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the one thing that makes me think Aegon might not be fake is that Varys portrays him as legit before he kills Kevan. why lie to a dead man?
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Jul 17, 2011 17:22
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literallyincredible posted:the one thing that makes me think Aegon might not be fake is that Varys portrays him as legit before he kills Kevan. why lie to a dead man? Yeah, that's also the main reason why I think he is legit. Of course I also think Littlefinger will kill him off pretty quickly, as he would probably make short work of his plans.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:26
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literallyincredible posted:the one thing that makes me think Aegon might not be fake is that Varys portrays him as legit before he kills Kevan. why lie to a dead man? That's the one problem I have with the theory. The only way to explain it is that Illyrio made a 2nd switch with his kid and baby Aegon/baby Aegon died and was replaced. Either way that drifts into absurd territory. I didn't start reading the series until the TV show started so I'm about to experience for the first time the long wait between books. I need these crack pot theories to pass the time. Speaking of the TV show I was disappointed that Pycelle was killed. I don't know how much the writers know about the story that we don't know but when they showed that his whole old man routine was just an act it made me think he was up to some scheme of his own. Guess that was just for the TV show and didn't actually impact the story that Martin wanted to tell.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:29
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Jon probably slipped into Ghost at the moment of death, like Varamyr explained in the prologue. That's what skinchangers do when they die inside their natural body. However, their presence slowly dies away inside the animal. And Varamyr recognized Jon as a powerful skinchanger/warg, but no real training. Then Melisandre might revive Jon's old body. Jon can then slip back in, so we get a revival, without the memory loss that Beric Dondarion had. His body still might some holes/scars on it though.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:30
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I think it's the real Aegon, but I also think his one flaw will be his need to prove him self in battle, which will most likely get him killed.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:36
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Also, on the list of things I really liked about DWD: Janos Slynt getting shortened by a head.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:36
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Decius posted:Jon tried to use the Night's Watch to meddle in the affairs of the realm by riding to Winterfell to rescue "Arya" - and he skirted the line already before. Jon's last chapter posted:“The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows. Jon again posted:Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:37
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quote:Also, on the list of things I really liked about DWD: Janos Slynt getting shortened by a head. I think pretty much everyone loved that part. Even the people who didn't much like Dance thought that scene was great.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:39
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How could anyone enjoy the Brann chapters? He spent, what, 2-3 books getting to the three eyed crow, in some of the most boring chapters ever. He FINALLY loving gets there, and it's Brynden Rivers. As a tree. With the children of the forest in tow. Holy poo poo, says I, can't wait to see what happens now. ........ Absolutely nothing. He hugs a tree. He thinks about daddy. He DOESN'T learn how to use his abilities in an interesting fashion / who the hell the Others are or how to stop them / anything whatsoever of interest. The most pointlessly drawn out "get to the point already" plotline outside Dany's.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:41
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Ray_ posted:I think it might have been the proverbial straw on the camel's (oval office. <3 arya) back. But think about everything Jon had been doing leading up to him getting the letter: preparing the wall for all out war with the Others. Manning castles, preventing wholesale slaughter and death of the wildlings (thus preventing the creation of wights), borrowing gold to buy food for the winter, sealing partnerships with the wildlings to use them as a fighting force, and going so far man an entire castle with spear wives. Then one letter from a psycho bastard makes him go crazy? And that just happens to coincide with the Wun Wun killing some knight? And there's a relatively organized murder attempt/mutiny from Marsh and his gang? It was one of the few times in the book I thought had a climax that was almost unrelated to the events before it. Or maybe it just struck me as "false" for some reason. I dunno. I also agree that it was pretty Marsh & Co to attack after he had let a few thousand Wildlings through. What are they gonna do now? Politely ask that they march back through the Wall in an orderly fashion? Some other notes: I love Dolorous Edd.  I'll take a mini series chronicling his adventures before the wall any day. Jon's reaction to the bear warg that came through the gates puzzled me. "Imma let that dude and his bear chill out over there, but I'm gonna lock up my right-hand wolf and not let him out of my chambers." Say wha? That dude would have gotten sent on to a different castle immediately. I might need to go back and read the Bran chapters again, as I had no idea that the three eyed crow was Bloodraven, and even if I did I had forgotten that there was a dude named Bloodraven with a backstory. According to the wiki, he ended up as a Lord Commander for a time, was it explained how he got from there to being molested by a weirwood? I can see Aegon being totally legit, and totally murdered before the end of the next book. He's too "perfect" to survive and rule in Westeros. Speaking of, Tyrion mentions that Aegon "took the bait" when he hears that Aegon is headed towards Westeros. Tyrion's plan sounded way better than what Aegon was gonna do originally, so I wonder what he thinks is flawed about it.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:41
