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Is Bran going to be sitting in a tree going, "I'm helping! I'm helping! Why is everyone running away?" as his warg army of corpses is tearing everyone to shreds?
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Jul 23, 2011 04:25
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Scoobi posted:Is Bran going to be sitting in a tree going, "I'm helping! I'm helping! Why is everyone running away?" as his warg army of corpses is tearing everyone to shreds? the road to hell is paved with good intentions, as grrm illustrates at every possible opportunity
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Jul 23, 2011 04:39
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Smiling Jack posted:Anyone else notice that Victarion thinks about how all his brothers gifts are poisoned, yet continues to confide in the woman his brother gave to him as a gift? Is there more to her I'm missing? I did a brief scan of books 3-4 but didn't find anything. She seems suspiciously pliant and available, though. Speaking of scans, I hopped thru the thread and didn't see mention, so: any thoughts on the sex factor in ADWD? Maybe just because it was the first book in the series I've read having seen the HBO series, but I got a little bit of a gratuitous titty and rape vibe on my first read. I may just be projecting all the sexposition from the TV show, though. Or maybe it was just all the Bolton family quality time.
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Jul 23, 2011 04:40
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computer parts posted:I thought there was a bit in Melisandre's chapter about how she sees the Great Other and his wolf companion or something like that. I thought about Bran then, or at least wargs in general.
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Jul 23, 2011 04:59
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Does anyone think that this is justice?Dany 1 posted:A rich woman came, whose husband and sons had died defending the city walls. During the sack she had fled to her brother in fear. When she returned, she found her house had been turned into a brothel. The whores had bedecked themselves in her jewels and clothes. She wanted her house back, and her jewels. “They can keep the clothes,” she allowed. Dany granted her the jewels but ruled the house was lost when she abandoned it. Seems like a travesty to me and one more count against Dany being a good and just ruler. I mean if I evacuated my house for a hurricane, came back to find squatters living there and running a whorehouse, and the judge awarded my home to the squatters? It's just so ridiculous, it's hard to fathom.
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Jul 23, 2011 05:16
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If you can't hold a kingdom, you certainly don't have a right to it. Why shouldn't this apply to smaller tracts of land?
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Jul 23, 2011 05:22
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Yeah everything is very much 'you own what you can hold' there. If Dany came back and Rhaegal and Viserion suddenly listened to Selmy instead, you wouldn't be like, "Hey those are hers!" You'd say tough luck and also, awesome.
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Jul 23, 2011 05:30
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It sucks for the woman in question, but if Dany finds in her favor what is she going to do about all the other claims? None of the slaves in the city owned loving anything before the attack, do they get kicked out of where they're staying or have to start paying rent? That's not gonna make them very happy! It's almost like there's no right answer in a situation where everyone hates everyone.
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Jul 23, 2011 05:31
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I don't think so, there's been a pretty clear parallel drawn between the evil of Melisandre's magic and the benign nature of Bran's. Melisandre's requires the sacrifice of other people, while the magic of the children requires sacrifice of the self. It's becoming increasingly clear that worship of R'hllor is not simply "evil." Melisandre uses some pretty brutal methods, to be sure, but her chapters in Dance show that she doesn't really know what she's doing. Thoros of Myr is also a priest of R'hllor, but everyone seems to regard him as a pretty nice guy. I also don't believe we can regard Bran's magic as "benign" anymore with the information we're given in Dance. Varamyr is a pretty twisted guy in the prologue, and his POV reveals that warging can be used to very nasty ends. Bran uses his newfound powers to steal Hodor's body, even though Hodor is obviously very distressed by this. Coupled with Melisandre's visions, these reveals about "green" magic show that it's hardly a force of "good." I don't believe we have been given the whole picture of the R'hllor/Other conflict, and my guess is that it will prove to be far more complex than a simple good vs. evil dichotomy.
