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YES bread posted:The big problem I had was that she doesn't even try. She locks them up and stops interacting with them completely except to show them off to Quentyn the delicious virgin dragonsnack. The dragons have an affinity for her and instead of using that she does nothing. She learns more about dragons in a few days by riding on Drogon and making GBS threads herself then she does in months(?) of sitting in Meereen with two of them right there. When Dany had the dragons chained, they burned dozens of her guards and killed four of them. Like just about everything else in the books, the dragons are a double-edged sword. I believe she could have been a more effective ruler, that she could have done more to understand and control her dragons, especially the tamer two, but I completely object to your characterization of Dany as a dumb retard who only wanted Daario cocking. quote:Yeah this, it showed the entire city that she was all talk and ended up being worse than just not taking them in the first place. When Jon became Lord Commander, he instantly began to distance himself from the rank and file because he knew he'd have to send them to his death. Ned taught him this, and Ned too was fair but not warm to Theon because Ned understood someday he might have to kill his ward. Dany's lessons were different. She is the daughter of a mad king who was known for his brutality, and she wants very much not to be associated with such things. It's pushed her the other direction, maybe too far in the other direction, to the point where she wants to be loved by just about everyone, even her hostages. It put her in a weak position, I agree with this as well, but my main point isn't to defend Dany as a perfect leader. I just vehemently disagree with you calling her a horny retard. The characters in this book have more depth than that, she has a tragic flaw more substantial than stupidity and horniness.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:36
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I think this book just continued the trend set up in the previous four books: behaviour that would, in your average fantasy novel, win the day and lead to a happily-ever-after just gets you hosed by people who are willing to be bastards.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:36
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Then Dany went and poisoned herself. That paragraph was the funniest in the book. "These berries look okay. They taste bitter, but whatevs." *becomes violently ill and shits on self* bigmcgaffney fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 20, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 22:36
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Darkstar is headed to Mereen to untie this stupid knot.
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Jul 20, 2011 22:49
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euphronius posted:I don't think she was portrayed that way so I think maybe our different readings of those chapters is fueling our disagreement. I remember her spending a lot of time considering her options, finding them to be bad and worse and picking the least bad option. She ran into a bit of a Ned problem where her principles and honor were not conducive to the locality. This is why she's a bad ruler. She allows her emotions to rule her and can do/order/allow downright evil actions. Like the torture of young girls: Dany 2nd posted:Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.” Dany: "Yeah, go ahead and torture the daughters of the owner of a place where a murder took place. Anyone seen Daario?"
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Jul 20, 2011 22:59
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Speaking of hostages, they make a nice counterpoint to what is one of my favourite passages in the book, the clansmen's reaction to Jon's wildling insurance:quote:“Aye, and why not?” Old Flint stomped his cane against the ice. “Wards, we always called them, when Winterfell demanded boys of us, but they were hostages, and none the worse for it.” I like it mostly because of the relationship between the North and House Stark (I'm reminded of Mæster Luwin talking about the Stark ancestors as "hard men for hard times"), but I'm genuinely curious about whether Jon would be able to back his words if it came to it. My money would be on "no".
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Jul 20, 2011 23:08
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Terry Glenn posted:Darkstar is headed to Mereen to untie this stupid knot. In the next book there should be 20 long Darkstar chapters. Whenever Darkstar is not in another POV, any other character should just keep saying "Wheres Darkstar?".
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Jul 20, 2011 23:11
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Caufman posted:Dany's lessons were different. She is the daughter of a mad king who was known for his brutality, and she wants very much not to be associated with such things. Actually, hasn't she basically cut off everyone who's tried to tell her about her father's true nature and refused to hear about it?
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Jul 20, 2011 23:15
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Thoguh posted:Actually, hasn't she basically cut off everyone who's tried to tell her about her father's true nature and refused to hear about it? Pretty much. Selmy likes to gloss over Aerys' obvious insanity when talking with her in the earlier books. I don't even think Jorah even has a full conversation with her about the subject before getting cut off.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:20
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Caufman posted:When Jon became Lord Commander, he instantly began to distance himself from the rank and file because he knew he'd have to send them to his death. Ned taught him this, and Ned too was fair but not warm to Theon because Ned understood someday he might have to kill his ward. Ned made a point of always inviting different subjects to his table to listen, learn, and promote loyalty.. and not create too much of a distance.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:21
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showbiz_liz posted:Hahaha imagine if Dany just gradually became insane and started burning the poo poo out of Westeros and then it turned out that the Others were the only way to stop her and her dragons. Take THAT, genre conventions! Somebody need to do a "phamton edit" style editing that eliminate all the Brienne ad penny chapters.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:27
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:In the next book there should be 20 long Darkstar chapters. Whenever Darkstar is not in another POV, any other character should just keep saying "Wheres Darkstar?". The Darkstar "arc" could be him going from not knowing what to have for dinner to knowing what to have for dinner.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:27
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He also told, and I can't remember who, that you can never let yourself be friends with the men you command.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:27
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Darkstar is the mastermind behind all the happenings in this series. Varys and Littlefinger are but pawns in Darkstar's grand scheme- and only Darkstar has the sheer brilliance to understand exactly what the scheme actually is. Edit: He will cut off Dany's ear, and all problems will be solved.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:38
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Phylodox posted:I think this book just continued the trend set up in the previous four books: behaviour that would, in your average fantasy novel, win the day and lead to a happily-ever-after just gets you hosed by people who are willing to be bastards. Ay, my favorite is the Red Vipor/ Mountain fight out of all of them.
