Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007
What makes Lyanna a stronger candidate to have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree than, say, Howland Reed himself?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Barrakketh
Apr 19, 2011

Victory and defeat are the same. I urge you to act but not to reflect on the fruit of the act. Seek detachment. Fight without desire.

Don't withdraw into solitude. You must act. Yet action mustn't dominate you. In the heart of action you must remain free from all attachment.
Finished the book 30 minutes ago after, feeling very... ambivalent, almost cheated, actually. The first third of the book I devoured because of my man-crush for Stannis and :black101:JUSTICE:black101: poo poo was getting done because Stannis has no time for your jibba jabba. The plot was moving forward briskly and tightly, but I could feel it. I could literally feel the point where GRRM put his pen down and said "gently caress".

I lost patience with most of the POVs outside of the North, Particularly Tyrion. Towards the end I was skimming paragraphs, just reading the dialogue. Jorah's return, a favourite character in the past, evoked nothing more than a "Isn't that nice" from me.

The Meereen chapters were just bad writing. I felt so frustrated with Dany's flippant dismissal of the Martells. "Finally," I thought, "We can leave this poo poo-hole of a city behind." NOPE.

I think I'm going to stop here and stew on my thoughts some more.

Barrakketh fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jul 16, 2011

dumb brunette
Mar 17, 2009

I admire man's ability to see beauty in everything! Even a flame!
Belatedly, regarding chapters that got moved to TWOW, I'm also fairly sure there was originally intended to be one more Bran chapter that must have gotten moved, whether for space reasons or timeline reasons. My wager is that it's Bran watching the battle for Winterfell through some warg eyes, whether it's the tree or one of Bloodraven's crows, and that GRRM decided to let that plot thread hang so we wouldn't be sure what to make of Ramsay's letter.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

MeerkatHero posted:

What makes Lyanna a stronger candidate to have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree than, say, Howland Reed himself?

Height, having any skill at jousting, financial resources to procure a suit of armor, narrative purpose to give Rhaegar a reason to fall for Lyanna.

kcroy
May 30, 2002

by Nyc_Tattoo

MeerkatHero posted:

What makes Lyanna a stronger candidate to have been the Knight of the Laughing Tree than, say, Howland Reed himself?

He could barely ride a horse, wasn't trained in that type of warfare, etc.

Also, I think it suggests a story where Rhaegar goes looking for the mystery knight, discovers who it is, and falls in love... spurring him to name Lyanna the Queen of the ...whatever I don't remember.

And it is likely that Lyanna ( as did Arya ) would have learned weapons on the sly, even though it wasn't "appropriate" for a young lady. Also explains Neds reaction when he finds Arya with the sword.. anger and compassion and even a bit of sadness.

I'm sure GRRM could make it into being anyone he wanted, but the way the story was original told, it fit into the puzzle very nicely.

^^^^ drat you and your succinctly accurate explanation.

dumb brunette
Mar 17, 2009

I admire man's ability to see beauty in everything! Even a flame!

keiran_helcyan posted:

Height, having any skill at jousting, narrative purpose to give Rhaegar a reason to fall for Lyanna.

Also, Jojen asking Bran several times during the course of the story if he was sure Ned hadn't told him this before. Why would he be so sure Ned would tell about something Howland did?

Brannock posted:

Hang on a sec, I just realized something: War of the Three Queens - Queen Margaery on the Iron Throne and all the power of the West vs. Queen Arianne from Dorne with the power of the Golden Company and the East vs. Queen Daenerys and her dragons. I really don't think Myrcella is going to be the third queen in this equation.

Petyr was the one who coined the phrase "war of the three queens" and was specifically referring to Sansa being crowned as Queen in the North when he unveils her. I don't think anyone is factoring in Dany.

