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Brannock posted:"Hey guys, we are severely undermanned and literally no one is coming to help us. Those wildings are willing to help us not die horribly - so I'm going to put my best men in charge of them." Didn't he pretty much say this? His inner monologue kept talking about how the guys he had left were lovely counsel. They didn't think things through and stuck to their guns even when Jon explained that he was doing what was best for the Watch. They couldn't see past WILDLING WILDLING WILDLING. Goddamn Leathers is a loving badass master-at-arms and they poo poo all over him.
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Jul 18, 2011 01:39
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Scoobi posted:Am I the only one optimistic that now that he is past his little knot that the books are going to come out much faster? He no longer has to worry about mereen and hbo is gonna be on his rear end and he put out SOS and ACOK pretty fast. Yes, because he still has to worry about Meereen, he didn't resolve anything there. I can see Dany being changed from her shitberry sojourn, Barristan loving up the Yunkers after the Dornish free the slaves and Tyrion turns the sellswords, and Victarion whisking them all away to Westeros. But thats like best case scenario.
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Jul 18, 2011 01:54
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What the gently caress kind of knot was there in Mereen if this is the "solution". Mereen is as big a clusterfuck as ever with the city still being sieged, two dragons on the loose, Tyrion/Victarion/Marwyn still haven't meet Dany, and Dany making GBS threads around in the middle of the Dothraki sea. I bet George will be faced with Mereenese Knot 2.0 in trying to wrap up all these storylines and getting Dany and co. on a boat bound for Westeros. I'm actually surprised with the critical acclaim that ADWD is getting. My theory is that it's a bit like Indiana Jones 4 which coasted on the reputation of the series and it took a while for people to realize that it just wasn't a very good movie (IJ4 still hold 77% on rotten tomatoes based on the strong early reviews). The hype from the HBO show really colored people's opinions of the book. I mean it got near universal acclaim from critics but is currently sitting at 3 stars on Amazon. The hardcore fans that have already bought and read the book know what's up; ADWD (and AFFC before it) is a major step down from the first three books.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:05
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literallyincredible posted:John Scalzi (who I've actually never read) has a post with some perspective on Dance. The problem with this argument is that it almost presupposes that 400,000 words were necessary. People are not only annoyed at how long it's taking to release the books, they're annoyed at all the boring waste contained in the books. Is there enough of a point to the Dorne/Ironmen/Dany/Brienne stuff to make it worth the words? Probably not. I know that it is boring when in a book/film/show, everything goes according to plan or whatever, but in this series the amount of failures and reversals are getting tedious. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 02:08
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mcable posted:The hype from the HBO show really colored people's opinions of the book. I mean it got near universal acclaim from critics but is currently sitting at 3 stars on Amazon. The hardcore fans that have already bought and read the book know what's up; ADWD (and AFFC before it) is a major step down from the first three books. You forget that the hardcore fans are bitter and angry because the book took 5 years to come out. Their opinions of it were biased before they even cracked it open.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:12
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mcable posted:The hype from the HBO show really colored people's opinions of the book. I mean it got near universal acclaim from critics but is currently sitting at 3 stars on Amazon. The hardcore fans that have already bought and read the book know what's up; ADWD (and AFFC before it) is a major step down from the first three books. Amazon.com reviews are a joke, c'mon.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:13
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thehoodie posted:You forget that the hardcore fans are bitter and angry because the book took 5 years to come out. Their opinions of it were biased before they even cracked it open. I don't know. Aside from the "Bad thread" and "Is Winter Coming", there seems to be a lot more hardcore defenders of GRRM online than detractors. Pedro De Heredia posted:Amazon.com reviews are a joke, c'mon. AGOT: 4.4 stars ACOK: 4.5 stars ASOS: 4.5 stars AFFC: 3.2 stars ADWD: 3.2 stars Sounds about right to me. Maybe Amazon ratings are a joke, but this is a pretty good approximation of how I feel about the series (I'd rate ASOS even higher but it's pretty close overall).
