actually screwed things over at least as hard.

Xae
Jan 19, 2005

NecroMonster posted:

Jon's problem wasn't making bad decisions. It was making good decisions while surrounded by people who thought they where bad decisions.

He probably should have done something to explain the real purpose of the Nights Watch to his unloyal brothers, he probably should have kept some of his friends close. But, Jon was making a lot of good decisions regarding fighting the Nights Watch's real foes.

Effectively, he screwed himself over by doing the right thing. But, unlike Ned, not doing the right thing would have actually screwed things over at least as hard.

I think Roose Bolton had a hand in the mutiny. Bowen Marsh was the leader of one of the forts, and Roose could have reached out to him with promises of aid and wildling killing. Then he sends a letter to Jon Snow with a mix of truth and lies, truth about the singers and Mance, but lies about defeating Stannis. He is hoping that Jon is just easily maniupated as Robb, which turns out to be correct. In truth he is being sieged and things are going badly, he is hoping that the Watch attack Melisandre or the Queen and force Stannis to withdraw.

GoodluckJonathan
Oct 31, 2003

I like the theory that Aegon is fake. He'll probably get roasted/eaten by one of Daenarys' dragons Quentyn-style. Anyone claiming to be a Targ needs to go through a trial by fire.


e: Even if Jon is dead and not coming back(doubt it, but would be a pretty grrm-ish gently caress you), he still did a pretty drat good job setting up the defenses of the Wall by beginning to re-open all the castles and manning them with wildings. Wildings know whats out there, are badasses and have access to the lore about obsidian and etc.

GoodluckJonathan fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jul 15, 2011

lapse
Jun 27, 2004

Just finished, I actually thought this book was pretty good.

I'd put it right in the middle of the series in terms of quality, something like:

1. Storm of Swords
2. Game of Thrones
3. Dance with Dragons
4. Clash of Kings
5. Feast for Crows


Really enjoyed all the poo poo in the north. Mereen wasn't even as bad as I was anticipating based on peoples' responses. I would have been okay if Quentyn and Victarian had been cut though.

Manderly was awesome, Barristan is awesome. Much better book than AFFC by a mile.



The real test will of course be whether GRRM has beaten back his writer's block and can get on with actually finishing the series in a timely fashion. Or whether the release of this book was merely forced by the huge pressure of the HBO series, his contract, whatever, and the blocks were just pushed back to book 6.

lapse fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jul 15, 2011

threeagainstfour
Jun 27, 2005


Everytime Danerys mentions Dario's gold tooth I do a weird combination laugh cringe. Dario's gold tooth is like the worst part of this book so far.

Everything else has been pretty cool though.

Especially the Theon chapters. His reminiscing about how much more grand and heroic everything seemed when he marched alongside Robb to war was particularly sad.

I knew those Ironmen were dead as gently caress even as Ramsy (that piece of poo poo) was giving orders to feed them. Yet it still hit me like a ton of bricks when Theon walked by that one Ironborn, impaled on a spike, with the parchment Theon had shown him back at the castle shoved in his mouth.

threeagainstfour fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jul 15, 2011

Genderfluid
Jun 18, 2009

my mom is a slut
The worst part of this book is how loving often grrm used the phrase "If she looked back she was lost" in dany's chapters.

9-Volt Assault
Jan 27, 2007

Beter twee tetten in de hand dan tien op de vlucht.
As much as i disliked the Dany/Tyrion chapters, the book is still better than 90% of all fantasy books out there.

GoodluckJonathan
Oct 31, 2003

The problem with Dany is that she is a brilliant tactician/warleader with loving dragons trapped in the body of a 16 year old. She has been in a lot of life threatening situations throughout the first three books and handled them very well. This has built up our expectations of her. Unfortunately none of these situations prepared her for actually ruling.

She has similar weaknesses to King Robert, really. Luckily for her she is likely to grow out of them. Or Tyrion will ~~~~~~finally~~~~~~ arrive and take control of poo poo.

lapse
Jun 27, 2004

Regarding Dany, I think the intent was to show that she hasn't grown up yet, despite everything that's happened, but it was so heavy handed and overdone that I think a lot of people are right to groan.

The thing about her though is that she has plenty of time to grow up still, unlike Cersei who we saw failing at everything, again and again, in AFFC.

Contra Calculus
Nov 6, 2009

Gravy Boat 2k
Just finished a few hours ago.

First of all: Not worth six loving years.

Jon's POV's ranged from mediocre to somewhat interesting until the very end where it ALMOST reached the quality that they had in ASoS. Spoilers: He isn't dead.

Dany's were terrible, but hers have been terrible since Drogo died anyways.

Tyrion can be summed up like this: "WAAAAAAH I HATE CERSEI WAAAAH I HATE JAIME WAAAH TYWIN LIED ABOUT TYSHA WAAAAH WOMEN ARE VAPID CUNTS." I guess the policy is once someone isn't in Westeros, they become the worst loving characters ever.

Davos- Some really good poo poo. Still not worth six loving years though.

Theon- Best stuff he's written in the series in a long loving time. It was also funny to see Theon get tortured because he is a total loving rear end in a top hat in the other books anyways.