EDIT: He was also referring to Cersei vs. Margaery so really it's shaping up to be the War of Five (or more) Queens to follow up on the War of Five Kings and Petyr, for once, hasn't taken everything into account.

dumb brunette fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jul 16, 2011

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.
I think the Mereen chapters were ultimately a huge troll wherein GRRM lays out an argument against the abolition of slavery.

Ray_
Sep 15, 2005

It was like the Colosseum in Rome and we were the Christians." - Bobby Dodd, on playing at LSU's Tiger Stadium

dumb brunette posted:

Also, Jojen asking Bran several times during the course of the story if he was sure Ned hadn't told him this before. Why would he be so sure Ned would tell about something Howland did?


Petyr was the one who coined the phrase "war of the three queens" and was specifically referring to Sansa being crowned as Queen in the North when he unveils her. I don't think anyone is factoring in Dany.

I don't know, I wouldn't be surprised if Littlefinger had knowledge of Dany and what's going on. Gulltown is his place, his business is trade, and he makes a point to learn EVERYTHING.
THe council scene in ADWD has them mentioning Dany and her dragons, and that doesn't take place long after Littlefinger's conversation with Sansa I think. Whatever the small council knows, you better believe that Littlefinger knew it a year before.

Midnight-
Aug 22, 2007

Pain or damage don't end the world, or despair, or fuckin' beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man - and give some back.
It's not Dany or Aegon that's going to gently caress with Littlefinger's plan the most anyway - It's Rickon or Jon (being resurrected and freed from his oath and then being confirmed as legitimate, either by Stannis' order from Robbs previous order).

Though we know from the previous books that the forces in the Vale wanted to rally and declare for Robb anyway so we have to assume they'd do the same anyways.

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008
Finished it. Liked it much, much better than Feast, about as much as Clash except for Blackwater, not as much as Game or Storm. If it had ended with a bigass climax ala Clash I'd have been even happier, but even so I really enjoyed it.

I loved pretty much all the stuff in the north. Jon, Davos, Theon, Asha/Stannis, Bran...all of this poo poo was pure gold. The Manderlies are loving awesome. Bran has never been this cool in any other book--I especially loved the Coldhands stuff, but really all of it was pretty great. I knew I was gonna like the Jon plot from the Janos beheading onward, and I did, although I don't believe for a moment he's really dead.

Really liked the earlier stuff on the Eastern continent, up to about the midpoint of the book, then felt it lost steam. Still not sure what the point of Quentyn was, and Meereen in general is pretty weaksauce. I did like the way Dany's relationships with her dragons evolved though.

Daario was annoying, but I expect if we'd had a Robb POV while he was loving everything up with Jeyne Westerling, we'd have found that just as infuriating. I didn't think it devalued her character or made me respect her less, I just took it as one of the many, many otherwise talented and capable people who make really loving stupid decisions when it comes to love. Hell, Tyrion's just as stupid, and infinitely creepier, when it comes to Shae and nobody gets on him about that.

I really liked both the prologue and the epilogue. Obviously Varys returning was awesome, but the insights into Wargs were cool as well.

The Others/Wights continue to be a lot scarier than zombies have any right to be. The scene of Bran/Hodor (Who I now call Brodor) trying to cross to the cave and then coming up from under...creepy poo poo. As was the description of the dead things in the water.

The Boltons are really good villains. Ramsay's pathetic brand of creepiness, and Roose's psychotic brand of parenting, make them seem like a sitcom from some alternate dimension of pure evil.

I wasn't sold on Jon Connington at first, but I really dug him once we got his POV. Aegon didn't impress me too much, but then I suspect he was never intended to by Martin--if Dany and Jon's plotlines this book taught us anything, its that the noble young person of great destiny doesn't necessarily make for a great ruler, and Aegon is even less experienced than they. Plus, I think he's probably a fake.

I enjoyed Tyrion on the river, but the slavery thing felt like a detour, a way to keep him from meeting Dany until Martin's ready.

