Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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AllanGordon: Jan 26, 2010; by Shine

quote:

We have nothing to hide...we reject anything that affects our sovereignty.

drat these foreigners trying to make sure our elections are fair!

But really I mean they have to know how that sounds.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 10:14

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# ? May 15, 2024 15:01

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Brown Moses posted:

It's actually really interesting to read the WSJ report on this new southern front, as there's been a lot of unconfirmed reports on Twitter for weeks and weeks about rebel activity in that area, but as the report states, it was very difficult to confirm anything. One thing to remember is this front has been advancing with virtually no NATO support, and they seem to be a very small but mobile force, and could greatly disrupt Gaddafi supply lines and cause him some real headaches.

You should suggest to your CIA overlords that the time is ripe for a dashing "Libyan Fox" who will gesture grandly from his rebel modified Toyota Hi-Lux, wearing a bomber jacket, while simultaneously frying eggs on the hood.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 10:44

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

That's actually not from the WSJ article, it's just a printscreen of my desktop.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 10:53

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

I hope there are mass demonstrations against the decision to not allow outside overview of the Egyptian elections. I was actually really worried about that, and I'm utterly surprised and disappointed that they have made that decision.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 11:34

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

How in the world of gently caress do the SMC in Egypt think that barring international observers in the election would be a GOOD thing?!?
Either they are
a) loving stupid
or
b) *want* the elections to be disputed for some reason.

Also, if the rebels are unable to take Brega, what effect would this have on NATO support?

# ? Jul 21, 2011 11:38

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

The NTC forces from Benghazi are probably the best equipped and trained troops they have, so if they can't take Brega it'll be clear they are useless. However, their main problem really does appear to be landmines, and it does seem like Brega is surrounded, so I really do this it's just a matter of time, days, not weeks.

I also think part of this attack on Brega is the NTC trying to show NATO they can make important progress to stop them from negoiating with Gaddafi, so it's pretty important for them to succeed.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 11:43

Lascivious Sloth: Apr 26, 2008; by sebmojo

I think this new southern front is the best of the Benghazi soldiers the special forces have been training. Small, highly organized independent groups without media coverage to give away positions and attack key supply routes? Sounds like some T.E. Lawrence poo poo right there.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 12:07

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Brown Moses posted:

The NTC forces from Benghazi are probably the best equipped and trained troops they have, so if they can't take Brega it'll be clear they are useless. However, their main problem really does appear to be landmines, and it does seem like Brega is surrounded, so I really do this it's just a matter of time, days, not weeks.

I also think part of this attack on Brega is the NTC trying to show NATO they can make important progress to stop them from negoiating with Gaddafi, so it's pretty important for them to succeed.

They would also need to take Brega without depleting their numbers too much in order not to cripple their forces, and they are taking a lot of casualties by the sound of things.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 12:34

truavatar: Mar 3, 2004; GIS Jedi

Jut posted:

They would also need to take Brega without depleting their numbers too much in order not to cripple their forces, and they are taking a lot of casualties by the sound of things.

I would think that tends to happen when you de-mine with wooden sticks.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 12:49

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

truavatar posted:

I would think that tends to happen when you de-mine with wooden sticks.

It sounds like many of these casultities have came from battles with CQ troops

from the last page posted:

Anti-Gaddafi forces suffered heavy casualties in fighting for the eastern oil hub of Brega, a town they must capture if they are to advance towards Tripoli.

Eighteen fighters were killed and up to 150 wounded in the latest clashes, a doctor at an opposition-controlled hospital said.

"Yesterday, it was a disaster," Dr Sarahat Atta-Alah told Reuters News Agency at Ajdabiya hospital in eastern Libya.

and

quote:

Thirteen opposition fighters have been killed near the eastern oil town of Brega where rebels have been pushing to seize the area for nearly a week.

Rebels told Al Jazeera, their position was leaked to Gaddafi's forces by spies within the rebel force. The opposition controls most of eastern Libya but has not controlled Brega since April.

