|
bobkatt013 posted:Fingerpoke was beginning of 1999 The hilarious limo incident was the end of 1999. After he was tazared he feuded with Scott Hall and then beat Kevin Nash then left due to a movie. He was not in the title race again until Sting made an open challange Didn't remember timeline and was just going off the way Nash told it. He may have been saying that without Goldberg for so long it didn't matter what he did as booker.
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 05:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 08:45 |
|
|
Moose Bigelow posted:Didn't remember timeline and was just going off the way Nash told it. He may have been saying that without Goldberg for so long it didn't matter what he did as booker. He was only out for 2 months in 1999. Nash is full of poo poo as usual
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 05:24
|
|
|
Moose Bigelow posted:Didn't remember timeline and was just going off the way Nash told it. He may have been saying that without Goldberg for so long it didn't matter what he did as booker. The roundtable made it sound like the poke was part of the plan to create an actual story for Goldberg once they broke the streak, and that the limo thing hosed that all up, regardless of the time in between.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 05:25
|
|
|
It's a bit revisionist perhaps, but the problems started way, way, WAY before that. I've been watching through old Nitros, and as early as August of 1996, it's obvious there's going to be a problem. When they introduce the NWO in June, everyone's terrified, they get them over huge. But by August, the NWO isn't returning the favor. The NWO is cool, they play by their own rules, they aren't afraid of anyone, they're in complete control, and the WCW are the biggest bunch of dorks on the planet. Even when someone from WCW cuts a scathing promo, the NWO do that mocking ooooh finger movement, so they're not even putting the faces over. So it's already apparent that the NWO is all that matters and the WCW are putzes, even two months into the angle, well before the constant screwjobs, the dillution of the NWO, and the utter disaster of Starrcade 97. So yeah, I gotta say that their momentum and ratings wins are nice and all, but there were problems with this right from the word go.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 05:25
|
|
|
MC Fruit Stripe posted:It's a bit revisionist perhaps, but the problems started way, way, WAY before that. I've been watching through old Nitros, and as early as August of 1996, it's obvious there's going to be a problem. When they introduce the NWO in June, everyone's terrified, they get them over huge. But by August, the NWO isn't returning the favor. The NWO is cool, they play by their own rules, they aren't afraid of anyone, they're in complete control, and the WCW are the biggest bunch of dorks on the planet. Even when someone from WCW cuts a scathing promo, the NWO do that mocking ooooh finger movement, so they're not even putting the faces over. So it's already apparent that the NWO is all that matters and the WCW are putzes, even two months into the angle, well before the constant screwjobs, the dillution of the NWO, and the utter disaster of Starrcade 97. Well them being so dominant was one of the reason it worked and why Sting needed to win a decisive victory at Starrcade. Starrcade should have been their high water mark After that it should of had the WCW start to beat back NWO and eventully beat them once and for all. Instead we got NWO Black and White, Wolfpac, LWO, BWO, and then the fingerpoke.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 05:28
|
|
|
Moose Bigelow posted:Having re-read this book in the wake of the nWo roundtable I think it unfairly blames Nash for a great deal. The finger poke actually had a story to it but Goldberg wound up out for 9 months when he smashed the limo window with his arm. You shouldn't believe anything Kevin Nash says, he is mostly full of poo poo and sometimes just doesn't remember a loving thing. He's a funny guy but not exactly truthful.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 05:47
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:Well them being so dominant was one of the reason it worked and why Sting needed to win a decisive victory at Starrcade. Starrcade should have been their high water mark After that it should of had the WCW start to beat back NWO and eventully beat them once and for all. Instead we got NWO Black and White, Wolfpac, LWO, BWO, and then the fingerpoke. Exactly, the logical result was Sting winning the title over Hogan at Starrcade 97 and leading the charge against nWo with a red-hot Goldberg in the front-lines. This didn't happen and the Fingerpoke was the beginning of the end because everyone realized the nWo was never, ever going away and it was going to be the same old dog and pony show. Everyone accuses the Fingerpoke as everyone getting smart to the Hogan/Nash creative control situation. I think the bigger problem was all the casual fans going "loving nWo AGAIN?! gently caress this, what's RAW doing next week?".