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Jul 18, 2011 02:37
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Scoobi posted:Am I the only one optimistic that now that he is past his little knot that the books are going to come out much faster? He no longer has to worry about mereen and hbo is gonna be on his rear end and he put out SOS and ACOK pretty fast. No not really? Mereen is basically a tacit admission that he's making it all up as he goes along and isn't thinking particularly hard about the consequences of various narrative choices. I don't have any faith that the plot will be finished in a satisfying or efficient way or that, looking forward, the series will be better managed than it has to this point. If you do, well, good for you
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Jul 18, 2011 02:42
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mcable posted:What the gently caress kind of knot was there in Mereen if this is the "solution". Mereen is as big a clusterfuck as ever with the city still being sieged, two dragons on the loose, Tyrion/Victarion/Marwyn still haven't meet Dany, and Dany making GBS threads around in the middle of the Dothraki sea. Depends on what you like about the series. I felt AFFC/ADWD had not only the strongest writing of the series, but some of its biggest gamechangers and the setup for TWoW pretty much cements that the next book will be the best ASOIAF yet by a thousand million leagues. It's just that people seem to hate backstory and worldbuilding which these two books have mostly given us, while I found it fascinating and fleshed out Westeros as a character more than any previous book had attempted to. I don't take reader reviews with anything more than a pinch of salt -- the professional reviews have pointed out a lot of the reasons I love AFFC and ADWD, and that's just fine with me. I do believe that Dany's last chapter has proven that the knot will be destroyed early on in TWoW.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:44
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My two cents: A lot of hate for Dany's chapters, and I agree they were pretty mediocre. But I also see a lot of hate for her personally, which I disagree with. I think the character of Daenerys is just fine -- it's just that Slaver's Bay is without doubt the least interesting loving setting in the entire series so far, and yet he decides we need to spend 2 books there, putzing around, and send the best character (Tyrion) there to putz around too while he's at it. I like a lot of her character's themes and her personal development (except the Daario stuff gently caress Daario), but holy gently caress every Meereenese character is awful and pointless. Just dragon-nuke the whole city and move on for gently caress's sake.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:47
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Just finished the book. Nearly every character in the book annoyed me with their terrible decision making/awareness of their surroundings. Jon, whose motives were sound, gets himself shanked in a very obvious turn of events. Dany further shits up things in Meereen and harms her relationship with her dragons. Tyrion, while still an interesting character, talked poo poo way too much for someone as smart as he's been written previously. It was like Tyrion snark set to eleven. Barristan, however, saved the book. He didn't do anything stupid, and had the single best moment in the book and it was barely given focus. When Daenerys jumps into the pit with Drogon and it looks like the dragon is going to eat her rear end, Barristan jumps in and starts trying to get Drogon's attention by yelling "Me! Try me. Over here. Me!" You know, I love this series, but this book showed me how staying grimdark 100% of the time and always making GBS threads on the decent characters can really start to wear thin. I know some people have stated that this is the reason the series is great, because it is subverting the genre! But when does just loving with characters become less an interesting plot point and end up just being a gimmick? The one line given concerning Dany hearing Barristan trying to protect her from Drogon was the only time during this book when it felt like anything awesome happened. It wasn't someone dying some shocking death, or someone being phenomenally greedy yet cool, or a supernatural reveal. It was the one character that isn't annoying, isn't greedy, isn't stupid, and isn't a douchebag trying desperately to save his queen by selflessly trying to get a dragon's attention focused solely on him. It was probably the most heroic act in the series and it got a single line of mention. I really walked away from this book feeling that it was just more of the same, and I'm beginning to think GRRM has no loving idea about how this series is going to actually end. DFu4ever fucked around with this message at 02:56 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 02:49
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DFu4ever posted:The one line given concerning Dany hearing Barristan trying to protect her from Drogon was the only time during this book when it felt like anything awesome happened. It wasn't someone dying some shocking death, or someone being phenomenally greedy yet cool, or a supernatural reveal. It was the one character that isn't annoying, isn't greedy, isn't stupid, and isn't a douchebag trying desperately to save his queen by selflessly trying to get a dragon's attention focused solely on him. It was probably the most heroic act in the series and it got a single line of mention. He totally could have subverted his subersion of the genre by having the one true knight in the entire story slay an actual dragon at that point.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:51
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Xander77 posted:How could anyone enjoy the Brann chapters? Hey I liked it just on the fact that they had coldhands and the children of the forest in it. Coldhands is bad rear end, I wonder who he is?
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Jul 18, 2011 02:53
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withak posted:He totally could have subverted his subersion of the genre by having the one true knight in the entire story slay an actual dragon at that point. I actually thought the next paragraph was going to start with "And in a gout of flame, Drogon roasted Barristan the Bold in his armor."
