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Yeah, to counter my own argument about Bran going transhuman, and becoming super distant/detached from the fate of his friends, he could just as easily go the other way. When Bloodraven was seated in his weirwood throne, he was at least into middle age, full of knowledge, wisdom, and the ability to form long term goals. Bran is a young child who wants nothing more than to climb again, and be free in the world. Giving him the power of greenseeing might just mean he uses to take over Hodor, or some other person permanently so that he can be with his friends again.
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Aug 2, 2011 17:03
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What if Bran gains the ability to control the White Walkers?
Argali fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Aug 2, 2011 |
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Aug 2, 2011 17:06
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Argali posted:What if Brain gains the ability to control the White Walkers? That much is already implied with Coldhands and Bloodraven. Which leads to an interesting theory: what if the coming long winter is a plot of Bloodraven to provide motivation for Westeros to reunite as a single political entity in the face of a common threat?
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Aug 2, 2011 17:08
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Something I didn't find entirely clear: while warging into Hodor, Bran only makes him say "hodor" as usual so as not to reveal himself. But could he actually talk through Hodor's body if he wanted?
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Aug 2, 2011 17:31
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My guess would be yes. Hodor has the ability to say more than just one word physically, just not mentally.
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Aug 2, 2011 17:39
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Ithink the warg is somewhat at the mercy of the host creatures brain with it's built in limitations and instincts. He might be putting on a show so he doesn't freak out his freinds but he might also be using the body's abilities to the fullest. His power might increase with time to allow him to speak through host one day. He might even get his wolf to say " I rove roo" with enough practice.
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Aug 2, 2011 17:40
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Maarak posted:That much is already implied with Coldhands and Bloodraven. Which leads to an interesting theory: what if the coming long winter is a plot of Bloodraven to provide motivation for Westeros to reunite as a single political entity in the face of a common threat? Which threat?
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Aug 2, 2011 17:43
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Argali posted:Which threat? The Others/Whitewalkers/Wights. Being a political creature already, with his weirwood and raven warging, he might have predicted the short reign of Robert Baratheon, and engineered an existential threat to the realm to try and force cooperation, and long term stability. How wise a move that is is highly debatable, but based on his characterization in the Dunk and Egg stories, I could see him trying that. edit. Granted, we known even less about what motivates the Others than we do the Children of the Forest, so take my ramblings as the bullshit speculation they are. Maarak fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Aug 2, 2011 |
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Aug 2, 2011 17:53
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The Children of the Forest allied with the First Men to fight against the Others the last time they showed up, so somehow I doubt they or their ally Bloodraven are too buddy-buddy with their old nemesis. That's what makes me think the Others don't necessarily serve the Great Other/Darkness or whatever, if Bloodraven represents darkness somehow. Also since there were First Men and Children fighting against the Others, is it possible that Azor Ahai was a Children of the Forest and not a human? Not that it would matter.
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Aug 2, 2011 17:58
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Maybe the Others just want to be friends 
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Aug 2, 2011 18:03
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On the verge of finishing the book. I really want to read more Bran chapters, I really like his ability to see through the trees at times past. I think that might ultimately reveal some cool stuff otherwise lost to history. I refuse to believe that Jon is dead. I really wanted him and Dany to get together and be Ice/Fire. I know a lot of theories would place him as Dany's nephew, but the Targs have never cared before, so... Maybe Jon comes back as a Wight but with more control than most? I was thinking the three heads of the dragon would end up being Dany, Jon and Aegon since they'd be the three remaining Targs (assuming Jon is a Targ) but now I'm not so sure. I haven't read this thread yet, so I'm sorry if this has been covered in stupid depth, but I avoided spoilers like the grey mare so I have some catching up to do now.
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Aug 2, 2011 18:05
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HeroOfTheRevolution posted:The Children of the Forest allied with the First Men to fight against the Others the last time they showed up, so somehow I doubt they or their ally Bloodraven are too buddy-buddy with their old nemesis. That's what makes me think the Others don't necessarily serve the Great Other/Darkness or whatever, if Bloodraven represents darkness somehow. We really only have thousand year old myths to base that on though. Also, the Children's pact with the First Men is long since broken, and their lands dominated by humans. What's to stop them from making a pact with the Others against the humans to take back their lands?
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Aug 2, 2011 18:06
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Maarak posted:We really only have thousand year old myths to base that on though. Also, the Children's pact with the First Men is long since broken, and their lands dominated by humans. What's to stop them from making a pact with the Others against the humans to take back their lands? Oh poo poo, that would be completely awesome.