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Jul 23, 2011 05:50
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Ray_ posted:Does anyone think that this is justice? Really? Not giving someone a house is now a 'travesty'? Meanwhile she's the only person on the entire continent who seems to think it isn't ok to treat people as chattel, and that makes her not good and just? I'm not going to argue she's perfect, and I'm not going to argue that she's making all the smart decisions, because she really isn't. But there is a reason for all her lovely decisions - she pays more attention to the welfare of all her subjects than virtually any other leader in the series, and is also basically the only ruler who seems to recognise that her subjects are actual people. A few isolated incidents where her crazy Targ side overrules her judgement is not nearly enough to say she isn't good. Also good =/= just. See: Stannis
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Jul 23, 2011 06:32
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hampig posted:I'm not going to argue she's perfect, and I'm not going to argue that she's making all the smart decisions, because she really isn't. But there is a reason for all her lovely decisions - she pays more attention to the welfare of all her subjects than virtually any other leader in the series, and is also basically the only ruler who seems to recognise that her subjects are actual people. A few isolated incidents where her crazy Targ side overrules her judgement is not nearly enough to say she isn't good. Right on. I do not buy at all the conclusion that the failures of Dany's queendom are because she is dumb and horny all the time. There's something compellingly heroic about Dany's character. Has anyone else in this world ever had Dany's idea of liberating slaves? Westeros has outlawed slavery and Braavos was founded by escaped slaves, but I don't recall reading about any other ruler whose conquest included the explicit goal of striking chains. She has noble ideals and the courage to pursue them, which won her some victories and lead to a new host of conflicts. Her conquest of Slaver's Bay is a military (and I would say moral) victory but also a political slough. That's a rich theme to explore, I really see her as a Lawrence of Arabia character whose source of strength is also their weakness. Dany is also a Targaryen, conscious and weary of the 'taint' but also prone to fits of dragonish rage. Overall I find her an interesting character and I enjoyed her chapters. I can accept that some people find her chapters boring, but it's just too simplistic to say her failures are due to her being a retard only interested in Daaria the whole time.
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Jul 23, 2011 07:06
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Juaguocio posted:Coupled with Melisandre's visions, these reveals about "green" magic show that it's hardly a force of "good." I don't think any power of any god(s) is clearly "good". Even if it was it is still channeled through people who are neither clearly good or evil and can be used for either. However, Melisandre is probably not a very objective judge about how power not stemming from her god is aligned. We pretty clearly know now she's playing all this poo poo by the ear and doesn't even know about Dany and believes Stannis would be the saviour, even though she had to cheat with his sword. And his birth signs. She seems very prone to deluding herself ("I ask for glimpses of AA, and all it shows me is Snow!"). Decius fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Jul 23, 2011 |
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Jul 23, 2011 07:16
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Juaguocio posted:It's becoming increasingly clear that worship of R'hllor is not simply "evil." Melisandre uses some pretty brutal methods, to be sure, but her chapters in Dance show that she doesn't really know what she's doing. Thoros of Myr is also a priest of R'hllor, but everyone seems to regard him as a pretty nice guy. I also don't believe we can regard Bran's magic as "benign" anymore with the information we're given in Dance. Varamyr is a pretty twisted guy in the prologue, and his POV reveals that warging can be used to very nasty ends. Bran uses his newfound powers to steal Hodor's body, even though Hodor is obviously very distressed by this. Coupled with Melisandre's visions, these reveals about "green" magic show that it's hardly a force of "good." Melisandre births killer shadows so her arguments about the night being dark and full of terrors or whatever are hypocritical horseshit.
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Jul 23, 2011 08:58
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I find myself wondering whether Stannis has bought into Melisandre's whole R'hllor deal. When you first meet him he doesn't seem too enthused, but he's the kind of character where if he didn't believe he was actually wielding Lightbringer he would be the first one call it out. He certainly is pragmatic enough to see its value and power, but I wonder whether he has fully given himself over. I think Stannis' sense of justice and duty will make for very interesting dynamics if/when he discovers that a) he is not Azor Ahai/Prince who was promised and b) there is a claimant to the throne whom he is happy to support over himself. I might be ambivalent towards Stannis as a leader, but I think he would make a kickass 2IC. I'm also curious about what Victarion's dusky woman knows about the red priests that would make her try and attack Moqorro on sight. hampig fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Jul 23, 2011 |
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Jul 23, 2011 09:03
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What's the deal with Lightbringer anyway? When Stannis originally pulls the sword from the burning figure in ACOK, the sword is hot and gets all burned, as if it were just covered in wildfire. And then later at the wall, "Lightbringer" glows with a supernatural light but isn't hot at all. I'm tempted to say that it's a glamor and Melisandre knows the sword is fake, but her POV seems to suggest that she truly thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai, so why would she make a fake sword for him?
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Jul 23, 2011 09:25
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hampig posted:I find myself wondering whether Stannis has bought into Melisandre's whole R'hllor deal. When you first meet him he doesn't seem too enthused, but he's the kind of character where if he didn't believe he was actually wielding Lightbringer he would be the first one call it out. He certainly is pragmatic enough to see its value and power, but I wonder whether he has fully given himself over. Stannis desperately wants to be important. He grew up in Robert's shadow and developed his hard-as-gently caress attitude as a shield, an explanation for why everybody liked Robert but nobody liked him. I think he totally buys into R'hllor because he wants what Robert had. If Stannis was at all willing to subjugate his own ego and be the second-in-command, he would have supported Renly. He knew that Renly was far more likeable than himself. GRRM repeatedly compares Renly to Robert, except Renly is smarter and not a warrior--seemingly more fit for the throne. Renly would have been a good king. And it's not as if the Baratheons had a true hereditary claim to the throne. Robert led a revolution, it wouldn't be so crazy to skip one brother. And I think Stannis recognizes this--that's why the peach is so significant to him. He realizes that Renly was, at heart, a very good person and would have been a very good king. But he clings to this stupid idea of his own right to the throne because he is tired of being overshadowed. I think Stannis is definitely one of the more interesting characters in the series. He's sort of a protagonist--or at least an ally of the protagonists. But he knowingly fucks over Westeros based on his own bullshit claim to the throne, all motivated by his inferiority complex.
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Jul 23, 2011 09:25
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I think it's a little more than that. I don't think he really wants to be on the throne at all, because he's tired of being overshadowed or for any other reason. But he honestly, truly believes that as the next in the line of succession, he MUST do everything in his power to sit the throne. If he was simply a pragmatist I'm sure he would have supported Renly, but the point is that (for whatever reason) he feels absolutely bound by duty and by the law. It's that trait that'll make it so interesting if he comes across someone who appears to have a better claim than him - he's the only one of the players who will relinquish his claim, if the right reasons present themselves. As an aside, it's often presented that the people who favor the rule of law don't have the best interests of the realm at heart (Ned, Stannis). I don't think it's that simple. Rules of succession are in place so that, among other reasons (holding onto power), the Seven Kingdoms don't descend into civil war every single time a monarch dies. You can make a very strong case that even if, in this one case, it might be ok to ignore the laws, you still shouldn't because it's not a precedent you want to set if you have the good of the realm in mind. Linguica posted:What's the deal with Lightbringer anyway? I was wondering the same thing. We know for sure now that Melisandre can maintain a glamor, but in the same book we don't get any indication that she's faking it. Maybe it needs to be tempered properly. hampig fucked around with this message at 09:42 on Jul 23, 2011 |
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Jul 23, 2011 09:36
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hampig posted:I think it's a little more than that. I don't think he really wants to be on the throne at all, because he's tired of being overshadowed or for any other reason. But he honestly, truly believes that as the next in the line of succession, he MUST do everything in his power to sit the throne. If he was simply a pragmatist I'm sure he would have supported Renly, but the point is that (for whatever reason) he feels absolutely bound by duty and by the law. It's that trait that'll make it so interesting if he comes across someone who appears to have a better claim than him - he's the only one of the players who will relinquish his claim, if the right reasons present themselves. But how can you argue that the "rule of law" dictates that Stannis is king when Robert himself had no real claim to the throne? And beyond that, Robert died believing that he had legitimate children (and in fact did have multiple natural children, whom Stannis knows about). In a time of great turmoil, Stannis is choosing a very narrow conception of succession rights that actually harms the Baratheons claim to the throne. He could support Joffrey or Renly and by doing either would likely cement the foundation of a Baratheon dynasty. Instead he supports himself, knowing that Joffrey has a better claim to the throne (in popular perception at least) and Renly would be a better king and is better liked. Stannis believes in some sort of inherent power to the law that doesn't exist--the law is only as powerful as the swords that enforce it, as Robert proved.
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Jul 23, 2011 10:08
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Well I think the idea is the he doesn't get to pick and choose the bits of the law he likes. It's not just in this one issue that he chooses to be stubborn about the law. It's a huge part of his character. He knights Davos while cutting off his fingers and insists on burning Mance even when he has strong personal and political reasons not to. I don't disagree that his choices harm the chances of a Baratheon dynasty, I just don't think he gives a toss about establishing a dynasty. There are hints throughout that Robert's rebellion made Stannis very uneasy. I don't think Stannis is ignorant of the fact that the throne is decided by force - that would be Viserys. But I think he's guided by the view that the right thing to do is what the law says in the first place, and if that needs to be backed up by force, so be it. That same view might also mean he could be convinced to step aside for someone he thinks is placed before him - so far no-one has given him that choice, he has only been given arguments driven by pragmatism or self-interest. hampig fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jul 23, 2011 |
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Jul 23, 2011 10:24
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Doibhilin posted:But how can you argue that the "rule of law" dictates that Stannis is king when Robert himself had no real claim to the throne? Stannis is a psychologically compelling character. He has a fervent, almost dogmatic belief in the law, but I'm never really quite sure why. He tries to apply the law no matter what without very much regard to the reasons or sometimes even the consequences. He continues to protect the letter of the law even when it rarely seems to do him any good. Stannis is aware that people do not love him, especially compared to how they loved Robert. His stubbornness has only ever worked on Davos while alienating pretty much everyone else. Robert's rebellion is definitely a source of cognitive dissonance in his head. When he talks about it to Davos in ASOS, he frames the rebellion as a choice between his blood or his leige, strangely not as a choice between what is right and what is lawful. If he ever does consider the rebellion as illegal, it seems even that hasn't shaken his unyielding faith in the law enough to consider an alternate line of succession.
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Jul 23, 2011 12:43
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hampig posted:I was wondering the same thing. We know for sure now that Melisandre can maintain a glamor, but in the same book we don't get any indication that she's faking it. Maybe it needs to be tempered properly. ie. plunged into the heart of your wife
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Jul 23, 2011 14:14
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Sexpansion posted:ie. plunged into the heart of your wife I don't think it works if your wife is a total bitch. Something about the whole Red Priests/Asshai thing bugs me. These fuckers are up to something, I know it. Their whole thing screams "fantasy bad guys" from the showing up at opportune times to the wearing masks around outsiders to the human sacrifice. I hate to go nuts on the theories but I've got two. All magic in this world seems to involve sacrifice somehow. You either sacrifice yourself (Bran, Faceless Men) or someone/something else (Red Priests) to get the desired effects. The other stuff seems to be claptrap. I don't see magic proving that R'hllor or the God of Many Faces is real because people doing it adhere to those religions, especially when they appear to be doing the same stuff. I have the feeling that in the end, Bran is being set up to bring back the old gods of the North, who kept whatever is responsible for the Others and the Red Priests away. There's a reason that Valyria never invaded Westeros until after the Doom and I think it has something to do with the old gods being displaced by the Seven. I may be reading too much into it, though.
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Jul 23, 2011 15:23
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Sexpansion posted:ie. plunged into the heart of your wife I don't think anyone would mind this happening, Stannis least of all.
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Jul 23, 2011 15:43
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Ambiguatron posted:Something about the whole Red Priests/Asshai thing bugs me. These fuckers are up to something, I know it. Their whole thing screams "fantasy bad guys" from the showing up at opportune times to the wearing masks around outsiders to the human sacrifice. There are a lot of groups whose motivations we still know nothing about. Even though we've seen him, we don't really know what Bloodraven is up to, or the Maesters, or the Red Priests, Marwyn the mage, Quaithe, or even the Faceless Men (they seem to be interested in whatever Marwyn is doing, else why kill Pate & take his place? I know nobody paid to have some random kid killed) quote:I hate to go nuts on the theories but I've got two. All magic in this world seems to involve sacrifice somehow. You either sacrifice yourself (Bran, Faceless Men) or someone/something else (Red Priests) to get the desired effects. The other stuff seems to be claptrap. This sounds reasonable for the red priests. Fire consumes, and their power is linked to that. I don't know if it applies to the magic we've seen in the north though. Warging doesn't seem to require sacrifice in any real way unless you start twisting metaphors. Neither do the "green dreams". I suppose I can see what you mean with Bran needing to be locked into a tree to become a greenseer, but his situation is kind of unique. Red priest magic definitely costs something though, either life, as we've seen in many examples, or "vitality" I guess would be the way to put it (Beric, Stannis). Consuming the symbols of other gods seems to increase their power too.
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Jul 23, 2011 15:53
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Neurosis posted:I don't think anyone would mind this happening, Stannis least of all. But who is Stannis's real queen? 
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Jul 23, 2011 16:07
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Maybe he should plunge the sword into his daughter instead, she does sound a bit of a mong.
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Jul 23, 2011 16:16
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VaultAggie posted:That was by far one of the funniest parts of the book. Victarion just chucks them overboard without a second thought. Yeah. I'm enjoying Victarion while he's around. I just know he's ending up as dragon barbeque in the next book.
