|
I'd like to know the story about how Bloodraven ended up as a greenseer. I'd also like to know more about his magic generally. Do we have any information on how this might have happened, or anything about the sort of powers he had generally? All I have is rumour that the arrow he used to kill Daemon Blackfyre was ensorcelled, and that is from Eustace Osgrey, who was a senile old coot.
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 04:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:22 |
|
|
Neurosis posted:I'd like to know the story about how Bloodraven ended up as a greenseer. I'd also like to know more about his magic generally. Do we have any information on how this might have happened, or anything about the sort of powers he had generally? All I have is rumour that the arrow he used to kill Daemon Blackfyre was ensorcelled, and that is from Eustace Osgrey, who was a senile old coot. Based on The Mystery Knight, he was a warg and a facechanger.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:01
|
|
|
One thing I was thinking about recently was since the last two books overlap, could there be a way to read them both together? I realize the 5th book goes past the 4th, but I think you could shake the chronology out a bit and have something.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:05
|
|
|
literallyincredible posted:who's motivations didn't make sense? Dany was stupid with Daario, but that was supposed to be stupid, in much the same way Robb was a moron when it came to Jeyne. Certainly, her fixation on slavery was not out of character for her as previously portrayed. Dany/Daario and Robb/Jeyne are quite different. Dany just sees someone who she wants to have sex with, while Robb is acting out of his concept of honor. "I command you to gently caress me" and "She comforted me..." (with all the sheepishness that goes with the latter) are two completely different sentiments. Dany is stupid, Robb is honorable and stupid.  While I didn't like the last Jon chapter, his motivations are internally consistent. In his mind, he has been personally threatened by the letter. HE will march south with the wildlings to deal with Ramsay and his "sister", while the watch will undertake an expedition to Hard Home. In his mind, no one will be compelled to break their vows. Regarding those men of the Watch who go south with him, he will probably justify their march by saying the Watch was under threat. Tyrion is great, except for a couple of things. Greyscale was introduced way too quickly. Happy boat riding, then BAM "stone men" with some horrible disease and fog and oh my god they are on the boat and holy poo poo... They could have been explained a bit more beforehand. Although now that I think about it, the suddenness with which they make their appearance surprises the reader just as much as the party, so maybe they work well in that context, sort of like the Red Wedding. Everything after Penny shows up before they enlist in the mercenary group should be deleted. I loved the PTSD vibe in both Tyrion's first two or three chapters and throughout Theon's.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:10
|
|
|
Tyrion may be broken, but he's also positioned himself working for a guy that the recently loosed dragons happen to like. Moreover, he understands that they like Brown Ben. He came all this way to ride a dragon, he knows how, and most importantly he has the tools to do it now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:15
|
|
|
literallyincredible posted:who's motivations didn't make sense? Dany was stupid with Daario, but that was supposed to be stupid, in much the same way Robb was a moron when it came to Jeyne. Certainly, her fixation on slavery was not out of character for her as previously portrayed. The way she blithely accepts Plumm betrayal when she went apeshit on others who had done the same. Marrying a man who is clearly leading her enemies. Locking two of her dragons in the cellar and completely ignoring the loss of Drogon. Welp,guess he flew off! The most irksome thing to me was when she was married, they went through on a point by point basis on how she had improved life in Mereen and she just kinda shrugged it off. Daario is the least of her problems. I disagree about Jon, he's remained loyal to the spirit of his oath to the Night's Watch despite breaking it in almost every sense. Most of his character points have been how to remain faithful to that oath. Why didn't he break it when Rob rode to war? When Theon took Winterfell? Nah, better to cause as many of your brothers as you can to break their oaths? gently caress that. Theon's arc would be pretty good if he wasn't, well, Theon. I have a deep hatred of that character and him assisting in a rape in this book didn't make me like him more. Legendary Ptarmigan posted:Tyrion is great, except for a couple of things. Greyscale was introduced way too quickly. Happy boat riding, then BAM "stone men" with some horrible disease and fog and oh my god they are on the boat and holy poo poo... They could have been explained a bit more beforehand. Although now that I think about it, the suddenness with which they make their appearance surprises the reader just as much as the party, so maybe they work well in that context, sort of like the Red Wedding. Greyscale has been mentioned before and it's now pretty clearly leprosy. The Sorrows is some sort of leper colony and the stone men's isle is a reference the old practice of banishing lepers to prevent the spread of the disease. That chapter is really well written though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:17
