Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Smiling Jack
Dec 2, 2001

I sucked a dick for bus fare and then I walked home.

BeigeJacket posted:

Sure I got all that, but I can't see why him riding into Stannis lines (other than as a Theon delivery device) is in any way important enough to end the whole (first person) Winterfell/Stannis section of the book.

Cersi told The Iron Bank to gently caress off. The King's Landing faction os now broke. The Iron Bank is going to support Stannis as long as Stannis promises to pay up when he wins.

Stannis just went from being broke, to having access to a shitload of cash. Bet Sallador Saan feels like a dickhead now.

It's a major signifier in that the IB thinks Stannis can win, and now that the IB has yanked financial support from Tommen and given it to Stannis, Stannis has some major advantages.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Limp Wristed Limey
Sep 7, 2010

by Lowtax

serewit posted:

The true ending is where the Braavosi come back to collect on their debts after engaging in risky and speculative lending practices in the Free Cities, find out the Westerosi overinflated their assets, and cause castle prices to depreciate so much that the Dothraki roll in, buy all the castles, and spend the rest of their days having horse drag-races up and down the south.

It was all an extended metaphor for the housing bubble! :ssh:

Ha, what will happen is Jon is going to be rezzed and glamoured to look like Stannis, win the war but tell the bank that he has no money to give them. Someone in the bank will say a prayer in a certain temple and we know who the debt collector will be.

EC
Jul 10, 2001

The Legend
Isn't it implied that the Iron Bank has resources to make princes and kings disappear? I still can't believe Cersei told that dude to gently caress off back to the Free Cities.

BeigeJacket
Jul 21, 2005

Smiling Jack posted:

Cersi told The Iron Bank to gently caress off. The King's Landing faction os now broke. The Iron Bank is going to support Stannis as long as Stannis promises to pay up when he wins.

Stannis just went from being broke, to having access to a shitload of cash. Bet Sallador Saan feels like a dickhead now.

It's a major signifier in that the IB thinks Stannis can win, and now that the IB has yanked financial support from Tommen and given it to Stannis, Stannis has some major advantages.

Ah, that makes sense thanks. Wouldn't say the Kingslanding-ers are broke broke tho, in the epilogue Kevans mentions how the Lannisters will have to cover their debts from now on, and they are rich as gently caress.

Also, gently caress the haters I like Daario, dudes got his fancy blue hair, a company of bros to ride around with and a smoking hot queen who can't get enough of him. He's the one of the few people in this whole mess who just flat out loves what he does and gets a kick out of life.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
Wasn't the party with the Iron Bank guy also supposed to be carrying word that one of Stannis' people was planning to betray him?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

EC posted:

Isn't it implied that the Iron Bank has resources to make princes and kings disappear? I still can't believe Cersei told that dude to gently caress off back to the Free Cities.

I think the quote was more "regular banks force Princes to step down, the Iron Bank makes new Princes out of thin air to take the throne".

Scipiotik
Mar 2, 2004

"I would have won the race but for that."

computer parts posted:

I think the quote was more "regular banks force Princes to step down, the Iron Bank makes new Princes out of thin air to take the throne".

The gist of it that I remember is that when normal banks have princes default the banker offs himself, with the Iron bank they just get a new prince.

silly
Jul 15, 2004

"I saw it get by the mound, and I saw Superman at second base."
OK so a few questions that stemmed from the epilogue. The whole Varys/Illyrio conspiracy is now well-documented and it's clear that they are backing a Targaryen restoration. Varys bleats a lot about doing it for "the realm" but do we have any idea of what his and Illyrio's true motives are or are we stuck with speculation at this point?

And on a related note, what is Littlefinger's game besides setting himself up in a better position and trying to marry Sansa?

Limp Wristed Limey
Sep 7, 2010

by Lowtax

silly posted:

OK so a few questions that stemmed from the epilogue. The whole Varys/Illyrio conspiracy is now well-documented and it's clear that they are backing a Targaryen restoration. Varys bleats a lot about doing it for "the realm" but do we have any idea of what his and Illyrio's true motives are or are we stuck with speculation at this point?

And on a related note, what is Littlefinger's game besides setting himself up in a better position and trying to marry Sansa?

