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Liesmith posted:Right but honestly who gives a gently caress now? A little taste of it is interesting sure but we aren't reading books about the blackfyre rebellion we are reading about the Prince that was Promised We're not reading about the Prince That Was Promised, he doesn't even have his own POV. We're reading about pink wearing psychopaths and frey cooks.
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Jul 25, 2011 17:30
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:The point was to flesh out Bloodraven's history, but it was still unnecessary. I seriously wonder what percent of readers know who the gently caress Bloodraven is besides some guy from history that gets mentioned and what percentage of those connect it with the history lesson from that chapter. I posit that if GRRM were the kind of writer that cuts something because it would fly over the head of X% of his readers, none of us would still give a poo poo about his saga.
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Jul 25, 2011 17:36
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NihilCredo posted:
Yeah, the book really gave a lot of information about the Rebellion. Like how Daemon Blackfyre rebelled over a woman and not because he was a greedy bastard. That will probably tie up on Aegon who might have that name, but who I'm 99% certain is not Aegon VI, son of Rhaegar. But having it take up 60% of a Jaime chapter wasn't the best decision from a writing viewpoint.
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Jul 25, 2011 17:41
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Bittersteel and Bloodraven were the sons of Bracken and Blackwood mothers, respectively. The passage explains quite a bit about why the chips fell that particular way during the Blackfyre Rebellion
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DarkCrawler posted:Oh yeah, and anyone here who doesn't think that Aegon/Young Griff is actually Aegon? Remember, the Golden Company is full of descendants of silver-haired Targaryen bastards (Daemon's five sons, Aerion, rest of the Blackfyre pretenders over the years). Varys and Illyrio probably had one lying around somewhere. And yet in like four chapters he's closer to conquering Westeros than Daenerys in five books. I don't care if he's fake, he should probably win.
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Jul 25, 2011 18:46
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People still think that he ever planned on having Dany actually get to Westeros?
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Jul 25, 2011 19:04
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MaximumBob posted:Presumably his knowledge of the drains is important since it comes up multiple times. There are 514 Second Sons. You probably can't lay siege to the castle with that number, but if you sneak them inside and catch the garrison off guard, that's probably enough to murder everyone who doesn't decide that Tyrion's claim to the castle isn't so bad after all.
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Jul 25, 2011 19:13
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Calef posted:People still think that he ever planned on having Dany actually get to Westeros? Well no but... gently caress you. Dany doesn't deserve to go to Westeros because she is stupid.
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Jul 25, 2011 19:16
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Filthy Monkey posted:Maybe he sneaks in through the drains himself, with the goal of killing everybody with his precious poisonous mushrooms we are are constantly told he still has on him. Well he did use some of them to kill Nurse VVV It's unclear whether he used all of them or just some. furushotakeru fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jul 25, 2011 |
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Jul 25, 2011 19:17
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Filthy Monkey posted:Maybe he sneaks in through the drains himself, with the goal of killing everybody with his precious poisonous mushrooms we are are constantly told he still has on him. He fed those to Nurse in a soup while he was "tending" to his illness.
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Jul 25, 2011 19:17
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He said he only used a few slivers of them for the soup. Although, I wonder if mushrooms do not degrade after spending several weeks hidden in a sweaty boot in hot weather. (It also sounded like it would make Tyrion ridiculously uncomfortable and clumsy - dwarves AFAIK are stunted but their feet are pretty much regular sized.)
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Jul 25, 2011 19:37
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Sarkozymandias posted:And yet in like four chapters he's closer to conquering Westeros than Daenerys in five books. I don't care if he's fake, he should probably win. Oh, totally. Daenerys doesn't deserve the dragons. I mean I don't care either way, I'm rooting for Stannis.
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Jul 25, 2011 20:12
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DarkCrawler posted:Not sure why that chapter was in the books at all, it might have served as the opening Jaime chapter in AWOW but seemed like an completely useless addition here. As much as people complain about not much happening in ADWD, could you imagine how the book would have been received if it didn't have those chapters?
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Jul 25, 2011 20:41
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NihilCredo posted:I posit that if GRRM were the kind of writer that cuts something because it would fly over the head of X% of his readers, none of us would still give a poo poo about his saga. The info dumps in earlier books were handled better. Rarely did we get a chapter where it was just a character sitting down and going into monologue about the past. On the occasion where this did happen, like the Rid Viper's speech about his sister and the Lannisters, we had an established reason to care. Bloodraven is a figure from the past. If you didn't read The Mystery Knight, you have a good chance of not knowing who he is or just filing him away with all the other random dudes from history that are flavor rather then of story importance. Given how little he's mentioned (2 total times in ADWD), it's easy to miss that he's the dude in the tree. Given that he's refered to as Bloodraven usually, Bryden Rivers sometimes, and Blackwood never, you have a good chance of also missing that the Blackwood deal is about him. Readers were given a slim and easily miss-able reason to care about the history lesson, hence why it came off as a boring chapter about nothing. Details and backstory are fine and have been handled well in the past, but they were handled ungracefully in ADWD. Not to mention the fatigue that comes from being 5000 pages into this story, having a huge goddamn set of loose ends and details everywhere, and suddenly being expected to care about another historical event with another set of players. If the Blackfyre rebellion had been a bigger deal from the start of the series, maybe I could have mustered the energy to care about the chapter but it and all it's loose ends feel like a series of ideas that Martin came up with after SoS instead of an organic part of the series (seriously, was Blackfyre, Bittersteel, Bloodraven, or the Golden Company mentioned at all before AFFC?). SmugDogMillionaire fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jul 25, 2011 |
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Jul 25, 2011 21:06
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FMguru posted:As much as people complain about not much happening in ADWD, could you imagine how the book would have been received if it didn't have those chapters? I would rather have some closure on Mereen or some of the other plotlines then have Jaime, Cersei, and the crew pop up for a couple chapters, resolve their lame cliffhangers, only to immediately plunge back into another one. It's hard to muster excitment for things like Cersei's trial when it's spread across 3 books. Rob went from a kid to a king to dead in the same number of books it's taking for Cersei's trial to resolve itself.
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Jul 25, 2011 21:12
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Master Kush posted:That is good to hear. Though I still am a bit concerned, as the scale of the books do increase, resulting in more expenses. They could cheap out and do what they are doing now and showing little battles with a few people or skipping them altogether. On one hand it would increase the longevity of the show as less expense means the greater chance it would be renewed, but I would be disappointed if they scale things down or skipped things such as the battle of the Blackwater. Well, considering there's only like three battles they'd ever have to really show across ACOK/ASOS, and then no big battles in AFFC/ADWD, they might be able to cut expenses just by virtue of the plot itself. I still find the complaint about 'not much happening' in ADWD to be hilariously false.
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Jul 25, 2011 21:27
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Azure_Horizon posted:I still find the complaint about 'not much happening' in ADWD to be hilariously false. Well, the whole Meereen half of the plot I think was definitely a little dragged out. But yeah, I don't know where the hell people get off claiming nothing happened in Jon's chapters. What? The dude forged an alliance with thousands of wildlings, re-manned forts that had lain abandoned for centuries, started restoration of said forts, exploited the conflict between Stannis, Cersei, and the Iron Bank to conjure up enough money out of thin loving air to feed all these people through the winter, then got all Caesar'd. It was a great plotline, and really eventful. I dunno how on earth people are complaining about that.
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Jul 25, 2011 21:37
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Well, the whole Meereen half of the plot I think was definitely a little dragged out. But yeah, I don't know where the hell people get off claiming nothing happened in Jon's chapters. What? The dude forged an alliance with thousands of wildlings, re-manned forts that had lain abandoned for centuries, started restoration of said forts, exploited the conflict between Stannis, Cersei, and the Iron Bank to conjure up enough money out of thin loving air to feed all these people through the winter, then got all Caesar'd. It was a great plotline, and really eventful. I dunno how on earth people are complaining about that. I love how he is working his rear end off, has 13 balls in the air, and then gets that letter about how the rescue mission went to hell and "there are dead things in the water".  Then things get even more frantic and Ramsay send him a letter. Loved the Jon chapters.
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Jul 25, 2011 21:44
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Well, the whole Meereen half of the plot I think was definitely a little dragged out. But yeah, I don't know where the hell people get off claiming nothing happened in Jon's chapters. What? The dude forged an alliance with thousands of wildlings, re-manned forts that had lain abandoned for centuries, started restoration of said forts, exploited the conflict between Stannis, Cersei, and the Iron Bank to conjure up enough money out of thin loving air to feed all these people through the winter, then got all Caesar'd. It was a great plotline, and really eventful. I dunno how on earth people are complaining about that. I will agree that the Meereen half was a drag, but I'm one of the few who enjoyed the political side of it all. The fact that Dany can't appease everyone, the fact that she's got her hands tied behind her back because of all the people chomping at the bit to either see her dead or get her on their side. I think Drogon coming back was a significant plot movement and can only hope to escalate her chapters in TWOW (though I have full faith that book will be the best ASOIAF book yet).
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Jul 25, 2011 21:47
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I hated AFFC but I thought ADWD was pretty good. I also think both books would have been improved if they were published as they were initially intended to be, rather than splitting them up by POV characters. The concurrent events would have complemented each other nicely. And, if GRRM had cut down on some of the Brienne and Dany chapters, both books would have both been amazing.
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Jul 25, 2011 21:57
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:Given that he's refered to as Bloodraven usually, Bryden Rivers sometimes, and Blackwood never, you have a good chance of also missing that the Blackwood deal is about him.
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Jul 25, 2011 22:06
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DirtyRobot posted:I also think both books would have been improved if they were published as they were initially intended to be, rather than splitting them up by POV characters. The concurrent events would have complemented each other nicely. And, if GRRM had cut down on some of the Brienne and Dany chapters, both books would have both been amazing. Even if it was combined into a single book, it'd have to be two volumes. Anything over 1000 pages is going to fall apart pretty quickly.
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Jul 25, 2011 22:10
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A significant portion of both volumes could be cut in the process of combining them into one (still very large) book. Several multi-chapter POVs are there only to allow Martin to explore the world and don't advance the plot in any meaningful way.
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Jul 25, 2011 23:05
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Xander77 posted:Seriously, where is that info mentioned? I got most of the "subtle" stuff about this book, but completely missed that one. No fault of yours, it's neither in the book nor in the short stories, just some magazine Q&A Martin did a while ago. From ADWD you can figure out that some Great Bastards came from there, but not specifically which. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/ Though it might have been in Mystery Knight too, I'm not sure.
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Jul 25, 2011 23:28
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You learn about Bloodraven's parentage in the short stories. Not in the comic versions though, I think. I had no idea he would be the three-eyed crow though, that was pretty awesome. Secret Targ (kind of)! 
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Jul 25, 2011 23:33
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SmugDogMillionaire posted:Readers were given a slim and easily miss-able reason to care about the history lesson, hence why it came off as a boring chapter about nothing. Details and backstory are fine and have been handled well in the past, but they were handled ungracefully in ADWD. Not to mention the fatigue that comes from being 5000 pages into this story, having a huge goddamn set of loose ends and details everywhere, and suddenly being expected to care about another historical event with another set of players. If the Blackfyre rebellion had been a bigger deal from the start of the series, maybe I could have mustered the energy to care about the chapter but it and all it's loose ends feel like a series of ideas that Martin came up with after SoS instead of an organic part of the series (seriously, was Blackfyre, Bittersteel, Bloodraven, or the Golden Company mentioned at all before AFFC?). _Catelyn used Blackfyre as an example on why Rob shouldn't legitimize Jon. _Stannis named him as a famous traitor when he explain to Davos why traitors must be killed. _I think the whole succession crisis leading to the rebellion is also discussed by the Red Viper and Tyrion in one of Sansa chapter. And I am also pretty sure Lives of Four Kings, the book that Tyrion gives as a gift to Joffrey, is on the Young Dragon and his failed conquest of Dorne, Baleor the Blessed, Aegon the Unworthy and Daeron II so it must covers the Rebellions. _Jayme also tell Brienne that Aerys the Mad only understood that Robert was the biggest menace to Targaryan rules since the Blackfyres after the battle of the Bells. And Maegor Blackfire's death is listed as one of Barristan's achievement in the Kingsguard book. In ADWD, Bloodraven also claim that the Blackfish was named Bryden in his honor and it would make sense because the Blackwood are apparently ones of the Tully's main bannermen. The second Blackfire rebellion would also explain why Hoster Tully never went to a Frey wedding.
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Jul 25, 2011 23:48
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Toplowtech posted:The second Blackfire rebellion would also explain why Hoster Tully never went to a Frey wedding. Eh? I missed this.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:05
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If I were Aegon I'd send Mace Tyrell an offer to make Maergery his queen, have him sack Kings Landing, smash Tommens head against the wall and the capture Cerise so he can choke her to death. Aegon was Rhaneys little brother, and he's descended from Valeria, so he's a good Valonquar candidate.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:16
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Brannock posted:Eh? I missed this. *Said daughter was married to Butterwell because she was having sex with one of the kitchenboy in the Twin main kitchen during the middle of the night. Her 4 years old** bother actually found them and made so much noise that half the castle came to see what was going on. **Considering his age and the date of the rebellion (212 after Aegon's Landing), her 4 year old brother would be Walder Frey (born in 208 AL). Walder Frey, engineering terrible weddings since 212 AL.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:25
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Xander77 posted:Seriously, where is that info mentioned? I got most of the "subtle" stuff about this book, but completely missed that one. The "Bloodraven = 3-eyed crow" theory has been around ever since the novella The Sworn Sword. That's where you get most of the information about him. You definitely wouldn't have had enough information to work with, just from the main series, but if you read the novellas, a lot of people picked up on it. A lot of us were pretty sure it was him for various reasons.  http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2327492&userid=57710#post329627020
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Jul 26, 2011 00:29
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Calef posted:People still think that he ever planned on having Dany actually get to Westeros? Again, I totally would not mind if she never did. I'm not as attached to Westeros as most readers are. It is where the bulk of change is happening, but I also find the free cities and other parts of Essos much more interesting because they aren't as homogenous as Westeros. I hope to see more of the world, like Asshai and Tall Tree Town in the Summer Islands. Hell, for all I know Jalabhar Xho will become the king of a shattered, zombie-ridden Westeros by the end of the series, and Dolorous Edd will be riding a dragon to liberate slaves in Qarth while Quaithe begins her training in the House of Black and White.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:37
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Toplowtech posted:Basically the second blackfyre rebellion took place in Whitehall during the wedding of Lord Ambrose Butterwell to the daughter* of Lord Frey. It was just an excuse for the pro-Blackfyre houses to get together and invite the houses angered by Bloodraven's Handship. They also invited Hoster's recently married father since he was their liege and it would be insulting not to do so but Lord Tully didn't come. You can imagine Lord Tully teaching young Hoster that the Freys are traitors and that he should never go to one of their weddings, using the second rebellion as an example of Frey treachery. Jesus, that's complicated. So who fought in the rebellion and why? I barely remember any of this, much less figure out all the details.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:41
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So after the very first early review of the book came out more than a month ago, I unpinned all the Song of Ice and Fire-related things I had on these forums from my control panel, deleted my bookmarks, and swore off conversation on the series until I had read the book for fear of spoilers. And now I've read it. I still somehow ended up getting spoiled on one thing (Jon getting stabbed), but overall I got through the book cleaner than I expected. I thought it was a pretty good offering. Not quite as boring as A Feast For Crows to be sure, but not up to the same standards as the first three books either, somewhere in between. Aegon's a better Targaryen than Dany ever was.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:43
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KillRoy posted:If I were Aegon I'd send Mace Tyrell an offer to make Maergery his queen, have him sack Kings Landing, smash Tommens head against the wall and the capture Cerise so he can choke her to death. Aegon was Rhaneys little brother, and he's descended from Valeria, so he's a good Valonquar candidate.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:46
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JT Jag posted:Aegon's a better Targaryen than Dany ever was. Definitely - We don't see much of him, but Varys is pretty much right about his character. He seems humble, smart, and like he would be a good leader. So basically, he will surely die in the prologue of book 6. Or he's not really Aegon.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:53
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lapse posted:So basically, he will surely die in the prologue of book 6. I actually don't find this an unlikely possibility.
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Jul 26, 2011 00:55
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lapse posted:The "Bloodraven = 3-eyed crow" theory has been around ever since the novella The Sworn Sword. Yes, thank you, I got that part. It's the Blackwood part I was wondering about.
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Jul 26, 2011 01:11
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lapse posted:He seems humble, smart, and like he would be a good leader. I am not prepared to call him smart until his conquest succeeds. Tyrion called the idea a bait, and taking a few castles is very short of winning a war. The Ironborn were able to capture several castles in the North and ended up superfucked for it. It seems like his conquest of Westeros will ride on either Doran Martell or Daenerys beliving he is Aegon Targaryen, which might actually happen, but attacking Storm's End, a castle that has never been taken, now that seems less likely. It seems like the standard fantasy theme would be that the dashing, rightful king of Westeros would be the first person to take the castle by siege. It seems like the standard GRRM theme would be to drop a thousand pounds of "No, you can't," on Aegon and have him die trying to take the untakable castle.
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Jul 26, 2011 01:11
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He upended a game of Cyvasse when Tyrio beat him then made Tyrion pick up the pieces. That doesn't exactly scream humble to me.
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Jul 26, 2011 01:18
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JT Jag posted:Aegon's a better Targaryen than Dany ever was. Was there ever any mention about Aegon not getting burned from fire?
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Jul 26, 2011 01:20
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VaultAggie posted:He upended a game of Cyvasse when Tyrio beat him then made Tyrion pick up the pieces. That doesn't exactly scream humble to me. Yeah, that's what I was thinking. And the whole leading the charge into battle. He sounds more like Joffery than Robb.
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Jul 26, 2011 01:25
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