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vtlock
Feb 7, 2003

smackfu posted:

Is there some fundamental conflict between "Save As..." and versioning and auto-saving?

If a file is "saved as," it essentially creates a new fork of the file, which is an entirely other path to manage in terms of autosave. "Duplicate" seems like a more appropriate name for the process.

That said, if you really want to create a copy of a file, wouldn't it be easier to do that via Finder?

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Accipiter
Jan 24, 2004

SINATRA.

echobucket posted:

There's no digging through a revision tree, you hit "Duplicate" and then save the file with a new name.

That wasn't the question.

And the fundamental change between Duplicate and Save As is that there's another step to accomplish the same task.

rckstar79 posted:

That said, if you really want to create a copy of a file, wouldn't it be easier to do that via Finder?

And interrupt workflow to exit the active application where you're doing the editing just to make a copy, instead of just using Save As...?

Look people, this is a fundamental change in how user content is managed. You may like the new system and think it's cool beans, but accept the fact that for many people it adds steps to existing processes and introduces headaches.

Accipiter fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Aug 3, 2011

vtlock
Feb 7, 2003

amf5 posted:

In Preview's case, with the new version, try this: open a file (any file) and try to convert it to a different format. Just try it. While you're doing that, keep in mind that in the old version, you could do this by just using "save as".

I feel like we're rehashing the same stuff, but doesn't export work just fine for this? And really, if you're changing formats, isn't export a better name for the process than "save as"?

Beeftweeter
Jun 28, 2005

a medium-format picture of beeftweeter staring silently at the camera, a quizzical expression on his face

rckstar79 posted:

That said, if you really want to create a copy of a file, wouldn't it be easier to do that via Finder?

With the new version of TextEdit, probably. But that's the problem: why the gently caress should that be the easier way of saving a different copy of a text document, particularly if it's already open?

rckstar79 posted:

I feel like we're rehashing the same stuff, but doesn't export work just fine for this? And really, if you're changing formats, isn't export a better name for the process than "save as"?

No. Try it.

Accipiter
Jan 24, 2004

SINATRA.

rckstar79 posted:

I feel like we're rehashing the same stuff, but doesn't export work just fine for this? And really, if you're changing formats, isn't export a better name for the process than "save as"?

For gently caress's sake, I don't know how many times I need to demonstrate that not all applications have the Export function. And Export is not a replacement for Save As because sometimes you want to keep the current format.



GOD.

vtlock
Feb 7, 2003

Accipiter posted:

For gently caress's sake, I don't know how many times I need to demonstrate that not all applications support Export.

You're right. But he was speaking specifically of Preview, which is an app that should logically support Export (because of the many interchangeable image formats). I'm not sure why TextEdit, for example, should support Export.

Likewise, while third party apps aren't free, they might fill some of these gaps/ease this transition. BBEdit supports both "Save As" and the autosave feature. In fact, BBEdit also has an appropriately named "Save a Copy..." option.

natlampe
Jul 10, 2001

Accipiter posted:

For gently caress's sake, I don't know how many times I need to demonstrate that not all applications have the Export function. And Export is not a replacement for Save As because sometimes you want to keep the current format.



GOD.
That's a great screenshot of an application he didn't talk about. He was specifically commenting on something in Preview, where the Export option keeps the current format just fine.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

I only just realized while setting up my new machine that Fraise is dead. :cry:

You can still find it on MacUpdate and such but it won't be updated for Lion.

Accipiter
Jan 24, 2004

SINATRA.

rckstar79 posted:

You're right. But he was speaking specifically of Preview, which is an app that should logically support Export (because of the many interchangeable image formats). I'm not sure why TextEdit, for example, should support Export.

Because there are many different types of text files, not all of them plain text?

rckstar79 posted:

Likewise, while third party apps aren't free, they might fill some of these gaps/ease this transition. BBEdit supports both "Save As" and the autosave feature. In fact, BBEdit also has an appropriately named "Save a Copy..." option.

Save a Copy is essentially the same as "Duplicate" (just without the autosave functionality), so I suspect you'll see "Save a Copy" in BBEdit eventually get replaced with Duplicate to maintain consistency with the new way of things in Lion.

natlampe
Jul 10, 2001

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

I only just realized while setting up my new machine that Fraise is dead. :cry:
What does this have over Smultron? The missing price tag basically? It seems like the $5 Smultron 4 does Lion.