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John Scalzi (who I've actually never read) has a post with some perspective on Dance.quote:George Martin’s previous novel, A Feast for Crows, came out in 2005, the same year as my novel Old Man’s War. Since OMW, I have written The Ghost Brigades, The Last Colony, Zoe’s Tale, Fuzzy Nation, and my upcoming 2012 novel (Agent to the Stars and The Android’s Dream were written prior to 2005). Martin’s written A Dance With Dragons. So I get credited with being reasonably prolific whilst Martin gets slammed by the more poorly socialized members of his fan base for slacking about. I'm an editor for Random House (though a different imprint than publishes Gurm). Generally, when we sign up an author for a new novel that has yet to be written, we plan for a schedule of one year to write a 100,000 word novel, but it is not at *all* uncommon for authors to end up needing more time than that. *Nobody* would bat an eye at an author taking a year and a half to write 100,000 words. Well, 4*1.5 years=6 years, for 400,000 words, or pretty much exactly the pace Martin wrote Dance at (yes, yes, I'm aware he already had some material left over from Feast, but nobody but Martin and his editor knows how much of that ended up making it into Dance--it seems clear that there was a *lot* of rewriting in the process). The crazy thing isn't that Dance took as long as it did, its that he cranked out Clash and Storm at a pace that most authors would consider impossibly fast. If Martin's pace makes him "lazy", then the majority of authors are just as "lazy". So, I'm not at all angry at Martin for taking as long as he did, and I suspect his editor isn't either, though I don't know her personally. What *does* worry me though is that, while Martin may have written this book at roughly the same pace most authors write at... Most authors aren't obese 60+ year old men with 50,000 chekhov's guns to resolve. I'm not mad at the dude, but I am pretty loving worried he's gonna die before we get to see what happens.
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Jul 17, 2011 17:50
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Can someone explain the whole Lady Lemore = Ashara Dayne? I thought Dayne threw herself from a tower, that seems like a death that would have many witnesses. Is there any evidence that Lemore is Dayne and not who she says she is? Also, as far as the coin Arya gave the guy, I just assumed it's magic. These guys can put faces of dead people on other people, nothing says they can't have special coins that kill people.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:05
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EC posted:I can see Aegon being totally legit, and totally murdered before the end of the next book. He's too "perfect" to survive and rule in Westeros. Speaking of, Tyrion mentions that Aegon "took the bait" when he hears that Aegon is headed towards Westeros. Tyrion's plan sounded way better than what Aegon was gonna do originally, so I wonder what he thinks is flawed about it. Yeah, I want to believe Aegon is the real thing but I think he'll die tragically in some way if he is. I get the making of Varys and Illyrio's plot: Raise Aegon to be king in secret. Use Viserys and his secret marriage pact with Arianne of Dorne, and marry Daenerys to Khal Drogo. When the time comes, they'll have the Dothraki and Dorne's army to retake the throne for Aegon. Only problem is the whole "raising Aegon in secret" thing. Did they expect Viserys to just quietly stand aside when he's believed all this life that he's the heir? Even if he didn't turn out batshit crazy, he'd still be a little upset. Varys's little speech about "Aegon knows kingship is his duty, while Tommen believes it's his right" got me thinking. Does Daenerys believe it's her right or her duty to sit on the Iron Throne? Maybe she's not supposed to retake Westeros at all, and she'll resurrect Valyrian civilization or something. Regarding Bran: I thought the chapters were slow, and kinda depressing. Kid becomes a cripple and is now destined to live in a cave by himself? When he's watching the world through the weirwood network, he's able to see things that happened in the past because the time moves slower for the weirwoods. Maybe the truth of Jon's parentage will be revealed through Bran's eyes (IF the theories are true and Jon isn't just Ned Stark's bastard after all). kazil posted:Can someone explain the whole Lady Lemore = Ashara Dayne? I thought Dayne threw herself from a tower, that seems like a death that would have many witnesses. Is there any evidence that Lemore is Dayne and not who she says she is? They said Ashara's body was never found. Lemore's also very beautiful for her age. GRRM hasn't mentioned her eye color, though, which would give it away (Ashara had purple eyes and fair hair).