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 06:29
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0055 posted:Exactly, the logical result was Sting winning the title over Hogan at Starrcade 97 and leading the charge against nWo with a red-hot Goldberg in the front-lines. This didn't happen and the Fingerpoke was the beginning of the end because everyone realized the nWo was never, ever going away and it was going to be the same old dog and pony show. Also the night of the fingerpoke on the other channel some mid carder won the title and that wil put butts in seats
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 06:32
|
|
|
Pretty much the only thing that went exactly right was getting DDP over as the main face challenging the nWo. Especially the fact that Savage put him over clean in their feud which is quite extraordinary in itself.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 12:53
|
|
|
ChampRamp posted:Even if the audience is 100% wrestling nerds, why do business exposing stuff, then act like everything else is real? here's the way I think of it: Everybody apart from very little kids and very gullible people knows that wrestling is scripted. Consequently, everyone knows that what they are being presented with at a wrestling show is a fiction that they are being asked to believe for a little while. So, we have an arena or a TV audience of people who are suspending their disbelief. They've shrugged their shoulders and they're going along with it. A comedy match or a whacky gimmick plays with this suspension by asking you to suspend your disbelief a little more. You are already accepting that when you whip someone into the ropes you give them enough momentum to come all the way back to you at full speed. Comedy spots ask you to go a step further and accept that a "three stooges" offense will cause damage, or that Chuck Taylor can throw imaginary hand grenades that really hurt. It's a heightening of something you're already doing. A "worked shoot" doesn't do that. A worked shoot asks you to suspend your disbelief, and then abandon that suspense, before asking you to re-suspend your disbelief in something else. It's pointing out that nothing you saw is real in big letters, then asking you to believe something else. Basically, it's the difference between "This isn't real, but let's act like it is", and "Nothing you saw was real, apart from this, which is DEFINITELY real!" EDIT: Imagine you're a fan of murder mystery weekends, the kind where you go to a hotel and while you're there one of the people you interact with is "murdered", and you and the other guests have to try and "solve the crime". One weekend, you go to a murder mystery where, as the case unfolds, it turns out that the murdered person has become a zombie, and as well as solving the murder, you have to fight off the zombie invasion. A few weeks later, you go to another murder mystery. Part way through the weekend, the actors start freaking out, and tell you that this was a murder mystery, but now they're genuinely scared because someone actually has been murdered. Everything until now was fake, but now there's an actual crime that you need to actually solve. Which of these would be more damaging to your sense of immersion? Lamuella fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Jul 31, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 13:08
|
|
|
MrBling posted:Pretty much the only thing that went exactly right was getting DDP over as the main face challenging the nWo. Especially the fact that Savage put him over clean in their feud which is quite extraordinary in itself. Is it? Savage wasn't exactly a selfish guy like Hogan and Nash were. Domestic abuser, sure, but he put guys over! Also I would love to hear what "story" was going to follow the Fingerpoke of Doom before Nut Bunnies fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Jul 31, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 13:23
|
|
|
Captain Charisma posted:Is it? Savage wasn't exactly a selfish guy like Hogan and Nash were. At that point in time, Savage never put people over clean.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 13:37
|
|
|
Lamuella posted:
