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Quentyn, Dany and Daario: 
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Jul 22, 2011 15:44
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My wife is reading AFFC right now, and she pointed a weird scene with Jaime and Tommen during Tywin's funeral. Tommen is complaining about being afraid, and Jaime says something along the lines of "you have to go inside yourself". Tommen agrees, saying (again paraphrasing) "it's like when Joffy used to..." And then Cersei interrupts, saying "Joffrey. His name was Joffrey." My wife was thinking that this might mean Joffrey was molesting poor Tommy boy at some point or the other. I said it could easily be that or that Joffrey was as evil to Tommen growing up as he was to everyone else. (if there's a place online to find the actual dialogue, let me know and I'll quote it)
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Jul 22, 2011 16:01
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I rather think it was Joffrey tormenting in little brother like bigger brothers are wont to do (I know I did with my little brother  ). Although with Joffrey it involved lots of beatings.The quote is: "The world is full of horrors, Tommen. You can fight them, or laugh at them, or look without seeing... go away inside." Tommen considered that. "I... I used to go away inside sometimes," he confessed, "when Joffy..." "Joffrey." Cersei stood over them, the wind whipping her skirta around her legs. Decius fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 16:05
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Doing some re-reading, it turns out that I forgot Ramsay knows that Bran and Rickon aren't dead. In fact, it was his idea in the first place to get Bran and Rickon stand-ins. Certainly he knows that jeyne isn't Arya; that's really not a well-kept secret. The only reason Reek gets to temporarily become Theon pre-escape is to legitimize not-Arya. Why, then, does Ramsay have Theon come into his bedroom on their wedding night? It's not as if Theon cares at all about Jeyne like he might Arya. Is there any psychological/political motive to this, or can it just be written off as "Ramsay is an insane monster?"
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Jul 22, 2011 16:05
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Calef posted:This reminded me how Tyrion, I think, in this book pointed out the mystery that the Valyrians certainly knew that Westeros was there, and ruled an empire extending over most of the world for thousands of years, and they had dragons this entire time, but no Valyrians attempted to invade Westeros at any point. Then after te Doom, the Targaryens are pretty much the only remaining Valyrians we know about, and they finally invade. I guess that Westeros, who hadn't seen any dragons, were alot easier to conquer for three people than the "old" empire were.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:08
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EC posted:My wife was thinking that this might mean Joffrey was molesting poor Tommy boy at some point or the other. I said it could easily be that or that Joffrey was as evil to Tommen growing up as he was to everyone else. Probably the latter... maybe the former. At the beginning of ACoK, Joff was shown as being a huge dick to Tommen when he was trying to practice jousting.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:09
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FairGame posted:Is there any psychological/political motive to this, or can it just be written off as "Ramsay is an insane monster?" I'm pretty sure Ramsay gets off on group sex of some sort, considering that's one of the major reasons he kept the old Reek around for his rape-hunts.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:19
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Someone on the GRRM forums had a good catch, Euron says he hosed up some Qarth priests he caught while sailing in in AFFC who told him 'a curious tale' or some such. He killed their leader and fed his remains to the rest. Then in ADWD Xaro says that Pyat Pree was sailing to Dany. Oops!
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Jul 22, 2011 16:27
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Caufman posted:There is some suggestion that at least a few of the more impressive structures (explicitly the Wall and Storm's End) were built by Bran the Builder some 8000 years ago. Things from that far back seem to have magical properties, so it's entirely possible that the Eyrie and the Hightower were also built with magic. Storm's End definitely has some sort of magic in it's stones as that's the whole reason Davos has to row Melisandre inside the walls. I want to say "welp, so much for magic!" but I guess the point is you've breached the defenses once you're inside the castle.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:31
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Scoobi posted:Someone on the GRRM forums had a good catch, Euron says he hosed up some Qarth priests he caught while sailing in in AFFC who told him 'a curious tale' or some such. He killed their leader and fed his remains to the rest. Then in ADWD Xaro says that Pyat Pree was sailing to Dany. Oops! Pyat Pree had another mention in ADwD I believe. I hope that they have some sort of more potent manifestation than getting murdered.
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Jul 22, 2011 16:34
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Anyone else notice that Victarion thinks about how all his brothers gifts are poisoned, yet continues to confide in the woman his brother gave to him as a gift?