Other random poo poo- Ranged from mildly interesting (Mel and Jaime) to boring (Arya).

So anyways, I hope everyone enjoys reading Wild Cards for the next six years eternity for when Winds of Winter comes out and features even more build-up for another book that doesn't ever come out.

edit: I still have no idea how the gently caress some of you people read this book so fast.

Contra Calculus fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 15, 2011

The Sex Cannon
Nov 22, 2004

Eh. I'm pretty content with my current logo.

Contra Calculus posted:

edit: I still have no idea how the gently caress some of you people read this book so fast.

I took the day off on Tuesday. That got me about 70% in.

bengraven
Sep 17, 2009

by VideoGames
I read the first 500 pages in a leaked document the weekend before Dance came out. I also am unemployed and my wife took my kid to work on the 12th (she works at a day care center). So I kind of had a lot of time.

Calef
Aug 21, 2007

Anybody else catch that the boat off which Tyrion, Penny and Jorah were taken by the slavers was called something which basically translates to Perfumed Seneschal?

Hannibal Rex
Feb 13, 2010

Vonnegut Asterisk posted:

So now what I want more than anything is a Dolorous Edd point of view chapter of him being in charge of a bunch of spearwives. I need a comedy chapter after this book.

I'm totally down with that, as long as it's not a prologue or epilogue.

Roark
Dec 1, 2009

A moderate man - a violently moderate man.
Just finished, and I thought it was fairly solid. Not the best of the series, but not the worst by far.

Dany: Never liked her as a POV character, and I could care less about the Slaver's Bay (I get it George, you've read a book about Rome [Valyria] and Persia or Mesopotamia [Old Ghis]). Her chapters were ponderous and samey, and it seemed like the book could have done with about half of her chapters. Terrible queen, terrible politician, terrible choice of love interests, and possibly suffering from the Targ madness. Her last chapter was good, and - hopefully - she's finally figured out that it's time to start moving again.

Theon: Loved the Theon chapters, and it was good to see him as Theon again in his final chapter.

Tyrion: The parts with Penny were unpleasant, but, overall, Tyrion's chapters were what they've always been: snappy dialogue, and bitching about his relatives. It works. The Aegon and Connington reveal was nice, and I particularly enjoyed the quasi-Apocalypse Now up-river boat ride.

Davos and Melisandre: The best written portions of the book, and probably tied with the non-Jon Northern (Asha, Manderly, Theon) chapters as the ones I enjoyed the most. (I'm probably the only person who likes Stannis :()

The North: Great stuff. Manderly's ice burns to the Frey's were great, and he was written as a guy who is a master at playing the game. Unfortunately, I also pictured him as GRRM, and can't get that out of my head.

Aegon: Mary Sue and it felt a little Deus ex Machina, but at least he's a Targ who actually does something other than brood in not-Babylon. He's too perfect, and I expect GRRM to do something to him in the next book (Greyscale from his foster father? Marriage to Dany? Marriage to Stannis' daughter?)

Kainser
Apr 27, 2010

O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow
^^^Stannis owns. And yeah, GRRM should totally get a cameo as one of the Manderlys in the show.

Oh, and gently caress Ramsay. Domeric Bolton sounded like an awesome dude :(

e; It seems like I'm the only one who liked Penny. I personally think that the boatride down the river was the weakest part of Tyrion's chapters.

Kainser fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Jul 15, 2011

NihilCredo
Jun 6, 2011

iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

WEEEEEE I was right I was right on the money!

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/53609-adwd-spoilers-the-lost-lord/

quote:

at Union Square, someone tried to ask George if Jon Connington was intended to be gay. And George's response was: "I can't answer that [note: due to it having been 'no spoilers' at the Q&A], but if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, then you're correct."

(Sorry, I am more satisfied than is normal because usually I'm totally clueless while reading books.)

menino
Jul 27, 2006

Pon De Floor

regulargonzalez posted:

But in the House of the Undying vision, Rhaegar flat out says that Aegon is the PTWP, so why would he need to make PTWP 2: More Promiseder?

Just a thought: isn't it entirely possible the Undying Prophecy is simply not fated to come to pass? Didn't that happen in spectacular fashion with the Dothraki prophecy? And Mel doesn't seem to have her stuff together either. I'm not sure why Dany's visions would hold sway.

Also, my theory is that Mance wrote the letter to Jon Snow.

doctor thodt
Apr 2, 2004

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
The House of the Undying prophecies have been pretty spot-on so far.

Convicted Bibliophile
Dec 2, 2004

I am the night.

menino posted:


Also, my theory is that Mance wrote the letter to Jon Snow.

For what reason? Also, to us as the readers it oozes with the character of the Bolton Bastard. I doubt Mance would have been around him long enough to pull off such a convincing imitation.

Mister Perky
Aug 2, 2010
My first thought was that the letter Jon gets didn't even come from Winterfell or the Boltons at all.