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Jul 17, 2011 18:06
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quote:Also, as far as the coin Arya gave the guy, I just assumed it's magic. These guys can put faces of dead people on other people, nothing says they can't have special coins that kill people. I think there was just poison on it, since such a point was made of how he bits the coins. One definite theme in these books seems to be that, while magic exists, most practitioners combine it with mundane techniques to seem more powerful than they are. Like, faceless men can change faces, but driving Weese's dog crazy was obviously just a poison mentioned in Feast. Melisandre does have some powers, but she uses trickery and an enigmatic persona to seem much more powerful/knowledgeable than she is.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:08
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EC posted:But think about everything Jon had been doing leading up to him getting the letter: preparing the wall for all out war with the Others. Manning castles, preventing wholesale slaughter and death of the wildlings (thus preventing the creation of wights), borrowing gold to buy food for the winter, sealing partnerships with the wildlings to use them as a fighting force, and going so far man an entire castle with spear wives. Then one letter from a psycho bastard makes him go crazy? Again, I think the key is Arya. He thinks she's out there all alone in the wilderness, being hunted by a loving psychopath who flays women, and she's relatively close to where he's at. He can save her. It's not about revenge or the threat Ramsay made to cut out his heart or even about rescuing Mance. It might be all of those things for the wildlings, but not for Jon Snow. Look at the speech he made to get the wildlings to pledge him their swords. He doesn't even mention Arya in it. Yet look at his thoughts right after reading the letter: Jon posted:Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … It seems obvious to me. He's reflecting on all of his brothers and sisters that he's lost. Every single one is dead, as far as he knows, except Sansa who's disappeared and may be dead. Now Arya - the one he was closest to, probably - has re-appeared after he thought she'd been dead for a few years (give or take), and she's in desperate need of him. Look at the last thought he has - repeating Ramsay's words over and over again. He can't let her be captured by Ramsay.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:08
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kazil posted:Also, as far as the coin Arya gave the guy, I just assumed it's magic. These guys can put faces of dead people on other people, nothing says they can't have special coins that kill people. Part of her training is making poisons while she's blind, and I believe the kindly man pretty much confirms it's poison after Arya murders the dude. Diving Buttress posted:I get the making of Varys and Illyrio's plot: Raise Aegon to be king in secret. Use Viserys and his secret marriage pact with Arianne of Dorne, and marry Daenerys to Khal Drogo. When the time comes, they'll have the Dothraki and Dorne's army to retake the throne for Aegon. Only problem is the whole "raising Aegon in secret" thing. Did they expect Viserys to just quietly stand aside when he's believed all this life that he's the heir? Even if he didn't turn out batshit crazy, he'd still be a little upset. I saw this as more Varys and Illyrio hedging their bets than anything else. There was no guarantee that any of the Targs they managed to slip out during the rebellion were actually going to survive. Why not double down? It's almost the exact same thing with Bran and Rickon, now that I think about it. quote:Varys's little speech about "Aegon knows kingship is his duty, while Tommen believes it's his right" got me thinking. Does Daenerys believe it's her right or her duty to sit on the Iron Throne? Maybe she's not supposed to retake Westeros at all, and she'll resurrect Valyrian civilization or something. It seems to me that she views it as a right. The language she uses comes directly from Viserys (The Usurper, pretenders to the throne, rightful heir, my throne, etc) and I don't think she has a good concept of "duty" yet, at least as to how it would relate to her ruling Westeros. Thinking way way way too much about this stuff. Think I'm gonna go outside or something. Edit: not yet though! Ray_ posted:It seems obvious to me. He's reflecting on all of his brothers and sisters that he's lost. Every single one is dead, as far as he knows, except Sansa who's disappeared and may be dead. Now Arya - the one he was closest to, probably - has re-appeared after he thought she'd been dead for a few years (give or take), and she's in desperate need of him. Look at the last thought he has - repeating Ramsay's words over and over again. He can't let her be captured by Ramsay. I'll come over to your side of thinking on this one, I suppose. Jon's an emotional guy, who has spent the latest part of his life seeing people he loves brutally murdered and trying to save a land that doesn't particularly care to be saved. It still seems a bit...crazy, though, even given the circumstances. (:highfive: on the LSU av, by the way) EC fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 18:13
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I'm not sure the right/duty stuff means much anyway. Stannis thinks of ruling as a duty, and he's an uncharismatic tool who everyone hates. I mean, I love the dude as a character, but its clear that being a good king is more than just having the right perspective.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:16
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Diving Buttress posted:Varys's little speech about "Aegon knows kingship is his duty, while Tommen believes it's his right" got me thinking. Does Daenerys believe it's her right or her duty to sit on the Iron Throne? Maybe she's not supposed to retake Westeros at all, and she'll resurrect Valyrian civilization or something. e; People would probably hate him while he ruled, but Stannis would make an excellent king  (until he's killed by some powerful noble he scorned that is)
Kainser fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 18:19
