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Remember that Fantasy is a really, really bad genre, such that those who are really good at it get skimmed off into literature and kept far away from the taint of that label.
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Jul 31, 2011 05:26
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99.9% of fantasy isn't even good enough to wipe your rear end with.
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Jul 31, 2011 05:30
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Iggles posted:Stop me if this sounds patronising but you know that women don't have periods whilst pregnant right? hailthefish posted:Are you sure? Intentionally being patronizing every now and then a woman will experience menstruation but actually be pregnant. And your final authority Wikipedia page says "normally" not "always."
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Jul 31, 2011 05:35
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AngusPodgorny posted:I think any competently written and edited novel should never disappoint. If there's a section that makes the reader think "god, this is tedious and pointless, when will the author move on," then it should be fixed, and if it's not, I feel entitled to complain about it. He is. Even when he missteps he trounces his peers.
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Jul 31, 2011 06:13
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Maytag posted:Intentionally being patronizing every now and then a woman will experience menstruation but actually be pregnant. And your final authority Wikipedia page says "normally" not "always." Yes, because it's far more likely that she happens to be menstruating during pregnancy than, you know, just regular menstruating. 
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Jul 31, 2011 06:31
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AngusPodgorny posted:I think any competently written and edited novel should never disappoint. If there's a section that makes the reader think "god, this is tedious and pointless, when will the author move on," then it should be fixed, and if it's not, I feel entitled to complain about it. Being the best writer in Fantasy is kind of like winning the Special Olympics. I mean, there are a handful of decent Fantasy writers out there, but I don't think anybody expects even them to churn out the next great American novel. Martin's worldbuilding is amazing, and his worst is still miles above the worst of stuff in Wheel of Time and other epic fantasy series, but he still leaves a lot to complain about. Especially when he gives his fans so long to do so. What is great about this series though is the re-read potential. So many huge hints are dropped in side conversations and observations. The first time you read thrhough you miss 90% of what is going on. I can't think of any other Sci Fi or Fantasy authors that could pull that off. Thoguh fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jul 31, 2011 |
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Jul 31, 2011 06:37
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I've had this thought reading the last couple of pages. If Aerys' liberties with Joanna during her and Tywin's bedding was copulation, the result wouldn't have been Tyrion but it could have resulted in Jaime and Cersei. I present the following flimsy evidence for this theory; -Targs have lots of twins and twincest, -Jaime and Cersei are light haired (I'm not sure if all Targs MUST be platinum blond), and -Cersei is batshit insane much like Aerys. If this is the case, then Tommen is the actual heir  I'm also confused with Melisandre's motivations at the Wall. I thought Jon and Sam smuggled Mance's kid out so she wouldn't have the "blood of two kings" or whatever, but by NOT burning Mance and letting him roam around on her errands she clearly doesn't want to kill him yet. AFAIK she doesn't know that Monster is actually Gilly's kid, so what made her change her mind? Poldarn fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jul 31, 2011 |
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Jul 31, 2011 06:39
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showbiz_liz posted:That's what I thought too. Am I totally misremembering, or did Jamie say something about Brienne's neck being covered up, like by a scarf or something? I figured it was to hide the hideous rope marks... No it's much more likely that the ghost of catelyn stark had a change of heart. Poldarn posted:I'm also confused with Melisandre's motivations at the Wall. I thought Jon and Sam smuggled Mance's kid out so she wouldn't have the "blood of two kings" or whatever, but by NOT burning Mance and letting him roam around on her errands she clearly doesn't want to kill him yet. AFAIK she doesn't know that Monster is actually Gilly's kid, so what made her change her mind? She knew Mance was alive but Jon didn't.
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Jul 31, 2011 06:54
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hailthefish posted:Yes, because it's far more likely that she happens to be menstruating during pregnancy than, you know, just regular menstruating. I forget who, but someone in the IRC channel argued that it might have been a miscarriage instead of a period.