The town has crucial oil and gas supplies and rebels fear that Gaddafi loyalists may sabotage the facilities there if they are forced to retreat.

Last page went from "the rebels say they have routed CQ forces and are just clearing up mines" to "CQ troops ambush and beat off rebel troops". I think the mine thing may be a factor, but one over emphasised by rebels to try and make it look like CQ troops are beaten and ineffective. Propaganda.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 13:42

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

One thing to note is that Brega is spilt into the main refinery area and port, and a residential area much further up the road, so I think there was some confusion about where the rebels were.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 13:45

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Couple of updates from the Guardian blog:

quote:

Egypt's appeals court rescinded a ruling to remove the names of ousted President Hosni Mubarak and his wife Suzanne from schools and streets, state news agency MENA reported on Thursday. From Reuters:

quote:
Officials seeking to win presidential favour named public buildings, military installations and rural clinics after Mubarak in the years before a popular uprising toppled him in February.

"The court of appeals ... cancelled an earlier ruling issued by the court of first degree that decided to remove the name of former President Hosni Mubarak and that of his wife Suzanne Thabet from all institutions," MENA said.

The agency said the court decided to refer the case to State Council for review.

Mubarak faces a trial on August 3 on charges of killing protesters, which could carry the death penalty. He is also accused of abuse of power, wasting public funds and unlawfully making private financial gains.

He was admitted to hospital in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh in April after reportedly suffering heart problems during his initial questioning.

quote:

There are unconfirmed reports circulating that brother-in-law and chief enforcer, Abdullah Senussi, has been killed by Libyan opposition fighters.

Guma El-Gamaty, the UK co-ordinator for the opposition national transitional council, tweeted:

quote:
Reports that Abdullah Senussi was shot by tripoli FF and killed or seriously injured. If these report prove true it is a big blow to Gadhafi!

# ? Jul 21, 2011 14:43

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Interesting claim from Zliten

quote:

Libyan rebels in Zlitan capture key government commander
Libyan rebels in Misrata say they have captured the chief of operations of government forces in Zlitan on the first day of their offensive against the town.

General Abdul Nabih Zayid was caught late on Wednesday after advancing fighters overran his command post at Souk Talat, a small village on the outskirts of Zlitan, opposition commanders said.

"We have him in custody. He is being well looked after," said Mohamed Frefr, in charge of detainees for the rebels. "After three days talking with him we will hand him to the military prison."

Rebels in the besieged coastal city said the general was being interviewed by intelligence officers and well looked after, with supplies of insulin procured because he has diabetes.

A member of the Misrata Military Council, Hassan Duwa, said the general was captured as rebel units advanced towards Zlitan late on Wednesday. "He was in his house, 11 guys surrounded the house."

His capture is regarded as a major feather in the cap for rebel forces. The general gained notoriety among rebels when he helped co-ordinate the deployment of tanks into the streets of Misrata in March, triggering two months of street fighting that saw much of the city wrecked and hundreds killed.

Misrata's war crimes investigators say the general, who was operations officer at the city garrison before the war, is a "person of interest" for his role in what they say were widespread and systematic attacks against civilians.

Khalid Alwafi, a lawyer for Misrata's Human Rights Activists Association, made up of volunteer Libyan lawyers, which is assembling evidence it hopes can later be used by the international criminal court, said: "For sure we need to interview him. There are lots of questions that need answers from him."

Rebel units say they are on the outskirts of Zlitan and deploying around the town. The offensive has been launched simultaneously with a push by forces on the eastern front to capture the key oil town of Brega.

Both offensives have been augmented by heavy Nato air strikes over the past few days, with alliance aircraft flying over Misrata on Wednesday night. Loud explosions could be heard from behind the frontline.

In a sign that government forces may be feeling the strain, Libya's state television channel on Thursday morning broadcast an appeal for volunteers to join the army. An announcer told viewers there were vacancies in all units, including special forces, and that soldiers would be well paid.

