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literallyincredible posted:Yeah if someone said something to me to the effect of "you better not gently caress your job up like your good friend did by dying" I'd likely tell them to gently caress themselves as well. I doubt it was meant in an insulting way. The guy is a morbidly obese 62 year old. He said he won't start on the next book until 2012. I know we joke about him dying, but I honestly would be surprised if he lived long enough to finish the next book. I can't imagine the odds are in his favor.
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Jul 17, 2011 04:23
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quote:“Ten more years should do it,” Tollett replied in his usual gloomy tone. “Place was overrun with Best passage in the book? Yes. Dolorous Edd 
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Jul 17, 2011 04:27
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I remember reading something about Bran the builder having blue eyes. Did I imagine that?
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Jul 17, 2011 04:32
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quote:I'm nervous Martin doesn't have the indepth notes that Jordan left, which has helped make Sanderson's WoT so good. But the dialogue is the main thing. Martin can write a chapter that is literally nothing but a conversation (like all the Davos chapters in Dance) and it can really, really work. Nobody else in fantasy can pull that off consistently. I suspect it has something to do with Gurm's long career as a screenwriter, because writing for TV well is 95% writing good dialogue. If he dies, I hope the showrunners finish it because the show is a drat good thing in its own right. But I actually don't want another author trying to do their best Martin impression. literallyincredible fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 04:33
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literallyincredible posted:I don't actually think there's anyone working in fantasy right now who even could finish the books without a major tonal shift and drop in quality. Sanderson is way too squeaky clean--he works for PG-13 RJ, not NC-17 Martin. Joe Abercrombie would be the best fit in terms of genre sensibilities, prose style, knack for cliffhangers, etc. But even he isn't an exactly perfect fit--Martin is definitely better at worldbuilding, for one thing. (though I'm a huge Abercrombie fan) Actually, you are right. Sanderson is too PG-13 for this series. I think since the world is already built that Abercrombie could do a drat good job. That guy knows how to write a battle scene, and there are some huge battles coming up.
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Jul 17, 2011 04:37
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Ugh, passing this series off to Joe Abercrombie would be my greatest nightmare. But basically I agree that I don't think there's anyone in the fantasy sphere who can write this series "right" the way GRRM can, and that's why I can't really get onboard with "hope Brandon Sanderson gets it when he dies! :iamafag:," no matter how facetious.
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Jul 17, 2011 04:38
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literallyincredible posted:I don't actually think there's anyone working in fantasy right now who even could finish the books without a major tonal shift and drop in quality. Sanderson is way too squeaky clean--he works for PG-13 RJ, not NC-17 Martin. Joe Abercrombie would be the best fit in terms of genre sensibilities, prose style, knack for cliffhangers, etc. But even he isn't an exactly perfect fit--Martin is definitely better at worldbuilding, for one thing. (though I'm a huge Abercrombie fan) True, I can't think of another fantasy writer who can write snappy dialog and has the world-building aspect that Martin does. theblackw0lf fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 04:39
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Comrade Flynn posted:Also tired of him introducing new characters that don't do anything. As someone else mentioned, Asha's entire plot was told in Bolton's letter. Quentyn could have had two chapters: him showing up and getting denied by Dany, and then him trying to tame the dragon. I enjoyed Asha's chapters but that's probably because I'm all about the pirate woman who whores like a man and chucks axes into people's faces. Also, great perspective into the differences between southern knights (and I guess our Ironborn POV) and the Northmen. All the southern warhorses die while the Northmen are basically skipping along having chuckling at the light dusting of snow they're getting this time of the year.