Smiling Jack fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 16:40
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Brannock posted:There were really only four important Meereenese: Hizdahr, Galazza Galare, the Shavepate (easy enough to remember, at least), and Reznak. Everyone else is pretty much incidental. Well gently caress, the only one I remember of these are Hizdahr. I vaguely recognize shaveplate but I have no clue who the other two are. Serves me right for skimming Dany's chapters, I guess. VaultAggie fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 17:11
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I think Galazza Galare was the old nun (?) whom Dany was for some reason confiding everything to even though she was probably one of the Harpy ringleaders.
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Jul 22, 2011 17:15
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Reznak was the "perfumed senaschal" that always recommended the opposite of what the badass Shavepate wanted to do.
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Jul 22, 2011 17:17
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EC posted:Reznak was the "perfumed senaschal" that always recommended the opposite of what the badass Shavepate wanted to do. Or it was a ship...
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Jul 22, 2011 17:26
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Decius posted:Or it was a ship... Or Varys. Or Seneschal Flowers.
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Jul 22, 2011 17:59
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Has Dany done or thought anything right since the first book? Besides stealing the Unsullied.
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Jul 22, 2011 18:05
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Smiling Jack posted:Anyone else notice that Victarion thinks about how all his brothers gifts are poisoned, yet continues to confide in the woman his brother [i|gave to him as a gift[/i]? I don't think Victarion is conditioned to see any woman, especially a slave woman, as a threat.
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Jul 22, 2011 18:05
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CzarStark posted:Has Dany done or thought anything right since the first book? Besides stealing the Unsullied. Taking all the doors to the right in the house of the undying. Sending Jorah away for not coming clean with his crimes.
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Jul 22, 2011 18:29
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Lenin Stimpy posted:Taking all the doors to the right in the house of the undying. Sending Jorah away for not coming clean with his crimes. I would consider sending Jorah away one of the stupider things she's done, actually.
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Jul 22, 2011 18:48
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Get away you sexy obi-wan kenobi, stop giving me good advice and helping me at every opportunity even when you were betraying me!
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Jul 22, 2011 19:07
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Barristan is sexy Obi-Wan. Jorah is more like sexy Qui Gon Jin. Yes, I realize Jorah actually predates Qui Gon.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:23
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Scoobi posted:Get away you sexy obi-wan kenobi, stop giving me good advice and helping me at every opportunity even when you were betraying me! Shoulda have bought a Bodygroomer. Dany likes them smooth.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:25
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I still don't understand even a little bit about how Mereen was difficult to write or resolve at all.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:27
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I definitely get how it was difficult to resolve. Dany was in a situation where it was physically impossible to take her followers out of Meereen without abandoning a lot of them to certain death, so there was no immediately obvious way for her to leave without compromising her character. (Plus all the people trying to reach her) What I don't get is how he managed to write nine Dany chapters, about four of the Tyrion chapters, three Quentyn chapters, three Victarion chapters, two (three?) Barristan chapters, and somehow all those words did absolutely nothing to resolve that challenge. Ecco the Dolphin fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 19:34
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So what? Dany doesn't get mentioned for the first 3/4 of the book, we hear whispers about how the Saviour of The Slaves is dead and her dragons went nuts and ate a bunch of people, and she shows up in Westeros suddenly with a ragged group of followers and three wild dragons being like "whoo I flew all the way here boy my arms are tired!!" Knot solved. GRRM does that exact same kind of poo poo all the time to move the plot along. The way it was actually (kind of) resolved wasn't anymore satisfying -- she literally just flies on out, peace yall. are you serious? it's not even like just skipping the whole thing would effect tyrion or quentyn or victarian's arcs at all. he was happy enough to send Brienne around on a multi-chapter hunt for Sansa when we know that she's not going to find her
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Jul 22, 2011 19:37
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The knot was not how to get Dany out, but how to sequence the many different people arriving to Meereen. At least that is what GRRM said in a quote posted a few pages back.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:41
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euphronius posted:The knot was not how to get Dany out, but how to sequence the many different people arriving to Meereen. At least that is what GRRM said in a quote posted a few pages back. And he managed to dodge that completely ... I'm glad DWD came out but it did pretty much nothing to progress the plot. At least TWOW + ADOS should wrap the series up nicely, considering how much poo poo happened in ACOK + ASOS