Several rebel commanders in Misrata have told the Guardian in recent days that pro-Gaddafi forces are running short of manpower.

The twin attacks are as much political as military, with the rebel National Transitional Council, based in Benghazi, keen to demonstrate that it can break a six-week deadlock and gain the initiative.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 15:04

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

What an odd idea for the elections.

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/16933/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-parliamentary-elections-to-be-held-in-three.aspx? posted:

A spokesman for the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces has announced that the upcoming parliamentary elections will take place in a three-stage process, so reports state TV. This covers both houses of Parliament: the upper Shoura Council and the lower 'People's Assembly.'

Every two stages will be separated by a 15-day spell, during which the replay stage will take place. Appeals would be heard by court within 90 days after the results are announced.

Half of the 504 seats in the lower house will be contested only by workers and farmers.

Egyptians will be able to vote with their national ID.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 19:29

Ballz: Dec 16, 2003; it's mario time

First I'd heard of this...

Source here

quote:

SILVER SPRING, Md. - A Baltimore writer missing in Libya has been sighted in a prison in Tripoli, U.S. Rep. C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger and the writer's mother said Thursday.

Matthew VanDyke went to Libya this winter to write about the uprising against Muammar Qaddafi. He was there about a week when he disappeared in March.

Ruppersberger's spokeswoman Jaime Lennon said there have been two independent sightings of the 32-year-old in a Tripoli prison and that the State Department was working to confirm them. The State Department did not immediately return a call for comment.

"This is good news. It's a lead and we're hopeful," Ruppersberger said in a statement. "We'll do everything we can to bring Matthew home safe and sound."

The writer's mother, Sharon VanDyke, said she learned about the sightings Monday and alerted State Department officials, but wanted to give them time to start checking on the information before telling a wider circle of family and friends early Thursday. She said she was told her son was in good health, but declined to say how she learned of the sightings.

Previously she had heard from a friend of her son that an unnamed man told him Matthew VanDyke was in a prison, but there was no specific person that officials could check with.

"It's exciting, a real adrenaline rush," VanDyke said. "That's the best news that we've had and it's credible enough for the State Department to move on."

VanDyke traveled throughout the Middle East, including Iraq and Afghanistan, from 2007 to 2009. He visited Libya for six weeks in 2008 and had kept in touch with friends there, Sharon VanDyke said. He planned to be at home for a year working on a book on his travels, but he found himself distracted by the events in the Middle East, she said.

"My next thing is find him and get him home," VanDyke said. "At least now we know where he is."

I'm curious as to what he did to land in jail. Gadhaffi normally has reporters simply expelled if they annoy the regime enough.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 21:47

Sneakums: Nov 27, 2007; MAXIMUM.SNEAK.

Abdallah Sanousi, the chief of intelligence in CQ's regime, was targeted with anti-tank munition today. The attack happened when he was in an operations room used to track rebel movements. It's still unclear whether or not Sanousi was killed in the attack, or who else was targeted.

Source

What do you guys think this means for the CQ's propaganda? Up until this point, he had been posturing as if Tripoli was completely under his control, but an attack of this scale (especially against intelligence officers) looks pretty bad on him. He can ignore someone flying balloons (or was it kites), but this kind of attack will be hard to sweep under the rug.

Sneakums fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 21, 2011

# ? Jul 21, 2011 21:49

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Ballz posted:

I'm curious as to what he did to land in jail. Gadhaffi normally has reporters simply expelled if they annoy the regime enough.

That's not quite true. He's had the reporters that are barricaded in Tripoli deported, but he's actually detained a number of journalists who have been captured elsewhere, requiring significant diplomatic legwork to free them.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 21:49

Ballz: Dec 16, 2003; it's mario time

Xandu posted:

That's not quite true. He's had the reporters that are barricaded in Tripoli deported, but he's actually detained a number of journalists who have been captured elsewhere, requiring significant diplomatic legwork to free them.