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Jul 17, 2011 04:58
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theblackw0lf posted:True, I can't think of another fantasy writer who can write snappy dialog and has the world-building aspect that Martin does. Let me introduce you to a Mr. Kevin J. Anderson
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Jul 17, 2011 05:01
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literallyincredible posted:I don't actually think there's anyone working in fantasy right now who even could finish the books without a major tonal shift and drop in quality. Sanderson is way too squeaky clean--he works for PG-13 RJ, not NC-17 Martin. Joe Abercrombie would be the best fit in terms of genre sensibilities, prose style, knack for cliffhangers, etc. But even he isn't an exactly perfect fit--Martin is definitely better at worldbuilding, for one thing. (though I'm a huge Abercrombie fan) It baffles me that Martin, a man who cut his teeth on TV, has lost the most important lesson of that format: Brevity is the soul of wit.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:01
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theblackw0lf posted:I'm nervous Martin doesn't have the indepth notes that Jordan left, which has helped make Sanderson's WoT so good. Why would you think that fat gently caress has notes? EDIT and even if he did - I'm 90% sure he has no idea how it is ending. I think he will write this series until he dies, and good for him - what possible motivation does he have for finishing? kcroy fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 05:13
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theblackw0lf posted:True, I can't think of another fantasy writer who can write snappy dialog and has the world-building aspect that Martin does. I don't know if you guys are trolling or serious when you say stuff like this. Is your position honestly that GRRM tells stories in a way that stands head & shoulders above other writing and that if he died no one could take his place
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Jul 17, 2011 05:17
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kcroy posted:Why would you think that fat gently caress has notes? Not having to deal with legions of people like you going "You fat gently caress absolute fucker obese pedophile shithead"? I'd say that's pretty good motivation.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:21
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Any ideas on what Bran saw in his last chapter? Something about a guy getting his throat cut by a woman with white hair and a man with a beard. Can anyone explain how Arya killed that guy? I didn't really follow that.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:21
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quote:I don't know if you guys are trolling or serious when you say stuff like this. Is your position honestly that GRRM tells stories in a way that stands head & shoulders above other writing and that if he died no one could take his place in fantasy? yes. in fiction overall? no, but I dont think there any serious non-fantasy novelists who'd do it anyway (I think Michael Chabon's mentioned he's a fan of the books--but if you think Chabon's putting his career on hold to finish someone else's series you're nuts). But compared to Hobb, Rothfuss, Abercrombie, Lynch, Sanderson, Tad Williams, China Mieville and pretty much every other living fantasy writer, yes Martin's dialogue is head and shoulders above theirs, and frankly most other aspects of his writing are as well.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:22
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hypocrite lecteur posted:I don't know if you guys are trolling or serious when you say stuff like this. Is your position honestly that GRRM tells stories in a way that stands head & shoulders above other writing and that if he died no one could take his place Have you seen how bad popular fantasy writing is? GRRM may not be Hemingway, but he's head and shoulders above other writers within the genre.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:23
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Vivek posted:Any ideas on what Bran saw in his last chapter? Something about a guy getting his throat cut by a woman with white hair and a man with a beard. She is told by the old man to kill the merchant dude (really a ship insurance agent) but ONLY him. So her original plan to kill the guards too is out. She walks up to a dude who is going in to pay the man for an insurance policy and cuts his purse. She then intentionally gets caught and rips the purse spilling coins everywhere. She stole one of the dude's coins and then dropped her own poisoned coin. The dude gathers up all the coins, and he goes in to pay the merchant. The merchant then bites all of the coins to ensure they are genuine, as is his custom. He then dies.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:41
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hypocrite lecteur posted:I don't know if you guys are trolling or serious when you say stuff like this. Is your position honestly that GRRM tells stories in a way that stands head & shoulders above other writing and that if he died no one could take his place Please let us know what other fantasy authors have the combination of snappy dialog, intricate plots, and world-building that Martin does. I'd love to discover some new great books to read. Actually I'd be just interested in fantasy authors who can write dialog as well he can.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:43
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theblackw0lf posted:True, I can't think of another fantasy writer who can write snappy dialog and has the world-building aspect that Martin does. I'd put Steven Erikson on par with GURM on dialog (kruppe rules) and higher with respect to world building. More importantly he actually treats writing as a job and puts books out of the length of DWD every year or so, instead of making readers wait 6 years between books. edit: theblackw0lf posted:Please let us know what other fantasy authors have the combination of snappy dialog, intricate plots, and world-building that Martin does. I'd love to discover some new great books to read. Read the Malazan Book of the Fallen series
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Jul 17, 2011 05:49
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b0lt posted:I'd put Steven Erikson on par with GURM on dialog (kruppe rules) and higher with respect to world building. More importantly he actually treats writing as a job and puts books out of the length of DWD every year or so, instead of making readers wait 6 years between books. I am reading Malazan (on Gardens of the Moon). But I wouldn't put him at nearly the same level of dialog as Martin. I'll give you that he rivals him on Worldbuilding though.