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Jul 22, 2011 19:43
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Calef posted:This reminded me how Tyrion, I think, in this book pointed out the mystery that the Valyrians certainly knew that Westeros was there, and ruled an empire extending over most of the world for thousands of years, and they had dragons this entire time, but no Valyrians attempted to invade Westeros at any point. Then after te Doom, the Targaryens are pretty much the only remaining Valyrians we know about, and they finally invade. Nemo posted:Maybe they didn't want the Greenseers to warg into their dragons. I don't think it's something as simple as logistical issues, it's definitely something mysterious as you said. Maybe House Targaryen was assigned the task of invading and holding Westeros and it just took that long until Balerion and the other dragons were big enough to take on an entire continent. It would give a good excuse for why they were on a shithole of an island like Dragonstone for so long - either that, or they were exiled to Dragonstone. We don't really know how powerful the Targs were in Valyrian society/politics. Doesn't seem like they could be too high, being all the way on Dragonstone, but maybe they used the obsidian candles to participate in Valyrian politics from afar. Brannock posted:There were really only four important Meereenese: Hizdahr, Galazza Galare, the Shavepate (easy enough to remember, at least), and Reznak. Everyone else is pretty much incidental. Exactly. Shavepate's name is Skakaz, Galazza Galore is aka the Green Grace, Reznak's first name is the same as his last, and I don't have anything for Hizdahr. But yeah, those are really the only ones you need to know.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:47
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Brannock posted:did pretty much nothing to progress the plot. I don't know. I think a lot of stuff happened. Dany is out of Meereen and living as a feral dragon witch. Jon got thousands of Wildings through the Wall and then was Julius Caesared for his efforts. Stannis took out Deepwood Motte and maybe or maybe not died in an attack on Winterfell. Cersei got out of prison, Gregor Glegane turns up as a zombie, Keven and Purcelle are murdered by Varys, Davos is off to Skagos (no one knows he is alive), Bran meets the Three-Eyed crow and starts the process to being a transhuman wierwood/human, Jamie is off to meet zombie Cat most likely and answer for his crimes, the Prince of Dorne's plans fall apart and his son dies, Aegon Targaryen invades Westeros and is marching on Storm's End, and Arya becomes a full time assassin monk. Also: We meet Theon and he has a whole redemption (sort of) arc with some of best writing of the series! And we also find out what happened to his sister and brother. Lots of plot happened! euphronius fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 19:50
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Ray_ posted:Exactly. Shavepate's name is Skakaz, Galazza Galore is aka the Green Grace, Reznak's first name is the same as his last, and I don't have anything for Hizdahr.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:52
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I'm going to break a lance in defence of Dany's decision to dismiss Jorah. First, he was useful but no longer irreplaceable: she had plenty of sword arms at that point, and Ser Barristan was going to be a much better advisor on all things Westerosi. Secondly, go and reread his dismissal scene: he behaves with pretty much the opposite of Barristan's sincerity and humility, it would have been hard for Dany to forgive him without looking weak and inciting more treachery (Though, I believe that that is also a good example of why discipline is best served in private - in public your hand is easily forced). And thirdly, he's got a solid curriculum of doing foolish things for love, how could Dany knew that he wouldn't one day make some more? Had he stuck around, I could totally see him attempting to murder both Daario and Hizdahr, which as a reader would certainly have pleased me incomparably, but which is decidedly not what Dany wants.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:53
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NihilCredo posted:I'm going to break a lance in defence of Dany's decision to dismiss Jorah. First, he was useful but no longer irreplaceable: she had plenty of sword arms at that point, and Ser Barristan was going to be a much better advisor on all things Westerosi. Secondly, go and reread his dismissal scene: he behaves with pretty much the opposite of Barristan's sincerity and humility, it would have been hard for Dany to forgive him without looking weak and inciting more treachery (Though, I believe that that is also a good example of why discipline is best served in private - in public your hand is easily forced). And thirdly, he's got a solid curriculum of doing foolish things for love, how could Dany knew that he wouldn't one day make some more? Had he stuck around, I could totally see him attempting to murder both Daario and Hizdahr, which as a reader would certainly have pleased me incomparably, but which is decidedly not what Dany wants. Yes and also he was being a creepy old guy and making all sorts of sexual advances on her.
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Jul 22, 2011 19:54
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Lots of EVENTS and character development happened, I recognize that, but I feel like we're still in the same place we were at the end of Storm of Swords: the realm is incredibly destabilized, people are dying left and right and there's a food crisis, the Others are abooooout to invade, and Daenerys is off in Essos.
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Jul 22, 2011 20:00
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If nothing else, Dany would go down from a historical perspective as having hosed up the economy of the whole world. Half the cities in Essos depend on slaves for productivity, Westerosi, Bravosi, Summer Islanders, etc. trade with those cities. Slave trade stops, world shipping is hosed, Free Cities can no longer afford to buy off the Dothraki. Dany hosed up the whole continent of Essos. Good for her!