Thanks for the clarification. Did he hide that they had been arrested, though, as appears to be the case with this guy?

# ? Jul 21, 2011 22:02

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

The previous reporters that were arrested were affiliated with media outlets who immediately knew of their disappearance. In this case, it sounds like a freelancer who had no idea what he was doing and walked into the middle of a firefight.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 22:24

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

Sneakums posted:

Abdallah Sanousi, the chief of intelligence in CQ's regime, was targeted with anti-tank munition today. The attack happened when he was in an operations room used to track rebel movements. It's still unclear whether or not Sanousi was killed in the attack, or who else was targeted.

Source

What do you guys think this means for the CQ's propaganda? Up until this point, he had been posturing as if Tripoli was completely under his control, but an attack of this scale (especially against intelligence officers) looks pretty bad on him. He can ignore someone flying balloons (or was it kites), but this kind of attack will be hard to sweep under the rug.

There's rumours that other important figures were injured in the attack, so it'll be interesting to see if the regime tries to dispel those rumours.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 23:03

Patter Song: Mar 26, 2010; Hereby it is manifest that during the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called war; and such a war as is of every man against every man.; Fun Shoe

I know Ham explained it before, but Egypt reserving half the seats in Parliament for Workers/Farmers seems very prone to abuse. Half (a quarter each for the two?) seems a very, very high threshold.

# ? Jul 21, 2011 23:06

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

I am really worried about egypt, it would really suck if all that Gulf money started going into tantawi's head and he decides he'd like the military to stay in power more. Overall I'm pretty confident that any mishaps we see from the military these days will be washed away with elections as long as:

A) the military does not interject in writing the constitution (this is starting to shake)

B) The military fucks out of all political life after they hand over the reigns. people could tolerate Tantawi being stupid and bitchy with who he assigns to government in this coming time, but alot of egyptians would be loving pissed off if he decided he wants his changes and orders to become indefinite signs of things to come.

If these two things stay in place, then we need not worry for egypts future. I just pray Tantawi and his ilk dont decide that their perks are worth more than egypt is.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 00:45

pylb: Sep 22, 2010; ^{"The superfluous, a very necessary thing"}

Brown Moses posted:

There's been a drop of strikes, but I think that's probably more to do with a lack of targets then anything.

France only conducted 150 sorties this week, compared to the 250+ of the previous weeks, but it's probably related to the fact the de Gaulle aircraft carrier ported in La Sude and the BPC Tonnerre helicopter carrier was replaced by the Mistral. The Gazelles, Pumas and Tigers redeployed on the Mistral, and they also moved the de Gaulle's Caracals to it.

I know very little about military equipment, anybody know why they blurred the HOT missile launchers on this pic ?

# ? Jul 22, 2011 01:15

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

The Moor Next Door has been doing a pretty good rundown of Tunisian leftist parties recently. Worth a read if you're interested in that sort of thing.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 04:18

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

NATO Report

quote:

Sorties conducted 21 JULY: 124
Strike sorties conducted 21 JULY: 45
Key Hits 21 JULY:
In the vicinity of Brega: 1 Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Sirt: 1 Radar.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 1 Military Storage Facility, 2 Surface-to-Air-Missile Launcher, 5 Anti-Aircraft Guns.
In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Zlitan: 3 Military Storage Facilities, 1 Military Facility, 1 Surface-to-Air-Missile Launcher,
1 Multiple Rocket Launcher, 1 Tank, 1 Armed Vehicle, 3 Military Vehicle.