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Jul 31, 2011 07:15
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That's also a decent possibility since (thankfully) Gurm didn't tell us enough about her menstrual cycles and general physical wellbeing to hazard more than a guess. If she wasn't having a period before, it probably means she's started having one again. If she was having one before, it's either normal cycle time in which case why bother writing about it, or a miscarriage/ectopic pregnancy/some other horrible blood-coming-from-vag condition.
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Jul 31, 2011 07:36
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Hold up, is there any evidence that Dany really is barren aside from Mrri Maz Dur's words?
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Jul 31, 2011 08:30
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Okay, just finished this. Enjoyed it more than AFFC at least. Didn't see Jon Snow getting killed coming, although in retrospect I should have. He was following the same "honor first" kind of policy his father was, and look how that turned out. I saw something earlier in the thread that confused me though, did Hodor die? Because I don't remember that at all. Also, here's to hoping the prologue of the next book is zombie Ser Gregor smashing Aegon's head against a wall. THOUGHT YOU COULD FOOL ME, DID YOU? I FINISH WHAT I START
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Jul 31, 2011 08:34
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I really doubt zombie Gregor retains much of his previous life. Especially if his head is missing.
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Jul 31, 2011 09:25
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PeterWeller posted:.. but I don't want to get into a big derail about it.
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Jul 31, 2011 09:53
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For half a second I thought that was a new acronym for the series and I got really confused.
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Jul 31, 2011 09:56
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xamphear posted:Audiobooks aren't books for people who don't like to read. It aggravates me and my posting shows this. Sorry, it's my own personal bias and I admit that. quote:I'm genuinely sorry that you don't like them, but your generalizations are off-base, and you DID turn into a caricature. I highlighted your inconsistency in my quote. Again, I respectfully disagree. I have a point-of-view, and I think I make my case. I see no inconsistency. If I'm a caricature, it's not the dumb hipster that someone else posted before about "reading, maaannn." My POV is valid and should not be reduced to that idiocy. You either read a book or you don't. Don't be sorry (genuinely or otherwise), I love to read; and when I do it, I buy the print and I lose myself in it. It's a joy and I wouldn't have it any other way. Opinions differ. That's to be expected. I do apologize for the derail, because my original point was that I don't think people who skim and skip whole chapters should consider themselves informed to judge the work as a whole. That was the point of my original post. The comment about audiobooks obviously struck a nerve and people posted objections and asked me direct questions which I attempted to answer. I will not post another word on the subject. Please carry on with all the reasons why GRRM is an absolute fucker who writes 1,000 pages of nothing and the Dany/Jon/Tyrion/Quentin/who-the-gently caress-ever chapters were pointless and didn't advance the plot and boo-loving-hoo this series sucks and I won't read another word (except I will) and nipples on a breastplate words are wind Brienne chapters suck, blah blah.
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Jul 31, 2011 10:55
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Poldarn posted:I've had this thought reading the last couple of pages. If Aerys' liberties with Joanna during her and Tywin's bedding was copulation, the result wouldn't have been Tyrion but it could have resulted in Jaime and Cersei. I present the following flimsy evidence for this theory; It would reaffirm Tyrion's tragic relationship with his farther, making him is only true son. And Cersei being so insane and Jaime so sane and reasonable would reaffirm the two-sidedness of the brilliant/crazy Targaryens. And yes the Lannisters being the legitimate kings all along would be truly hilarious. If you want really far-fetched it's possible they aren't twins but Cersei and Jaime were both conceived by different men. Tywin/Aerys on the wedding night. Rosscifer fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Jul 31, 2011 |
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Jul 31, 2011 11:09
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Did the latest book reveal who killed Jofferey? I have no interest in reading any further but am wondering if the long winded author finally got around to tying up that dangling thread.