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Jul 17, 2011 05:53
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quote:I'd put Steven Erikson on par with GURM on dialog (kruppe rules) and higher with respect to world building. More importantly he actually treats writing as a job and puts books out of the length of DWD every year or so, instead of making readers wait 6 years between books. Steven Erikson wrote 10 of those Malazan books and didn't manage to produce a single memorable line in *any* of them. He is drat good at plotting/world-building, and has some cool characters and is *certainly* produces content a lot faster, but no, his dialogue is bog-standard fantasy level. Seriously, the 3rd Davos chapter in Dance alone has more good lines than there are in any Malazan book. edit: Put another way, the Game of Thrones TV series took most of its dialogue directly from the books (though there was of course some cutting/rearranging), and it made for drat fine television, on the level of most critically acclaimed HBO-style dramas. I don't think you could do the same for any other fantasy author and get results half as good. literallyincredible fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 05:54
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theblackw0lf posted:Please let us know what other fantasy authors have the combination of snappy dialog, intricate plots, and world-building that Martin does. I'd love to discover some new great books to read. I actually really like the dialog in James Enge's books: http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Ambrose-James-Enge/dp/1591027365/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1310881004&sr=8-1 Some review called it something along the lines of "if Raymond Chandler wrote Conan the Barbarian" which I thought was pretty apt. Also, the third book in the series has ghost-powered zeppelins that are piloted by werewolves, so there's that.
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Jul 17, 2011 06:41
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The biggest of cliffhangers... Will Ser Balon Swann find Darkstar?!? Most epic showdown in the series and it will be offscreen.
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Jul 17, 2011 07:16
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We came so close to finally witnessing how to play "Come Into My Castle" in this book!
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Jul 17, 2011 07:21
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My favorite part was when Victarion tossed a bunch of chained up perfume boys into the ocean without a second thought.
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Jul 17, 2011 07:25
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b0lt posted:I'd put Steven Erikson on par with GURM on dialog (kruppe rules) and higher with respect to world building. More importantly he actually treats writing as a job and puts books out of the length of DWD every year or so, instead of making readers wait 6 years between books. I can't care about the world of the Malazan series if no one in it is interesting at all (and that's a pervasive Erikson flaw) before you say anything, I read all ten books and yeah, anyone interesting was put aside for three books on a level that would make the GRRM whiners blush and by the time they came back I was more than bored with the world. GRRM may not provide as epic of a world, but it's filled with such vibrancy and lush characters that I can forgive it, completely. Also ADWD may be close to the best ASOIAF book yet. Azure_Horizon fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 07:35
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I like to believe that Victarion picked 7 girls for his sacrifice so he had a chance of appeasing 3 pantheons at once.
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Jul 17, 2011 07:43
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dumb brunette posted:Belatedly, regarding chapters that got moved to TWOW, I'm also fairly sure there was originally intended to be one more Bran chapter that must have gotten moved, whether for space reasons or timeline reasons. My wager is that it's Bran watching the battle for Winterfell through some warg eyes, whether it's the tree or one of Bloodraven's crows, and that GRRM decided to let that plot thread hang so we wouldn't be sure what to make of Ramsay's letter. Jeez, that would be a kickass chapter. keiran_helcyan posted:We came so close to finally witnessing how to play "Come Into My Castle" in this book! I thought this was a euphemism for sex the whole time! GoodluckJonathan fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 08:00
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Master Kush posted:So let me get this strait. George made a football bet and lost so he had to write in a pats fan. The pats fan, Ser "Pat"rek, was the guy who got the poo poo beat out of him by the giant (his favorite team). Good one George! It's not exactly uncommon for authors to put friends or family into cameos. Or sometimes they auction it off for a charity. Terry Pratchett has done it several times, Brandon Sanderson too if you read the annotations to his books. A few of capital L literature authors too (their publisher was always a favourite of early 20th century German authors for example, Unseld appeared more or less disguised in at least a dozen books).