It seems that having assisted the fighters in Brega NATO have moved on to helping out in Zliten, with the same level of strikes in Zliten in the last 3 days, and that seems to be helping out a lot. Hopefully there will be some more news from Zliten soon.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 09:03

Warcabbit: Apr 26, 2008; Wedge Regret

And the rubble is bouncing in Waddan.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 11:21

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

One of the journalists in Misrata is tweeting that the strikes in Zliten happened last night, and a commander told him they destroyed number of vehicles that were heading to Zliten to resupply and support the Gaddafi troops there.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 11:47

Golbez: Oct 9, 2002; 1 2 3!
If you want to take a shot at me get in line, line
1 2 3!
Baby, I've had all my shots and I'm fine

Saw this pop by on twitter: "Breaking: MISRATA/ZLITEN Freedom fighters captured 10 G soldiers and seized 4 vehicles - also managed to link southern+western fronts"

What fronts are they talking about? I initially thought they meant the southern surge had somehow reached Misrata, bypassing Sirt, but that's impossible, though it sounds like it could be viable if the southern leg does well. Does it mean the Nafusa Mountains are linked to Misrata now? Or is it a much smaller set of fronts they mean?

Or maybe it was just twitter.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 19:27

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

I think they mean the force that's fighting south of Misrata and west of Misrata.
They claimed that before, but then if was reported the fronts were seperated again.

# ? Jul 22, 2011 19:29

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

NATO Update

quote:

Sorties conducted 22 JULY: 128
Strike sorties conducted 22JULY: 46
Key Hits 22 JULY:
In the vicinity of Al Khums: 1Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Brega: 1 Military Storage Facility, 4 Armed Vehicles.
In the vicinity of Tripoli: 1 Command and Control Node.
In the vicinity of Waddan: 1 Military Storage Facility.
In the vicinity of Zintan: 3 Anti-Aircraft Guns.
In the vicinity of Zlitan: 1 Military Storage Facility, 2 Tanks, 2 Anti-Aircraft Guns,1 Armed Vehicle.

The fighting in Zliten and Brega continues, not much else to report, I think everyone is focused on Norway.

# ? Jul 23, 2011 12:36

Seizure Meat: Jul 23, 2008; by Smythe

pylb posted:

France only conducted 150 sorties this week, compared to the 250+ of the previous weeks, but it's probably related to the fact the de Gaulle aircraft carrier ported in La Sude and the BPC Tonnerre helicopter carrier was replaced by the Mistral. The Gazelles, Pumas and Tigers redeployed on the Mistral, and they also moved the de Gaulle's Caracals to it.

I know very little about military equipment, anybody know why they blurred the HOT missile launchers on this pic ?

Does France have an air wing to their special forces? If so, that's why, I'd guess.

# ? Jul 23, 2011 12:38

Nenonen: Oct 22, 2009; Mulla on aina kolkyt donaa taskussa

VikingSkull posted:

Does France have an air wing to their special forces? If so, that's why, I'd guess.

That would be no reason to censor the launcher tubes. The tubes only bear technical markings on the missile's model, handling instructions etc. France uses HOT-3, and its range etc. are public knowledge, so I don't know why they would blur it. Maybe it's a SOP, or maybe it's a new top secret version? SOP is more likely, though. It's safer to be overly zealous with the censorship.

# ? Jul 23, 2011 15:19

Mr. Sunshine: May 15, 2008; This is a scrunt that has been in space too long and become a Lunt (Long Scrunt); Fun Shoe

Well, I can't claim to know a reason, but in pictures of the Swedish special forces weapons are commonly censored. Might be the same in France.

# ? Jul 23, 2011 23:27

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Are you guys not following anything in Egypt? Massive anti-SCAF demonstrations that started as a march from Tahrir Square to SCAF headquarters at the Ministry of Defense in Cairo, and more demonstrations in Suez and Alexandria. At least 300 wounded so far, no confirmed fatalities, demonstrators were attacked by "thugs". Spent 6 hours trying to get out of that mess, army has the whole area locked down. Things are looking pretty grim.

Also the Muslim Brotherhood has announced that contrary to their previous statements, they will be actually competing for the presidency.

Great day in Egypt.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 00:08

Ace Oliveira: Dec 27, 2009; "I wonder if there is beer on the sun."