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Jul 22, 2011 20:06
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NihilCredo posted:I'm going to break a lance in defence of Dany's decision to dismiss Jorah. First, he was useful but no longer irreplaceable: she had plenty of sword arms at that point, and Ser Barristan was going to be a much better advisor on all things Westerosi. Secondly, go and reread his dismissal scene: he behaves with pretty much the opposite of Barristan's sincerity and humility, it would have been hard for Dany to forgive him without looking weak and inciting more treachery (Though, I believe that that is also a good example of why discipline is best served in private - in public your hand is easily forced). And thirdly, he's got a solid curriculum of doing foolish things for love, how could Dany knew that he wouldn't one day make some more? Had he stuck around, I could totally see him attempting to murder both Daario and Hizdahr, which as a reader would certainly have pleased me incomparably, but which is decidedly not what Dany wants. Counter-point; in a series where loyalty is a very rare and precious trait, and in Dany's case, where she's got a superstar thing going on and really can't trust the people around her, she got rid of a guy who saved her from an assassin, saved her dragon's eggs, protected her when Drogo was dying, and was absolutely, unswervingly loyal to her, like she was scraping a bit of poo poo off of her shoe edit: I mean, really. He could have let her dumb rear end die and gone home pardoned, which is all he wants, and he didn't. He put her life over his own interests. How often does that happen in the series. and she's like "hurr burr you're not my handsome foreign mercenary I no like you  "
hypocrite lecteur fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jul 22, 2011 |
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Jul 22, 2011 20:08
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So I've been thinking about the pregnant woman that Bran saw. His visions are obviously going backwards in time. First his father, then Lyanna and Benjen, then the pregnant lady. Maybe pregnant with Ned's father, Rickard? Then I thought about Lady Dustin talking about the matches Lord Rickard made. - His heir wed to the eldest daughter of Riverrun and the Trident - His only daughter wed to the Lord of Storm's End and the Storm Lands - His second son fostered with the Lord of the Eyrie and the Vale of Arryn Two of those were contiguous with Rickard's own lands, and the other was right next to King's Landing on the same side of the sea as the North's and the Vale's biggest ports. That's 3 of the great houses he was creating quite close alliances with. The only houses he didn't align with were: - Tyrell, staunch Targaryen supporters. After all, they were mere stewards before Aegon raised them up. - Martell, again staunch Targ supporters. Lots of marriages between the two. - Lannister, who's Lord was the Hand of the King for 20 years during the time the Stark alliances were taking place. It seems to me that Lord Rickard was up to something. It's almost certain that he was creating tight bonds between the Great Houses that weren't strongly aligned with the Targaryens...but to what end? And why? Was his mother the pregnant lady that wanted her son to avenge her? Hmm...
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Jul 22, 2011 20:32
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euphronius posted:Yes and also he was being a creepy old guy and making all sorts of sexual advances on her. Yeah but she sort of liked it. Remember her nipples betraying her? Speaking of, was that one of the 3 treasons?  hypocrite lecteur posted:edit: I mean, really. He could have let her dumb rear end die and gone home pardoned, which is all he wants, and he didn't. He put her life over his own interests. How often does that happen in the series. and she's like "hurr burr you're not my handsome foreign mercenary I no like you
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Jul 22, 2011 20:40
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Ray_ posted:He should have gotten his sword hilt shaped like a naked chick and constantly molested it in front of her. That seems to be the way to win Dany's heart. You seem almost jealous with that statement. In any case, Jorah was virtually asking to be thrown out. He really shouldn't have been that retarded
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Jul 22, 2011 20:52
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hypocrite lecteur posted:Counter-point; in a series where loyalty is a very rare and precious trait, and in Dany's case, where she's got a superstar thing going on and really can't trust the people around her, she got rid of a guy who saved her from an assassin, saved her dragon's eggs, protected her when Drogo was dying, and was absolutely, unswervingly loyal to her, like she was scraping a bit of poo poo off of her shoe The reason Jorah risked his life for Dany was love (or infatuation), not loyalty. (He sucked at loyalty. Had loyalty been what moved him, he would have stopped writing to Varys way, way before Qarth.) That is not something you want to have to rely on. Best case he grows out of it and goes back to Varys; bad case he kills one or more other suitors out of jealousy; worst case he goes mad with unrequited love and commits murder-suicide.
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Jul 22, 2011 21:00
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