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 
I realized just how many text editors I had installed in 10.6, and how I nearly always opened up TextEdit out of sheer habit anyway :q:

BlueFreshMarlboro
Jun 3, 2011

by T. Finn

amf5 posted:

I don't like it, it doesn't add any appreciable new functionality, and it's implemented terribly. It's only "the new way of doing things" for two applications. The "feature" is the one who sucks, why should I change the way I've been doing things for like 20 years?

You must have forgotten how absolutely terrible the Mac OS was 20 years ago... (up until OS X, there was really no difference in quality between the Mac OS and Windows Millenium)

They say that when people age they tend to only remember the good things and they forget the bad things.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

natlampe posted:

What does this have over Smultron? The missing price tag basically? It seems like the $5 Smultron 4 does Lion.
At the time of its fork from Smultron a year ago, several additions. But now that it's dead I suppose it doesn't really matter. Supposedly the developer is working on a new text editor that isn't based on Smultron.

smackfu
Jun 7, 2004

Accipiter posted:

Because there are many different types of text files, not all of them plain text?
Yeah, Textedit is more like a low end word processor than a text editor. It supports 8 different output formats, including Word docs.

Nall
Jun 26, 2000
I'm learning that some people feel very strongly about 'save as' being removed. I am sorry for your losses. You may need to: Change your workflow, stay with Snow Leopard, switch to Windows, use a different editing app, wait for other 'save as' fans to create a 'save as' hack for Lion.

Scamander
Apr 11, 2007
I want to change this
Thanks to everyone who replied to my posts, and particular thanks to Shin-chan, whose advice I followed and it worked like a charm.


Edit: Also, in case anyone else has the same problems as me, I have followed advice from here http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=892725
which seems to be working for me as a solution to my other issues.

Scamander fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Aug 3, 2011

beefnoodle
Aug 7, 2004

IGNORE ME! I'M JUST AN OLD WET RAG

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

I only just realized while setting up my new machine that Fraise is dead. :cry:

You can still find it on MacUpdate and such but it won't be updated for Lion.

Does it need to be? I've been using it on Lion on my new MBA without issue.

TACD
Oct 27, 2000

amf5 posted:

No. Try it.
Preview has an 'export' option and it works just fine for this :confused: I just did this right now.

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

TACD posted:

Preview has an 'export' option and it works just fine for this :confused: I just did this right now.

Yeah, it seems to be the exception to the rule, like I was saying yesterday. Even Pages won't let you Export to the same file format. :iiam:

Beeftweeter
Jun 28, 2005

a medium-format picture of beeftweeter staring silently at the camera, a quizzical expression on his face

TACD posted:

Preview has an 'export' option and it works just fine for this :confused: I just did this right now.

I meant "no, try it" as in "no, try it and you'll see that export is not a functional equivalent of save as". Yeah, if you're just switching output formats it works similarly, but if you make a change and want to save it as something else in its original format it won't let you. Also, I don't know if this is a bug or if it's intentional, but if you're using export and change directories, then change output formats, you're put back into the original directory. It's a pain in the rear end and seems like an attempt to fix something that wasn't broken at all.

e:

Nall posted:

I'm learning that some people feel very strongly about 'save as' being removed. I am sorry for your losses. You may need to: Change your workflow, stay with Snow Leopard, switch to Windows, use a different editing app, wait for other 'save as' fans to create a 'save as' hack for Lion.

Lion itself is fine, most of the retarded UI changes they've introduced can be turned off, and the old versions are literally the same functionality-wise but without poo poo thats loving KDE-level stupid and work as drop-in replacements. But really, keep on getting mad that people use things differently than you :qq:

Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Aug 4, 2011

topheryan
Jul 29, 2004
So I'm trying to do a clean Lion install from USB and I just have the "Installing" background and the active progress bar but it's full in an alternating blue-white color. There's no time remaining and the bar isn't filling up (since it is already "full"). Is this normal?