Ham posted:

Are you guys not following anything in Egypt? Massive anti-SCAF demonstrations that started as a march from Tahrir Square to SCAF headquarters at the Ministry of Defense in Cairo, and more demonstrations in Suez and Alexandria. At least 300 wounded so far, no confirmed fatalities, demonstrators were attacked by "thugs". Spent 6 hours trying to get out of that mess, army has the whole area locked down. Things are looking pretty grim.

Also the Muslim Brotherhood has announced that contrary to their previous statements, they will be actually competing for the presidency.

Great day in Egypt.

Welp, it's on.

I guess everybody's busy with what happened in Norway. Does anyone know who those "thugs" were, Ham?

# ? Jul 24, 2011 00:21

Ham: Apr 30, 2009; You're BALD!

Ace Oliveira posted:

Welp, it's on.

I guess everybody's busy with what happened in Norway. Does anyone know who those "thugs" were, Ham?

Either pro-SCAF demonstrators/residents of that area/police or military hired thugs.

Probably a mixture of all three.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 00:27

Contraction mapping: Jul 4, 2007; THE NAZIS WERE SOCIALISTS

Ham posted:

Are you guys not following anything in Egypt? Massive anti-SCAF demonstrations that started as a march from Tahrir Square to SCAF headquarters at the Ministry of Defense in Cairo, and more demonstrations in Suez and Alexandria. At least 300 wounded so far, no confirmed fatalities, demonstrators were attacked by "thugs". Spent 6 hours trying to get out of that mess, army has the whole area locked down. Things are looking pretty grim.

Also the Muslim Brotherhood has announced that contrary to their previous statements, they will be actually competing for the presidency.

Great day in Egypt.

Naw sorry dude, we're all glued to the TV over Amy Winehouse :ohdear:

# ? Jul 24, 2011 05:43

Jut: May 16, 2005; by Ralp

Ham posted:

Also the Muslim Brotherhood has announced that contrary to their previous statements, they will be actually competing for the presidency.

So didn't see that comming :rolleyes:

Maybe it will be your god given duty to vote MB.

Edit: quite a few parallels to the Romanian revolution so far...

# ? Jul 24, 2011 06:15

pantslesswithwolves: Oct 28, 2008

Ham posted:

Are you guys not following anything in Egypt? Massive anti-SCAF demonstrations that started as a march from Tahrir Square to SCAF headquarters at the Ministry of Defense in Cairo, and more demonstrations in Suez and Alexandria. At least 300 wounded so far, no confirmed fatalities, demonstrators were attacked by "thugs". Spent 6 hours trying to get out of that mess, army has the whole area locked down. Things are looking pretty grim.

Also the Muslim Brotherhood has announced that contrary to their previous statements, they will be actually competing for the presidency.

Great day in Egypt.

Where did the MB announce they'd be running a presidential candidate? Al Masry al Youm doesn't have anything on that, and last time I checked, Freedom & Justice wasn't running a candidate for the presidency. I wasn't surprised when they announced they'd be aligning with al-Wafad, but I didn't think they'd be running a candidate so soon.

edit: did they really get over their internal rifts so quickly? I'd been reading so much about the split between the older, more cautious vanguard and the newer, more liberal members.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 07:49

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# ? May 15, 2024 15:01

Al-Saqr: Nov 11, 2007; One Day I Will Return To Your Side.

Here is an excellent sit down on aljazeera with a group of egyptians that represents the closest thing to the general consensus on egypts outlook to it's foreign policy future.Video Link

Also, I dont get why people are worried about the MB running for president, as long as they suscribe to the rules of democracy then let them, I mean hell I just watched a long interview with a salafist lawyer who wants to run for president (Hazem Salah abu ismail (sorry arabic only)) and even though he has some ideas that arent palatable to social liberals, he is a firm beleiver in democracy, diversity and the need for a fair and civil government. so if a salafist can sound reasonable then I dont view the MB running for president as a bad thing.

# ? Jul 24, 2011 07:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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