|
|
|
Legendary Ptarmigan posted:Everything after Penny shows up before they enlist in the mercenary group should be deleted.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:19
|
|
|
The dragons being too small to bear weight is a valid point, but you'd think someone among her advisers would at some point make the case that the proper course of action when one has dragons is to devote as much time as possible to their care and training. I mean they seemed pretty intelligent and trainable up until 'welp Drogon eats children', and I had the impression Drogon's kid snacking was a direct consequence of Dany basically ignoring them to focus on people with blue beards and stilts and poo poo. The Unsullied are cool and all, but you'd think if you had access to living super-weapons that can destroy entire armies on their own and kill everyone in the biggest castle in the world by melting it, you'd concentrate your efforts on preparing them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:24
|
|
|
Haha, that makes it sound kind of like child snacking is just a part of Drogon's angry teenage phase. "Oh yeah? Take that mom!"
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:28
|
|
|
Legendary Ptarmigan posted:Everything after Penny shows up before they enlist in the mercenary group should be deleted. (I actually liked Tyrion's story much better than the general consensus.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:45
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:I disagree about Jon, he's remained loyal to the spirit of his oath to the Night's Watch despite breaking it in almost every sense. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:49
|
|
|
Lester B. Pearson posted:One thing I was thinking about recently was since the last two books overlap, could there be a way to read them both together? I realize the 5th book goes past the 4th, but I think you could shake the chronology out a bit and have something. I found this list, which seems to do a pretty good job, although I haven't really tried checking them myself.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:55
|
|
|
thehoodie posted:I found this list, which seems to do a pretty good job, although I haven't really tried checking them myself. That list is way too much loving work holy poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 05:59
|
|
|
lapse posted:I wanna see a heartwarming tale where Jon Snow travels north and discovers that the Others weren't actually that bad all along, they were just misunderstood, gentle giants. Hahaha imagine if Dany just gradually became insane and started burning the poo poo out of Westeros and then it turned out that the Others were the only way to stop her and her dragons. Take THAT, genre conventions! Habibi posted:That list is way too much loving work holy poo poo. It's only a matter of time until someone does a mashup of the e-books and puts it up as a torrent. showbiz_liz fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jul 20, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 06:05
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:I'd like to know the story about how Bloodraven ended up as a greenseer. I'd also like to know more about his magic generally. Do we have any information on how this might have happened, or anything about the sort of powers he had generally? All I have is rumour that the arrow he used to kill Daemon Blackfyre was ensorcelled, and that is from Eustace Osgrey, who was a senile old coot.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 06:17
|
|
|
Habibi posted:I'm curious as to why you think this. To me, it seemed as if Jon followed what he interpreted the oath as (which ultimately is how everyone does it) to the letter. He took no wife, fathered no children, held no land. He wore no crown (turned an almost-crown down) and won no glory (and knew he wasn't going to with the actions he took to bolster the Watch/Wall). He lived at his post, and is sure as hell about to die at it. It's not about the exact words, but what everyone else views as him breaking his oath. I just meant how it looks to everyone else.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 06:17
|
|
|