Overall like I said I'd rank it about on par with all of Clash except for the Blackwater, definitely above Feast. I really did enjoy it a lot, and there are some characters and scenes in this book that have instantly vaulted pretty high up on my list of personal favorites.

All that said, more stuff happened here than Feast...but, much like Clash, this still had the feel of setup. Of course, all that setup in Clash built to the awesomeness that was Storm, which in hindsight makes Clash seem stronger. If the next book sees poo poo really hitting the fan ala Storm, I suspect I'll regard Dance as fondly as I do Clash...

But if we get another book of setup after this, then the issues I had with Dance will be further exacerbated.

Basically, this felt very much like one piece of a larger story. For the most part, it was a piece I enjoyed a lot. But ultimately my opinion of it will depend on how the larger story ultimately is resolved (if it is at all...). If Book 6 is like Storm 2.0, proving payoff for all the Chekhov's guns in Feast and Dance, thats all well and good. If book 6 is more Meereenese politics and Brienne dicking around, not so much.

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008
That said, I will agree with Martin on one thing...

One way or another, the story of this period had to be told. Maybe it could have had less Brienne, and the Ironborn could have easily been cut down to one POV, and the Dorne stuff could have been cut a bit...

But by and large, most of this was not timeskippable stuff. If book 4 had started up, "Its several years later. Jon was stabbed to death, Dany is down to one dragon and no army, Aegon is back and invading, Stannis may or may not be dead fighting the Boltons, Bran is a super warg and Arya is a super assassin and Sam's probably learning wizard poo poo in oldtown, etc. etc."

I, and I think nearly every other fan of the books, would have absolutely called bullshit on that as the next step following Storm. As it is, I bought it. I buy Jon and Dany's respective downfalls, and the various levels in badass the other kids are taking, and even the Aegon thing. But thats only because Martin put the reader in there and shows us how it happened.

If he just skipped ahead so that Book 4 began where Book 6 now will? No, that wouldn't have worked at all, he was definitely right about that.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007

keiran_helcyan posted:

Height, having any skill at jousting, financial resources to procure a suit of armor, narrative purpose to give Rhaegar a reason to fall for Lyanna.

I really like the idea - it never occurred to me before it was brought up in this thread - and I want to buy it but I'm not sure. Narrative purpose to give Rhaegar a reason to fall for Lyanna isn't something I think is required. We already know that Elia of Dorne is not considered swooningly attractive, and we already know that Lyanna is sufficiently attractive to have preoccupied Robert's attention.
We do see a brief and mild suggestion of R+L during the feast when everyone's drinking, dancing, making eyes at each other, etc., when Lyanna cries (okay, "sniffled") over the sad song Rhaegar sings.

The issues of height and availability of armor don't rule Howland out, as "the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces". Those pieces he could've borrowed from Benjen, the "pup" who offered the loan of horse and armor; the crannogman "thanked him, but gave no answer", i.e., didn't refuse the offer. He went to pray on it, instead, to the same gods whose likeness the Knight of the Laughing Tree subsequently (consequently?) takes for his impresa. It's to these northern powers that Meera seems to credit the Knight's success / the answering of the crannogman's prayer ("the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?" doesn't suggest any wolves or new friends). There is the matter of skill at jousting, but Lyanna's fighting skill has been framed as analogous to Arya's. It's easier to arrange for fencing lessons than it is to arrange for practice at tilting, a pretty conspicuous activity, unless Rickard Stark was even more supportive of women taking up the arts of war than was Ned.

Why does Jojen think Ned must have told Bran him the story? Ned, the "quiet wolf" whose tentmate the little crannogman becomes, would have to know about the Knight's identity if the Knight were Howland. (He's also Howland Reed's comrade in arms later on, notably at the Tower of Joy from which they're both the only ones to return. Reed is not an insignificant figure in Ned's life.) It's both a chivalric folktale and a piece of Ned's personal history, which might make it an especially apt tale for Ned to tell his sons. While it doesn't seem likely that Jojen would expect his father's past to be an important part of the Stark children's education, it also doesn't seem likely that Jojen would expect Ned Stark to tell R+L=J bedtime stories. So I'm on the fence, there.