The way it was addressed to "Bastard" and kept calling him "Bastard" had me thinking Alister Thorne, since he's hated Jon since GoT, has always called him "bastard" and knows how easily being called a Bastard baits Jon Snow into impulsive, emotional, irrational behavior (like breaking his Night's Watch Vows and storming off on foot to march hundreds of miles south on a one-man Jihad of Bolton rear end-Kicking).

The problem with my theory is the pink wax (even though it doesn't have the Bolton flayed man logo in it) and Thorne knowing about Ramsay Bolton having a household servant called Reek, because he can't have the wax or know of Reek unless he's had past dealings/communication with the Boltons [which we haven't seen, though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened; Thorne was pretty invisible in ADWD after all]. But he'd know or could easily find out about the rest [Stannis' magic sword, Mance Rayder being sent off to rescue "Arya".] And Thorne's had too much open animosity to not have at least some tie to the conspiracy to kill Jon, and he's not out there with a knife. He makes sense as the mastermind and as the man who stands the most to gain by being elected Lord-Commander after Jon's death. Also, the letter just happens to arrive at Just The Right Time, which is much easier if it's flying along the wall than north from Winterfell.

team overhead smash
Sep 2, 2006

Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Just been thinking about Aemon a bit.

Aemon is either real or fake and I don't have any real evidence to point to him being fake, but if he is then GRRM won't have pulled him from thin air, knowing him he'll have foreshadowed this somewhere in the books. Ashara's baby is the only baby that would presumably have Targ colourings and would born at the right time to be of age with Aemon, so I think there's a possibility that it was baby Dayne rather than Aemon who had the fake death.

Following this though if Aemon is fake and is actually baby Dayne all grown up, this means that rather than being a secret-Targ he could actually be a secret-Stark.

Edit: Also Manderly is a GRRM self-insertion.

team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jul 16, 2011

Rednik
Apr 10, 2005


Mister Perky posted:

My first thought was that the letter Jon gets didn't even come from Winterfell or the Boltons at all.

The way it was addressed to "Bastard" and kept calling him "Bastard" had me thinking Alister Thorne, since he's hated Jon since GoT, has always called him "bastard" and knows how easily being called a Bastard baits Jon Snow into impulsive, emotional, irrational behavior (like breaking his Night's Watch Vows and storming off on foot to march hundreds of miles south on a one-man Jihad of Bolton rear end-Kicking).

The problem with my theory is the pink wax (even though it doesn't have the Bolton flayed man logo in it) and Thorne knowing about Ramsay Bolton having a household servant called Reek, because he can't have the wax or know of Reek unless he's had past dealings/communication with the Boltons [which we haven't seen, though that doesn't mean it hasn't happened; Thorne was pretty invisible in ADWD after all]. But he'd know or could easily find out about the rest [Stannis' magic sword, Mance Rayder being sent off to rescue "Arya".] And Thorne's had too much open animosity to not have at least some tie to the conspiracy to kill Jon, and he's not out there with a knife. He makes sense as the mastermind and as the man who stands the most to gain by being elected Lord-Commander after Jon's death. Also, the letter just happens to arrive at Just The Right Time, which is much easier if it's flying along the wall than north from Winterfell.

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense, as I proposed on the previous page, that it's simply a misled Ramsay who wrote the letter? There's no way Mel or Thorne would know about Reek. I think the Manderlys and Stannis played Ramsay for a fool and passed along the sword and claims of a 7-day battle. The letter being Thorne's is far too circuitous a scheme when the plotters already have an abundance of opportunities and reasons to stab Jon Snow.

Kainser
Apr 27, 2010

O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow
What's going on around Winterfell is just so incredibly vague. Didn't the Banker say that the only people left in Winterfell were the Umber-dude and a few men at arms waiting for Stannis? Did they switch side or something? :iiam:

Convicted Bibliophile
Dec 2, 2004

I am the night.
Did Manderly have the Freys baked into pies?

Slackarius
Jul 30, 2006
Master of Slackery

Silas the Mariner posted:

Did Manderly have the Freys baked into pies?

I don't know, but vengeful fat man is awesome! That'll teach you to violate guest right and come up with such a blatant reasoning as "He Turned into a WOLF!!!"

Roark
Dec 1, 2009

A moderate man - a violently moderate man.

Silas the Mariner posted:

Did Manderly have the Freys baked into pies?

Yes, it's somewhat hinted at.

FuriousxGeorge
Aug 8, 2007

We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

Calef posted:

Anybody else catch that the boat off which Tyrion, Penny and Jorah were taken by the slavers was called something which basically translates to Perfumed Seneschal?

There was also reference to a Lord Seneschal of Highgarden.

quote:

Garth of House Tyrell, called the Gross, is Lord Seneschal of Highgarden. He has two bastard sons, Garse and Garrett Flowers.

Flowers=perfume.

Roark posted:

Yes, it's somewhat hinted at.

I missed that, what was the hint?

FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jul 16, 2011

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SmugDogMillionaire
Oct 27, 2009

by T. Fine

FuriousxGeorge posted:

I missed that, what was the hint?

It's mainly his demeanor about the pies combined with the fact that that he requests The Rat Cook to be played.

The Rat Cook is about a guy who killed a prince and served him to his farther.

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