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Jul 18, 2011 02:57
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Scoobi posted:Am I the only one optimistic that now that he is past his little knot that the books are going to come out much faster? He no longer has to worry about mereen and hbo is gonna be on his rear end and he put out SOS and ACOK pretty fast. No. I've written novels, and though they weren't nearly as long or complex as the ASOIAF books, for all of them the middle is the hardest part. You have to make sure all your plotlines and character development are in synch. Once you get past the midpoint, you get more momentum (and kill off more characters) and that speeds things up.
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Jul 18, 2011 02:58
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GRRM has said he doubts there's going to be another time-killer like the Meereen situation was, for what little it's worth. He isn't going to get a start on TWOW until next year because of book tours and show filming poo poo, but I don't think it'll take him 6 years again to get TWOW out.
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Jul 18, 2011 03:06
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I'm calling it right now. Stannis Baratheon will win the war. Always bet on black, motherfuckers.
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Jul 18, 2011 03:07
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It makes sense that some of the brothers from the nights watch turned on Jon because he basically forsaked his vows, which the penalty is death. In addition he housed that girl and jailed her pursuers which is outside of the nights watch's responsibilities. Also he sent Mance out to get the imposter Arya which would be helping Stannis and taking sides in a war. The going off to attack Ramsay was the straw that broke the camel's back.Though you can argue Ramsay did threaten to attack the nights watch, which Jon should have made absolutely clear, and that to protect the watch he had to go to war with the Boltons. Though I don't think they killed him cause of the wildlings because it makes sense to let them through, as you don't want thousands of wildlings becoming wights. I think his death is a good thing though, as he will be resurrected and reborn as Azor Ahai and would free him of his vows and leave him in line to become the heir of the North. It would progress the story and get rid of the boring plot of Jon trying to manage the nights watch. The next book better have some loving undead craziness in it and not page after page of one character traveling from one spot to the other or Dany being a loving idiot. It also better reveal Jon's mother, as in all likely he is the third Targ, and him being older and all would make him the heir to Westeros.
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Jul 18, 2011 03:15
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Master Kush posted:Hey I liked it just on the fact that they had coldhands and the children of the forest in it. Coldhands is bad rear end, I wonder who he is? Seriously, I think that guy read a different book from us. How the hell could Bran's storyline be drawn out? There were only 3 Bran chapters in the entire book! And I thought his chapters were some of the strongest in the book.
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Jul 18, 2011 03:17
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The nights watch should at least keep some of the bodies of the wights or those who have died who are going to turn into wights, chain them down, and send them to the major houses in Westeros. It'll be like "hey look, this whole kingdom is about to be invaded by an undead horde, stop your petty bullshit and get up here or their won't be a kingdom left".
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Jul 18, 2011 03:30
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Master Kush posted:It makes sense that some of the brothers from the nights watch turned on Jon because he basically forsaked his vows, which the penalty is death. In addition he housed that girl and jailed her pursuers which is outside of the nights watch's responsibilities. Also he sent Mance out to get the imposter Arya which would be helping Stannis and taking sides in a war. The going off to attack Ramsay was the straw that broke the camel's back.Though you can argue Ramsay did threaten to attack the nights watch, which Jon should have made absolutely clear, and that to protect the watch he had to go to war with the Boltons. Though I don't think they killed him cause of the wildlings because it makes sense to let them through, as you don't want thousands of wildlings becoming wights. Aegon's older than Jon. Remember that Rhaegar only got a bastard on Lyanna because Elia was too frail to give him any more children, and remember that infant "Aegon" was brought with his skull crushed in to Tywin about the same time that Jon was being born, if R+L=J is true.
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Jul 18, 2011 03:45
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Master Kush posted:The nights watch should at least keep some of the bodies of the wights or those who have died who are going to turn into wights, chain them down, and send them to the major houses in Westeros. It'll be like "hey look, this whole kingdom is about to be invaded by an undead horde, stop your petty bullshit and get up here or their won't be a kingdom left". They tried that with the hand of a wright way back when Tyrion was Hand. It didn't work so well.
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Jul 18, 2011 04:11
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I'm reading Dreamsong's right now and in Martin's first little introduction he drops "I was much better at starting stories then finishing them" I laughed and laughed
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Jul 18, 2011 04:28
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I loved it. There are themes I picked out that I haven't seen mentioned, and the first is the repetition of the word "monster" in nearly every POV. Mance's child is a named Monster. Tyrion has started to play the role of a monster, starting the book off by creepily leering at a sex slave, and constantly reminding himself and everyone he meets that he murdered his father. The dragons are referred to as monsters several times. Our new monster Robert Strong is introduced. Bran is becoming something a bit less human ... I was getting really creeped out by some of his behavior regarding Hodor. Also, the Children turned out creepy as hell, nothing like cute elves. By far the greatest monster in the book is Ramsay Bolton. Most of these monsters either are manifestations of power or were created by power. Power is probably the single biggest theme in ASoIaF. The whole series is a meditation on how a civilization build around a single throne is inherently destructive and prone to tyranny. The next thing I noticed was the repetition of some variation of the phrase "He was not wrong." This also appears in nearly every POV. Characters frequently don't feel comfortable with the advice or jusifications they are hearing, but they can't say exactly what's wrong with it. Barristan gets talked into taking some borderline dishonorable actions because he can't figure out where exactly they violate his code of ethics, but they still feel wrong to him. I expect this to bite him in the rear end later. Same with Jon - people keep asking him for things that aren't quite wrong but also don't feel right, and look what happens to him. Arya is talked into killing a dude because the Kindly Man's dogma is convincing and not technically wrong, but it's also not really justice. Quentyn - I think this may be the whole point of Quentyn. His whole story is tragic because he keeps having to do bad things for shaky reasons. He joins and betrays two different groups of cutthroat mercenaries and fights in battles that absolutely aren't his. He loses friends. Ultimately he is driven to the most foolhardy thing ever in trying to kidnap a dragon. Why? His sense of shame, really, his fear of coming back emptyhanded and facing his father's disappointment and his aunts' ridicule. There are no "right" options available to Quentyn. He can't win. Calef fucked around with this message at 04:54 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 04:51
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I felt like Quentyn was there, also, to prove the whole "words are wind" phrase that keeps getting repeated by everyone. He thought that the words of Dorne would convince Dany... and they didn't. They did absolutely nothing, as useless as the breeze.
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Jul 18, 2011 04:53
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not joseph stalin posted:Bael the Bard was a king beyond the wall who went south to steal a Stark daughter. Mance named himself Abel. Bael => Abel. Pretty cool. that's pretty awesome
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Jul 18, 2011 05:12
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mcable posted:AGOT: 4.4 stars A Dance With Dragons came out less than one week ago. It's star rating right now is almost completely meaningless.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:24
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So if Varys and Illyrio were raising Aegon the entire time, how come Illyrio didn't give Aegon the dragon eggs instead of Dany? It seems they have much more influence over him than Dany and it would have greatly supported his claim. Edit; did Illyrio suspect that the eggs would hatch into actual dragons? I've read that scene several times but I can't find anything to indicate either way. VaultAggie fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 05:27
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I have to wonder about Jon. We've seen that the Red God can heal with fire, but it leaves it victims burnt and scarred. But, if Jon really is a secret Targ maybe he can get the healing juice without the burnt exterior. It would fulfill the prophecy of Azor Ahai. Jon walking out of his own pyre also likens back to Dany's Fire Pyre transformation.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:35
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Can someone explain the Manderly's more I understand they were cool, but people saying their poo poo is the best thing since sliced bread.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:42
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Look up what the Rat Cook did (it's mentioned in ASOS somewhere around the red wedding) and you'll immediately know why Manderly is a badass. (It's because he killed the Freys and had them cooked into pies.) VaultAggie posted:So if Varys and Illyrio were raising Aegon the entire time, how come Illyrio didn't give Aegon the dragon eggs instead of Dany? It seems they have much more influence over him than Dany and it would have greatly supported his claim. It's doubtful Illyrio expected the eggs to do jack poo poo. Dragons have been dead for hundreds of years, nobody knows how the old Targs bred/raised them, the maesters have been deliberately erasing knowledge of this stuff from history. A lot of people theorize that Varys/Illyrio planned for the eggs to hatch, but I find it doubtful. Even more so now that we know Varys' bets have always been hedged on Aegon, not Dany/Viserys.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:45
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Tiger Crazy posted:Can someone explain the Manderly's more I understand they were cool, but people saying their poo poo is the best thing since sliced bread. In every book before this the Manderly's have been portrayed as fat and craven, everyone shits all over Wyman for being so huge he can't even ride on a horse. As of AFFC we thought Davos had been captured and killed by the Manderly's. As it turns out, not only are the Manderly's not that craven, they are infact super badass motherfuckers. He lets a bunch of freys into his court, lets them make their jokes and cracks, while simultaneously plotting to put the Starks back into power backed by his huge loving fleet of warships. He gets his son back, then he kills said freys after clearing the obligation of guest rights, bakes them into pies, and feeds them to all the Northern lords who have turned their back on the Starks. "… but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.” Basically, the North is loving hardcore and Manderly, despite being seen as maybe a southern northerner, is made of sterner stuff than most.
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Jul 18, 2011 05:49
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The best is that he doesn't just bake them into pies and serve them. He eats the pie himself, has seconds and thirds, and just has a good old time committing cannibalism.
SmugDogMillionaire fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 05:54
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ADWD really shows how hardcore the North is compared to the south. I really like Bran's weirwood vision, I was really intrigued by the sacrifice at the end.
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Jul 18, 2011 06:08
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Pedro De Heredia posted:A Dance With Dragons came out less than one week ago. It's star rating right now is almost completely meaningless. My point was to compare the critical acclaim for ADWD to the initial fan reactions. By your line of thinking then the raves from the media is also almost completely meaningless. Consider that the hype for ASOIAF is at an all-time high right now with the HBO series, the huge boost in sales for the first 4 books (4 million this year, as someone in this thread pointed out), and the excitement surrounding the release of ADWD. Like I compared with Indiana Jones, I think ADWD is coasting on the goodwill and positive word of mouth of the rest of the series. Else, I can't figure out why there is such overwhelming critical acclaim for a book that is a fairly big step down from the first three.
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Jul 18, 2011 06:31
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mcable posted:My point was to compare the critical acclaim for ADWD to the initial fan reactions. By your line of thinking then the raves from the media is also almost completely meaningless. Consider that the hype for ASOIAF is at an all-time high right now with the HBO series, the huge boost in sales for the first 4 books (4 million this year, as someone in this thread pointed out), and the excitement surrounding the release of ADWD. For a lot of reasons -- Incredible writing, awesome worldbuilding, interesting new themes introduced (disease, new Targaryens, winter ACTUALLY coming), and a lot of awesome setup for what is no doubt going to be an incredible sixth entry. I, for one, can definitely understand the overwhelming critical acclaim.
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Jul 18, 2011 06:34
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Once you take away the long wait (which wouldnt be so bad if he didnt write the "Meanwhile, Back at the Wall..." And blog about football) its a solid book, the definition of a page turner, has interesting themes, and is better than, and even at its lowest at least on the same level as most of the other fantasy out there.
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Jul 18, 2011 06:50
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Scoobi posted:In every book before this the Manderly's have been portrayed as fat and craven, everyone shits all over Wyman for being so huge he can't even ride on a horse. As of AFFC we thought Davos had been captured and killed by the Manderly's. As it turns out, not only are the Manderly's not that craven, they are infact super badass motherfuckers. He lets a bunch of freys into his court, lets them make their jokes and cracks, while simultaneously plotting to put the Starks back into power backed by his huge loving fleet of warships. He gets his son back, then he kills said freys after clearing the obligation of guest rights, bakes them into pies, and feeds them to all the Northern lords who have turned their back on the Starks. What the hell chapter was that? I missed that completely.
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Jul 18, 2011 07:03
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Finished it last night, after the 6 year wait (10 years for my favourites) I came away disappointed. Granted I have really enjoyed the series including AFFC and I did enjoy this book but I do not see where Martin is going with the series. I can see the big hitting points but he is still chucking in more and more characters and it just seems to be one giant juggling act, he has so many plot lines that need to be closed down. I know Jon is going to be resurrected but it seemed when I read the book, I could almost hear Martin thinking "Oh no I haven't killed off a fan favourite yet, Jon will do!". The whole Slavers Bay bit was pretty dire, why he has decided to concentrate and focus on this area for so long I do not know. Overall I think a lot of the criticism of AFFC can be directed at ADWD, lots o words but very little movement. I do have to agree that Manderlys pies did make me chuckle, especially when he asked Ryder to play the Rat King song.
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Jul 18, 2011 07:14
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Fried Chicken posted:The only thing that can stop them is dragons. Not the only thing of course, as Westeros didn't have dragons the last time. Obsidian still works too, as do fire and swords (in lieu of shotguns) against the wights. Wildfyre would be pretty useful too I'd wager. But having a dragon is like bringing an A-10 to the Siege of Vienna (1584).
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Jul 18, 2011 07:16
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