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Jul 23, 2011 16:47
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Doibhilin posted:But how can you argue that the "rule of law" dictates that Stannis is king when Robert himself had no real claim to the throne? And beyond that, Robert died believing that he had legitimate children (and in fact did have multiple natural children, whom Stannis knows about). In a time of great turmoil, Stannis is choosing a very narrow conception of succession rights that actually harms the Baratheons claim to the throne. He could support Joffrey or Renly and by doing either would likely cement the foundation of a Baratheon dynasty. Instead he supports himself, knowing that Joffrey has a better claim to the throne (in popular perception at least) and Renly would be a better king and is better liked. Stannis believes in some sort of inherent power to the law that doesn't exist--the law is only as powerful as the swords that enforce it, as Robert proved. Robert (and Stannis and Renly) have a Targ grandmother (great-grandmother?), so they do have a tenuous claim. But more importantly, it's right of conquest. Aerys was deposed and his House was exiled, and House Baratheon became the legal royal house. If anything, Stannis is embracing the legal conception of succession rights - his dynasty is, legally (in his view), the royal house, and since Joffrey and his siblings are not Robert's children, he is the king by being Robert's eldest sibling.
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Jul 23, 2011 17:22
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Adama posted:Just caught up with the thread, and had a few questions after having finished the book last week: I am curious about this as well. I don't recall anything about the dragons liking Brown Ben Plumm. Though to be honest, I don't remember much of anything about Brown Ben Plumm from the other books. meanolmrcloud posted:So, I've been thinking about the 5YG I was thinking along the same lines. I'm curious if GRRM decided to just work some sort of gap (maybe more like 1-2 years instead of 5) into the next book. There are a couple of plot lines which would now need at least a chapter or two to be dealt with on a shorter time frame: Dany, Victarion, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis. The rest (Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Davos, etc.) seem like they could be put on the back burner for a year or two and then have that gap filled in with like a one chapter explanation. I'm probably wrong, because the easiest thing to do would have been to put the gap in between ADWD and WoW, but he might be intending to have WoW cover a longer timespan to give the Stark kids and the dragons a chance to age.
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Jul 23, 2011 19:24
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NihilCredo posted:But who is Stannis's real queen?
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Jul 23, 2011 19:26
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:Maybe he should plunge the sword into his daughter instead, she does sound a bit of a mong. Nice, lil bit of the ol' casual racism to spice things up.
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Jul 23, 2011 19:30
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So do we have any ideas on where the Blackfish went? I'm hoping he'll pop up in TWOW or at least be mentioned.
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Jul 23, 2011 19:31
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hypocrite lecteur posted:Nice, lil bit of the ol' casual racism to spice things up. Racism 
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Jul 23, 2011 19:52
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Ambiguatron posted:I have the feeling that in the end, Bran is being set up to bring back the old gods of the North, who kept whatever is responsible for the Others and the Red Priests away.
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Jul 23, 2011 19:54
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:Racism
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Jul 23, 2011 19:58
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I for one hope that little nig Tyrion gets what's coming to him. What? Racism? Me?
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Jul 23, 2011 20:06
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Acceptableloss posted:I am curious about this as well. I don't recall anything about the dragons liking Brown Ben Plumm. Though to be honest, I don't remember much of anything about Brown Ben Plumm from the other books. When he first meets Dany, he claims that he has "a drop of dragon blood in me". You're supposed to assume at that point that he just has a big ego and is making poo poo up. In one of the Dunk & Egg stories you meet some Plumm guy, and it turns out, they really did have an ancestor who married a Targaryen. So presumably, it's all true, and dragons like Targs more than other people. And Tyrion knows all this poo poo because he is a dragon expert. Long story short, Tyrion is going to be the royal dragon trainer in the next book. lapse fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Jul 23, 2011 |
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Jul 23, 2011 20:12
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Mong is commonly used in British vernacular to refer to an ugly girl.
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Jul 23, 2011 20:13
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Haha sorry to break it to you but sometimes words have different meanings in different countries. You will have to take off your Captain Anti-Racist costume now 
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Jul 23, 2011 20:26
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Limp Wristed Limey posted:Haha sorry to break it to you but sometimes words have different meanings in different countries. You will have to take off your Captain Anti-Racist costume now "Mong" does come from Mongoloid. Also, picking on that poor girl because she suffers from leprosy is a pretty clear case of ableism. 
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Jul 23, 2011 20:32
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