So yeah, I like the idea that Lyanna is the Knight. But I'm not completely convinced. I am going to sound like a :tinfoil: here, but given the weirwood material in ADwD, it seems likeliest to me that the Bloodraven warged into Howland Reed by invitation/prayer and allowed him to kick rear end in the joust using borrowed horse and armor. The impresa of the weirwood would then be a very literal sign of the Knight's identity.

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008
also, rereading the prologue and its explanations of how wargs escape death, right after reading the last Jon chapter where he thinks of Ghost, plus that vision Mel sees of him turning into a wolf and back again, would seem to make his fate a little *too* obvious. I dunno if he'll get his own body back again, but one way or another it does seem clear he'll be stashing his soul in Ghost for the time being.

Revenant Threshold
Jan 1, 2008
I had a thought about one of the Melisandre prophecies. I think it's fair to say that the whole "Drat, i'm trying to bring up Azor Ahai but this darn Snow kid keeps coming up!" business is way too on the nose. But there's something of an interesting point in terms of character vs. reader knowledge with one of the other prophecies - when she comes up with the girl escaping to Winterfell, she guesses that it's Arya. I don't know about anyone else, but at that point, with what else had been going on, my assumption was that she was wrong and in fact it was Jeyne Poole, given that she's actually a replacement for her. And then it turns out to have been Alys Karstark. It's an interesting way to get the reader in on the mistaken interpretations, and show how easy it is - even with even greater knowledge, on that point, than Melisandre - to utterly get the wrong end of the stick, despite how obvious it might seem.

Indifferent
Nov 26, 2004

I think Cersei will claw her way back into power at King's Landing before too long. With Kevan and Pycelle dead, only the Tyrells stand in her way, and they could be on the way out depending on the outcome of Margery's trial.

With Robert motherraping Strong as her champion, she should win any trial by combat that may occur. I don't doubt for a second that the "new" humble and chastised Cersei was anything but an act, she even got in a nice little diss on Kevan's wife in the epilogue. I wouldn't be shocked to see an even crazier, more pissed off Cersei calling the shots again soon in King's Landing.

dumb brunette
Mar 17, 2009

I admire man's ability to see beauty in everything! Even a flame!
This is the thing I'm confused about, actually. The church has admitted that there's not enough real evidence to take Margaery to task. The men Cersei had confess have all buckled under questioning, Margaery and her cousins have been firm in maintaining their innocence, and the only one left who says he slept with Margaery is that bard who's half crazy and the church has said they think can't be trusted. Can Margaery still be put to a trial by combat even if it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that Cersei made up all the charges?

Master Kush
Aug 8, 2007

So let me get this strait. George made a football bet and lost so he had to write in a pats fan. The pats fan, Ser "Pat"rek, was the guy who got the poo poo beat out of him by the giant (his favorite team). Good one George!

FuriousxGeorge
Aug 8, 2007

We've been the best team all year.

They're just finding out.

dumb brunette posted:

This is the thing I'm confused about, actually. The church has admitted that there's not enough real evidence to take Margaery to task. The men Cersei had confess have all buckled under questioning, Margaery and her cousins have been firm in maintaining their innocence, and the only one left who says he slept with Margaery is that bard who's half crazy and the church has said they think can't be trusted. Can Margaery still be put to a trial by combat even if it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that Cersei made up all the charges?

She doesn't want the trial by combat, just a church trial. (Because they know they have no evidence and there is an army outside the city)

Cersei wants the trial by combat because she is guilty as hell. In retrospect it isn't a very good system. :P

e: and yeah these are separate trials.

FuriousxGeorge fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jul 17, 2011

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

MeerkatHero posted:

So yeah, I like the idea that Lyanna is the Knight. But I'm not completely convinced.