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Jul 20, 2011 23:40
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Party Plane Jones posted:Robert doesn't take poo poo from anybody but Ned in the books really, everybody else he yells/beats at until they go away (or kill him). Star Guarded fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Jul 21, 2011 |
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Jul 20, 2011 23:58
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Star Guarded posted:I don't think it's inconsistent - Dany continually ignored all of Jorah's advice, too, which led to situations like Qarth. I think the subplot with Daario was supposed to show she's still a child, and children obviously make bad rulers. She's a Joffrey with good intentions that gets her own POV chapters. Also, gratuitous teen sex scenes. GRRM, you pervert! 
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Jul 21, 2011 00:09
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Calef posted:Anyone else think that the "point" of the Penny and slavery stuff is to teach Tyrion some humility? His pridefulness is one of his bigger flaws. He's unable to let any insult go unanswered, ever, even when he is going to be whipped if he speaks. Penny was right that he reacted poorly to Joffrey's mockery. hhhmmm posted:Ned made a point of always inviting different subjects to his table to listen, learn, and promote loyalty.. and not create too much of a distance. NihilCredo posted:I like it mostly because of the relationship between the North and House Stark (I'm reminded of Mæster Luwin talking about the Stark ancestors as "hard men for hard times"), but I'm genuinely curious about whether Jon would be able to back his words if it came to it. My money would be on "no". Habibi fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jul 21, 2011 |
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Jul 21, 2011 00:10
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I would also like to know why GRRM has such a loving hard on for the word "Serjeant" in this book. He uses it all the goddamn time, like he was trying to say "LOOK AT ME I AM SPECIAL BECAUSE I MADE UP A NEW SPELLING FOR THIS WORD, LET'S USE IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!". Stupid intentional unnecessary misspellings make me irrationally angry apparently.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:19
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It's not a misspelling, just an older and out of use way of spelling sergeant.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:26
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Wasn't it mainly used in reference to the mercenary companies? Its just giving flair to this new set of warriors we are given.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:27
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furushotakeru posted:I would also like to know why GRRM has such a loving hard on for the word "Serjeant" in this book. He uses it all the goddamn time, like he was trying to say "LOOK AT ME I AM SPECIAL BECAUSE I MADE UP A NEW SPELLING FOR THIS WORD, LET'S USE IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!". If there's a reason for this, it's that 99% of the military characters with speaking roles in previous books were Westerosi knights. Now suddenly we have sellsword companies who don't give a poo poo about "ser" but do have ranks.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:28
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furushotakeru posted:Also, gratuitous teen sex scenes. GRRM, you pervert! Gratuitous sex in a fantasy series doesn't bother me, it's that, other than Jon and Dany (post rape Drogo), they tend to be really, really, really creepy gratuitous sex scenes. At least Dany and Daario, while pointless and showing her being a stupid teenager, wasn't creepy like Jayne & Theon and so many others. furushotakeru posted:I would also like to know why GRRM has such a loving hard on for the word "Serjeant" in this book. He uses it all the goddamn time, like he was trying to say "LOOK AT ME I AM SPECIAL BECAUSE I MADE UP A NEW SPELLING FOR THIS WORD, LET'S USE IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN!". Serjeant didn't bother me. but I still do a double take every time I see "leal". I actually like the changes though. I feel like he does subtle changes in spelling every once in a while just to remind us that this is another world, and not everything is the same.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:28
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Mince Pieface posted:The reason why it makes sense for Dany to be dumb in this book is because she has had a ridiculously ideal notion of how she should rule ever since the sacking of the sheep village in book 1. She's not willing to compromise her ideals for power. Yeah, pretty much. She's no Aerys. She goes too far the other way and allows her unrealistic ideals to guide her behavior. So far she'd been lucky, but Meereen finally presents her with a nut she can't crack and an enemy she can't just set on fire. She expects that being fair to the Great Masters will make them love (or at least tolerate) her, and that setting slaves free will make them happy. In an attempt to keep this going, she makes a lot of ill-advised decisions. The hostages are a perfect example and that kind of thing has real historical precedent. Locking up her dragons is another total overreaction, but you can understand it if you understand her - as far as she's concerned she killed the child herself, and she would rather bury who she is and go too far than to face that kind of horror again. She doesn't even want to look at that side of her. Same deal with Daario - she'd rather be a captain's gently caress toy, at least for a few hours at a time, than the person who has to eat this poo poo sandwich or take the cruel steps necessary to resolve the situation. It's easy to conquer and kill when you're up against "bad guys," but if you flinch from actions that could potentially hurt the innocent, you can't be an effective ruler. Sometimes being a morally pure person and being a good ruler are incompatible. I think that was the lesson that Meereen was supposed to impart. Her seeming realization of this and embrace of Drogon at the end of the book doesn't reflect her status as an Aerys, although it might foreshadow an eventual transformation into him. I mean look, I wasn't thrilled with her chapters myself because it's frustrating to follow this series of mistakes, but Martin was not ignorant to the fact that she was making poor decisions, nor was the point behind those decisions to say: "Hey guys Dany's retarded now."