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I don't think Stannis would last a year before some House or the other rebelled against him. As the books say, he just doesn't inspire loyalty the way Robert did.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:22
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literallyincredible posted:Stannis thinks of ruling as a duty, and he's an uncharismatic tool who everyone hates. Actually, given that Stannis is an utter dick, I wonder how he gets the most loyal people in the realm. Cressen drank poison trying to save Stannis from Melisandre, and then there's Davos.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:24
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quote:Actually, given that Stannis is an utter dick, I wonder how he gets the most loyal people in the realm. Cressen drank poison trying to save Stannis from Melisandre, and then there's Davos. Cressen raised him up from a sensitive kid who got overshadowed by his brothers, and he made Davos a knight (and later a lord) and he sticks to principles in a way Davos respects. Melisandre has deluded herself regarding her prophecies. Nobody else is especially loyal to Stannis.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:26
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Hemp Knight posted:Actually, given that Stannis is an utter dick, I wonder how he gets the most loyal people in the realm. Cressen drank poison trying to save Stannis from Melisandre, and then there's Davos.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:28
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kazil posted:Can someone explain the whole Lady Lemore = Ashara Dayne? I thought Dayne threw herself from a tower, that seems like a death that would have many witnesses. Is there any evidence that Lemore is Dayne and not who she says she is? Ray_ posted:Hmm, dirty old man Barristan the Bold was in freakin love with Ashara Dayne. He thinks she killed herself out of grief for the stillborn daughter she lost and perhaps for Ned.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:30
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Maybe Aegon is Eddard's and Ashara's bastard 
Kainser fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 18:31
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Well Tyrion calls Lemore more handsome than pretty. Connington didn't so much fake his death as he left his life behind and people assumed he was dead. Ashara supposedly flung herself from a tower, didn't she? Tyrion marks her past 40. Wasn't Ned mid-30s? I couldn't off on that, been a while since I read AGoT. Referring to her as lady could be a courtesy or even a joke. Ser Rolly Duckfield seems to be exactly who he claims to be, just some dude that Connington knighted. Just seems really hokey to me, though. All these people that were dead keep turning up. He can make interesting characters without having to resort to dead ones from 20 years 15 years ago.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:35
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Something about Davos's character has always rubbed me kind of weird. How does a smuggler become this principled, and principled enough to just accept Stannis chopping off his fingers and love him for it? Becoming a knight just seems like a rather paltry reward for inspiring this much loyalty.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:38
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Diving Buttress posted:
Dark hair, actually. According to Barristan. EC posted:I'll come over to your side of thinking on this one, I suppose. Jon's an emotional guy, who has spent the latest part of his life seeing people he loves brutally murdered and trying to save a land that doesn't particularly care to be saved. It still seems a bit...crazy, though, even given the circumstances. (:highfive: on the LSU av, by the way) Jon intentionally made it sound like it was about vengeance and justice and stuff to get the wildlings to go along with it. I think the fact that he presented it that way in his speech has got readers confused and thinking what he said in his speech were his true motivations. Even though he never came out and said to himself, "I'm going to go save my sister," the internal thoughts he had right after reading the letter points directly to it. Hell yes, a fellow LSU fan?
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Jul 17, 2011 18:39
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kazil posted:Also, as far as the coin Arya gave the guy, I just assumed it's magic. These guys can put faces of dead people on other people, nothing says they can't have special coins that kill people. There was a whole section in the Blind Girl chapter about Arya learning how to make poisons. The whole deal with the House of Black and White is that it's filled with pools of poison. It was previously established that the target bites every single coin that passes through his hands. She poisoned the coin.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:40
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Brannock posted:Something about Davos's character has always rubbed me kind of weird. How does a smuggler become this principled, and principled enough to just accept Stannis chopping off his fingers and love him for it? Knighthood isn't a meaningless courtesy, it bestows very real financial and social advantages, especially for someone born a commoner. Davos' loyalty to Stannis makes complete sense
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Jul 17, 2011 18:41
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Brannock posted:Something about Davos's character has always rubbed me kind of weird. How does a smuggler become this principled, and principled enough to just accept Stannis chopping off his fingers and love him for it? It wasn't just an empty knighthood like what Bronn was rewarded with. e; in addition to becoming Stannis' most trusted advisor and having one of his sons become Stannis' squire. Davos didn't lack for rewards. Kainser fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 18:41
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I wonder if Marwyn is going to get a PoV in TWoW. Christ there's so many concurrent plots running in this series. How the hell does he keep track of them?