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Jul 17, 2011 08:09
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theblackw0lf posted:I am reading Malazan (on Gardens of the Moon). But I wouldn't put him at nearly the same level of dialog as Martin. They can hardly compare as even the approach to "dialogue" is very different. It would depend a lot on the reader. Then, the Malazan series is an acquired taste and takes some time to get to the good stuff. So Gardens of the Moon can hardly compare because it's only a starting point even for the writing, whereas Martin's series starts and continues strong, more or less on the same level. ASoIaF has a wider, popular reach because it's quality storytelling all focused on delivering the best thing to the reader. Malazan is more intimate and experimental, as it is Erikson's own research and tries to go deeper in human themes and the various implications (microcosm/macrocosm, meta-narrative, post-modern ridiculous stuff). So ASoIaF focuses on plot, familiar characters with familiar feelings, keep readers turning the pages, ending chapters on cliffhangers, and so on. Malazan is, and becomes as it goes, more "niche" as it demands similar sensibilities from the reader. Plays with perspectives and frames, narrative styles, layers of meaning and so on. Less focused on telling the best and most engaging *story*, and more about the research and grasp of meaning, outside rhetoric. I'd say that Martin knows to perfection the rules of storytelling and his work is the honing of that craft (which is why it takes him forever to write a book, as it's meticulous, tiring work). Erikson is the guy who'd rather turn the tables, break all rules to see what's behind or to see what happens when you turn them upside down. He's more wildly creative, far more "raw", but also more alive and talented from my point of view (and requiring a lot of "mining" to understand fully and dig out the best stuff in there). In fact this is, imho, the real point that makes them different as writers, and all the rest develops from there: Martin represents a kind of stasis. You know what kind of quality you can expect, and the book will usually deliver. It's the best kind of quality entertainment. But pinned within its own structure and craft. Erikson is instead very much alike this approach of him: Many fantasy worlds seem to exist on the page in a kind of stasis, as if magic would trap in amber the cultures portrayed. We didn’t want to do it that way; we wanted something more dynamic, in perpetual flux – just as in this world. For that we needed solid foundations. But even here there were alternatives: for myself, I don’t find the history of ancient Egypt particularly interesting, principally because it was a stagnated civilization, conceptually bound to ritualized forms and backward looking. The Greeks and then the Romans were far more interesting as civilizations. Anyway, you’ll find corollaries for many kinds of civilization in the Malazan world: we just made it an obsession to be mindful that cultures evolve, and we held to the notion of cultures in transition being intrinsically more interesting that static ones. Only, applied to writing. So from Martin you can expect that mastery of hard-coded, honed through the years, craft. From Erikson a raw, dynamic, unbound kind of talent that is less easy to follow around and appreciate, but also more satisfying if you dedicate to it (so it really depends on a reader). I wanted to say this because of this other post: Darko posted:But after DT4 and the long wait to 5, we had no idea he'd become what he did - or completely change the tone of the books/series, etc. But it did teach me to not "trust" any long running series from an author - so I don't get nearly as let down now. You can trust Erikson. Not because the series is done and was done in the promised timeframe, but because it also delivers what it promises and is filled with gifts. There are no fake baits or tricks. Erikson is one of the most honest writers I know (next to David Foster Wallace). It also deals the stuff where other failed. Think for example the mythology and mysteries of LOST. That's one aspect that in Malazan is done perfectly and delivering plenty of satisfaction (and also revealing stuff filled with important implications). I find ASoIaF drier because beside the great story it's not telling or revealing me something I feel important or necessary. It's for me mostly limited to entertainment and escapism. Malazan engages me on a deeper level that I care about. That said, it's quite pointless to decide in absolute that one's better than the other. Have you seen the Tree of Life recent movie by Terrence Malick? That's the kind of stuff people love or hate. Very similar to Malazan stuff, especially of a similar, pretentious, ambition that for some is only a spectacular failure.