This is the plot of an episode of The Jeffersons. Great post altogether, though I would add that the term "worked-shoot" has been used to refer to some very good things, such as '90s UWFi and worked era RINGS as well as the recent CM Punk promos which have caused me to watch wrestling for the first time in 4 years. The key difference is that a Vince Russo "shoot" seems to involve calling out the worked nature of the rest of the show. They were jarring and non-sensical. There was no way to parse them with the rest of what was going on. You were seeing one actor play more than one character (The "that's not Vince Russo the character but Vince Russo the boss" line from BATB 2000 is especially hilarious since Vince Russo the boss is of course another character) which they would switch between without indication. It's very amusing to watch certain WCW 2000 bits now sense we can appreciate them for the shear insanity they are, but unless they were catering to the as of yet untapped Dadaist wrestling market it was never going to work.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 13:55
|
|
|
Captain Charisma posted:Goldberg "sandbagged" a Jackknife Powerbomb, which the commentators chastised him for. He leaves the ring and screams gently caress YOU at Russo, who is on the stage. Wasn't it a month or two later that Steiner beat the poo poo out of DDP backstage, then called Kimberly a whore for five minutes on live television? Steiner was constantly rewarded during the last six months of WCW for being a loving psychopath and scaring the poo poo out of everyone. Pope Corky the IX fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jul 31, 2011 |
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 14:21
|
|
|
Sprecherscrow posted:This is the plot of an episode of The Jeffersons. agreed, and that's why from a writing point of view I hugely admire Punk's promo. While he does break the "fourth wall" in his promo, and acknowledge the existence of the real world and of wrestling outside of WWE, he does so in a way that is still consistent with the fiction of the show. While he takes a peek into the back room by mentioning Johnny Ace, he doesn't suggest that what's happening in the ring is a work. Everything he says is consistent with the fiction of the matches being real and of people actually fighting each other. If anything, Punk's promo made the experience more immersive for me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 14:31
|
|
|
The only time a worked shoot worked was with Brian Pillman because Bishoff is an idiot and it did not work well for the business but for Pillman. Well it should have if he never got in that car crash.
|
|
#
?
Jul 31, 2011 16:29
|
|
|
I watched the Fingerpoke live and vividly remember Schiavone talking about Foley winning the title. The Fingerpoke incident is literally the only time I got pissed about wrestling. If you really think about it, the reunited nWo at that point in time is a fantastic metaphor for WCW: big, bloated, and way past its prime.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2011 18:14
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:The only time a worked shoot worked was with Brian Pillman because Bishoff is an idiot and it did not work well for the business but for Pillman. Well it should have if he never got in that car crash. He still got a big contract from the WWF. A very big contract which the WWF probably couldn't have afforded for a guy who was going to be limited in the ring (but still have a million dollar tongue). It's just Pillman was banking on WCW being in that negotiation so he could create a negotiation war.
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2011 18:51
|
|
|
Pillman also wanted to stay in WCW, just with higher pay
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2011 18:53
|
|
|
Captain Charisma posted:Pillman also wanted to stay in WCW, just with higher pay Ya but the car crash made it so they no longer wanted him
|
|
#
?
Aug 2, 2011 18:56
|
|
|
wwf.com/wcw has an article up on The Demon http://www.wwe.com/superstars/wherearetheynow/where-are-they-now-kiss-demon
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2011 21:01
|
|
|
Astro7x posted:wwf.com/wcw has an article up on The Demon  Norman Smiley is the best.
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2011 21:27
|
|
|
Yep he was able to make up for the brutal killing of Pepe
|
|
#
?
Aug 4, 2011 21:29
|
|
|
bobkatt013 posted:Ya but the car crash made it so they no longer wanted him They still wanted him, but WCW refused to guarantee contracts for injury.
|
|
#
?
