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I think GRRM was really hungry when he wrote this book.
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Jul 29, 2011 07:48
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GRRM hungry!!!!!!!!!!! bwahahahahahahahahaahahahahahha
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Jul 29, 2011 07:50
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Ray_ posted:Holy poo poo, the statues of the Seven look loving fantastic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80LbdCR7-ps Also concerning Manderley's cooking: I can't wait for one of the Lords who ate the pies and pork at Ramsay's wedding to say they will never accept Rikon as lord because he lived with cannibals in Skagos and ate human flesh. I can imagine Manderley's smile already.
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Jul 29, 2011 08:14
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Doibhilin posted:I don't think he's a Targaryen loyalist. I think he honestly wants what is best for Westeros--a good king. And he's realized that Aegon is the perfect opportunity for a good king. He can be molded to rule, to understand his people--like Merlin and King Arthur. It's not about prolonging the Targaryen dynasty, it's about the opportunity Aegon presents. That doesn't really make sense as if he was truly in it for the good of the kingdom he could easily have backed someone that would have been a good king. Like Renly, or Robb or something. gently caress all the serious claimants to the throne, Mance Rayder was the king the world needed.
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Jul 29, 2011 08:23
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Doibhilin posted:I don't think he's a Targaryen loyalist. I think he honestly wants what is best for Westeros--a good king. And he's realized that Aegon is the perfect opportunity for a good king. He can be molded to rule, to understand his people--like Merlin and King Arthur. It's not about prolonging the Targaryen dynasty, it's about the opportunity Aegon presents. How does aiding the invasion of 40 000 Mongol-esque barbarians who understand no currency but rape and pillage fit into this vision of a peaceful Westeros? Dany's planned return always seemed a little irresponsible to me, too, since she is barren (though, to be fair, Varys could not know that), which plants the seeds for another civil war.
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Jul 29, 2011 08:52
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Eggnogium posted:Count me among those who don't believe Tyr is a Targ. I think the Joanna-Aerys reveal works fine as a partial explanation for the falling out between Tywin and Aerys, and I struggle to believe that if Tywin knew Tyrion wasn't his (which most people who buy the theory seem to think) he wouldn't have banished Tyrion the second Robert planted his fat rear end on the iron throne. Well, playing devils advocate, that wouldn involve admitting to the whole having been given horns thing. I don't think Tywins pride was up for that sort of thing.
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Jul 29, 2011 09:10
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Neurosis posted:How does aiding the invasion of 40 000 Mongol-esque barbarians who understand no currency but rape and pillage fit into this vision of a peaceful Westeros? Doesn't the end of ADWD prove she isn't barren?
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Jul 29, 2011 09:26
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Not really. It proves there's blood coming out of her. Doesn't necessarily imply anything one way or the other.
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Jul 29, 2011 09:34
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Also, to her knowledge, she would have been forever barren after AGoT. However, her gigantic sense of entitlement carried her forward. Edit: Actually, speaking of cuckolding, I've often wondered how Stannis sleeping with Melisandre matches up with his iron sense of morals (which, as a morally inflexible man of absolute judgment, I love  ).
Neurosis fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 10:20
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Eggnogium posted:Count me among those who don't believe Tyr is a Targ. I think the Joanna-Aerys reveal works fine as a partial explanation for the falling out between Tywin and Aerys, and I struggle to believe that if Tywin knew Tyrion wasn't his (which most people who buy the theory seem to think) he wouldn't have banished Tyrion the second Robert planted his fat rear end on the iron throne. By all accounts Tywin passionately loved Joanna. "Promise me, promise me Eggnogium posted:If all the X is a Targ theories are true, the last chapter of the series is gonna be a big ole Targaryen family reunion potluck at the water gardens. Dani's bringing lemon cakes! Ya, this, but then there's a massacre and Tyrion winds up on the throne. Rosscifer fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 10:22
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One of the things that annoys me in this series is that the common people are just treated as an amorphous blob who just sit around waiting to be killed (or raped and killed if they're female), with no particular initiative or agency of their own. I like the Brotherhood without Banners, but with revenge-crazed Zombie Catelyn leading them who knows what direction GRRM will take.
