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A Dance With Dragons posted:Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was making GBS threads brown water. The more she drank, the more she shat, but the more she shat, the thirstier she grew, and her thirst sent her crawling to the stream to suck up more water. This is how I felt about Dany chapters.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:25
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Most other people hat the Freys because the Freys betrayed, killed or imprisoned their family members.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:31
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Kainser posted:Sure, but Littlefinger has a personal reason to hate them, not only the 'oh, they were dicks to some guys that one time and broke some traditions'-reason that most other people have. I mean, this sort of applies to a lot of Houses. Many of the "true" Northern bannerman of the Starks hate them and for those it is as personal as, for instance, the death of 'Aegon' and Elia was to Dorne, as we see from Manderley's reaction. And this would go for the Mormonts and I'm sure anyone else who lost kin at the Red Wedding. The Tullys also used to merely tolerate them for the reasons you mention, but I have a feeling it's a bit more personal now. Long story short, the Freys have reached a point where, as a House, they have fewer redeeming qualities than the Lannisters (who at least have Tyrion, Jaime and Genna) and Targaryens, and are surpassed primarily by the Boltons.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:37
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Smiling Jack posted:Vicatrion knows what his brother is doing, he just decided to get the dragons for himself, dragons before bros. Oh, and I forgot to list on my list of things I enjoyed the great Wyman Manderley. For a fat guy, he sure knows how to roll.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:38
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kazil posted:No no no no no no. Yes he was, but it is not unreasonable to assume Littlefinger whispered in Joff's ear that real kings don't give mercy to traitors. Which would mean his love interest was suddenly a widow, and the realm would plunge into chaos. Smiling Jack posted:Most other people hat the Freys because the Freys betrayed, killed or imprisoned their family members. And pissed all over the sacred rights of guests. The "how" is just as important in this case as the "what".
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Jul 18, 2011 19:40
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OperaMouse posted:Yes he was, but it is not unreasonable to assume Littlefinger whispered in Joff's ear that real kings don't give mercy to traitors. Which would mean his love interest was suddenly a widow, and the realm would plunge into chaos. quote:edit: There's a fair amount of talk throughout the books about the Umbers being a fairly strong force in the north. The Freys made an explicit point of making sure that the Greatjon was captured during the Red Wedding to ensure their loyalty, from which it seems a fair inference that the Freys are cautious or afraid of the Umbers. Edit: \/\/\/ The also live in the North and know their lands well, so even if they were a minor house they could probably inflict some serious damage (ie: like the Reeds). Habibi fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 19:48
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Also, when Stannis talks about marching south, Jon tells him not to march through the Umber's lands without making friends with them first or he won't make it. I don't think they're a huge power, but they're not a minor house edit: someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Stannis knew, or had been alerted to, the karstarks being treacherous. Is that the case? I don't remember anything along those lines
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Jul 18, 2011 19:49
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Edit: ^^^ I posted the same question in the spoiler-free thread a bit earlier today. I want to say I remember a scene where Jon was dispatching messages to Deepwood Motte, which is the way by which the Braavosi banker and Asha's crew found Stannis, making it reasonable to believe that they carried that intel with them. But despite finishing this thing last night I just can't recall for sure. Incidentally, are there any more theories out there on what's going on with Loras? I recall after AFFC came out there was a whole lot being hypothesized as far as his injuries being faked / seriously exaggerated / somehow planned out beforehand by the Tyrells to get him out of the picture for the time being. I'm curious just because that whole plot always struck me as just way too convenient, what with him being a pretty boy who is now a burned wreck. On the other hand, we have Quentyn Martell, who I knew was going to be in serious trouble when I saw the chapter was named freaking 'Dragontamer,' but whose method of expiration still caught me by surprise (even when he realized he was on fire I figured he'd make it out alive somehow).