Dude, it's a fantasy book series, not a CSI investigation where we can use genetic testing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lyanna Stark was the true Knight.

If anything ADWD further strengthens the argument that Lyanna was the knight, because in our tree flashback of her she's once against acting boyish and beating up on her little brother. Lyanna was like Arya, she looked like her, and enjoyed playing the fighter.

The narrative goes: Lyanna stands up for Howland (her father's vassal), fights in the tourney (we know she liked boyish things, we know from Brienne that in tourney armor a woman can disguise herself and her voice as a man pretty well), wins and demands justice for her vassal, and then disappears. Rhaegar is dispatched to find the missing knight by Aerys, he discovers a beautiful warrior woman who fights for what is right, and later Rhaegar names her Queen of Love and Beauty for a good reason instead of just a lark.

The entire story of Game of Thrones can be thought of as starting at the Harennhal tourney. Rhaegar and Lyanna fall for one another, kick off Robert's Rebellion, and give birth to the child who seems destined to become The Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai.

The whole chapter-long flashback takes on a lot bigger significance if it gives us the origin of R+L=J rather than just a cool adventure Howland once went on.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007

keiran_helcyan posted:

Dude, it's a fantasy book series, not a CSI investigation where we can use genetic testing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lyanna Stark was the true Knight.

WHATEVER DO YOU MEAN :catelyn:

keiran_helcyan posted:

The whole chapter-long flashback takes on a lot bigger significance if it gives us the origin of R+L=J rather than just a cool adventure Howland once went on.

See, I think it has a much bigger significance than that, given that it's a story told to Bran, if it's a story not about R+L=J but about what Bran is going to / could possibly do and become.

not joseph stalin
Dec 30, 2008
Bael the Bard was a king beyond the wall who went south to steal a Stark daughter. Mance named himself Abel. Bael => Abel. Pretty cool.

Subvisual Haze
Nov 22, 2003

The building was on fire and it wasn't my fault.

not joseph stalin posted:

Bael the Bard was a king beyond the wall who went south to steal a Stark daughter. Mance named himself Abel. Bael => Abel. Pretty cool.

Oh goddammit, how did I miss that one?

regulargonzalez
Aug 18, 2006
UNGH LET ME LICK THOSE BOOTS DADDY HULU ;-* ;-* ;-* YES YES GIVE ME ALL THE CORPORATE CUMMIES :shepspends: :shepspends: :shepspends: ADBLOCK USERS DESERVE THE DEATH PENALTY, DON'T THEY DADDY?
WHEN THE RICH GET RICHER I GET HORNIER :a2m::a2m::a2m::a2m:

dumb brunette posted:

Can Margaery still be put to a trial by combat even if it becomes overwhelmingly obvious that Cersei made up all the charges?

The answer is yes so that we get to see a hideously burnt Loras Tyrell defending his sister's honor. Too Martinesque of a scene not to make its way into WoW (and drat is that going to be an annoying acronym).

Lenin Stimpy
Sep 9, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Any idea what patchface might be referring to when he says "Under the sea, the merman feast on starfish soup and all the serving men are crabs."?

Merman would be manderly, but what about the starfish and serving men?

Revenant Threshold
Jan 1, 2008
I was under the impression that it's not Cersei vs. Margaery (or their champions, anyway) in the trial. It's Cersei vs. "the state", or the crown, or whatever, since her (important) crimes weren't against Margaery. Margaery's trial is something entirely seperate, also against "the state".

SmugDogMillionaire
Oct 27, 2009

by T. Fine

Master Kush posted:

So let me get this strait. George made a football bet and lost so he had to write in a pats fan. The pats fan, Ser "Pat"rek, was the guy who got the poo poo beat out of him by the giant (his favorite team). Good one George!