Neurophonic
May 2, 2009

amf5 posted:

I meant "no, try it" as in "no, try it and you'll see that export is not a functional equivalent of save as". Yeah, if you're just switching output formats it works similarly, but if you make a change and want to save it as something else in its original format it won't let you. Also, I don't know if this is a bug or if it's intentional, but if you're using export and change directories, then change output formats, you're put back into the original directory. It's a pain in the rear end and seems like an attempt to fix something that wasn't broken at all.

Except that for the vast majority of people the whole concept of saving files is slightly too abstract to make sense. Have you seriously never had to help a family member or friend locate a file they'd saved in some random temporary or non-document related folder, or deleted the wrong version of a file accidentally yourself?

Yes it's different, and yes it will take getting used to, but it makes sense from an outsider perspective. In a few years only the spergiest people will still be pissed off about this, the rest will have adapted to getting on with their work rather than worrying whether or not they've saved recently, and correctly.

But by all means carry on with the OH NO MY PARADIGMS chat.

carry on then
Jul 10, 2010

by VideoGames

(and can't post for 10 years!)

I've actually come to like the new system; it's great for guaranteeing the document is saved, and I've become quite attached to just closing documents when I'm finished with them. I can't wait for everything to adopt the system.

Canned Sunshine
Nov 20, 2005

CAUTION: POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION



Neurophonic posted:

Yes it's different, and yes it will take getting used to, but it makes sense from an outsider perspective. In a few years only the spergiest people will still be pissed off about this, the rest will have adapted to getting on with their work rather than worrying whether or not they've saved recently, and correctly.

I don't get why you can't simply accept that A LOT of people dislike this change. You do realize that it's... ok... to criticize something Apple has done, right? Saint Steve won't strike you down where you sit for doing so.

As it is, there was literally no reason for Apple to completely remove it. They could easily have left it in as a feature for those who wanted it. It was a ridiculous decision.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe

SourKraut posted:

As it is, there was literally no reason for Apple to completely remove it. They could easily have left it in as a feature for those who wanted it. It was a ridiculous decision.

If you want people to switch then the best way is to just take away the old option, like pulling off a band-aid. Leaving the old way in won't help people transition; they will just ignore the new behavior and go to greater and greater lengths to force their crusty old workflow into the new system.

Dick Trauma
Nov 30, 2007

God damn it, you've got to be kind.

BlueFreshMarlboro posted:

You must have forgotten how absolutely terrible the Mac OS was 20 years ago... (up until OS X, there was really no difference in quality between the Mac OS and Windows Millenium)

This is a strange statement that makes no sense to me. I wouldn't even know where to start to respond to it properly.

Canned Sunshine
Nov 20, 2005

CAUTION: POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION



withak posted:

If you want people to switch then the best way is to just take away the old option, like pulling off a band-aid. Leaving the old way in won't help people transition; they will just ignore the new behavior and go to greater and greater lengths to force their crusty old workflow into the new system.

There are relatively easy ways to deal with that though. For example, it can be a feature that isn't listed by default (hence, for most users, you're essentially "forcing" them to switch to the new method anyway), but then, say, in Preferences for example, it could be selected as a feature to be listed in the menu. That way, people who want to use it can enable it, and those who don't know or care about it, don't have to see it.

Nall
Jun 26, 2000

amf5 posted:

Lion itself is fine, most of the retarded UI changes they've introduced can be turned off, and the old versions are literally the same functionality-wise but without poo poo thats loving KDE-level stupid and work as drop-in replacements. But really, keep on getting mad that people use things differently than you :qq:

I think you might be the one who's getting mad. You seem to be raging at the void that things have been changed on you or that you need to do extra clicks or whatever. It really sounds like you are angry that some of us aren't having as much issue adjusting as you are, and I think you should get over it.

E:

amf5 posted:

keep on arguing about it, please

OK now you're just arguing with yourself about how hard done by you are. Keep raging man, everyone who says anything to you is enraged about your apple hate etc etc.

Nall fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Aug 4, 2011

Beeftweeter
Jun 28, 2005

a medium-format picture of beeftweeter staring silently at the camera, a quizzical expression on his face

withak posted:

If you want people to switch then the best way is to just take away the old option, like pulling off a band-aid. Leaving the old way in won't help people transition; they will just ignore the new behavior and go to greater and greater lengths to force their crusty old workflow into the new system.