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Jul 18, 2011 19:55
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I don't think there were any mentions of Loras in ADWD. I didn't really think that his injuries were faked -- him having a deathwish and recklessly storming the keep seems pretty plausible, I think he's still pretty wrecked over Renly's death. It's possible it was a lie to take him off the board for a bit, though.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:58
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Habibi posted:Edit: ^^^ I posted the same question in the spoiler-free thread a bit earlier today. I want to say I remember a scene where Jon was dispatching messages to Deepwood Motte, which is the way by which the Braavosi banker and Asha's crew found Stannis, making it reasonable to believe that they carried that intel with them. But despite finishing this thing last night I just can't recall for sure. I thought that was the entire significance of the Iron Bank guy finally catching up to Stannis in the woods.
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Jul 18, 2011 19:59
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hypocrite lecteur posted:I don't think there were any mentions of Loras in ADWD. I didn't really think that his injuries were faked -- him having a deathwish and recklessly storming the keep seems pretty plausible, I think he's still pretty wrecked over Renly's death. It's possible it was a lie to take him off the board for a bit, though. Yeah again this is just something that tickled my memory from when Feast first came out and the theories about him (which in all likelihood were motivated by him being the prettyboy that he is and the fantasy fanbase being what it is) that were being thrown around at the time.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:00
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withak posted:I thought that was the entire significance of the Iron Bank guy finally catching up to Stannis in the woods. Well, the other significant part of it was that the Iron Bank guy has a ton of money - but yes, that's why I was asking.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:01
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Habibi posted:Well, the other significant part of it was that the Iron Bank guy has a ton of money - but yes, that's why I was asking. And that he brought Theon and Jenye(?), so Ramsay would send a message to Jon.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:13
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Anders posted:And that he brought Theon and Jenye(?), so Ramsay would send a message to Jon. Yeah, which leads me to think that Ramsay's letter to Jon is horse poo poo, as he's asking for his bride and Reek back, which he'd have if he'd killed Stannis and co.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:17
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hypocrite lecteur posted:I don't think there were any mentions of Loras in ADWD. I didn't really think that his injuries were faked -- him having a deathwish and recklessly storming the keep seems pretty plausible, I think he's still pretty wrecked over Renly's death. It's possible it was a lie to take him off the board for a bit, though. IIRC, Kevan makes mention of his grevious wounds in the epilogue after Mace makes a comment about Loras scouring Dragonstone for gold, but Mace himself does not mention injuries.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:21
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Has anyone got a link to that really detailed map of Westeros?
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Jul 18, 2011 20:22
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Cervixalot posted:IIRC, Kevan makes mention of his grevious wounds in the epilogue after Mace makes a comment about Loras scouring Dragonstone for gold, but Mace himself does not mention injuries. Personally I'm banking on the Tyrells making a play for the throne, with Loras serving as a pocket Kingsguard. Kevan was mentioning them trying to stack the Small Council in a power play, and with him dead and a Tyrell Queen they'd have had an easy time of it. It'll be interesting seeing how horribly Cersei gets outmaneuvered in the next book. Everseen fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 20:25
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dyehead posted:Yeah, which leads me to think that Ramsay's letter to Jon is horse poo poo, as he's asking for his bride and Reek back, which he'd have if he'd killed Stannis and co. Though the bit about Mance makes me sad, because unlike the whole Stannis thing, that part just might be true.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:25