Toplowtech posted:Bloodraven is a greenseer probably because Bloodraven's real name is Brynden Rivers, son of Aegon IV and Mylessa Blackwood. House Blackwood of Raventree Hall is one of the oldest house in the riversland, dating from the first men, and is also one of the last houses south of the Neck to still follow the Old Gods. Why didn't they convert? Their arms are a flock of ravens on scarlet surrounding a dead weirwood upon a black escutcheon, it's like a giant "we are wargs" sign. It would also explain why Lord Blackwood don't want his 8 years old daughter to be taken as a hostage at King's Landing in Jayme's Chapter. That does put it in context a little more. I forgot about the Mystery Knight, as someone mentioned above, which I haven't read and actually forgot existed. A little more 7K before I return to this thread's usual bellicose attitude.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 06:20
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:It's not about the exact words, but what everyone else views as him breaking his oath. I just meant how it looks to everyone else. Fair enough, though I think that those other people (who are not necessarily the majority) all also have slightly different interpretations of the oath. To me, Jon was doing what he believed to be right based on the oath he took. I'm sure Marsh, et al. thought the same when they stabbed him.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 06:25
|
|
|
Jon is basically like Sturm from Dragonlance. He understands the true purpose of the order better than those around him. It's made clear in the part where he recites the oath, notes that it says nothing about the Wildlings, and points out that they are men and thus part of the kingdom that should be protected. Alternately, he's just equivocating at that point to justify his actions.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 06:48
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:Greyscale has been mentioned before and it's now pretty clearly leprosy. With the serial numbers filed off and a new paint job, yes, pretty much. (It's introduced no later than page 2 of ACOK, Stannis' daughter had it in infancy and has some disfigurement as a consequence. One difference from real-world leprosy would be that whole "if you get it as a kid it's possible to survive and become immune" thing.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:00
|
|
|
Seriously you're going to reintroduce Brienne and then never touch her again so we have no explanation for how she's alive? gently caress I hate GRRM.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:12
|
|
|
Giodo! posted:Best part of this book? The multiple bizarrely conspicuous references to "useless as nipples on a breastplate" culminating with Jorah emerging from the sellsword armory with...a breastplate with pierced nipples. I loved this and giggled out loud. Unoriginal Name posted:Jon takes on some responsibility and is interesting, but then betrays literally every character establishing moment he's ever had. "i know we are sworn brothers but i got this letter!!" Jon is the only person - as far as he knows - who can save his last sibling from a guy that just informed him that he flayed six women to make a cloak for Mance. Did you not read this part? Jon's last chapter after he tells Tormund about the letter posted:Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … Besides, it's not even than significant of a violation of his vows. Night's Watch words posted:Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:19
|
|
|
PeterWeller posted:Jon is basically like Sturm from Dragonlance. He understands the true purpose of the order better than those around him. It's made clear in the part where he recites the oath, notes that it says nothing about the Wildlings, and points out that they are men and thus part of the kingdom that should be protected. With the wights it moves from equivocation to justification. I still find it funny how no one south of the Wall whose name isn't Stannis would believe that undead are waiting for their chance to gently caress up the 7K. I wonder if the Others are purely a Westeros threat.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:19
|
|
|
literallyincredible posted:Theon's arc in the book was loving incredible. Yes. I hated Theon for betraying the Starks. I couldn't believe what a little poo poo he was, and I was so happy when Roose Bolton presented Catelyn with Theon's flayed skin. And then I read his chapters and just felt sick and horrible and oddly sympathetic. These villain redemption arcs may not be everyone's cup of tea, but damnit GRRM, they work on me. Daric posted:Seriously you're going to reintroduce Brienne and then never touch her again so we have no explanation for how she's alive? It's subtle, but the way she's holding Oathkeeper suggested to me that she shouted "Sword" and is leading Jamie to Catelyn/his death. Caufman fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Jul 20, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:27
|
|
|
I find it hard to think of Theon as redeemed when he murdered a family just to avoid looking silly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:51
|
|
|