Pat is the name of the guy he lost the bet to (pat5150 on the westeros.org boards). Pat's team is the Dallas Cowboys. Ser Patrek's sigil is a blue star, the symbol of the Dallas Cowboys

SmugDogMillionaire fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jul 17, 2011

cosmic gumbo
Mar 26, 2005

IMA
  1. GRIP
  2. N
  3. SIP

SmugDogMillionaire posted:

Pat is the name of the guy he lost the bet to (pat5150 on the westeros.org boards). Pat's team is the Dallas Cowboys. Ser Patrek's sigil is a blue star, the symbol of the Dallas Cowboys

Was his sigil a blue star? I only ask because of the prophecy "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post
finished it today. Entertaining in some parts, boring in others. Really inefficient and needlessly sprawling narrative, overuse of cliffhangers. Finding it increasingly difficult to care about most of the book's characters. Better than AFFC, worse than the others

edit: Honestly, now that I think of it, basically every PoV ended on a cliffhanger or question mark of a sort.

Jaime - Goes off with Brienne, Sansa has been taken by the hound? Except probably not?
Bran - Starting to train? Safe, maybe not? His friends probably going to die in the snow? Summer possibly going to be murdered by a warg ghost?
Davos - Going off somewhere? Who knows?
Jon - Dead possibly? Melisandre going to breathe life into him, or going to live out his life as Ghost?
Cersei - Going to seize power again? Maybe not?
Stannis / Asha / Theon - Dead and in pieces in the snow somewhere? Maybe not?
Dany - going to feed a khalasar to her dragon? hopefully going to get shot with an arrow before Drogon can react?
Manse - dead? probably not? who knows?
Barristan - probably going to die when a plague corpse lands on him?

Basically the only characters we know about to any degree of certainty are Aegon, Victarion, Varys, and Arya. Someone ought to notify the fat man that "WHAT HAPPEN TO OUR HERO?? TUNE IN SAME BAT TIME, SAME BAT CHANNEL" loses its effect when it's the only way you know to build dramatic tension. ALso when you use the same gimmick for five thousand-page books.


literallyincredible posted:

That said, I will agree with Martin on one thing...

One way or another, the story of this period had to be told. Maybe it could have had less Brienne, and the Ironborn could have easily been cut down to one POV, and the Dorne stuff could have been cut a bit...

But by and large, most of this was not timeskippable stuff. If book 4 had started up, "Its several years later. Jon was stabbed to death, Dany is down to one dragon and no army, Aegon is back and invading, Stannis may or may not be dead fighting the Boltons, Bran is a super warg and Arya is a super assassin and Sam's probably learning wizard poo poo in oldtown, etc. etc."

I, and I think nearly every other fan of the books, would have absolutely called bullshit on that as the next step following Storm. As it is, I bought it. I buy Jon and Dany's respective downfalls, and the various levels in badass the other kids are taking, and even the Aegon thing. But thats only because Martin put the reader in there and shows us how it happened.

If he just skipped ahead so that Book 4 began where Book 6 now will? No, that wouldn't have worked at all, he was definitely right about that.

If he was a better storyteller a lot of this stuff could easily be in a gap. Some of it deserves narrative focus, but a lot of it could be related indirectly through dialogue and inference. Of course, that would leave a lot less page space for the details of guys warging out to get hosed by wolves, rape and torture porn, travelogues, and Dany's indecisive waffling and whining, so I guess it's just not possible

hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jul 17, 2011

lapse
Jun 27, 2004

literallyincredible posted:

That said, I will agree with Martin on one thing...

One way or another, the story of this period had to be told. Maybe it could have had less Brienne, and the Ironborn could have easily been cut down to one POV, and the Dorne stuff could have been cut a bit...

But by and large, most of this was not timeskippable stuff. If book 4 had started up, "Its several years later. Jon was stabbed to death, Dany is down to one dragon and no army, Aegon is back and invading, Stannis may or may not be dead fighting the Boltons, Bran is a super warg and Arya is a super assassin and Sam's probably learning wizard poo poo in oldtown, etc. etc."