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Jul 21, 2011 00:46
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Thoguh posted:I feel like he does subtle changes in spelling every once in a while just to remind us that this is another world, and not everything is the same. See, I don't like this stuff. When I read some fantasy dude say something in English, I assume it's a "translation" of whatever they're "really" saying, so little spelling irregularities that don't even change the pronunciation of the root word just strike me as dumb and jar me out of the world. It's like "frak" and "frell" and other scifi words for "gently caress", except Martin doesn't need to make up fake words to pass the censors like the BSG creators did.
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Jul 21, 2011 00:59
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But its not even a made up word 
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Jul 21, 2011 01:05
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withak posted:If you are trying to track down people involved in the insurgency, it seems like a good idea to suspect the guy claiming that he can make it stop as soon as you give him what he wants. I think it's pretty obvious that she knows and is willing to play ball to make it stop.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:05
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Scoobi posted:Wasn't it mainly used in reference to the mercenary companies? Its just giving flair to this new set of warriors we are given. No I'm pretty sure it's used nearly everywhere, suddenly. Definitely the wall, and definitely the Boltons, at least. I don't remember even seeing the word a single time in any of the first 4 books, but maybe I just missed it. If it please m'lord, a king must needs bestow gifts upon his leal lords and serjeants.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:06
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About 50% through according to my Kindle. It's not even funny how head and shoulders above everything else the Reek/Theon chapters stand. Not that I think the rest of the book is by any means bad, though the Danerys chapters are becoming increasingly tedious. The Theon chapters however, they have that twisted magic that left me unable to put down the first three books. The scene with Roose calling Ramsay stupid was awesome, if only for someone finally telling Ramsay he's a dumb savage. I genuinely felt Theon's terror when Roose ordered him to take off his dirty rear end Reek clothes and take a bath. The Davos chapters come in 2nd place so far, and an honorable mention goes out to what I think was the fourth Bran chapter. Bran trying to call out to his father was pretty 
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Jul 21, 2011 01:10
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Scoobi posted:But its not even a made up word It's an archaic spelling in a book that otherwise uses thoroughly modern English. It stands out like a sore thumb and doesn't add a thing to the narrative. In that way, it's not so different than fake gently caress words.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:11
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PeterWeller posted:See, I don't like this stuff. When I read some fantasy dude say something in English, I assume it's a "translation" of whatever they're "really" saying, so little spelling irregularities that don't even change the pronunciation of the root word just strike me as dumb and jar me out of the world. It's like "frak" and "frell" and other scifi words for "gently caress", except Martin doesn't need to make up fake words to pass the censors like the BSG creators did. I understand your point of view there (especially the fake swear words part). But for me, the little stuff like small changes to words is just another reminder that this isn't Earth, and the normal rules don't apply. So I feel like it makes it less jarring when stuff like dragons or the Others show up, because we are constantly being reminded that this another reality that, while like our own, is not exactly the same. Lots of authors try this and fail, but GRRM does a good job in dropping these little reminders without overdoing it.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:11
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PeterWeller posted:See, I don't like this stuff. When I read some fantasy dude say something in English, I assume it's a "translation" of whatever they're "really" saying, so little spelling irregularities that don't even change the pronunciation of the root word just strike me as dumb and jar me out of the world. It's like "frak" and "frell" and other scifi words for "gently caress", except Martin doesn't need to make up fake words to pass the censors like the BSG creators did. Yeah but if you're going with that theory, then puns shouldn't really work, songs shouldn't always rhyme, etc.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:13