Caufman posted:It's subtle, but the way she's holding Oathkeeper suggested to me that she shouted "Sword" and is leading Jamie to Catelyn/his death. Yes but it's stupid and cheap if you read AFFC six years ago and then spent hours speculating and reading internet forums, etc. Was the same thing with Arya going "blind" and it's going to be same with Ramsay's letter, Jon's fate, Cersei's trial, Aegon leading the seigge of Storm's End, etc. Grrm's a great storyteller (even with a half written book) but whoever had the smug picture of him with the "Because gently caress you, that's why" caption had it right. Though if it turns out Manderlay forged the Ramsay letter just to get Jon to come down so they share some delicious pies, you know, that might make it worth it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:53
|
|
|
Caufman posted:It's subtle, but the way she's holding Oathkeeper suggested to me that she shouted "Sword" and is leading Jamie to Catelyn/his death. This is what I'm worried about too  I find myself wondering about the characters who disappeared very early in Feast (= also the people who we haven't from since Dance). For all we know, Sansa is now married to the Warden of the East and wandering around with all the knights of the Vale while Jaime+Brienne+Stoneheart could turn up practically anywhere at the start of the next book if Jaime got them moving somewhere. Although I'm not really understanding all the complaining about cliffhangers. This isn't something new or unique to the last two books.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:54
|
|
|
hampig posted:This is what I'm worried about too Please, do you really think that GRRM could pass up the opportunity to write Sansa's deflowering?
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:55
|
|
|
So I've been rereading CoK and they mention the Citadel a few times. What the hell is the Citadel? Is it someplace overseas, like in Bravos?
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 07:58
|
|
|
It's in Oldtown and is the maester HQ iirc.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:00
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:I find it hard to think of Theon as redeemed when he murdered a family just to avoid looking silly. Not redeemed as in his soul is washed clean, but redeemed as a character by a reader. I don't want him to be tortured to no end anymore, which at least for me is a significantly big step. It's the same way I felt about Jamie Lannister. After he pushed Bran out, I was livid and wanted Catelyn to beat his rear end silly when he was captured. After his sections in ASOS, I felt like I understood him better and sympathized more. I still don't feel that way about the Hound, though. He killed Micah and gently caress him very much for that.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:03
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:With the wights it moves from equivocation to justification. Yeah, I agree. But to the guys who've spent their lives fighting Wildlings, it just sounds like the equivocations of some upstart kid. If it had been Benjen or Halfhand or Mormont saying that, they might have grumbled, but they would have seen the wisdom. They'll pay for their lack of vision though. Tormund and Wun Wun are gonna gently caress up some stewards for jumping their boy. Stannis (who is so still alive and chilling with all his new Northmen allies) won't be happy either.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:04
|
|
|
So without reading the whole thread, I assume we know where Rickon is, right? "For half a heartbeat Davos considered asking Wyman Manderly to send him back to the Wolf’s Den [rather than find Rickon], to Ser Bartimus with his tales and Garth with his lethal ladies. In the Den even prisoners ate porridge in the morning. But there were other places in this world where men were known to break their fast on human flesh." "Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother [Shaggydog] as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. " "The galleys Oledo and Old Mother’s Son had been driven onto the rocks of Skagos, the isle of unicorns and cannibals where even the Blind Bastard had feared to land." Linguica fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Jul 20, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:22
|
|
|
Ray_ posted:I loved this and giggled out loud. I read it. I just think that after Theon did the exact same thing with his relatives, in the exact same place no less, it doesn't particularly fit with his character to decide to ride out all of a sudden. Especially when he's been struggling to draw a clear line on how far he will go to help Stannis. He works so hard to get men on the Wall and creates a truce between enemies that have fueded for who knows how long and he just leaves it? I could see him writing to other allies to try and get them to help. But just leave his post and take Watch men with him? Leaving a shitload of undisciplined wildlings with less than a skeleton crew watching them before he decides to take a bunch? It just smacks of justification for having the dramatic cliffhanger.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:25