I wouldn't have minded a change in the way saving works if it actually made things easier and less complex, but as it is the "new system" is actually more complicated and requires more steps to do simple, menial tasks like saving something with a different file name. I've been using 10.7 for way longer than most people (since the first DP) and I did try to adapt to the new behavior, but it's bad. It's really, really bad. It was so bad, in fact, that I felt compelled to figure out how to undo it. It wasn't that I just don't like it, but it actually made simple tasks much more difficult.

Neurophonic posted:

Except that for the vast majority of people the whole concept of saving files is slightly too abstract to make sense.

Really? How did the billions of people with computers ever save their work before OS X 10.7 Lion came along and showed everyone the One True Way to save a file (and it must be that file. It has to be, the Lion commands it)?

There was nothing wrong with the way saving worked, and the fact that Lion's document revision thing still works with the old versions proves it. There was no reason to change this.

e:

Nall posted:

I think you might be the one who's getting mad. You seem to be raging at the void that things have been changed on you or that you need to do extra clicks or whatever. It really sounds like you are angry that some of us aren't having as much issue adjusting as you are, and I think you should get over it.

All I did was post a link to a script that restores the old versions of two programs. I would have been happy to leave it there, but you guys felt so strongly about how awesome the new saving feature is that you had to tell me how stupid it is to want to use an old version of something. So, I tried explaining my rationale behind this several times, but keep on arguing about it, please :ughh:

Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Aug 4, 2011

Neurophonic
May 2, 2009

SourKraut posted:

I don't get why you can't simply accept that A LOT of people dislike this change. You do realize that it's... ok... to criticize something Apple has done, right? Saint Steve won't strike you down where you sit for doing so.

As it is, there was literally no reason for Apple to completely remove it. They could easily have left it in as a feature for those who wanted it. It was a ridiculous decision.

I don't get why you can't simply accept that at this point, Apple are happy to do what they drat well please to make their platform work to their ideals.

It's just different to what you've come to accept and expect. It's not even like it's a new idea, BBEdit implemented this by themselves a long time ago and it was almost universally praised, and even god drat Windows has had something similar called Shadow Copy in place for several versions previous.

Put bluntly, I can accept that people don't like it. That's called an opinion. Stating that it's fundamentally wrong and crying about something that is actively preventing you losing data is stupid. Have you even tried using the previous versions interface?

some kinda jackal
Feb 25, 2003

 
 

MEET ME BY DUCKS posted:

So I'm trying to do a clean Lion install from USB and I just have the "Installing" background and the active progress bar but it's full in an alternating blue-white color. There's no time remaining and the bar isn't filling up (since it is already "full"). Is this normal?

This was a while ago, but if you're still having trouble you should open up Window -> Installer Log (or something like that), set it to "All Logs" instead of "Errors Only" (again, or something like that, I don't have it handy), and it'll tell you more or less what the Installer is up to. If it's getting caught on something it might give you a hint about where.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

Why has Apple done nothing new with the Dashboard (other than changing how to access it) since it was added in Tiger? It seems even more noticeable now that it's shown as a dedicated Space in Mission Control. I suppose they added Web Clip, but do they expect people to fill Dashboard with Web Clips? I haven't found a good use for it and still find myself using the same couple of widgets that I've had for years. Hell the Weather widget is still broken after how many years and likes to shift down on its own every time it loads.

Does anyone have any good Web Clip ideas to share?

Star War Sex Parrot fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Aug 4, 2011

Canned Sunshine
Nov 20, 2005

CAUTION: POST QUALITY UNDER CONSTRUCTION



Neurophonic posted:

I don't get why you can't simply accept that at this point, Apple are happy to do what they drat well please to make their platform work to their ideals.

Accept =/= agreeing with, you know? I can accept that, given it is Apple's OS, they are free to make whatever changes they wish. What I can't accept, is you or others getting upset that some individuals don't like the change, or that they want to voice this displeasure about it. Learn to accept others views without criticizing them, and we'll be good.

quote:

It's just different to what you've come to accept and expect. It's not even like it's a new idea, BBEdit implemented this by themselves a long time ago and it was almost universally praised, and even god drat Windows has had something similar called Shadow Copy in place for several versions previous.