I, and I think nearly every other fan of the books, would have absolutely called bullshit on that as the next step following Storm. As it is, I bought it. I buy Jon and Dany's respective downfalls, and the various levels in badass the other kids are taking, and even the Aegon thing. But thats only because Martin put the reader in there and shows us how it happened.

If he just skipped ahead so that Book 4 began where Book 6 now will? No, that wouldn't have worked at all, he was definitely right about that.


You are assuming 100% of the stuff we read in AFFC and ADWD would have been flashbacks. I think for most of these events, we still would have seen them happen, just with older characters. And others would have just been glossed over or omitted. (Like Brienne's search. That's a plotline where flashbacks would have worked fine because honestly who cares)

The gap was intended to allow Sam, Bran, and Arya to start their training. The rest of the plot movements could easily have been mostly delayed. Victarian gets lost at sea, the sellsword companies get into a protracted war, Dany sits on her rear end in Meereen, the war in Westeros dies down for a few years, etc.

The way it is now, it's going to be even less believable when they start using their superpowers that took 1 year to learn.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



MeerkatHero posted:

See, I think it has a much bigger significance than that, given that it's a story told to Bran, if it's a story not about R+L=J but about what Bran is going to / could possibly do and become.
Did you really read Bran going "Well duh, it was Howland Reed" and go "oh yeah, that totally makes sense, and won't be ironically subverted because GRRM never does that"?

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008
there's no way a 5 year timeskip works with the Jon plot. Jon's entire plotline is based around events that grow immediately out of the end of storm, and none of them, from Mance's death to dealing with the wildlings to the growing other threat, are things that any of the characters involved would or even could delay for a few years.

Comrade Flynn
Jun 1, 2003

Just finished. Pretty much had the same opinion as everyone else. I'm pretty concerned Martin has become Robert Jordan Jr. and no longer has any idea how to move the plot forward in a meaningful way. I think he could have satisfied a lot of people if the last chapter with Dany, instead of ending on an ambiguous note, had her taking out the trebuchets on the back of Drogon, then telling everyone to pack their poo poo because they are headed to Westeros. There - now we have something to look forward to in the next book. Instead we have probably another 5 chapters of her diddling around.

Also tired of him introducing new characters that don't do anything. As someone else mentioned, Asha's entire plot was told in Bolton's letter. Quentyn could have had two chapters: him showing up and getting denied by Dany, and then him trying to tame the dragon.

I'm really hoping either HBO forces a real editor on to him, or he dies and Brandon Sanderson takes over.

theblackw0lf
Apr 15, 2003

"...creating a vision of the sort of society you want to have in miniature"

Comrade Flynn posted:

Just finished. Pretty much had the same opinion as everyone else. I'm pretty concerned Martin has become Robert Jordan Jr. and no longer has any idea how to move the plot forward in a meaningful way. I think he could have satisfied a lot of people if the last chapter with Dany, instead of ending on an ambiguous note, had her taking out the trebuchets on the back of Drogon, then telling everyone to pack their poo poo because they are headed to Westeros. There - now we have something to look forward to in the next book. Instead we have probably another 5 chapters of her diddling around.

Also tired of him introducing new characters that don't do anything. As someone else mentioned, Asha's entire plot was told in Bolton's letter. Quentyn could have had two chapters: him showing up and getting denied by Dany, and then him trying to tame the dragon.

I'm really hoping either HBO forces a real editor on to him, or he dies and Brandon Sanderson takes over.

I'm nervous Martin doesn't have the indepth notes that Jordan left, which has helped make Sanderson's WoT so good.

Comrade Flynn
Jun 1, 2003

theblackw0lf posted:

I'm nervous Martin doesn't have the indepth notes that Jordan left, which has helped make Sanderson's WoT so good.

I'm pretty sure I remember hearing before that Martin had said on his death, all his notes were to be destroyed. Not sure if he was joking around or what, but he's a big enough rear end in a top hat that I believe it.