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Jul 31, 2011 11:27
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The Rat posted:Also, here's to hoping the prologue of the next book is zombie Ser Gregor smashing Aegon's head against a wall. THOUGHT YOU COULD FOOL ME, DID YOU? I FINISH WHAT I START
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Jul 31, 2011 11:28
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Amethyst posted:Did the latest book reveal who killed Jofferey? I have no interest in reading any further but am wondering if the long winded author finally got around to tying up that dangling thread. No one is this stupid, but your troll is appreciated.
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Jul 31, 2011 11:33
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Amethyst posted:Did the latest book reveal who killed Jofferey? I have no interest in reading any further but am wondering if the long winded author finally got around to tying up that dangling thread. That thread was tied up in Storm of Swords. After Littlefinger whisks Sansa away he has her guess who it was that actually put the poison in Joffrey's cup and it's revealed that Littlefinger planned it out with Laddy Olanna, Margarey's grandmother. She goes to give Sansa a hug, plucks one of the gems from her hairnet out, and uses that to poison Joff's wine.
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Jul 31, 2011 11:33
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Amethyst posted:Did the latest book reveal who killed Jofferey? I have no interest in reading any further but am wondering if the long winded author finally got around to tying up that dangling thread. Sounds like someone didn't actually read the past four books.
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Jul 31, 2011 11:36
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Azure_Horizon posted:Sounds like someone didn't actually read the past four books. Correct, I stopped after book 3 because I realized GRRM was pulling a Robert Jordan and adding a bunch of boring poo poo to the original story to stretch it out. Briefly skimming this thread, it seems the plot has barely moved since the third book. I read storm of swords like 6 years ago, but I seem to remember some hints that someone else may have been behind the death of Joffery besides the obvious suspects but I guess not. EDIT: Has the threat from the north materialized yet? That was foreshadowed literally on the first page of the first book and didn't make much progress in the first three novels. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 11:49 on Jul 31, 2011 |
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Jul 31, 2011 11:44
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Dr. Faustus posted:Not ALWAYS, they aren't. Sadly (to me) I know real people in my own sphere who can't be bothered to crack a book open, but they'll download the audiobook and be read to. I think it's sad and lazy and that's because (in my opinion) it is a disservice to the work and to the person who should be reading it. The majority of people who have spoken about skipping did so because they wanted to skip Dany's chapters because they are boring, awfully written trash. Also, while Martin is clearly the second coming of Joyce for the fantasy genre, criticizing him for repeating his selfmade phrases is perfectly valid. Authors have writing styles and sometimes, just sometimes, they have bad habits that make for lovely writing. Dean "Talking Dog" Koontz, Stephen "Magical Retard" King, and George "Dramatic Cliffhanger" Martin all deserve to be called out on their flaws.
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Jul 31, 2011 11:51
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Unoriginal Name posted:The majority of people who have spoken about skipping did so because they wanted to skip Dany's chapters because they are boring, awfully written trash.
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Jul 31, 2011 12:13
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Thoguh posted:What is great about this series though is the re-read potential. So many huge hints are dropped in side conversations and observations. The first time you read thrhough you miss 90% of what is going on. I can't think of any other Sci Fi or Fantasy authors that could pull that off.