Varys and Illyrio obviously think that the Targs will do a better job than the current lot and they will be very well rewarded for what they have done. Seems like pretty good motivation to me.

When Littlefinger is finished he will have direct and indirect control of the North, the Vale and Harrenhal and all its lands, that is a big chunk of Westoros.

Ecco the Dolphin
Aug 7, 2004

bloop bloop

silly posted:

OK so a few questions that stemmed from the epilogue. The whole Varys/Illyrio conspiracy is now well-documented and it's clear that they are backing a Targaryen restoration. Varys bleats a lot about doing it for "the realm" but do we have any idea of what his and Illyrio's true motives are or are we stuck with speculation at this point?

And on a related note, what is Littlefinger's game besides setting himself up in a better position and trying to marry Sansa?

I think Ilyrio's plans go no farther than restoring the Targs, but I think that Varys's motives go much deeper, and he knows a lot more than he lets on even to Ilyrio. Varys is going to come out being an unequivocally good guy at the end, I'm calling it. I think he's well aware of the threat of the Others, he knows that they're awakening now and why, and he's setting up events to allow a victory against them.

Sexpansion
Mar 22, 2003

DELETED

literallyincredible posted:

Yeah the sales figures are sick. So are the reviews. The New York Times review is basically the most over the top rave I've ever seen (emphasis added):


I mean jesus. I loved the book and even I think its a bit extreme.

Still, all bullshit aside, purely from a cultural phenomena standpoint, with the HBO show with at least one (and likely more, with how huge this book is) season to come, this has the potential to be like a Da Vinci code/Twilight/Girl with the Dragon Tattoo level hit. I'd mention Harry Potter but honestly nothing is ever gonna touch HP sales figures. Still, George is in good company, saleswise at least.

I am a huge Martin fanboy and I pretty much agree with even the most ridiculous praise, but I think it's silly not to recognize that if there weren't a TV show, the book wouldn't be getting all these rave reviews. It's the increased cultural awareness that's driving this, not the quality of the books.

Eej
Jun 17, 2007

HEAVYARMS

pigdog posted:

So, any bets on the asinine and frustrating way Barristan the Bold is going to die in the next book? He's being way too cool for GRRM universe to live, so I'd assume he's going to die of common dysentery... or get snacked on by dragons while Dany watches but is unable to intervene.


Also, does anyone find it a little bit creepy that GRRM is writing new books at the same time while HBO will be making them into TV series? Some actor looking at GRRM wrong at the set? Uh-oh, next book his or her character is going to die of humiliation and/or buttrape. :smug:

He's going to die at the end of Dream of Spring of old age in his retirement home which is exactly the opposite way he wanted to die.

OperaMouse
Oct 30, 2010

Sexpansion posted:

I am a huge Martin fanboy and I pretty much agree with even the most ridiculous praise, but I think it's silly not to recognize that if there weren't a TV show, the book wouldn't be getting all these rave reviews. It's the increased cultural awareness that's driving this, not the quality of the books.

The story and depth of the world in the books are pretty much unique in the fantasy genre. It also has a low enough actual fantasy content (no Elves and wizard casting fireballs) that it appeals to a lot of people not normally interested in the fantasy genre.

The writing itself indeed leaves much to be desired.

kazil
Jul 24, 2005

A fancy little mouse🐁!

Ecco the Dolphin posted:

I think Ilyrio's plans go no farther than restoring the Targs, but I think that Varys's motives go much deeper, and he knows a lot more than he lets on even to Ilyrio. Varys is going to come out being an unequivocally good guy at the end, I'm calling it. I think he's well aware of the threat of the Others, he knows that they're awakening now and why, and he's setting up events to allow a victory against them.

I think you are completely wrong. These two are working some kind of angle. Illyrio has spent a fortune to get things where they are. Remember, he gave Dany 3 dragon's eggs, which are worth a handsome price alone. Then, he pays off the Golden Company to meet up with Dany. He's invested quite a bit into the raising and education of Aegon I would imagine.

Varys, on the other hand, has been in Westeros since mad king Aerys. If his entire goal was to protect the realm from the Others, I doubt he'd let it go to poo poo right as they reach the realm.

These fuckers are up to something big. Pentos, maybe? Seems small game still. Maybe they want dragons themselves, and will betray Dany.