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hypocrite lecteur posted:edit: There's a fair amount of talk throughout the books about the Umbers being a fairly strong force in the north. The Freys made an explicit point of making sure that the Greatjon was captured during the Red Wedding to ensure their loyalty, from which it seems a fair inference that the Freys are cautious or afraid of the Umbers. Also, if Jon got his way / Stannis listens to him, they'll be given Winterfell if it's retaken Midnight- posted:Has anyone got a link to that really detailed map of Westeros?  4000x12000 pixels original e; There is also a really detailed 'realistic' one somewhere. e; I believe that Ramsay has Mance as his captive and that Loras' disfigurement is genuine. Kainser fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 20:27
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The most useful map I've seen has been this: http://kevinhatch.com/media/kh-asoiaf.pdf Warning - it has some book spoilers with regards to ownership of various castles and towns, but on the other hand that's the cool part. If you forgot where the hell say Lyddens or Dondarrions or Mallisters came from, you can search the PDF for the names.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:39
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With the whole "Dragons plant no trees, remember your words, FIRE AND BLOOD" situation in the last Dany chapter, and her re-embracing her dragons... seems like maybe she's going to just say 'gently caress it' to the entire concept of ruling peacefully and return to TEAR poo poo UP. Imagine if GRRM made Meereen suck so hard purely for the payoff of Dany returning with a dragon and burning the whole place to the ground, much like every person who actually read the book wanted to do. "Oh remember my character development as a younger, hotter, luckier Ned? gently caress YOU, I GOT DRAGONS, BURN MOTHERFUCKERS!" Ok maybe it's not even slightly realistic but wouldn't it be fun? EDIT: God the TVIV thread is so frustrating. "Cersei sent that assassin right?" "No. I mean, um, not necessarily!" "Well who else could it be? Oooh it was Littlefinger right?" "No, um, I mean, maybe but, er, probably not..." Just stop arguing with them already guys, there is no way to argue this point effectively without straight-up saying "YOU FIND OUT WHO IT IS IN A LATER BOOK AND IT'S NOT WHO YOU THINK" showbiz_liz fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 20:46
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The last 250 pages were so much easier to read. Things were actually happening! The events leading up to Jon's death didn't make much sense though. Suddenly there is a plot-issue where GRRM wants Jon dead, and so Jon takes a sudden lapse into retardness. In ways he has previously been shown to be quite capable.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:49
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showbiz_liz posted:
In fairness, there's like 0 evidence in the show to point to who it could be, Littlefinger or Cersei or pretty much whoever you'd want to name are just as good a guesses as Joffrey hhhmmm posted:The events leading up to Jon's death didn't make much sense though. Suddenly there is a plot-issue where GRRM wants Jon dead, and so Jon takes a sudden lapse into retardness. In ways he has previously been shown to be quite capable. 2nd Stark in a row to get taken down by ignoring his wolf. "Hm, my big magical wolf has suddenly stopped trusting the people around me. God, you stupid animal, go sit in a locked room while I go off with my friends! Stop growling and barking what's wrong with you oh god the stabbing aaa"
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Jul 18, 2011 20:57
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Ramsey claimed to have killed Stannis, who was the Watch's only ally in the Seven Kingdoms and then directly threatened Jon and by extension the Watch. Of course there was a lot of personal issues involved as well but while the Watch is not supposed to get involved with political matters, if it is targeted by someone that would undermine the mission of defending against the Others, it should be reasonable to respond in kind. Good lord that was a terrible sentence.
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Jul 18, 2011 20:58
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hypocrite lecteur posted:In fairness, there's like 0 evidence in the show to point to who it could be, Littlefinger or Cersei or pretty much whoever you'd want to name are just as good a guesses as Joffrey Oh I know, that's the thing! All a TV-watcher can do is make a wild guess, but people who've read the books keep arguing with them because they're (obviously) guessing incorrectly.
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Jul 18, 2011 21:01
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showbiz_liz posted:Oh I know, that's the thing! All a TV-watcher can do is make a wild guess, but people who've read the books keep arguing with them because they're (obviously) guessing incorrectly. My little sister adores the TV show, and while it is fun to talk about the series with her, it's hilarious to hear her "theories" about it.