Aug 5, 2011 00:33
|
|
|
Well I made my way through the Death of WCW Book. Was pretty good, although a bit too straight forward with the recapping or what happened on Nitro each week. I felt like it pretty much wrote off all the good stuff completely near the end. Anyway, any other books similar to this to recommend? Amazon oddly enough recommends Bischoff's book "Controversy Creates Cash" which I never heard anything great about.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2011 06:39
|
|
|
Astro7x posted:Well I made my way through the Death of WCW Book. Was pretty good, although a bit too straight forward with the recapping or what happened on Nitro each week. I felt like it pretty much wrote off all the good stuff completely near the end. Bischoff's book is almost completely horrible. He either has the worst memory in the world (his memory is pretty bad) or is just blatantly lying the whole way through.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2011 06:46
|
|
|
MassRayPer posted:Bischoff's book is almost completely horrible. He either has the worst memory in the world (his memory is pretty bad) or is just blatantly lying the whole way through. Pay no attention to this review as its wrong. Bischoff's book is completely horrible.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2011 06:59
|
|
|
If you can get it cheap enough, I'd recommend Bischoff's book as long as you take all of it with a HUGE grain of salt. It's interesting to see his perspective and some of his philosophy's do make some sense (i.e. We can't do what WWF does as well as they do, so we have to be different from them and go after a different market). On the other hand, he's a complete oval office and there's a ton of bullshit in there. He glosses over a lot of things and outright ignores others, but there is some interesting stuff in there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2011 12:31
|
|
|
I loved the story at the beginning where he cheap shotted the bully because he knew he was leaving Michigan.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2011 12:34
|
|
|
Bischoff's book is hilarious. I tried reading it again a couple of months ago, I stopped reading when he went off on a rant about how the WWE books too many cool heels, they just don't understand how it's supposed to be done. Even now I am completely flabbergasted at the idea of Eric Bischoff scolding WWE for booking heels to be cool.
|
|
#
?
Aug 10, 2011 14:48
|
|
|
Astro7x posted:wwf.com/wcw has an article up on The Demon Demon lost, of course.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 04:28
|
|
|
triplexpac posted:Bischoff's book is hilarious. I tried reading it again a couple of months ago, I stopped reading when he went off on a rant about how the WWE books too many cool heels, they just don't understand how it's supposed to be done.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 04:36
|
|
|
I posted:All I remember is that terrible match with Vampiro, which was held outdoors in the dark, with only a small torch held by the referee as a light source. Not that it mattered, as there was no action anyway.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 05:13
|
|
|
I posted:All I remember is that terrible match with Vampiro, which was held outdoors in the dark, with only a small torch held by the referee as a light source. Not that it mattered, as there was no action anyway. Yeah I assume you mean the graveyard match from Bash at the Beach 2000. As Livid said, that was against Sting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yANzKozWKT0 video proof. E: I am wrong. The Bash match was against Demon. The video of the one against Sting was from a Nitro 2 months earlier. Lloyd Van Buren fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Aug 11, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 07:00
|
|
|
my favourite Demon fact is this: As part of their deal with Kiss, WCW had to agree that the Demon would appear in at least one main event match. When it turned out he sucked and nobody cared about him, WCW tried to get round this stipulation by describing his fourth-on-the-card match against The Wall at Superbrawl 2000 as a "special main event". There were seven matches on the card after this "main event", including: Tank Abbott versus Big Al in a Leather Jacket on a Pole match Big T versus Booker for the right to the letter T Billy Kidman versus Vampiro (probably a fine match, but if Billy Kidman is 3 up on the card from you, you're not in a main event) The Mamalukes (Big Vito and Johnny the Bull) versus David Flair and Crowbar plus three actual main events (Funk v Flair, Hogan v Luger, Sid v Hall v Jarrett) You know, the more I think about it, Superbrawl 2000 was one of WCW's worst ppvs ever.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 08:54
|
|
|
That Tank Abbot match is the one where he pulls out a knife, yes? That's the main event if ever there was a main event.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 09:00
|
|
|
Oatgan posted:That Tank Abbot match is the one where he pulls out a knife, yes? That's the main event if ever there was a main event. that is indeed the Tank Abbot knife match, which means that amazingly enough there were at least two matches on the card that were worse than the "special main event". I didn't even get into the 3-Count versus Norman Smiley match.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 09:08
|
|
|
Uncensored 2000 was WCWs worst PPV beyond a shadow of a doubt. There's not one remotely passible match on the card.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 13:01
|
|
|
Magic_Ceiling_Fan posted:Uncensored 2000 was WCWs worst PPV beyond a shadow of a doubt. There's not one remotely passible match on the card. Someone's forgetting about New Blood Rising
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 13:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 08:45 |
|
|
It's Hogan's loving "Apple Pie" strap match, that for some reason took place after the title match, that gets me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 11, 2011 13:05
|
|