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Aug 2, 2011 18:14
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Maarak posted:We really only have thousand year old myths to base that on though. Also, the Children's pact with the First Men is long since broken, and their lands dominated by humans. What's to stop them from making a pact with the Others against the humans to take back their lands? I doubt that. Leaf said they had been around for a "thousand thousand" years and as of late there were too few of them. Also their time was close to an end.
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Aug 2, 2011 18:18
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geeves posted:I doubt that. Leaf said they had been around for a "thousand thousand" years and as of late there were too few of them. Also their time was close to an end. What makes Leaf so trustworthy though? Of all the fantasy tropes that GRRM choose to subvert, why would he leave his elves as paragons of good, ready to aid the humans no matter what? Dwindling numbers, and being forced to dwell in the far north only make it seem more likely they've allied with the Others.
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Aug 2, 2011 18:24
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Jakabite posted:I thought he was the guy who seduced Edmure's lover or some poo poo like that. It still seemed like something of an overreaction on Edmure's part though, he seemed to be really really horrified about the whole thing. Anyone have a more conclusive answer? quote:Tom once ran afoul of Edmure Tully when he stole a girl that Edmure was supposed to bed to take his virginity. Edmure had drank too much and was unable to perform. Tom then made a song about a floppy fish, which led to Edmure's hatred of music
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Aug 2, 2011 18:27
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Maarak posted:What makes Leaf so trustworthy though? Of all the fantasy tropes that GRRM choose to subvert, why would he leave his elves as paragons of good, ready to aid the humans no matter what? Dwindling numbers, and being forced to dwell in the far north only make it seem more likely they've allied with the Others. He already subverted the elf trope by making them weird cat/deer people instead of super-beautiful and slightly androgynous humans with pointy ears. Aside from that, I get the impression that the Others aren't some group you can ally with. Perhaps they believe they can manipulate the Others in some way, but they seem wiser than that.
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Aug 2, 2011 19:08
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Maarak posted:What makes Leaf so trustworthy though? Of all the fantasy tropes that GRRM choose to subvert, why would he leave his elves as paragons of good, ready to aid the humans no matter what? Dwindling numbers, and being forced to dwell in the far north only make it seem more likely they've allied with the Others. Well, if you're right, that be a lot of wasted, decent exposition.
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Aug 2, 2011 19:21
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It's not like they've had a great relationship with the Men. They might just want to purge them and take their chances with the way things used to be. The Children's Obsidian weapons and magic seem to make them more able to fight Others than Men.
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Aug 2, 2011 20:26
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Does anyone else think Dany might not even go to Westeros? She's never even really been there, and the only reason she even thinks about the throne is because people keep telling her that it's her right. She hasn't really shown that much interest herself, which is obvious by how loving stupid she is regarding Meereen and all that....she doesn't want to leave. These people are her children, what is Westeros to her when it comes down to it? Either that, or, going by the lady in the mask prophecy thing that says something like to go west you must go east, under the shadow blah blah she'll end up going to Asshai and get to Westeros by circumnavigating the globe rather than going across the Narrow Sea
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Aug 2, 2011 20:54
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For a start there really is a hell of a better chance of her being accepted as a ruler of Westeros than anywhere else on the planet. ^^She could land at Pyke or Bear Island, think "The hell with this" and go back to Qarth
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Aug 2, 2011 21:22
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Jorah's already informed her of how lovely Bear Island is.
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Aug 2, 2011 21:29
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Maarak posted:What makes Leaf so trustworthy though? Of all the fantasy tropes that GRRM choose to subvert, why would he leave his elves as paragons of good, ready to aid the humans no matter what? Dwindling numbers, and being forced to dwell in the far north only make it seem more likely they've allied with the Others. There is a lot of ground to cover before you get from 'paragons of good' to 'allying with evil'. Yeah I read books. posted:Does anyone else think Dany might not even go to Westeros? She's never even really been there, and the only reason she even thinks about the throne is because people keep telling her that it's her right. She hasn't really shown that much interest herself, which is obvious by how loving stupid she is regarding Meereen and all that....she doesn't want to leave. These people are her children, what is Westeros to her when it comes down to it? I don't see the promise of a war for the Iron Throne getting her there. Helping her long lost nephew she thought was dead might, and liberating a nation from evil undead weak-to-dragons walky things just might do the trick too. Or, if Victarion by some miracle actually makes off with her dragons, that'd do it too. hampig fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Aug 2, 2011 |
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Aug 2, 2011 22:20
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I would like to see perhaps Dany learning a harsh lesson from being a conqueror to maybe rethinking what Aegon the Conquerer did with the original takeover of Westeros. Maybe her legacy will be to allow independence for all the various regions of the world and stop forcing them under one mega-regime. One thing we've learned from all the books so far is that various regions are night and day (or fire and ice) different. What commonality is there between say Victarion and Tommen? Between Bran and Oberyn? The only thing they have in common is that their forefathers bent the knee.