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Jul 31, 2011 12:18
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I finally got around to finishing ADWD. Here are my thoughts: Overall I quite liked it. The pacing was overly slow in parts*, and there was some stylistic repetition beyond the usual nuncles and makes-no-mattering** but there was a lot of richness added to the world and a few good "holy poo poo!" moments - the two biggest being Jon killing Slynt, and Jon's apparent death. He'll probably come back though - there's an interesting theory going around that at the time of Jon's death, the circumstances fulfilled the prophecy of Azor Ahai come again, and failing that, he might be able to warg into Ghost like the prologue guy. I enjoyed finally finding out what was going on with the 3 eyed crow, and Bran's new-found role. Theon's story was pretty hard to read at times due to how hosed-up it was. Alys Karstark is my favourite new minor character. Dany really needs to get a move on and invade Westeros. At least she's finally doing something with the dragons. I didn't mind the Meerenese stuff too much, but I wouldn't mind the focus coming back to Westeros again either. Victarion is a dumb thug who only seems non-evil in comparison to the likes of Ramsay. I was only a little surprised when Quentyn died - he didn't really seem worthy of being one of the three heads of the dragon. This is less of a problem than in AFFC, but there are too drat many lords, houses, etc, to keep track of who's allied with/married to/blood-enemies-of who. Repetitive quirks aside, the writing is better than ever. *There seems to be an issue where everyone has to come together at the right time, so every plot has to be slowed down to match the pace of the slowest-moving one, lest things get out of sync. There's also the issue of the series currently being like 8 loosely related stories running in parallel. **In particular, GRRM somewhat overuses a chapter structure that goes like this: We rejoin a character sometime after their last chapter. The character wanders around ruminating over their current predicament and getting into arguments. In the course of this, they almost incidentally reveal how the previous cliffhanger was resolved. Then right at the end of the chapter they stumble into the next cliffhanger. edit: By the way, this thread on Westeros is good for checking out any implied stuff you might have missed (especially useful for the always-tricky prophecies). ShardPhoenix fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Jul 31, 2011 |
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Jul 31, 2011 12:33
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quote:There seems to be an issue where everyone has to come together at the right time, so every plot has to be slowed down to match the pace of the slowest-moving one, lest things get out of sync. There's also the issue of the series currently being like 8 loosely related stories running in parallel. Soap opera syndrome.
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Jul 31, 2011 12:42
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Unoriginal Name posted:The majority of people who have spoken about skipping did so because they wanted to skip Dany's chapters because they are boring, awfully written trash. Awfully written? I might not like this chapter or that, but at least I respect the time and thought and effort that goes into creating those chapters. I have read too much Koontz out of boredom and I admit I want that time back. I can honestly say that I regret reading his awful books. I love King's books overall and he's a very stylistic guy who has had and abandoned some very idiosyncratic devices like putting character's thoughts in italics or repeating stuff for effect; or putting retarded characters in his stories. King is weird because he's so prolific, I can't in honesty compare him to Martin. King is a loving genius of his genre and I enjoy his works, warts and all. Me, I was put off by the way so many Tyrion chapters ended with him looking dead or doomed. I read the EW interviews and he's admitted that he ended too many chapter with cliffhangers. They were still good chapters, though. Yeah, I rolled my eyes. "O yeah, THIS TIME Tyrion is dead. Yeah, right." Those are valid criticisms and well deserved. As for establishing his own voice, I think for the most part we see it as his attempt at world-building and to harp on it is a matter of opinion. My own opinion is that it's stupid to dwell on it. He's a drat good author, as evidenced by the huge threads of discussion he inspires all over the internet. Criticism is fair, but I for one disagree with the easy cherry-pickers who just go for the low-hanging-fruit while at the same time being silent about the truly transcendent awesomeness he writes. My opinion is that it's bitching for the sake of bitching. I give no credence to the claims that "nothing happens" or "the plot doesn't advance" and I argue against the claims that "I skip this character's POV chapters because they're "stupid and go nowhere." In my opinion, that's a stupid stance to advocate, and not worthy. You read a book, or you do not. I am NOT saying that GRRM makes no mistakes or that his prose is perfect and unassailable. I just disagree with a lot of the poo poo he's given. Okay? [edit] I apologize, because I have definite opinions and SA is the only place I actually express them. You are all welcome to disagree. It's the same reason I don't talk Trek at the Trek.bbs. I want to speak my piece without engaging with the crazy Trek/Star Wars/Fantasy fanatics. I just want to be heard even if my voice is somewhat dissenting. I'm not that nutty or invested in some fantasy universe; but I do have definite, coherent thoughts that I hope aren't obsessive. If I've crossed that line, please disregard. Dr. Faustus fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Jul 31, 2011 |
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Jul 31, 2011 13:06
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hailthefish posted:Yes, because it's far more likely that she happens to be menstruating during pregnancy than, you know, just regular menstruating. I didn't say that Dany was pregnant just that you're a smug gently caress posting links to Wikipedia and still misreading them. Cryle posted:No it's much more likely that the ghost of catelyn stark had a change of heart. What was the word she shouted just as she was hanged? If it was "JAAAAAAAAAAIME" I'm done with this series. I don't really see Cat having a change of heart about anything at this point, so I'm betting on Zombie Brienne.