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Jul 18, 2011 21:07
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hypocrite lecteur posted:2nd Stark in a row to get taken down by ignoring his wolf. "Hm, my big magical wolf has suddenly stopped trusting the people around me. God, you stupid animal, go sit in a locked room while I go off with my friends! Stop growling and barking what's wrong with you oh god the stabbing aaa" Jon is getting himself into trouble way before this happens (but only in ways that will get him killed, in all other cases he is a goddamn genius). Example: Melissandre: I see a woman escaping on a white horse towards the wall. I'm guessing Arya. *The Karstark girl shows up, fitting the prophecy correcty*. Jon: gently caress YOU Melissandre clearly your prophecies are way off. I will promptly ignore you, especially your call for increased personal security. Eej posted:Ramsey claimed to have killed Stannis, who was the Watch's only ally in the Seven Kingdoms and then directly threatened Jon and by extension the Watch. Of course there was a lot of personal issues involved as well but while the Watch is not supposed to get involved with political matters, if it is targeted by someone that would undermine the mission of defending against the Others, it should be reasonable to respond in kind. I don't mind him meddling. But Jon has a shitload of resources at his disposal, he should be able to come up with better ideas than jumping off the nearest cliff.
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Jul 18, 2011 21:18
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hhhmmm posted:*The Karstark girl shows up, fitting the prophecy correcty*. Yeah, this whole bit didn't make much sense. Her visions clearly have some element of truth yet suffer in the interpretation, but that's no reason to completely discount a vision of daggers and personal danger.
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Jul 18, 2011 21:38
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So I know a lot of people were pissed about how Bran's story petered out, but I did like how we saw traces of him throughout the rest of the book, like when Theon got close to Weirwood trees and heard whispers. Since Greenseers can see into the past, can we assume that most of the 'whispering' to Starks and others from Weirwood trees in past books is Bran watching? Also, can he see the future through the trees?
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Jul 18, 2011 21:52
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Cervixalot posted:So I know a lot of people were pissed about how Bran's story petered out, but I did like how we saw traces of him throughout the rest of the book, like when Theon got close to Weirwood trees and heard whispers. I wasn't pissed about his storyline, but I was disappointed. Yeah, it had some neat revelations and in that sense was pretty cool, but there wasn't much in the way of plot movement. Not sure about the whole future thing (the description of how weirwoods relate to time could, I guess, go either way, but I'm leaning towards 'past and present only'), but I like that it seems to be going in the direction of 'someone with the ability can use the trees to communicate/see afar/etc...' which would explain a lot as far as the prevalence / worship / importance of those trees. Oh, also - I remember when the book was leaked there was apparently talk of Howland Reed inhabiting Arthur Dayne's body, but I can't recall actually reading anything that suggested that in the book. Was that just a fake spoiler or did I miss something?
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Jul 18, 2011 22:02
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Who will be the head of House Lannister now that Kevan is dead?
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Jul 18, 2011 22:10
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BeigeJacket posted:Who will be the head of House Lannister now that Kevan is dead? Lancel? Or is he married to the Seven now.
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Jul 18, 2011 22:11
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Welp, I finished it. And it was better than Feast for the sake of having more characters I like, but beside that it wasn't great. Not very much happened. Ultimately it was just set-up for the next book. To be honest, this book is about what I expected. Feast was a set-up book and this was a continuation of that. It could have been way better, but I'm just glad Martin got it out even 'as-is' as it is. Now maybe (haha) he can go back to writing plot. As far as observations go: I get why Meereen was such a clusterfuck for Martin. There was a lot going on inside the city, and no clear way of getting out of the situation without being faithful to Dany's personality. ("I don't want to hurt anyone because I'm DIFFICULT) That said, I don't think Martin handled it very well. Nothing was really solved and as a result the plot never moved forward. I mean if you think about it, a dragon had to literally descend from the heavens and pick Dany up to get her out of that stupid city. Not exactly genius writing. Stuff only started happening when Barristan took over and there wasn't NEARLY enough of that. And I'm starting to HATE that nobody ever seemed to get to their intended destination. When Tyrion started travelling down that loving river I got this sinking feeling that ninety percent of the book was gonna be about this journey to Meereen. And that he probably wouldn't hook up with Dany at the end anyway. AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. gently caress THAT. A big thing that worries me is how he's going to fit in all this junk he's set up for the next book. I'd love to find out what happens with Bran and Arya, but he's set them up pretty good for a time leap. On the other hand, other plots need immediate solving. I want to see Zombie Gregor's trial by combat. We need to know what happens with Jon. (Since he's coming back. He is.) Baby Aegon's pretty immediate and so is Jamie/Brienne (I enjoyed those chapters in Feast. Sue me). What really sucks is that this is the problem he ran into with Feast. He originally planned to leap ahead a few years in the timeline, but decided that there were too many flashbacks. So we got these versions of Feast and Dance. I just wonder, as I'm sure a lot of people are, how he's going to fit all these events in the last two books with the way he writes. The food descriptions alone take up half the book. In conclusion, I'm super excited we have something to talk about besides lemon cakes and rape. Surely this will last us through the long and unending winter. Edit: Good god that's a lot of text
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Jul 18, 2011 22:12
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e: whoops
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Jul 18, 2011 22:14
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BeigeJacket posted:Who will be the head of House Lannister now that Kevan is dead? Oh god...didn't Tywin have a sister that married one of the Freys?
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Jul 18, 2011 22:15
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Ghost Hat posted:I get why Meereen was such a clusterfuck for Martin. There was a lot going on inside the city, and no clear way of getting out of the situation without being faithful to Dany's personality. ("I don't want to hurt anyone because I'm DIFFICULT) That said, I don't think Martin handled it very well. Nothing was really solved and as a result the plot never moved forward. I mean if you think about it, a dragon had to literally descend from the heavens and pick Dany up to get her out of that stupid city. Not exactly genius writing.
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Jul 18, 2011 22:19
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Cervixalot posted:Lancel? Or is he married to the Seven now. Pretty sure his joining the religious order counts him out for the top spot, like Jamie being in the Kingsguard. All of Tywins brothers are now dead, so maybe Tommen or one of Kevans other sons, if the rules say it passes to the son of the current head, otherwise some random cousin I guess? Honestly these medieval succession traditions are so loving obtuse. Now, someone tell me who the hell Marwyn is, and why I keel seeing his name pop up on nerd forums discussing ADWD.
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Jul 18, 2011 22:20
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Edit: ^^^ The Archmaester to whom Sam is introduced in Feast, who immediately then takes off to meet Dany. Also the one who had the dragonglass candle burning in his room, IIRC, as well as the one who taught both Mirri Maz Duur and Qyburn. Nice resume.Comrade Flynn posted:Oh god...didn't Tywin have a sister that married one of the Freys? Yeah, Genna - but she was pretty awesome. Sort of like a non-dwarf female Tyrion. Habibi fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 22:22
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^^^^^^^ Oh right, that dude. He's had like, 10 pages of screen time at most, and he's already in the mix? Habibi posted:And more than that, even given the recent developments, there still doesn't necessarily seem to be a clear way out of Meereen. Ok, she sort of has psuedo-control over Drogon, and she may have another khalassar. But is she just going abandon Meereen to the exact same situation that she didn't want to abandon them to earlier? It just doesn't seem like her justification for leaving the city, intact or burning or whatever, is any better/clearer now than before Dance. Danys last chapter was weird, I'm not sure what exactly the big fellow was trying to get at. It seems to be a lost-inthe-wilderness-leading-to-great-revelation trope that usually signifies a character reflecing on the past and making a decision for the future. OR it could be read as a woe-is-me-all-is-forsaken self pity jag. Either way it was pretty vaguely done and not satisfying. There were a few times in the book where people were getting murdered and Danys interior monologue would say something like "she was the blood of the dragon, she would lead her people" or some poo poo. And I'd be sitting there thinking 'alright now the gloves are off and shes going to give the dragons a whirl, and of course it never happens. BeigeJacket fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jul 18, 2011 |
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Jul 18, 2011 22:26
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Cervixalot posted:Since Greenseers can see into the past, can we assume that most of the 'whispering' to Starks and others from Weirwood trees in past books is Bran watching?
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Jul 18, 2011 22:30
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