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Jul 29, 2011 10:43
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This has been mentioned a couple of times in the last couple of pages; the common people are far too poorly educated to take hold of the country's future. I would not trust a nation's future to people who can't read. They also have little power to enforce their majority rule. It takes a long time to transform into a real democracy. A lot of nations on our planet still struggle with it, and I doubt Westeros would be any better.
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Jul 29, 2011 12:11
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Seams posted:One of the things that annoys me in this series is that the common people are just treated as an amorphous blob who just sit around waiting to be killed (or raped and killed if they're female), with no particular initiative or agency of their own. I like the Brotherhood without Banners, but with revenge-crazed Zombie Catelyn leading them who knows what direction GRRM will take. That's however a pretty major point GRRM wants to make (and he does it quite well I think). The dialogue between Brienne and the Septon in AFFC is probably the best summary of the argument he tries to make. The whole resurgence of the armed faith/Sparrows is pretty much the only reaction that is left to the commoners. The church accepts them regardless of wealth and class, the church defends them no matter if they own property or are beggars, Tully, Stark or Lannister serfs and bannermen. Decius fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 12:22
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Decius posted:That's however a pretty major point GRRM wants to make (and he does it quite well I think). The dialogue between Brienne and the Septon in AFFC is probably the best summary of the argument he tries to make. The whole resurgence of the armed faith/Sparrows is pretty much the only reaction that is left to the commoners. The church accepts them regardless of wealth and class, the church defends them no matter if they own property or are beggars, Tully, Stark or Lannister serfs and bannermen. I really should re-read AFFC, it's been years and I don't remember that conversation at all. 
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Jul 29, 2011 12:42
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Seams posted:I really should re-read AFFC, it's been years and I don't remember that conversation at all. For your convenience: (the discussion is about brigands and outlaws and how dangerous they are) quote:"Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous. Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They've heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.
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Jul 29, 2011 12:52
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Doibhilin posted:I don't think he's a Targaryen loyalist. I think he honestly wants what is best for Westeros--a good king. And he's realized that Aegon is the perfect opportunity for a good king. He can be molded to rule, to understand his people--like Merlin and King Arthur. It's not about prolonging the Targaryen dynasty, it's about the opportunity Aegon presents. Dude outright says Aegon has been molded to rule from day one. Meaning he, Varys, has overseen Aegon's education from the start. Dany and Vis were intentionally set up as targets for Westeros to keep everyone from looking deeper and discovering Aegon still lived. They weren't educated and taught to rule, they were ignorant and selfish as gently caress. Iggles posted:This just doesn't ring true. Why then kill Kevan who was, by Varys's own admission, going to fix the Seven Kingdoms and ensure Tommen becomes a good king? Because the Lannisters are all completely unfit to rule in some way? Again, Varys outright says Aegon was trained from the start to be a king, taught it was a responsibility and not a right he was born into (like Tommen). This series is about how a horrible threat presents humanity with possible eradication and everyone's too caught up in their bullshit machinations to face it.
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Jul 29, 2011 13:01
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Maytag posted:Dude outright says Aegon has been molded to rule from day one. Meaning he, Varys, has overseen Aegon's education from the start. Dany and Vis were intentionally set up as targets for Westeros to keep everyone from looking deeper and discovering Aegon still lived. They weren't educated and taught to rule, they were ignorant and selfish as gently caress. but isnt dany kinda learning how to rule right now? on the job training. I guess she just got lucky with the dragon eggs and her figuring out she is fireproof. also it seems to me like anytime Dany is trouble that drogon can sense that and comes to her aid?
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Jul 29, 2011 13:37
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Ray_ posted:You know, people say this all the time, but Tyrion isn't much like Tywin at all. He's always joking and sarcastic, he's got a pretty big heart, and actually seems to have a working moral compass. Tywin is none of those things, and I'd say those are Tyrion's most important features. They're both really smart guys with a gift for navigating and manipulating politics, but that's pretty much it as far as similarities. I thought the basic idea is that Tyrion would've been pretty mucgh just like his father if he hadn't been born a dwarf, but his deformaity is what makes Tywin reject him (obviously) and leads to Tyrion being a different and better person than his father. he clearly has the mind to succeed Tywin, and no doubt if he was a full-man Tywin would've marked him as his 'truest' son, but instead Tyrion is forced to hide behind humor and experience the world from a perspective that gives him (some) empathy with the weak and downtrodden.