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Jul 17, 2011 08:49
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b0lt posted:I'd put Steven Erikson on par with GURM on dialog (kruppe rules) and higher with respect to world building. More importantly he actually treats writing as a job and puts books out of the length of DWD every year or so, instead of making readers wait 6 years between books. I like that one character in Malazan, who is a humongous badass with a gruff, curt demeanor but is actually a decent person. And also that super powerful character who is more powerful than every other super powerful character previously introduced. Abalieno posted:
Haha you can't be serious. "Oh nos, Character X is dead! Erikson have you no mercy??" <Character X resurrected shortly thereafter>. Repeat as necessary. I mean, GRRM does that too, but imagine a Catelyn / ?Jon? rez a couple times per book, every book. If Erikson wrote asoiaf Ned would have died and been rezzed a couple times by now, becoming more powerful each time so he's roughly at R'hllor strength by now. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 08:50
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dumb brunette posted:Also, Jojen asking Bran several times during the course of the story if he was sure Ned hadn't told him this before. Why would he be so sure Ned would tell about something Howland did? To revisit this, I took Jojen's questions as supporting the idea that Ned was the knight. We knew that Ned was small, skilled at arms, upset with the people mocking Reed, and an honorable person. It completely seems like something Ned would do.
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Jul 17, 2011 08:56
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regulargonzalez posted:Haha you can't be serious. I mean "honest" in a different connotation, as with DFW. Intending the writer is putting his own heart into the book and writing as honestly as possible. Besides, it seems Jon is getting rezzd as well.
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Jul 17, 2011 09:01
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TTBF posted:To revisit this, I took Jojen's questions as supporting the idea that Ned was the knight. We knew that Ned was small, skilled at arms, upset with the people mocking Reed, and an honorable person. It completely seems like something Ned would do. Harranhal was 2 years before Robert's Rebellion, which was roughly a year or so before Robb was born, who is 14 at the time of AGOT. That means Ned had to be 18-20ish at *youngest* at the time of the Harranhal tourney -- i.e., fully grown adult. I've never read him being described as small (unless it was by comparison to Gregor or something). How are you figuring him to be small?
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Jul 17, 2011 09:02
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Abalieno posted:I mean "honest" in a different connotation, as with DFW. Intending the writer is putting his own heart into the book and writing as honestly as possible. My pet theory is that people who like The Wire more than The Shield like asoiaf more than Malazan (and vice versa, and conversely).
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Jul 17, 2011 09:04
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I like Malazan but do we must needs to have a discussion about its alleged post-modernism and meta-narrative in this thread? ASOIAF and Malazan feel completely different in terms of narrative, characters, language and so forth and they really aren't comparable.
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Jul 17, 2011 09:09
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regulargonzalez posted:Harranhal was 2 years before Robert's Rebellion, which was roughly a year or so before Robb was born, who is 14 at the time of AGOT. That means Ned had to be 18-20ish at *youngest* at the time of the Harranhal tourney -- i.e., fully grown adult. I've never read him being described as small (unless it was by comparison to Gregor or something). How are you figuring him to be small? Benjen 
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Jul 17, 2011 09:57
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My thoughts on ADWD after a day to formulate an opinion: First I want to discuss the pacing and structure of the plot. I don't really remember how the past books handled cliffhangers and such but it seemed like there were way too many throughout ADWD. There are so many plot threads being juggled right now, and most of them are in completely different locations and it gets kind of annoying when every chapter ends on a cliffhanger only to be picked up again eight chapters later, or NOT AT ALL FOR THE REST OF THE BOOK. Bran and Davos were the worst offenders but Bran is boring and static at the moment, but Davos, really? I thought that since there was over half a book left that he would have another chapter but nope. Another problem I had with the structure was that a lot of cool stuff happened just off screen. Something is about to happen, then BAM cliffhanger and then we pick up that thread later after said event is over, usually from another POV. The one that really bothered me was Theon jumping off the wall as the Manderlys and Freys are going out to battle, drums are beating, the shieldwives are getting sliced, Mance is trapped in the hall... and then cut to black. All of a sudden the Braavosi dude pops up later with Theon and Jeyne Poole and Asha is like shiiiit my brother got hosed up.... then cut to black and they are never heard from again directly. Same with the Dany flying a dragon scene, she jumps on it and the chapter is over and we find out shes missing. There was way too much sitting around chatting, then when the action comes its offscreen. Quentyn Martell catches fire and the chapter ends, or the slavers' ship is approaching and Jorah is ready to fight and the scene ends and next chapter they are being sold. Really? Tyrion can waste six pages wishing he was drunk and talking to Penny about bullshit but the storm is two paragraphs, days lost at sea is a sentence, and actually being taken by slavers is not shown. Must needs, leal, neeps, 'biggest breasts ever seen' and 'WHERE DO WHORES GO' were overused and obnoxious. Most of the POVs are really good, especially Theon. Barristan Selmy is a beast. He stands around thinking about his failures and really wants to help the situation in Meereen, but he has to rationalize within his honor code as a knight what he can and cannot do. Just an old bro who just wants to train his boys and protect his queen and she keeps loving up. He has a really cool view on things. Tyrion needs to stop being all emo about his 'lovely' life, his wit still made the chapters entertaining and the river stuff was cool, but I don't need to read him fit in at least one jape about killing Tywin into every conversation, and asking everybody where whores go. Also, I don't get why they passed under the bridge twice in the Sorrows, was that explained? Victarion is a badass, he goes along with every religion just to cover his bases while he burns and drowns people left and right. Quentyn had a sad plotline, I was rooting for him to succeed because Dorne rules, but sadly there was no place for naive heroics in this series. Jaime's chapter was good but unnecessary in this particular book. I thought the dichotomy between Jon/Dany (and Aegon to a lesser extent but he wasn't the one making decisions) was really interesting. They both find themselves in positions of power and must make decisions that affect lots of people, and they are both young and relatively unexperienced. Jon keeps working to bolster the Wall's defenses and to prepare for winter by making mostly good decisions (and a couple bad ones) while trying to both appease Stannis/Selyse and keep the Watch's neutrality. Dany on the other hand fucks everything up. I'm not even going to talk about Daario. You can't just smash the cornerstone of an entire region's economy and assume that the formerly prosperous are going to roll over and take it. When your people are being butchered in the street every night, you don't slap the obviously involved nobles on the wrist and hope they will suddenly understand that slavery is a morally unsound practice and do what you want. You need to play hardball, but she doesn't listen and instead marries one of their loving leaders while at least two people (Xaro, Quentyn) give you a great reason to leave and go do what really matters, you know, taking Westeros back, but instead she sits there and tries to change an entire culture while armies swarm all over and everyone is dying of disease. But in the end both Jon and Dany can't overcome the resistance to change, and pay severely for it. Maybe. Jon will be rezzed but he gets shanked even though he did a pretty good job, while Dany did a poo poo job and will probably get another army of Dothraki because of it. That's just how Dany rolls. I really liked the book though. BTW Tony Danza Claus I actually do like Chicago Deep Dish but I was tryin to be like my hero grom
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Jul 17, 2011 09:57
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Brannock posted:Not having to deal with legions of people like you going "You fat gently caress absolute fucker obese pedophile shithead"? I'd say that's pretty good motivation. Name one part of that statement that isn't true. 
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Jul 17, 2011 09:59
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Kainser posted:Maybe Benjen was the knight. Timeline doesn't work in the other direction then. He'd be like 10. Barristan's own mystery knight story flat out says that a kid can't joust adults. I think it simply has to be Lyanna, nothing else really makes sense. Rhaegar was ordered by Aerys to investigate the mystery knight, he falls in love with her and later annoints her the queen of beauty, they play Come Into My Castle. regulargonzalez fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 10:06
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