Scipiotik
Mar 2, 2004

"I would have won the race but for that."
I agree, he isn't a great writer, but he is pretty good at creating an interesting world, and the TV shows have the added bonus of time and budget constraints, so I'm hopeful that after seeing their take on the first book they'll be able to do a great job culling out all the unnecessary poo poo (I don't think we'll see half of the POV characters spend half of season 5 with their thumbs up their asses on boats traveling to Mereen).

Sexpansion
Mar 22, 2003

DELETED

OperaMouse posted:


The writing itself indeed leaves much to be desired.

See I don't even agree with this criticism, but no matter how good the books are, they wouldn't be turning into a cultural phenomenon without the TV show.

Roark
Dec 1, 2009

A moderate man - a violently moderate man.

OperaMouse posted:

The story and depth of the world in the books are pretty much unique in the fantasy genre. It also has a low enough actual fantasy content (no Elves and wizard casting fireballs) that it appeals to a lot of people not normally interested in the fantasy genre.

The writing itself indeed leaves much to be desired.

Martin isn't Faulkner, but he's still light years ahead of 99% of contemporary sci-fi and fantasy writers when it comes to writing.

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post

EC posted:

Isn't it implied that the Iron Bank has resources to make princes and kings disappear? I still can't believe Cersei told that dude to gently caress off back to the Free Cities.

Cersei defaulting on the Iron Bank loans, arming the priesthood, and alienating the Tyrells are three facially obvious "she's going to regret this" mistakes, and she makes them at full speed

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



A) A better prose writer than Tolkien isn't even praise to be damned with.

B) Can anyone explained what's going on with the guards in Quentyn's final chapter? The first couple stand aside, but the others fight. What's up with that?

Aurubin
Mar 17, 2011

This is a sort lemoncakes esque question but do people actually eat lampreys? Lamprey pie seems to be a perennial favorite on either side of the Narrow Sea.

Roark
Dec 1, 2009

A moderate man - a violently moderate man.

Aurubin posted:

This is a sort lemoncakes esque question but do people actually eat lampreys? Lamprey pie seems to be a perennial favorite on either side of the Narrow Sea.

Nowadays, in coastal southern France and Spain, yeah, it's a common dish. Historically, they were also eaten by the upper classes throughout Europe during the middle ages.

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post

Xander77 posted:

A) A better prose writer than Tolkien isn't even praise to be damned with.


No poo poo. I don't know the answer to "man this guy's writing could use some polish" is "well, he's better than most fantasy writers!"

Hey great, he's better than the guys who write dime store check out stuff with dragons and busty maidens on the front. He's also probably better than (most? all?) fan fic writers.

Xander77 posted:


B) Can anyone explained what's going on with the guards in Quentyn's final chapter? The first couple stand aside, but the others fight. What's up with that?

Barristan and the leader (Shazkakakha? or whatever?) sent their own guys to secure the dragons as a part of the coup, and they knew that Quentyn and his group weren't a part of the plan

Decius
Oct 14, 2005

Ramrod XTreme

Sexpansion posted:

I am a huge Martin fanboy and I pretty much agree with even the most ridiculous praise, but I think it's silly not to recognize that if there weren't a TV show, the book wouldn't be getting all these rave reviews. It's the increased cultural awareness that's driving this, not the quality of the books.

His stuff wouldn't be reviewed by a lot of mainstream media if it wasn't for the show, that's for sure.

Roark posted:

Martin isn't Faulkner, but he's still light years ahead of 99% of contemporary sci-fi and fantasy writers when it comes to writing.

Put it at 80 %. Abercrombie, Lynch (if he writes something), Bakker (love him or hate him), Sanderson, Wolfe, Guy Gavriel Kay are some I would put into the same league, even if their scope isn't as epic.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
Lamprey pie from wikipedia:

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Lenin Stimpy
Sep 9, 2009

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Did anyone catch the little hint in Cersei's last chapter about how Littlefinger probably told Joffrey to kill Ned?

Here is the quote from the chapter I'm referring to:
"I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert's brothers."

My partner pointed this out for me just now, and although it isn't explicit, Gurm likes to hide stuff like this everywhere.

Azure_Horizon
Mar 27, 2010

by Reene

Xander77 posted:

A) A better prose writer than Tolkien isn't even praise to be damned with.