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Jul 29, 2011 13:40
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Decius posted:For your convenience: Thanks. That's a pretty good passage, I wish there had been more stuff of that quality in ADWD.
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Jul 29, 2011 13:48
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Iggles posted:This just doesn't ring true. Why then kill Kevan who was, by Varys's own admission, going to fix the Seven Kingdoms and ensure Tommen becomes a good king? This. I don't think that Varys cares for anything beyond whatever his sense of justice for the Targaryens are. I also don't think he really intended for Viserys to succeed outside of Essos, given the Dothraki fear of water.
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Jul 29, 2011 13:58
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Maytag posted:This series is about how a horrible threat presents humanity with possible eradication and everyone's too caught up in their bullshit machinations to face it. I'm convinced Varys knows of the threat and believes that only a Targ on the Iron Throne can defeat the others, just like STAR WARS  VVVVV E: having never read the bad threads, what's your theory?
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Jul 29, 2011 14:19
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Varys' motives run deeper than who's gonna hold the Iron Throne, and deeper than even Ilyrio knows. I said that earlier in the thread and I'm sticking by it. Quotin' the hell out of this post 6 years from now.
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Jul 29, 2011 14:20
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500 pages in and the slow pace of the story is starting to drive me nuts.
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Jul 29, 2011 17:18
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So is this book worth reading or what
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Jul 29, 2011 17:21
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Levitate posted:So is this book worth reading or what It is one of the weaker books of the series but it is still better than 99% of all fantasy books. Of course that is like saying it is one of the duller golden shits in a certain pile of golden shits but it is still more golden than 99% of all shits in the world.
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Jul 29, 2011 17:37
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Decius posted:That's however a pretty major point GRRM wants to make (and he does it quite well I think). The dialogue between Brienne and the Septon in AFFC is probably the best summary of the argument he tries to make. The whole resurgence of the armed faith/Sparrows is pretty much the only reaction that is left to the commoners. The church accepts them regardless of wealth and class, the church defends them no matter if they own property or are beggars, Tully, Stark or Lannister serfs and bannermen. See also: how much of the world runs on slaves and slavery and the slave trade.
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Jul 29, 2011 17:42
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Levitate posted:So is this book worth reading or what It's worth it if you really like the setting and don't mind a slower paced reading, like AFFC it's a book that's setting up a lot of the crazy poo poo that will happen in the next books, introducing a few more characters and giving some more established ones a bigger piece of the lamprey pie.
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Jul 29, 2011 17:44
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I'm sorry but I this has been on my mind for two days and I have no one to say it to. Barristan the Bold more like Barristan the bOLD... Yep.
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Jul 29, 2011 18:15
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Rhymenoceros posted:I'm sorry but I this has been on my mind for two days and I have no one to say it to. Dany..more like FANY! Hah!
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Jul 29, 2011 18:19
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Rhymenoceros posted:I'm sorry but I this has been on my mind for two days and I have no one to say it to. Barristan is old, what do you expect, he first jousted at the age of ten, killed maelys the monstrous at 17, served with the greatest knights of the realm in the kingsguard during robert's rebellion, lead the kingsguard, travelled half the world to serve his true queen and now serves as the queen's hand in a city ravaged by war, slavery, plague and treason. I think he's entitled to be old. He's still one hell of a knight and a person, and he can stick to his ideals without getting himself killed, so he's doing better than Ned Stark at least 
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Jul 29, 2011 18:21
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Barristan was my favourite character in the book, and I especially liked him dicking it to the pit fighter guard (whose name I forget) like the inexperienced-against-armour poo poo he was. GO BARRISTAN.
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Jul 29, 2011 18:29
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Royality posted:Barristan was my favourite character in the book, and I especially liked him dicking it to the pit fighter guard (whose name I forget) like the inexperienced-against-armour poo poo he was. GAH IT'S NOT FAIR THAT YOU'RE WEARING ARMOR! TAKE IT OFF SO I CAN KILL YOU!