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Aug 2, 2011 22:36
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hampig posted:There is a lot of ground to cover before you get from 'paragons of good' to 'allying with evil'. I'm merely trying to think of, "What Would GRRM Do?", and going from there. Blind trust in seemingly good characters is not something that has gone well for anyone so far, why should Bran be the exception?
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Aug 2, 2011 22:54
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TTBF posted:Jorah's already informed her of how lovely Bear Island is. Bear Island doesn't sound lovely, it just sounds rustic. Jorah's obviously quite fond of it.
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Aug 2, 2011 23:06
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Maarak posted:I'm merely trying to think of, "What Would GRRM Do?", and going from there. Blind trust in seemingly good characters is not something that has gone well for anyone so far, why should Bran be the exception? Right. It would be a completely and totally GRRM thing if the Children attempted to manipulate Bran into controlling the Others/Wrights/Whatever and loving over the humans. I could see Jon (ice) joining Bran (ice) now that he's dead and taking on Dany (fire), who unites Westeros behind her. 
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Aug 2, 2011 23:06
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We all know Coldhands is Benjen, right? I'm interested to see what Dany does when she finally hears about the Others. My children my babies! Also I still think she and Viserys were raised as ignorant targets to keep Westeros from finding Aegon.
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Aug 2, 2011 23:07
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Maytag posted:We all know Coldhands is Benjen, right? I'd say Coldhands is just a random Crow turned wight that's being warged by Bloodraven.
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Aug 2, 2011 23:09
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PT6A posted:Bear Island doesn't sound lovely, it just sounds rustic. Jorah's obviously quite fond of it. Bear Island is only lovely if you married a gold-digger. quote:I'd say Coldhands is just a random Crow turned wight that's being warged by Bloodraven. Yeah, I thought at first that Coldhands is Benjen, but now I think he's just some dead Crow.
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Aug 2, 2011 23:16
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Altamir posted:My guess would be yes. Hodor has the ability to say more than just one word physically, just not mentally. That would make for an amazing Waiting For Godot-type scene. Now I'm going to be disappointed if Hodor doesn't recite Lucky's monologue.
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Aug 2, 2011 23:27
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roop posted:Maybe her legacy will be to allow independence for all the various regions of the world and stop forcing them under one mega-regime. How would having seven+ kingdoms be better? Now you've got a perpetual reason for war instead of the potential for a once-a-generation war. Trade would be more fractured. Nobles would still be trying to reconquer all of Westeros. There'd be rebellions to separate from or overthrow the current ruling families of the seven kingdoms. It'd be a complete mess. Maybe it'd be better in the long run, but there's a reason the kingdoms didn't rebel as soon as the last dragon died.
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Aug 2, 2011 23:30
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So why don't you think he's Benjen anymore?
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Aug 2, 2011 23:43
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I thought the Greenseer and Faceless Men reveals were really cool and not disappointing, which is odd because usually when you get explanations for something cool and mysterious, it ruins it.
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Aug 3, 2011 00:00
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Maytag posted:So why don't you think he's Benjen anymore? Bran spends a lot of time with him and doesn't even consider that it might be his uncle. There aren't any hints that he might be Benjen aside from that he's a dead Crow, and Benjen is maybe also a dead Crow.
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Aug 3, 2011 00:25
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Doesn't the dude wear a hooded cloak and is dead? I guess it would be kinda cheesy if it was Benjen though.
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Aug 3, 2011 00:26
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The only thing really giving credence to that theory is the fact that GRRM keeps listing Benjen as missing in the character list, not dead. It's always "presumed dead" or " Missing beyond the wall". Speaking of character list, the character list for "On Slavers Bay" is a loving eyesore. Just a bunch of random names with "z" making half the names.
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Aug 3, 2011 00:30
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I also got the impression that Coldhands has been roaming around for a lot longer than Benjen has been missing.
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Aug 3, 2011 00:37
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Maytag posted:Doesn't the dude wear a hooded cloak and is dead? I guess it would be kinda cheesy if it was Benjen though. Bran doesn't even ponder the possibility that it might be Benjen. GRRM had a lot of opportunities to provide evidence he was Benjen and didn't. I take that as pretty good evidence that he isn't Benjen. quote:I also got the impression that Coldhands has been roaming around for a lot longer than Benjen has been missing. Yeah, this too. It's implied that Coldhands is pretty drat old.
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Aug 3, 2011 00:38
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Again, why do we think Coldhands is an individual instead of, say, a wight Bloodraven warged into?
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Aug 3, 2011 00:48
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