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lapse posted:Yeah but if you're going with that theory, then puns shouldn't really work, songs shouldn't always rhyme, etc. But as long as it's all in regular-rear end modern English, I can ignore that and maintain the illusion. When the author starts spelling things differently for no real reason, it jars me out of that illusion. quote:I understand your point of view there (especially the fake swear words part). But for me, the little stuff like small changes to words is just another reminder that this isn't Earth, and the normal rules don't apply. So I feel like it makes it less jarring when stuff like dragons or the Others show up, because we are constantly being reminded that this another reality that, while like our own, is not exactly the same. Lots of authors try this and fail, but GRRM does a good job in dropping these little reminders without overdoing it. Since it's a fantasy book, I expect poo poo like Dragons and the Others. I don't need to be prepped for fantasy poo poo when I made the conscious decision to read fantasy. If Martin does it for the reason you like it, I'm a little insulted that he thinks I need reminding that the Seven Kingdoms are fake and have different rules than earth. I would match rather him put some effort into explaining how those rules work.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:22
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Thoguh posted:Actually, hasn't she basically cut off everyone who's tried to tell her about her father's true nature and refused to hear about it? There are times Dany cuts someone off from talking about the past, I think this is less about her being in denial and more about GRRM trying to not reveal too much all at once. Dany for sure knows that her father is mad, though, and that madness runs in the Targaryen blood. Selmy tells her that flat out. quote:"King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land." Later, after taking Meereen, she thinks about this some more. quote:"You have brought freedom as well," Missandei pointed out. The sudden and widespread use of leal, serjeant, 'words are wind' and 'nipples on a breastplate' make me think that there's some kind of language morphic field or GRRM is a writer with flaws, and one flaw is finding a new word or phrase and overusing it. At least no one is saying, "Nothing holds an edge like Valyrian steel" anymore. PeterWeller posted:But as long as it's all in regular-rear end modern English, I can ignore that and maintain the illusion. When the author starts spelling things differently for no real reason, it jars me out of that illusion. This series must bother you a lot then since a lot of names are twists on a common name, Eddard instead of Edward, Benjen instead of Benjamin, Robb instead of loving Rob. Caufman fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Jul 21, 2011 |
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Jul 21, 2011 01:26
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So after finishing the book (and enjoying it), I decided to finish all of the novellas and read The Mystery Knight. One little tidbit that I found interesting in there was that Aegon V and all of his brothers were given dragon eggs as gifts when they were children. What do you think happened to Maester Aemon's egg? Did he bring it to The Wall? This also got me thinking that dragon eggs were a lot less rare 80 years ago than they are now apparently, which begs the question, where did they all go? There were supposedly a bunch of eggs at Dragonstone, but those all supposedly vanished (as reported by the Tyrells in the Epilogue). Could Stannis have brought a bunch of dragon eggs to The Wall with him when he fled Dragonstone? Could this one or more eggs be the dragon or dragons that Jon Snow/AA Reborn will have to wake from stone to complete his PTWP prophecy? Speculation is fun. Also, I'm hoping HBO keeps putting out recipes for Westerosi food as the seasons progress so we can eventually learn to bake our own Frey pot-pies.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:39
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Caufman posted:And how would you go about training a dragon when there hasn't been one around for 100 years? The novels stress this with Tyrion, who was dragon-obsessed, still not knowing much about them and wishing he had more access to dragon-related lore. Dany cannot use them, but that doesn't mean she's forgotten them. Dracarys. Also Dany didn't just luck into her situation. She made some very intelligent choices and was an excellent tactician until she stopped to rule Mereen. Whereupon she put on a tokar and sat on a pyramid and whined about the bad things that were happening. I believe that this is some attempt to show the instability of the Targayeans in her, but it shouldn't make her retarded. Wild maybe, but not boring.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:47
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I think Daenerys started doubting herself when Drogon ate that little girl. She blamed herself, and ended up crippled with guild and indecision.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:49
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Caufman posted:The sudden and widespread use of leal, serjeant, 'words are wind' and 'nipples on a breastplate' Also "jape." Don't forget jape. That was the worst offender for me.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:52
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Caufman posted:The sudden and widespread use of leal, serjeant, 'words are wind' and 'nipples on a breastplate' make me think that there's some kind of language morphic field or GRRM is a writer with flaws, and one flaw is finding a new word or phrase and overusing it. At least no one is saying, "Nothing holds an edge like Valyrian steel" anymore.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:53
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Also "jape." Don't forget jape. That was the worst offender for me. Jape is a real word.
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Jul 21, 2011 01:58
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