Although I'd have to imagine that's changed since HBO spent $100 million.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007

Xander77 posted:

Did you really read Bran going "Well duh, it was Howland Reed" and go "oh yeah, that totally makes sense, and won't be ironically subverted because GRRM never does that"?

Yes! Also, Stannis is Azor Ahai.

Seriously (as serious as GRRMplottalk can be), if Brynden Rivers / "the last greenseer" was able to answer Howland Reed's prayer and use his body to defeat the mean guys in the tournament, this would be a story directly relevant to Bran. Who can warg into Summer and Hodor. And who wants more than anything to be a knight, and is instead a cripple who doesn't know yet what all this greenseer stuff is supposed to be good for.

Put this together with the Varamyr Sixskins prologue in ADWD and the Bran chapter where he first sees and speaks through the weirwood, and I think there may be some temptation for Bran down the road.

There's already plenty of R+L=J significance to the tourney at Harrenhal, in various POVs and in Meera's story itself, without needing to identify the Knight of the Laughing Tree as Lyanna.

dumb brunette
Mar 17, 2009

I admire man's ability to see beauty in everything! Even a flame!

Comrade Flynn posted:

I'm pretty sure I remember hearing before that Martin had said on his death, all his notes were to be destroyed. Not sure if he was joking around or what, but he's a big enough rear end in a top hat that I believe it.

Although I'd have to imagine that's changed since HBO spent $100 million.

He said this because he was friends with Robert Jordan and resented when nerds decided to attack him using the death of somebody he knew personally as a motivator. It was still a baby tantrum to throw but now that poo poo has passed I doubt it was meant seriously.

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008

quote:

Also tired of him introducing new characters that don't do anything. As someone else mentioned, Asha's entire plot was told in Bolton's letter. Quentyn could have had two chapters: him showing up and getting denied by Dany, and then him trying to tame the dragon.

Not sure if I agree with the "all the new characters suck" thing. For one thing, most of the "new" characters people dislike aren't new. Asha/Victarion are POV characters from previous books. Quentyn is new in a sense, but he's also basically the direct continuation of a Feast plot.

Who else? Well, Penny and all the Tyrion-slavery characters are weak. So are most of the Meereenese, but again the worst of those (Daario) is not, in fact, a new character.

But the Manderlys? Awesome. Jon Connington? Once we got into his head, he was awesome. Aegon is not awesome, but I suspect that is very much the point. Bloodraven/3 eyed crow? Awesome. And while spending more time with Asha/Victarion didn't make them more interesting, the Theon stuff with the Boltons was great.

and the POVs that gave us new insight into characters we've only seen in limited roles before, aka Barristan and Melisandre? Awesome.

Non-Theon Ironborn suck, as do non-Oberyn Dornishmen, as do the Meereenese. Everyone else, characters both new and old, were pretty cool.

Lagomorph Legion
Jul 26, 2007

Comrade Flynn posted:

Just finished. Pretty much had the same opinion as everyone else. I'm pretty concerned Martin has become Robert Jordan Jr. and no longer has any idea how to move the plot forward in a meaningful way.

This. This was my reaction exactly. Especially with regard to just about any Essos-related chapter.

literallyincredible
Oct 23, 2008

quote:

He said this because he was friends with Robert Jordan and resented when nerds decided to attack him using the death of somebody he knew personally as a motivator. It was still a baby tantrum to throw but now that poo poo has passed I doubt it was meant seriously.

Yeah if someone said something to me to the effect of "you better not gently caress your job up like your good friend did by dying" I'd likely tell them to gently caress themselves as well.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice

theblackw0lf posted:

I'm nervous Martin doesn't have the indepth notes that Jordan left, which has helped make Sanderson's WoT so good.

Sanderson works great for finishing up Wheel of Time. But GRRM is way to rapey and creepy for Sanderson.

Thoguh fucked around with this message at 04:47 on Jul 17, 2011

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply