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Comrade Flynn posted:What the hell chapter was that? I missed that completely. It's all hints and subtext, very easy to miss. It's easier to miss than, for example, Theon being a eunuch, which I predict will be the new "Loras and Renly are gay?!?!"
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Jul 18, 2011 07:22
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mcable posted:Like I compared with Indiana Jones, I think ADWD is coasting on the goodwill and positive word of mouth of the rest of the series. Else, I can't figure out why there is such overwhelming critical acclaim for a book that is a fairly big step down from the first three. 2/3 loving awesome + 1/3 boring, medicore still makes a pretty great book. The Blackwater and Tyrion/Arya aside ACoK was worse in my opinion. The major complaint about ADWD for me is the lack of a climax/payoff.
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Jul 18, 2011 07:29
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Seriously, I think that guy read a different book from us. How the hell could Bran's storyline be drawn out? There were only 3 Bran chapters in the entire book! And I thought his chapters were some of the strongest in the book.
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Jul 18, 2011 07:37
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Decius posted:2/3 loving awesome + 1/3 boring, medicore still makes a pretty great book. The Blackwater and Tyrion/Arya aside ACoK was worse in my opinion. The major complaint about ADWD for me is the lack of a climax/payoff. I always thought I was alone on this. I feel like ACOK is the weakest of the series by far.
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Jul 18, 2011 07:52
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Azure_Horizon posted:I always thought I was alone on this. I feel like ACOK is the weakest of the series by far. Yeah, ACOK is personally my least favorite. The first half of it is a goddamn drag to get through, first read or reread. Storm is still the best in the series, but ADWD contains probably the best actual prose -- it's just that it's still mostly setup.
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Jul 18, 2011 08:03
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dumb brunette posted:Yeah, ACOK is personally my least favorite. The first half of it is a goddamn drag to get through, first read or reread. Storm is still the best in the series, but ADWD contains probably the best actual prose -- it's just that it's still mostly setup. I agree. Storm is pretty much the best fantasy book ever written, buuuuuuuut, with all the setup we got the past two books I really expect Winds of Winter to top it.
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Jul 18, 2011 08:07
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Robert Strong going to demolish a person, Tormund talks about his cock some more
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Jul 18, 2011 08:27
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:The best is that he doesn't just bake them into pies and serve them. He eats the pie himself, has seconds and thirds, and just has a good old time committing cannibalism. My favorite Manderly part was actually in their very first meeting with the Freys + Davos. You can just tell that Manderly is boiling up under his cool facade while one of the Freys is talking, about to blow up, and instead he just says something like "Aye, the Starks were vile dogs. Well said."
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Jul 18, 2011 10:45
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Just finished. I liked it! All of the character arcs were interesting, except Tyrion. His first few chapters made it seem like he was becoming scary-misogynist, but that felt like it got dropped as his chapters went on. I don't see how it tied into his later chapters. Arya becoming the warrior/assassin she wanted but starting to lose her identity in the process is sad. After Storm, Feast and Dance have felt slow. Feast was kind of a chore because the new characters didn't get enough chapters to themselves to become interesting, and all the other characters weren't in the book. I'd like Feast more if we didn't have to wait so long for Dance (though I understand how long it takes to write 400k words). Dance felt the same as GOT/ACOK to me. With all the interesting cliffhangers, I'm guessing Winds will be more closer to Storm in terms of poo poo happening. Star Guarded fucked around with this message at 11:21 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 10:53
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So, any bets on the asinine and frustrating way Barristan the Bold is going to die in the next book? He's being way too cool for GRRM universe to live, so I'd assume he's going to die of common dysentery... or get snacked on by dragons while Dany watches but is unable to intervene. Also, does anyone find it a little bit creepy that GRRM is writing new books at the same time while HBO will be making them into TV series? Some actor looking at GRRM wrong at the set? Uh-oh, next book his or her character is going to die of humiliation and/or buttrape. 
pigdog fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 11:03
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Star Guarded posted:All of the character arcs were interesting, except Tyrion. His first few chapters made it seem like he was becoming scary-misogynist, but that felt like it got dropped as his chapters went on. I don't see how it tied into his later chapters. I really liked Tyrion's early chapters where they were in the boat, going down the Rhoyne. It was like you were riding along the history of the world. All the stuff that was like legends and thousand-year old history in Westeros, well here it is. Just some really well-written stuff, if you enjoy the worldbuilding aspect of the story.
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Jul 18, 2011 11:11
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I thought Dance with Dragons turned out great, but I agree it could really use a climactic scene for even just one of the plot threads. Either give us Dany's destruction of the Yunkai, defense of her city, or eventful departure for Westeros, or give us the Stannis-Bolton Winter Fell battle or expand our window into the night of Barristan's revolt. As weak as CoK is, the assault on King's Landing was terrific and we haven't had a big set piece like that in awhile. Feels like in the last two books Martin has over relied on the same formula for big events: build up to the inciting moment and later cut to a little while after everything settles down. What I love about that King's Landing battle was the multiple, scattered, semi-concurrent narratives of the different characters--Tyrion, Sansa, Davos--and their unique experiences providing an encompassing, tense, epic perspective into the invasion.
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Jul 18, 2011 11:20
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literallyincredible posted:John Scalzi (who I've actually never read) has a post with some perspective on Dance. The problem is that there's a lot of words that didn't need to be written. All the stupid filler Meereen politics poo poo, Tyrion etc. getting to Meereen travelogues, all of that was incredibly boring and didn't really advance the plot much. All of that could have been mentioned as an aside or had one chapter maximum devoted to it. Cutting them out would have made for a better book, would have led to the book coming out earlier, and everyone would be happy. There's some good stuff in it but overall this book was really bad. mila kunis fucked around with this message at 11:37 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 11:23
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lapse posted:My favorite Manderly part was actually in their very first meeting with the Freys + Davos. I'll see that and raise you this Wyman Manderly posted:"So young," said Wyman Manderly. "Though mayhaps this is a blessing. Had he lived, he would have grown up to be a Frey. Putting out sick burns while eating breakfast, that's our man Manderly.
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Jul 18, 2011 11:25
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pigdog posted:Also, does anyone find it a little bit creepy that GRRM is writing new books at the same time while HBO will be making them into TV series? Some actor looking at GRRM wrong at the set? Uh-oh, next book his or her character is going to die of humiliation and/or buttrape. It's only creepy because it's GRRM.
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Jul 18, 2011 11:28
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serewit posted:I'll see that and raise you this Weirdly, I loved Cersei's chapters in this one and wanted her to escape or something. How to make the audience like a character they hated before: cripple them, remove their ability to be a threat to the other likable characters, and introduce new characters that the audience hates even more.
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Jul 18, 2011 11:33
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Why does everyone think Dany's going to head for Westeros from Meereen? I'm pretty sure she's got to get to Asshai first.
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Jul 18, 2011 11:35
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Scoobi posted:ADWD really shows how hardcore the North is compared to the south. I really like Bran's weirwood vision, I was really intrigued by the sacrifice at the end. What sacrifice are you referring to?
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Jul 18, 2011 11:55
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I just thought up a crazy theory for what will come out of Jon's death. What if Stannis really is dead, Melisandre does the breath of life thing on Jon, then uses her glammor powers to make him look like Stannis. Melisandre herself said every time she tried to see Stannis' future she saw Jon and the whole rattleshirt/Mance thing was way too anti-climactic to be anything but a demonstration of that power for future reference.
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Jul 18, 2011 12:02
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hampig posted:It's all hints and subtext, very easy to miss. I feel so dumb, I missed all of these. Where does it imply that Theon was gelded?
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Jul 18, 2011 12:13
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Lenin Stimpy posted:What sacrifice are you referring to? I'm more interested in the guy cutting weirdwood arrows, really. Jimbola posted:I feel so dumb, I missed all of these. Where does it imply that Theon was gelded?
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Jul 18, 2011 12:14
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I really want the show to get to this book so I can see Alfie Allen doing the Theon chapters 
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Jul 18, 2011 12:19
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Jimbola posted:I feel so dumb, I missed all of these. Where does it imply that Theon was gelded? Xander77 posted:When he starts listing stuff Ramsay removed, he ends with "and that... other thing". And then after that there is lots of "but we know you aren't a man, Reek", then when he thinks he might have to take off his clothes in front of people he freaks the gently caress out and then he's all "but I can't..." with Jeyne Pool. I love that there are things you can puzzle out before they're made explicit if you're lucky/attentive. My biggest AHA moment was realizing that Abel and his girls were Mance and the spearwives before the reveal, I really powered through the Theon chapters after that. Even things I completely missed like the Rat Cook are very nearly as satisfying when pointed out afterwards. hampig fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 12:51
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:I thought Dance with Dragons turned out great, but I agree it could really use a climactic scene for even just one of the plot threads. Either give us Dany's destruction of the Yunkai, defense of her city, or eventful departure for Westeros, or give us the Stannis-Bolton Winter Fell battle or expand our window into the night of Barristan's revolt. This is what I meant to say in my wildcards effortpost. Spot on how I felt.
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Jul 18, 2011 12:55
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EvilTobaccoExec posted:As weak as CoK is, the assault on King's Landing was terrific and we haven't had a big set piece like that in awhile. Feels like in the last two books Martin has over relied on the same formula for big events: build up to the inciting moment and later cut to a little while after everything settles down. What I love about that King's Landing battle was the multiple, scattered, semi-concurrent narratives of the different characters--Tyrion, Sansa, Davos--and their unique experiences providing an encompassing, tense, epic perspective into the invasion. There have been mentions in interviews that he didn't know where to stop, there was a chance Dance might have gone further. The situation in Meereen is poised for something very much like the Battle of the Blackwater though, as people have pointed out - Victarion arriving on ship, Barristan on foot, Tyrion with the free companies and Dany as a *WILDCARD*. I think Jon's arc definitely has a climax though. His story is quite a steady progression, with everything he has done as Lord Commander culminating in his getting stabbed. Maybe the only thing that stops it feeling like a true climax is that there is no Sansa-looks-at-a-head-on-a-stick chapter afterwards, so it feels more like a cliffhanger. I personally wouldn't have said no to another Melisandre chapter after that 
hampig fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 13:07
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hampig posted:Even things I completely missed like the Rat Cook are very nearly as satisfying when pointed out afterwards. So the pie that Manderly was eating for breakfast at Winterfell was made out of Freys? I remember the story about the Rat Cook, but for some reason I thought it was something that happened in th epast. So Manderly gets his son back, kills the obnoxious Frey boys, cooks them, and then serves them as breakfast to their family and lords? loving hard core if that's true. My dad took a nifty approach during his last read through. Instead of just reading the book, he read all of a character's chapters first, then moved to a different character.
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Jul 18, 2011 13:36
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^^^^ That seems like it just wouldn't work so well. If you read Dany before Quentyn, you know they will get to Meereen. Jon before Asha and you know that Stannis won't get to Winterfell (at least in this book). Tyrion before Dany and I think you get told most of what happens in Meereen up to Drogon's flight. I'm sure there's more. On Theon: I'm currently on the theory that Ramsay severed or otherwise maimed his penis, but left him his balls. This explains a little better why he said he still wanted to gently caress the spearwife (though it doesn't quite explain the "yet dared not" part), plus it would just be that extra topping of cruelty that the Bastard could like. NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 13:39
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whowhatwhere posted:Why does everyone think Dany's going to head for Westeros from Meereen? I'm pretty sure she's got to get to Asshai first. While I would love to see Asshai (as long as it isn't as boring as Meereen), I don't think it's possible to do it and her going to Westeros and gently caress poo poo up there in just two books. Of course, it could always be that Dany never actually goes to Westeros and Jon Snow & Westeros deals with all the Others-stuff themselves, while Dany erects her little South-Eastern Empire and goes "screw Westeros, nobody wants that cold poo poo-hole anyway". Littlefinger becomes the King on the Iron Throne. His reign was long and peaceful, the whores plentiful, his enemies died quickly.
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Jul 18, 2011 13:41
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NihilCredo posted:^^^^ That seems like it just wouldn't work so well. If you read Dany before Quentyn, you know they will get to Meereen. Jon before Asha and you know that Stannis won't get to Winterfell (at least in this book). Tyrion before Dany and I think you get told most of what happens in Meereen up to Drogon's flight. I'm sure there's more. Yeah, I didn't say it would work, just it was interesting. This was his second or third reread, though, so he already knew all that stuff. Decius posted:Littlefinger becomes the King on the Iron Throne. His reign was long and peaceful, the whores plentiful, his enemies died quickly. Littlefinger's answer to every problem: wine, food, whores. King4Lyfe
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Jul 18, 2011 13:46
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NihilCredo posted:On Theon: I'm currently on the theory that Ramsay severed or otherwise maimed his penis, but left him his balls. This explains a little better why he said he still wanted to gently caress the spearwife (though it doesn't quite explain the "yet dared not" part), plus it would just be that extra topping of cruelty that the Bastard could like.  ) while leaving the balls seems like something Ramsay would do.I always thought that the 'To go west you must go east, and to reach the light you must pass beneath the Shadow' meant that Dany would go to Asshai and then travel east from there, reaching Westeros from the west by circumventing the globe. Then she can torch Casterly Rock or whatever. Kainser fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 13:51
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Decius posted:While I would love to see Asshai (as long as it isn't as boring as Meereen), I don't think it's possible to do it and her going to Westeros and gently caress poo poo up there in just two books. Of course, it could always be that Dany never actually goes to Westeros and Jon Snow & Westeros deals with all the Others-stuff themselves, while Dany erects her little South-Eastern Empire and goes "screw Westeros, nobody wants that cold poo poo-hole anyway". Littlefinger becomes the King on the Iron Throne. His reign was long and peaceful, the whores plentiful, his enemies died quickly. Now that Dany is riding Drogon I think it's plausible for her to get to Asshai and back pretty fast if Martin wanted it to happen. Asshai has been built up too much for Dany not to go there.
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Jul 18, 2011 13:57
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Just finished the fucker last night, and just finished this thread. Was gonna post my thoughts, but it all seems to have been covered here pretty thoroughly already so gently caress that.. Things that I can't figure out though, after the 'peace' in Meereen is signed, why is the Yunkai army still besieging the city? And why is the Wilding princess Val so important that everyone shits their collective breeches when Jon lets her go? Edit: Oh, and what was the significance of the Bravvosi banker dude riding into Stannis camp with Theon exactly? Also, I thought Cerseis walk 'o shame was brilliantly done, even with the creepy pussy shaving scene beforehand. Even made me feel sorry for the crazy bitch, especially when she breaks and ends up crawling on all fours whilst the cities peasantry engage in a wonderfully brutal schadenfreude. And Tyrions boat ride was cool as hell, especially when they had to go under the bridge with the falling stone disease monster fellows. mcable posted:What the gently caress kind of knot was there in Mereen if this is the "solution". Mereen is as big a clusterfuck as ever with the city still being sieged, two dragons on the loose, Tyrion/Victarion/Marwyn still haven't meet Dany, and Dany making GBS threads around in the middle of the Dothraki sea. Yeah, this puzzled me as well. I kept waiting for the incredibly twisty, tightly plotted series of events that caused an experienced, talented author such problems and it was only right before the loving end that I realised that it wasn't coming. Most of these characters never even interacted with each other, it felt disjointed. It was Dany and the Meereenese with their politicking and everyone else accomplishing a whole lot of nothing. And how hard can it be to get Important Character A to Significant Location B? "Ser Olliver Fancypants stepped off the ship. It had been a hard, long journey and he was glad to be in the port of Pancake Harbour, where a man could drink to excess and pay for sexual congress." Done. BeigeJacket fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 14:46
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The Bravossi dude was a rep from the Iron Bank, who is trying to collect on the debt that the throne owes them. He met up with Jon right before the scene with Stannis (which is why he had some crows as escorts), and I believe he popped up in AFFC too. Cersei shuts his rear end down, though.
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Jul 18, 2011 15:08
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It occurred to me that Quentyn Martell's life story could have been drastically changed if his foster father had let him hang that classic Despair® demotivator poster on his room wall:
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Jul 18, 2011 15:11
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BeigeJacket posted:Just finished the fucker last night, and just finished this thread. Was gonna post my thoughts, but it all seems to have been covered here pretty thoroughly already so gently caress that.. Stannis' men think of her the same way they think of noble women from the seven kingdoms, that marrying her will bind the houses together. They don't realise that beyond the wall leadership comes from proving skill, not from blood, and that really Val, while respected, isn't any high ranking wildling.
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Jul 18, 2011 15:13
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BeigeJacket posted:And why is the Wilding princess Val so important that everyone shits their collective breeches when Jon lets her go? Val's not actually important, it's just that Stannis/Selyse take Westerosi notions of lineage and birthright for granted, and she's used to illustrate the fact that most of Stannis's men, and most of the Night's Watch too outside Jon, don't really understand the free folk and can't pull themselves out of Westerosi prejudices.
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Jul 18, 2011 15:14
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EC posted:The Bravossi dude was a rep from the Iron Bank, who is trying to collect on the debt that the throne owes them. He met up with Jon right before the scene with Stannis (which is why he had some crows as escorts), and I believe he popped up in AFFC too. Cersei shuts his rear end down, though. Sure I got all that, but I can't see why him riding into Stannis lines (other than as a Theon delivery device) is in any way important enough to end the whole (first person) Winterfell/Stannis section of the book. Any theories on what happened to Lord Manderly? The Frey (?) dude slices him up after his splendid iceburn, but only "cuts through 3 of his four chins". IIRC some of his guys are trying to patch him up, and then Roose calls the army and marches out to meet Stannis (or whoever Stannis guy is banging the drums outside Winterfell, an Umber I think) and thats the last we hear of that.
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Jul 18, 2011 15:17
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BeigeJacket posted:Sure I got all that, but I can't see why him riding into Stannis lines (other than as a Theon delivery device) is in any way important enough to end the whole (first person) Winterfell/Stannis section of the book. It's indeed the other Umber who is just banging the drums outside Winterfell. The only important part the banker has is if he is aware that Arnolf Karstark is on Bolton's side, and thus can warn Stannis. But if forgot if the banker left before Alys Karstark arrived at Castle Black.
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Jul 18, 2011 15:26
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The banker will lend Stannis so much gold that he can hire tons of mercenaries and win the war 
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Jul 18, 2011 15:28
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Kainser posted:The banker will lend Stannis so much gold that he can hire tons of mercenaries and win the war The true ending is where the Braavosi come back to collect on their debts after engaging in risky and speculative lending practices in the Free Cities, find out the Westerosi overinflated their assets, and cause castle prices to depreciate so much that the Dothraki roll in, buy all the castles, and spend the rest of their days having horse drag-races up and down the south. It was all an extended metaphor for the housing bubble! 
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Jul 18, 2011 15:33
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