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Jul 31, 2011 15:02
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It was probably 'sword' and she accepted ZombieCat's demands.
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Jul 31, 2011 15:07
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Dr. Faustus posted:He's a drat good author, as evidenced by the huge threads of discussion he inspires all over the internet. Twilight inspires discussion. Doesn't mean it's good.
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Jul 31, 2011 15:35
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Unoriginal Name posted:Twilight inspires discussion. Doesn't mean it's good. The guy is probably the best fantasy writer writing today or in the past 20 years. Yes, it's like being the shiniest turd, but it's something.
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Jul 31, 2011 15:40
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Poldarn posted:I've had this thought reading the last couple of pages. If Aerys' liberties with Joanna during her and Tywin's bedding was copulation, the result wouldn't have been Tyrion but it could have resulted in Jaime and Cersei. I present the following flimsy evidence for this theory; Remember also that Joanna was like a second cousin to Tywin, so that would explain why Jaime and Cercei would have blond hair independent of who the father is.
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Jul 31, 2011 15:44
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:The guy is probably the best fantasy writer writing today or in the past 20 years. Yes, it's like being the shiniest turd, but it's something. He really isn't though. Instead of being praised for his subversion of the genre, he should be criticized for falling into the same traps that plague every other fantasy series since the 1990s.
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Jul 31, 2011 16:02
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:The guy is probably the best fantasy writer writing today or in the past 20 years. Yes, it's like being the shiniest turd, but it's something. Maybe 15 years, because until his death in 1995, Roger Zelazny was a LOT better.
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Jul 31, 2011 16:37
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Maytag posted:I didn't say that Dany was pregnant just that you're a smug gently caress posting links to Wikipedia and still misreading them. At what point did I say it was impossible? I just said that "her vag is bleeding, she must be pregnant!" is pretty much the only thing that's NOT reasonable to assume. Sure it's POSSIBLE, a lot of things are possible, but makes no sense in the context of the book or the situation. Would you like some more, ~legitimate~ sources to explain how wrong this is, because Wikipedia isn't ~good enough~ to explain why this is dumb?
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Jul 31, 2011 17:00
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Poldarn posted:I've had this thought reading the last couple of pages. If Aerys' liberties with Joanna during her and Tywin's bedding was copulation, the result wouldn't have been Tyrion but it could have resulted in Jaime and Cersei. I present the following flimsy evidence for this theory; While this idea is paper thin (and probably not credible), the fact that Aerys 'took liberties' on the wedding night would seem to rule out Tyrion being a secret Targ since Cersei and Jaime are the eldest children. That's basically it. Tyrion can't be a secret Targ because he was born after Cersei and Jaime.
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Jul 31, 2011 17:49
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i am not so sure posted:Maybe 15 years, because until his death in 1995, Roger Zelazny was a LOT better. Zelazny definitely wrote better, technically speaking, but GRRM is better in other areas.
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Jul 31, 2011 17:51
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Alekanderu posted:Zelazny definitely wrote better, technically speaking, but GRRM is better in other areas. The only area I can possibly think of is world-building, but Zelazny really didn't give a poo poo about that. His style lent to a more abstract, in-the-moment story with amazing characters and creativity.
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Jul 31, 2011 17:53
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