B) Can anyone explained what's going on with the guards in Quentyn's final chapter? The first couple stand aside, but the others fight. What's up with that?

Well, yeah, he's not a great writer if we're putting him up against the greats, but he's by far the best in the genre, approaching levels of contemporary fiction masterpieces.

However, AFFC/ADWD's writing is superb.

Ecco the Dolphin
Aug 7, 2004

bloop bloop

Lenin Stimpy posted:

Did anyone catch the little hint in Cersei's last chapter about how Littlefinger probably told Joffrey to kill Ned?

Here is the quote from the chapter I'm referring to:
"I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert's brothers."

My partner pointed this out for me just now, and although it isn't explicit, Gurm likes to hide stuff like this everywhere.

How does that quote carry that implication? I don't follow. Are you saying he did it knowing that it would lead to Sansa being freed up? Because that seems like kind of a stretch.

Kainser
Apr 27, 2010

O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow
I think it's supposed to be "Petyr realizes that he will have no chance at getting Sansa if there isn't a war"->"Petyr tells Joffrey that sending Ned to the wall would be cowardly as hell and people would laugh at his womanly heart or whatever so that there will be a war". But that quote doesn't seem imply that so I dunno.

b0lt
Apr 29, 2005

withak posted:

Lamprey pie from wikipedia:



quote:

Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was making GBS threads brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water.

pigdog
Apr 23, 2004

by Smythe

Aurubin posted:

This is a sort lemoncakes esque question but do people actually eat lampreys? Lamprey pie seems to be a perennial favorite on either side of the Narrow Sea.
Dunno about pies but around here they eat them roasted.

It has very fatty meat and no bones (just some cartilage). Not a big surprise it used to be a delicacy back in the day.

Smiling Jack
Dec 2, 2001

I sucked a dick for bus fare and then I walked home.

Also Littlefinger hated Ned and had quite a bit to do with starting the whole war by falsely implicating Tyrion.


Oh god I am actually discussing the books instead of reading winne the pooh/jamie slashfic what happened

Ecco the Dolphin
Aug 7, 2004

bloop bloop
Yeah I mean it doesn't seem like an implausible theory just looking at the characters, I just don't see how that quote has anything to do with it.

Kainser
Apr 27, 2010

O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow
You know what would have been great? A single Petyr chapter after the red wedding where we get to see him reacting to Catelyn being murdered :smith:

e; Typing that made me realize that Littlefinger probably hates the Frey's. That should be fun, what with him being the liege lord of the riverlands.

kazil
Jul 24, 2005

A fancy little mouse🐁!

Lenin Stimpy posted:

Did anyone catch the little hint in Cersei's last chapter about how Littlefinger probably told Joffrey to kill Ned?

Here is the quote from the chapter I'm referring to:
"I would have made Sansa a good marriage. A Lannister marriage. Not Joff, of course, but Lancel might have suited, or one of his younger brothers. Petyr Baelish had offered to wed the girl himself, she recalled, but of course that was impossible; he was much too lowborn. If Joff had only done as he was told, Winterfell would never have gone to war, and Father would have dealt with Robert's brothers."

My partner pointed this out for me just now, and although it isn't explicit, Gurm likes to hide stuff like this everywhere.

No no no no no no.

Joffery was supposed to send Ned to the wall, but instead had him killed. That's what that quote meant. Stop reading into poo poo that isn't there.

Habibi
Dec 8, 2004

We have the capability to make San Jose's first Cup Champion.

The Sharks could be that Champion.
Finished up Dance last night, and while I enjoyed it, I can't help but echo some of the comments regarding the necessity for both Feast AND Dance. I enjoyed both books, don't get me wrong. I probably liked Feast more than most in the SA GRRM fan community. But both books seemed to have a lot of material that I felt was either unnecessary or just over-expanded on, and it just seems like there must have been a way to combine them into one (which would have been better than the sum of its parts).

Specific thoughts:

Enjoyed:
- The Jons. With Snow, I felt like that was the story that, despite having little physical movement, progressed more than anything else. That is, that Jon was actually undertaking and accomplishing a whole lot of pretty big things with getting the wildlings settled on the other side of the wall, recruiting a bunch of them into the Watch, GIANTS, and so on. With Connington, his story moved like Tyrion/Dany's should have, and I liked his persona.