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:I wonder if the Others are purely a Westeros threat. I was wondering this too, I think they are, nobody else seems to give a gently caress. Along the same lines, does winter hit as hard across the sea as well? They don't seem to be as worried about it over there but Braavos is pretty far north in any case. As the series goes on you start to see how big the world really is. Yeah, Dany's always been over there but for the most parts its just names of port cities and islands. ADWD especially brings a bigger world view into focus, and most of the poo poo in Westeros really doesn't matter in the big picture, especially since Westeros doesn't factor in the slave trade anyway. No matter who is on the Iron Throne, the Lyseni are still going to be manufacturing sex slaves. Thats's where whore come from, but where do they go? I went from just watching the show where Theon is a smug douche but still a chill guy, to reading about him as a hobbled old not-man, so I just felt bad for him. Did you guys see that they are changing Asha's name in the show to Yara? I get the confusion with Osha but why change the name of the one that actually does things? Did they even mention Osha's name in the book? Not to mention Yara sounds like Arya anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:41
|
|
|
Linguica posted:"The galleys Oledo and Old Mother’s Son had been driven onto the rocks of Skagos, the isle of unicorns and cannibals where even the Blind Bastard had feared to land." GRRM made a big deal about the unicorn helm given as part of the tax on the Wildlings, so I'm pretty sure Davos is going to see one on Skagos. Seeing a unicorn would be a really meaningful experience for the old dude. Also, I'm really glad we finally got to see Martin's elves, and I'm glad they weren't just elves. The dappled skin, cat's eyes, and three fingered hands made the Children of the Forest very alien and inhuman, a nice change from just being some lithe people with pointy ears.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 08:46
|
|
|
bigmcgaffney posted:I was wondering this too, I think they are, nobody else seems to give a gently caress. Along the same lines, does winter hit as hard across the sea as well? They don't seem to be as worried about it over there but Braavos is pretty far north in any case. Westeros is the only landmass that extends to the far north; the shivering sea lies between the other land-masses and the north.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 09:04
|
|
|
Ray_ posted:Did you miss the part where his last surviving sibling (as far as he knows) is on the run from the most psychotic person in Westeros, in a blizzard, with no help, and is reasonably nearby? Linguica posted:"Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother [Shaggydog] as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. " Can't wait for some unicorn action in TWOW. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Jul 20, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 09:13
|
|
|
Linguica posted:So without reading the whole thread, I assume we know where Rickon is, right? Yep! Unoriginal Name posted:I read it. I just think that after Theon did the exact same thing with his relatives, in the exact same place no less, it doesn't particularly fit with his character to decide to ride out all of a sudden. Are you talking about Bran and Rickon? Because I believe Jon was on the other side of the wall at the time. Besides, Bran and Rickon were on the run for less than 24 hours and he didn't know they were on the run. So no, not the same situation at all. Not even really close. There was no decision for Jon to make for Bran/Rickon. Unoriginal Name posted:Nah, better to cause as many of your brothers as you can to break their oaths? gently caress that. Unoriginal Name posted:But just leave his post and take Watch men with him? Leaving a shitload of undisciplined wildlings with less than a skeleton crew watching them before he decides to take a bunch? Jon posted:“The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows. Jon posted:Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone. Then Tormund was pounding him on the back, all gap-toothed grin from ear to ear. “Well spoken, crow. Now bring out the mead! Make them yours and get them drunk, that’s how it’s done. We’ll make a wildling o’ you yet, boy. Har!”
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 10:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 00:22 |
|
|
Ray_ posted:You mentioned it twice, so I think you may have missed that part too - he's not taking anyone from the Watch or causing them to break their oaths: I missed that when I read it. I thought when he went into the Shieldhall and read the letter he had asked everyone present if they would go with him.Taking wildlings only makes that quite a bit better. Thanks! Rickon is going to be some kind of terrifying feral child who feeds on men and is infused with the blood of unicorns and it's going to be awesome.
|
|
#
?
Jul 20, 2011 10:35
|
|