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Jul 17, 2011 18:42
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I guess I kind of expected Davos to be more like Salladhor Saan, Aurane Waters, or Nimble Dick - somewhat unscrupulous. We never really get to find out why he's super principled despite being raised as a smuggler from boyhood. The loyalty I can understand after remembering the rewards, yeah.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:46
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quote:I wonder if Marwyn is going to get a PoV in TWoW. Christ there's so many concurrent plots running in this series. How the hell does he keep track of them? on my reread of the series I was kinda shocked how much Marwyn gets mentioned. Its also notable that *every* person who cites him as a mentor is an evil gently caress who uses horrible necromancy and blood magic. I'm 100% positive he's set to be a villainous figure. literallyincredible fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 17, 2011 |
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Jul 17, 2011 18:50
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Brannock posted:Something about Davos's character has always rubbed me kind of weird. How does a smuggler become this principled, and principled enough to just accept Stannis chopping off his fingers and love him for it? I think his reflections on his sons were what sold it to me. His pride that his sons were captains of ships, a squire to a king, that they were learning to read. Davos was no one until Stannis made him something. Look at how lovely the commoners have it and think how much it means to Davos that not only was he and his family raised above it, but that the King would listen to his advice and respect him.
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Jul 17, 2011 18:51
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The guy who bought Tyrion and Penny... after he was described as obese, lying down, and dressed in a yellow tokar, I started picturing him as hedonismbot from Futurama. Like, for the entire rest of the novel. It was hedonismbot screwing a hermaphrodite, hedonismbot crapping himself to death... and I could not get the image out of my head because it just made so much damned sense. Please tell me I wasn't the only one.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:00
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literallyincredible posted:on my reread of the series I was kinda shocked how much Marwyn gets mentioned. Its also notable that *every* person who cites him as a mentor is an evil gently caress who uses horrible necromancy and blood magic. I'm 100% positive he's set to be a villainous figure. I think he's unorthodox but I doubt he's evil. Qyburn lost his chain because of what he did on his own, Marwyn still ranks as an Archmaester in the eyes of the Citadel. He may have extensive knowledge of physiology but I trust he got it all from dissections. Likewise, he taught Mirri Maz Duar how to heal--a skill that she used for decades to keep her village healthy and happy. She's not evil.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:07
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Ray_ posted:The whole way it all went down seemed crazy. What was with the giant killing Ser Patrek? Wonder if it had to do with Seleyse arranging Val's marriage to him? Probably he was taking everyone's advice and trying to "steal" her, not realizing that it wasn't just a formality and that there would be a giant on guard duty.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:12
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I actually felt kind of sorry for Cersei in this book. Probably a combination of the poo poo she went through, and the fact that we were dealing with much worse people like Ramsay for most of the time.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:13
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Ser Patrek of King's Mountain (named after a Football blogger named Pat who lives in Montreal "Mont Royal") is an insert character added when he won a bet against GRRM. Pat's favourite team is the Dallas Cowboys (hence Patrek's colours of blue, white and silver with a five pointed star) and he's been eager to see how he would die in the books. Well, GRRM is a NY Giants fan. showbiz_liz posted:The guy who bought Tyrion and Penny... after he was described as obese, lying down, and dressed in a yellow tokar, I started picturing him as hedonismbot from Futurama. Like, for the entire rest of the novel. It was hedonismbot screwing a hermaphrodite, hedonismbot crapping himself to death... and I could not get the image out of my head because it just made so much damned sense. Yeah I thought this too and it made Tyrion chapters far more bearable.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:20
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Ray_ posted:No, he wasn't using the Night's Watch for that. He was sending them to Hardhome and he was going to Winterfell by himself. It was an important distinction that he made, in his mind at least. Jon might have deluded himself into "it's just me", but that doesn't mean the others see it the same way. He is the Lord Commander after all, and even if he alienated a lot of people he also has people who follow him (even if he sent many of them away). Caesar might really have had the notion to give back his power as Dictator after he "fixed" the Roman Republic, but that didn't stop the Senators from stabbing him because they feared he would make himself king.
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Jul 17, 2011 19:33
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