Yeah, but in Windows' case at least, they didn't eliminate an option to do so. "Save as..." is around just as it always was. No one is saying "Man, I wish Apple hadn't introduced new options for saving". People are saying "Wow, why did Apple have to eliminate an option when introducing another?". Windows did it right. Apple did it wrong. You can disagree with that all you want, but your isn't necessarily the right view.

quote:

Put bluntly, I can accept that people don't like it. That's called an opinion. Stating that it's fundamentally wrong and crying about something that is actively preventing you losing data is stupid. Have you even tried using the previous versions interface?
I never said it was "fundamentally wrong" to do so. Maybe someone else did, but I didn't. I said it was a bad decision to eliminate it. That is my opinion. My view that it is a bad decision doesn't mean I think Apple was wrong to do so because, well, it's their OS! Oh, and no, you haven't been able to accept that people don't like it, since you're telling people to "suck it up". That's not accepting their distaste over it. Thanks.

frumpsnake
Jan 30, 2001

The sad part is, he wasn't always evil.
Has anyone seen a problem with Time Machine in Lion where it continually backs up a shitload of data despite no actual changes taking place? I don't recall it ever happening on Snow Leopard.

I think it could possibly be related to my SSD+HDD Optibay setup. Based on the size, it looks like it's continually re-backing up everything on the HDD, much of which is symlinked to my user profile on the SSD.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

frumpsnake posted:

Has anyone seen a problem with Time Machine in Lion where it continually backs up a shitload of data despite no actual changes taking place? I don't recall it ever happening on Snow Leopard.
I've been waiting to flip Time Machine on until I got my machines set up the way I want, but I'll probably get around to it tonight and let you know if I see any similar issues.

Nall
Jun 26, 2000
Dashboard widgets should be combined with Launchpad and the dedicated dash should just be abandoned. I'd love to see this on the iPad as well, really.

Doc Faustus
Sep 6, 2005

Philippe is such an angry eater

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

Does anyone have any good Web Clip ideas to share?

Pandora will run as a Web Clip, if you're not already using the paid App.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

Doc Faustus posted:

Pandora will run as a Web Clip, if you're not already using the paid App.
Yeah I already have Pandora One. :(

That's a good suggestion though.

Star War Sex Parrot fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Aug 4, 2011

Beeftweeter
Jun 28, 2005

a medium-format picture of beeftweeter staring silently at the camera, a quizzical expression on his face

frumpsnake posted:

Has anyone seen a problem with Time Machine in Lion where it continually backs up a shitload of data despite no actual changes taking place? I don't recall it ever happening on Snow Leopard.

I think it could possibly be related to my SSD+HDD Optibay setup. Based on the size, it looks like it's continually re-backing up everything on the HDD, much of which is symlinked to my user profile on the SSD.

It's actually been much better about this for me than Snow Leopard was. Have you looked at the backup image to see if everything is being duplicated?

If it is, you can set it to exclude certain individual items with tmutil.

e:

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

Why has Apple done nothing new with the Dashboard (other than changing how to access it) since it was added in Tiger? It seems even more noticeable now that it's shown as a dedicated Space in Mission Control. I suppose they added Web Clip, but do they expect people to fill Dashboard with Web Clips? I haven't found a good use for it and still find myself using the same couple of widgets that I've had for years. Hell the Weather widget is still broken after how many years and likes to shift down on its own every time it loads.

Does anyone have any good Web Clip ideas to share?

Have you tried doing this poo poo with Automator? Gruber posted this a while back.

Beeftweeter fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Aug 4, 2011

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coldplay chiptunes
Sep 17, 2010

by Lowtax
Is there any way to disable the "feature" of mouse acceleration when you quickly move your mouse over a small distance it automatically jumps all the way to the edge of the screen? I'm fairly certain that I've got my acceleration levels the same as they were on SL, but I'm noticing a ton of problems with this now on Lion. It seem like any time I even touch the mouse after leaving it sit for a while that I'm jumped all the way the the edge of the screen (which is annoying on 27"). Is this new? Do I just have my acceleration set too high but can't tell? Am I insane?

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