- Barristan the Badass. Yeah boy.

- Dany riding her dragon.

- Ser Robert Strong and Cersei - interested to see how that's going to go.

- Arya's limited appearance, though I'm still not sure why her parts didn't make it into Feast.

Not so enjoyed:

- Tyrion and Dany. Ugh. Tyrion was off and on alright, I guess, but fell well short of previous books. Dany was just boring. I didn't skip or skim her chapters like some here apparently did, but I definitely groaned when I would get to one of hers, especially if it followed one of the Jons, Arya, etc...

- Victarion. Eh. He had some good POVs, and things definitely took a turn for the better once Moqorro entered the picture, but his whole enterprise just annoys me because it was such an obvious ploy of his brother's to get him out of his hair / make him look like a toady, and yet Victarion just doesn't get it. I guess it's just a bit frustrating that he's sort of a dumbass.

- The image of that lamprey/rice dish above.

Other thoughts:

- Continue to enjoy Jaime and his new outlook on life, but that last scene was a whole load of :wtf: I like the one poster's hypothesis that Brienne is bringing him back to fight the "Hound" just to prove how serious he really is about keeping his oath, but it was still an odd scene.

Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Jul 18, 2011

Habibi
Dec 8, 2004

We have the capability to make San Jose's first Cup Champion.

The Sharks could be that Champion.

Kainser posted:

You know what would have been great? A single Petyr chapter after the red wedding where we get to see him reacting to Catelyn being murdered :smith:

e; Typing that made me realize that Littlefinger probably hates the Frey's. That should be fun, what with him being the liege lord of the riverlands.

Dude, everyone hates the Freys. The Freys are like the OPEC of Westeros. Everyone gets along with them when necessary, but I don't think a single house would bat an eyelash if the opportunity to wipe them out presented itself. This includes the Starks, the Tullys, the Lannisters, the Boltons, the Baelishes, the Arryns, etc... And since the Red Wedding they're hated even more.

whowhatwhere
Mar 15, 2010

SHINee's back
Walder Frey is no fool. That's why he's diversifying his investment portfolio so assiduously. And they thought it was because he was just a randy old goat :smug:

Smiling Jack
Dec 2, 2001

I sucked a dick for bus fare and then I walked home.

Vicatrion knows what his brother is doing, he just decided to get the dragons for himself, dragons before bros.

Kainser
Apr 27, 2010

O'er the sea from the north
there sails a ship
With the people of Hel
at the helm stands Loki
After the wolf
do wild men follow

Habibi posted:

Dude, everyone hates the Freys. The Freys are like the OPEC of Westeros. Everyone gets along with them when necessary, but I don't think a single house would bat an eyelash if the opportunity to wipe them out presented itself. This includes the Starks, the Tullys, the Lannisters, the Boltons, the Baelishes, the Arryns, etc... And since the Red Wedding they're hated even more.
Sure, but Littlefinger has a personal reason to hate them, not only the 'oh, they were dicks to some guys that one time and broke some traditions'-reason that most other people have.

vvv: I think you are greatly overestimating the Umbers and the Greatjon.

Kainser fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jul 18, 2011

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

hypocrite lecteur
Aug 21, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post
The clock is ticking on the Freys. No way they make it out alive. Big fat soft Manderly hates them so much he turned them into food. And they have the Greatjon imprisoned. They either: let him out (and he kills them) or kill him (and the Umbers don't leave a stone standing on top of another stone where the Twins used to be). Littlefinger has cause to hate them, their allies the Lannisters are on their way out and I'm not sure where the Freys stand w/r/t the Tyrells. They're propped up by the Boltons right now, who are also surrounded by as many enemies as they are friends with the winter on its way.

They're toast

edit: There's a fair amount of talk throughout the books about the Umbers being a fairly strong force in the north. The Freys made an explicit point of making sure that the Greatjon was captured during the Red Wedding to ensure their loyalty, from which it seems a fair inference that the Freys are cautious or afraid of the Umbers. Also, if Jon got his way / Stannis listens to him, they'll be given Winterfell if it's retaken

hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Jul 18, 2011

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply