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Okay, just finished it then. First thing through my mind? This cannot and will not ever be filmed. Been very busy, so been sneaking peaks at the book when I could, so very late to the party, but spoiler tags to be safe.. -Wyman Manderly: Holy poo poo I love this guy. Even though he was a secondary Stark bannerman, he just seemed like one of the more incompetent and stupid ones, I'm happy to have been proved wrong.  -Roose Bolton: My blood has certainly cooled regarding this character since the Red Wedding. Maybe it's because he's just a cold sociopath rather than explicitly trying to gently caress up Robb. Doesn't excuse his crime though. -Jaime: Ditto, but he's becoming much more of a noble character and showing actual humility, than even Crows suggested. -Ramsay Snow: Gosh, the more I read about this character, the more nightmare fuel comes out. This guy's (horrific) death can't come soon enough. -Cersei: One of the most satisfying moments I'd ever read. The bitch had it coming. I especially love how her carefully-laid plans against Margeary just backfired so spectacularly. -Jon:  Oh but he'll live.-Dany: I can't stand her now. Her holier-than-thou poo poo is really wearing thin. And while I understand her being a naive, well-meaning girl, how many countless lives had been ruined because she stuck her head into Slaver's Bay in the first place? She thinks marrying a greedy pig is so horrible? Because it's so hard to marry someone and live in ridiculous luxury than the thousands of slaves who die horribly on both sides because of her. And then goes on a joyride leaving burnt crisps in the rearview (So long, suckers!). Completely thoughtless girl. -Tyrion: Oh poor Tyrion, going to hell and still not truly out of it. -Blooraven:  I thought this was the most fantasy-ish book to date. More supernatural elements than all the others put together. Hard to believe that it started out so simply. Stark vs Lannister. EDIT: Also agree with some of the comments I've just read. It was overall, better than Crows, but the worst part was that GRRM seems to have no self restraint anymore. Her spergy detail of the most insane poo poo in the Essos chapters bulked up what was already a book with a lot going on. It could have been focussed a bit more into a better book. Strand fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jul 28, 2011 |
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Jul 28, 2011 14:14
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Strand posted:Okay, just finished it then. We don't use spoiler tags round these parts  And I totally agree with you that this book had the most fantasy in it. I think from here on out the books (which will never come out) will just ramp up the fantasy. I mean eventually we're going to have all out war with the Others and ice spiders and dragons and fire magic right? Right?!
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Jul 28, 2011 14:34
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Ray_ posted:Holy poo poo, the statues of the Seven look loving fantastic. Where'd you find this at?
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Jul 28, 2011 14:41
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Rhymenoceros posted:
Because she was wrong at least four or five times about other important events.
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Jul 28, 2011 15:41
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MarshallX posted:Where'd you find this at? The beach. Obviously.
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Jul 28, 2011 15:44
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Unkempt posted:That's (maybe) the horn of Joramun, the one that woke giants and (supposedly) will bring down the Wall. Victarion's got a different horn that's supposed to tame dragons (and kills whoever blows it). Oh, I totally forgot about that.  I'd rather Victarion have the horn than loving Dany. Nothing would make me happier than seeing Victarion use the dragons to torch everything.
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Jul 28, 2011 16:38
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MarshallX posted:Where'd you find this at? winter-is-coming.net I think
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Jul 28, 2011 16:43
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Anyone else find it funny that the joke theory of Tyrion being a secret Targ got a new pair of legs this book? Surprised no one's talking about this. Selmy's speech pretty much confirms it in my mind.
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Jul 28, 2011 18:00
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Lord Hydronium posted:I thought he explained it to Ned: that going with Littlefinger's plan of offering a lordship for the hit, it would be a commoner or someone more likely to gently caress up than a professional assassin, and she'd end up more on her guard. I'm really not sure what is so confusing about this. Yes he put the hit out. And who foiled the poisoned wine attempt? Jorah, who was also being paid by Varys to leak information about Dany. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one, and in this case that means that Varys told Jorah to be on the lookout for assassination attempts so he could foil it and gain Dany's trust so as to have access to more valuable information and avoid suspicion that he is betraying her.
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Jul 28, 2011 18:15
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Victarion: Where the hell do all these befuddling perfumed boys come from? gently caress Euron, I'm going to take my dragons and burn that place down, I'm tired of dealing with these smelly dudes all over.
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Jul 28, 2011 18:49
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So have the Victarion/Theon chapters redeemed the Iron Islanders for you lot?
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Jul 28, 2011 18:56
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hand of luke posted:Surprised no one's talking about this. Selmy's speech pretty much confirms it in my mind. No one's talking about it because it's not really a thing. I don't think Selmy's speech says what you think it said.
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Jul 28, 2011 18:56
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You know, I gotta say something. With the exception of the whole Daario aspect (which honestly felt really forced and out-of-character), I like Dany -- as a character. Her plotline this book may have been godawful and dragged it down, but I've never understood why people have always hated her as a character. She is an incredibly strong person, but extremely human. She achieves military dominance of a third of the world, but is entirely believable and vulnerable the whole way, and succeeds basically through sheer force of will -- the dragons are obviously a big part too, but with the exception of Astapor, their effect has been mostly indirect. She goes through all these exotic and/or terrifying locations and situations and adapts herself easily to them, while still remaining basically true to her own roots, culture, and personality -- so she stays relatable to the reader the whole way. She makes a bunch of really lovely decisions once she gets to Slaver's Bay, but that's mostly because she was placed in such an ethically difficult situation: How do you right the injustice of slavery, when the economic and social disruptions of doing so have consequences much worse in the short term? She's also basically the only strong adult female figure in the book who isn't incredibly shortsighted (Cat), greedy and shortsighted (Cersei), or just dull, both in a literal and literary sense (Brienne). Actually, I guess Asha is pretty cool, but she doesn't have as much of a presence. Man, that was a lot of words about a book about midgets and rape. But still, gently caress the haters, Dany is a great character, GRRM's injustice to her in this book notwithstanding.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:09
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:You know, I gotta say something. With the exception of the whole Daario aspect (which honestly felt really forced and out-of-character), I like Dany -- as a character. Her plotline this book may have been godawful and dragged it down, but I've never understood why people have always hated her as a character. Whilst I like Dany, I don't think you can say she isn't short sighted. She passed over Yunkai without loving their poo poo up, and freed a bunch of slaves without thought of what that would mean later on. She had to let the Yunkai bring slaves back into Meereen to perform for her, which is probably the biggest slap in the face she could have received from Yunkai. She had to go back on her word and make concessions based on earlier decisions which is very short sighted.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:17
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furushotakeru posted:I'm really not sure what is so confusing about this. Yes he put the hit out. And who foiled the poisoned wine attempt? Jorah, who was also being paid by Varys to leak information about Dany. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one, and in this case that means that Varys told Jorah to be on the lookout for assassination attempts so he could foil it and gain Dany's trust so as to have access to more valuable information and avoid suspicion that he is betraying her. If that were the case, Jorah would have mentioned it while he was on trial for having served Varys. Dany was pissed because KL was trying to have her killed, Jorah would definitely have said "no, I was actually charged to protect you" or something.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:20
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hand of luke posted:Surprised no one's talking about this. Selmy's speech pretty much confirms it in my mind. I thought Selmy's speech pretty much confirmed that Tyrion isn't a Targ.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:23
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Tyrion as secret Targ is the worst theory. I don't mean in terms of likelihood, I just mean it would be a profoundly stupid "twist" and just come across really cheesy. It would pretty much nullify the whole conflict between him and his father, which is the defining conflict of his entire character, even after Tywin's death.Royality posted:Whilst I like Dany, I don't think you can say she isn't short sighted. She passed over Yunkai without loving their poo poo up, and freed a bunch of slaves without thought of what that would mean later on. Sure, it was a poor decision, but like I said, it's part of the conflict between justice and stability he's been (over-)exploring in Slaver's Bay. In Yunkai, she tries to tiptoe around the massive and probably violent disruptions necessary to really end slavery, then in Astapor, over-compensates and the disruptions destabilize and basically destroy the whole society, then in Meereen tries to take a sort of "middle way" and still mostly fails. I mean I know I'm not saying anything deep or new to anyone, but I wouldn't call what she did "shortsighted," just a mistake made on an extremely delicate decision. Ecco the Dolphin fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jul 28, 2011 |
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Jul 28, 2011 19:27
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The repetitive phrase that jumped out at me was Dany putting on her floppy ears for the rabbits. And all the variations of. Every loving time she held court. Which of course was almost everyone of her slow as poo poo chapters. Also "where do whores go". And Tyrion thinking about killing his father every 15 seconds.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:30
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Man, that was a lot of words about a book about midgets and rape. But still, gently caress the haters, Dany is a great character, GRRM's injustice to her in this book notwithstanding.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:33
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Demon_Corsair posted:The repetitive phrase that jumped out at me was Dany putting on her floppy ears for the rabbits. And all the variations of. "where do whores go": 4 times. "floppy ears": 8 times. "Serjeant": 49 times. I still win 
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Jul 28, 2011 19:40
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This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I get the impression sometimes that people want GRRM to just provide a list of plot points as opposed to writing the next book. I love all the background, the history, the world-building...I don't need to rush to the ultimate climax anytime soon. I'd like the books sooner rather than later, of course, but not everything needs to happen right loving now for the book to be good.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:42
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Add in all the where do whores go variations and I bet its more than that. And all the crossbow/gently caress-you-dad poo poo.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:47
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bigmcgaffney posted:Add in all the where do whores go variations and I bet its more than that. And all the crossbow/gently caress-you-dad poo poo. It was the sound effect that killed me. Thump or whatever it was.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:49
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bigmcgaffney posted:Add in all the where do whores go variations and I bet its more than that. And all the crossbow/gently caress-you-dad poo poo. I think there would be a lot more hits if the search was "where whores go". Since I seem to recall at least a few "Is this where whores go", "Is that where whores go" and so on.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:50
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^^^^^^^^^^^^ 7 for "where whores go." bigmcgaffney posted:Add in all the where do whores go variations and I bet its more than that. And all the crossbow/gently caress-you-dad poo poo. Yeah, I think with the exception of Theon all the internal character conflicts were a lot more hamfisted than they have been, and all the repetition is evidence of that. I feel like there's a much more defined distinction and separation between "character development", "world exploration", and "plot movement" in DwD than in, say GoT or SoS. I've written a lot of negative things in this thread about the book, considering I really liked it. Ah well.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:52
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:I've written a lot of negative things in this thread about the book, considering I really liked it. Ah well. Same. I think it might be easier than talking about good things. I think the Tyrion stuff bothered me because I had forgotten where "where do whores go" even came from. I had to get out SoS and look it up.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:56
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EC posted:This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I get the impression sometimes that people want GRRM to just provide a list of plot points as opposed to writing the next book. I love all the background, the history, the world-building...I don't need to rush to the ultimate climax anytime soon. I'd like the books sooner rather than later, of course, but not everything needs to happen right loving now for the book to be good.
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Jul 28, 2011 19:57
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:You know, I gotta say something. With the exception of the whole Daario aspect (which honestly felt really forced and out-of-character), I like Dany -- as a character. Her plotline this book may have been godawful and dragged it down, but I've never understood why people have always hated her as a character. I pretty much agree, and while I didn't like the Daario element, I also begrudgingly accept it as realistic. A good, realistic (as realistic as fantasy can get) character shouldn't be without some irrationality and vice. It's clear that Dany is struggling with some deep moral problems of leadership, but irrational attraction and the desire to flee one's problems are also human. It's a frustrating part of her character, but sometimes it's good for the reader to be frustrated. At least for me, it adds to the partial deconstruction of fantasy that I've come to appreciate from ASOIAF.
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Jul 28, 2011 20:32
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Did anyone do a count for cheese-monger and all similar? Seemed like he said that a lot...
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Jul 28, 2011 20:38
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This is probably a dumb idea, but is it possible that Varys & Illiryo's end-scheme is a united Free Cities? There's a lot of war in the region they're from, and with the help of an Iron Throne which owes them, they could possibly invade and unite the Free Cities, or cause the Free Cities to unite in order to prevent an invasion. I really feel like Dany isn't going to go to Westeros because why should she care about a place she's never lived? With dragons at her command, she could recreate Valyria - starting with conquering Slaver's Bay. Either way, I have a feeling by the end of the series either the 7 Kingdoms will split apart for certain, or former Valyria will reunite.
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Jul 28, 2011 21:10
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TTBF posted:This is probably a dumb idea, but is it possible that Varys & Illiryo's end-scheme is a united Free Cities? There's a lot of war in the region they're from, and with the help of an Iron Throne which owes them, they could possibly invade and unite the Free Cities, or cause the Free Cities to unite in order to prevent an invasion. I could almost see GRRM doing that. End the series with Westeros overrun by zombies and the Essos united. It would be such a big gently caress you that it is right up his alley.
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Jul 28, 2011 21:33
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furushotakeru posted:"where do whores go": 4 times. That seems a bit off. I feel like it came up at least that many times in Tyrion's first chapter alone. I just ignore serjeant the same way I have always ignored ser. It's loving stupid, but what can you do? Does anyone else just skip the paragraph when ever GURM starts rambling on about food?
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Jul 28, 2011 21:58
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The problem with ~Daario~ isn't that everyone hates reading about a romance, it's that the romance and her being in complete love with him seems unrealistic. There's no build up, and he isn't presented as having any positive qualities other than being ~pretty~ with a ~gold tooth~. She even thinks about how he's a despicable person. I'll quote myself from 4 days pre-release, on page 4 of this thread (yes I still bought it):Ray_ posted:Dany still dumb: I mean, it just doesn't make sense. Blah blah blah teenage girl, but she's way older than her actual age.
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Jul 28, 2011 22:01
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Demon_Corsair posted:Does anyone else just skip the paragraph when ever GURM starts rambling on about food? If you do this, though, you may miss parts where people are eaten.
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Jul 28, 2011 22:06
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By the way, if you search for "whores go" you get 21 results. Those include: "wherever whores go" "where whores go" "where do whores go?" Also, "not wrong" gets 28 results. Variations include, but aren't limited to: "He/she/I was not wrong" "He's not wrong" "you/they are not wrong" "(Person) is/was not wrong" Gotta expand your searches guys! All of those phrases are basically the same and that's why people are puzzled when it's reported there were only 8 instances of a phrase.
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Jul 28, 2011 22:11
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Caufman posted:At least for me, it adds to the partial deconstruction of fantasy that I've come to appreciate from ASOIAF. Strong female characters acting utterly retarded out of love is a time honored tradition of epic fantasy. See Laurana in Dragons of Spring Dawning.
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Jul 28, 2011 22:38
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Caufman posted:If you do this, though, you may miss parts where people are eaten. This is true. I should go reread that chapter.
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Jul 28, 2011 22:46
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Gold teeth are a sign of power and wealth, and blue hair signifies Targaryen heritage. Match made in heaven! ~My Daario~
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Jul 28, 2011 23:00
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:Tyrion as secret Targ is the worst theory. I don't mean in terms of likelihood, I just mean it would be a profoundly stupid "twist" and just come across really cheesy. It would pretty much nullify the whole conflict between him and his father, which is the defining conflict of his entire character, even after Tywin's death.
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Jul 28, 2011 23:18
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Eggnogium posted:Daario and the hostages are all dead right? I thought it was pretty clearly mentioned that there were six hostages left after Hizdahr's nephews or whatever got returned and six catapults went off so... Maybe I'm remembering the numbers wrong. Possibly, but I think it's more likely that they were flinging flux victims over the walls. Also, Barristan's comment about Aerys and Joanna doesn't prove poo poo about Tyrion being a secret Targ. He mentions that Aerys took liberties with Joanna on Tywin's wedding night, and since Tyrion is by far the youngest of the Lannister siblings he couldn't have been conceived by that, unless Aerys hosed her again at a much later point in time.
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Jul 28, 2011 23:28
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