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Jul 29, 2011 18:32
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furushotakeru posted:GAH IT'S NOT FAIR THAT YOU'RE WEARING ARMOR! TAKE IT OFF SO I CAN KILL YOU! He called Barristan a coward and Barristan replied that this coward was about to kill him 
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Jul 29, 2011 18:44
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Neurosis posted:Edit: Actually, speaking of cuckolding, I've often wondered how Stannis sleeping with Melisandre matches up with his iron sense of morals (which, as a morally inflexible man of absolute judgment, I love Like Newt Gingrich, he loves his country SOOO much, that he cheats on his wife. Is Stannis really died in the snow like a bitch I'm going to be very disappointed. Not because he died, but because the whole adventure seems to out of character. He's presented as one of the best commanders in land, and he's going to rush through terrible weather at the end of the season to assault a castle he has no hope of taking against an army that could likely defeat him in the field (even if they didn't have the castle!)? Also, he leaves the sorceress who is the source of all of his recent victories behind? If it was Rob or Jon being this reckless, I guess I could understand but, if ever there was someone we should be able to expect rational behavior from it is Stannis. I love the new and improved Victarion and also, he has the best sorcerer. R'hllor's other people are all wishy washy, but this guy gets straight to the point! If these guys get some dragons, that would be some fireworks! A question about the Grayjoy story though; I thought they were setting Euron up to be a player, but it seems like in 'Dance' that he's about to get put down. Is there some part of his plan that I'm missing? 1) declare war on everyone 2) send my brother for dragons 3) hope he gets back before I'm dead (and doesn't use the dragons on me)
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Jul 29, 2011 18:57
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Keep in mind that there's the "dusky woman" he gave Victarion as a gift. She attacks Moqorro, and probably for good reason- without Moqorro it's likely that Victarion would have blown the horn, died, and the dragons would then have been under Euron's power if Moqorro's guess about how it works is correct. Now, well, he still has an agent on the scene and a couple of warlocks for damage control. Of course, it's quite possible that Moqorro's guess is wrong, and you have to be able to live through blowing the horn to use it.
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Jul 29, 2011 19:32
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Effectronica posted:Of course, it's quite possible that Moqorro's guess is wrong, and you have to be able to live through blowing the horn to use it. I think it is interesting that so far Moqorro has actually been right about everything. He seems a lot more confident than the other red priests. I suspect he's still going to screw Victarion over, but I think it will be a lie of omission rather than 'misreading the flames' or whatever.
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Jul 29, 2011 19:41
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Acinonyx posted:I think it is interesting that so far Moqorro has actually been right about everything. He seems a lot more confident than the other red priests.
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Jul 29, 2011 20:12
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Acinonyx posted:I think it is interesting that so far Moqorro has actually been right about everything. He seems a lot more confident than the other red priests. I suspect he's still going to screw Victarion over, but I think it will be a lie of omission rather than 'misreading the flames' or whatever. The only thing that Melisandre seems to have actually lied about is the leech-burning sequence, or for that matter "king's blood" in general. It's easy, with what we've got from her POV, to figure that she saw the Red Wedding, Joffrey choking, or Balon Greyjoy getting killed by a Faceless Man in the flames, but unlikely that she really believed that she brought those things about with Stannis' blood in a leech. Everything else is understandable as a consequence of her unwavering belief in Stannis and essentially human nature, rather than a direct lie. I think that Moqorro is planning to betray Vic as soon as he gets direct contact with Dany, which means that he'll be in for a surprise when the Iron Fleet breaks the blockade around Meereen. I wonder whether Jorah, Tyrion, or Moqorro is the danger that Quaithe told Dany was coming from the "perfumed seneschal".
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Jul 29, 2011 20:25
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Contra Calculus posted:It is one of the weaker books of the series but it is still better than 99% of all fantasy books. Of course that is like saying it is one of the duller golden shits in a certain pile of golden shits but it is still more golden than 99% of all shits in the world. Are you making GBS threads me it took him 6 years to write another AFfC what the gently caress
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Jul 29, 2011 20:28
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It is better than AFfC.
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Jul 29, 2011 20:32
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