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Fray posted:SO I just finished Deadhouse Gates. I still don't really understand what the hell Azath are. It's like a house? And also a plant? And they eat people? They're big superdimensional trees that contain warp gates inside them and also can act as prisons. They're a gigantic mystery and even after finishing the series you'll still be clueless.
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Jul 23, 2011 04:10
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Also sometimes there's a pretentious dude living in them.
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Jul 23, 2011 05:13
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There's "plenty" of quite specific information in DG when they are about to leave Tremorlor, and then in MoI when Paran goes into Rake's sword a second time.
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Jul 23, 2011 06:57
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When you think about it, there really are some people with silly amount of power that could've single handily influenced the story if they had decided to act... Gothos freezes the world, stopping the Crippled God and the Malazan Empire dead in their tracks. Book ends on page one, and page two is a sight of Karsa sitting cross-legged on the frozen wasteland with his chin on his hands.
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Jul 24, 2011 02:22
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:When you think about it, there really are some people with silly amount of power that could've single handily influenced the story if they had decided to act... To bad he is locked inside an Azath. Electronico6 fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jul 24, 2011 |
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Jul 24, 2011 02:30
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Electronico6 posted:To bad he is locked inside an Azath. I don't know about that. The end of DG suggests that he inhabits the Azath willingly, and in TtH he holds the builder of the Azath captive, and seems to be able to travel between the different Houses.
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Jul 24, 2011 23:47
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Juaguocio posted:I don't know about that. The end of DG suggests that he inhabits the Azath willingly, and in TtH he holds the builder of the Azath captive, and seems to be able to travel between the different Houses. Nah. He is stuck. But because he is Gothos he managed to find a way to cheat the system. That's why he can move between houses, and visit the dead azath in TtH. He wanted to discover the power of the Azath and use it for himself, but in the process he got trapped inside of it. It's part of his folly.
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Jul 25, 2011 01:50
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Hey guys, I'm not sure if this has been posted but I was surfing for some Malazan gossip online and came across the blurb for ICE's new novel. Here, read it for yourselves: A website posted:The epic new chapter in the history of Malaz - the new epic fantasy from Steven Erikson's friend and co-creator of this extraordinary imagined world... Maybe this kind of thing is exciting only to me, but I thought it was a neat find. Until I read it that is. This sounds really bad. I support ICE and all, because I like to get my hands on anything Malazan, but this just sounds awful. I hope this is fraudulent and isn't actually what it's going to be about. Is it me or does this sound like poorly conceived fan-fiction? Also, Dracoinus.
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Jul 26, 2011 12:45
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I think the problem is that it doesn't seem to have any real driving force behind it, it's just kind of like "well here's some adventure!" It feels like a Forgotten Realms book, instead of a part of an epic story.
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Jul 26, 2011 14:36
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It's also written by ICE which is a fatal flaw already.
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Jul 26, 2011 20:01
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Spills the Moon posted:Hey guys, I'm not sure if this has been posted but I was surfing for some Malazan gossip online and came across the blurb for ICE's new novel. Here, read it for yourselves: The problem for me is that this all sounds like poo poo directly lifted from Erikson's books. Jaghut Tyrant! Check. Some sort of Throne that bestows power! Double check. Ragtag Malazan army? Got that! Seriously, I know they created the world together and all, but it sounds like I'm reading a synopsis from some bizarro "What if?" version of GOTM.
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Jul 26, 2011 20:51
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A Nice Boy posted:The problem for me is that this all sounds like poo poo directly lifted from Erikson's books. Jaghut Tyrant! Check. Some sort of Throne that bestows power! Double check. Ragtag Malazan army? Got that! Well the problem with your problem, is that stuff is what Erikson left for ICE to write about. His books probably suffer from having to follow up storylines from Malazan Book of the Fallen directly. Like the Tyrant. That poo poo was in GotM and TtH but Erikson didn't get around to it, so his friend has to finish it up.
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Jul 26, 2011 21:12
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Electronico6 posted:Well the problem with your problem, is that stuff is what Erikson left for ICE to write about. His books probably suffer from having to follow up storylines from Malazan Book of the Fallen directly. Like the Tyrant. That poo poo was in GotM and TtH but Erikson didn't get around to it, so his friend has to finish it up. Yeah, that ONE aspect (which, honestly didn't need to be readdressed. Raest getting his kitty was a fine ending to his story). Where do the talk about this other throne in Erikson's books?
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Jul 27, 2011 12:34
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A Nice Boy posted:Yeah, that ONE aspect (which, honestly didn't need to be readdressed. Raest getting his kitty was a fine ending to his story). Where do the talk about this other throne in Erikson's books? Actually the Tyrants they are speaking is another Tyrant not Raest. The old ruler of Darujhistan which was called...the Tyrant. Blame Erikson for deciding to name him exactly like Raest. Thought it seems that he is another Jaghut. Which sounds a repeat of GotM. As for the other part, it is mentioned in Toll the Hounds, but they just talk about pilgrims coming to see the wreckage, no mention for thrones or new islands.
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Jul 27, 2011 13:44
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I finally finished the entire series and have read through this thread. I am a lot more clear now about what happened at the end of TCG (though it was just a jumbled mess for a while). I have a lot of problems with the unresolved plot points and I'm really really hoping that Karsa Orlog finally gets to do something awesome. I kept reading through the book going "KILL THE CRIPPLED GOD JUMP FROM THE SKY AND SLICE HIM IN HAAAALLLLLFFFFF" or something. He'd vowed to end him, it just seemed so anticlimactic that he was like "Oh an old guy now I'm going to kill Fener" (??). The worst part for me, though, was Bottle. I kept waiting and waiting for Bottle to bust out and do something amazing but other than possessing a bunch of birds and tearing his soul apart against the KCCM he really didn't do anything against the Assail - right? I didn't miss something? I also really disliked his treatment of women for the longest time. It seemed like every female character gets raped and that becomes the extent of her character. Though I will say that the way different characters dealt with it was interesting -ex Seren Padac vs Felisin, but the WORST I thought was Janath - let's just wipe her memory and now she's all better the end. I got the indication that this happened for Hetan too when she was rezzed at the end. BUT the development of Tavore's character really made me rethink my opinion of female characters in the books. I also really disliked his treatment of love. It basically went 1) two characters hang out for a while, there's some sexual tension or good-natured ribbing, 2) other stuff, 3) OUR LOVE WILL LAST FOREVER. This was mainly evident with Skyanarrow (sp?) and Ruthan Gudd, Lostara Yil and her big manly guy, and Seren Padac and Trull Sengar. Even with Whiskeyjack and Korlat I just kept thinking - Really? Didn't you guys just meet? Anyway. I'm interested in re-reading it once I have gotten some distance from it. I haven't read anything by ICE and while I would usually be gung ho for something like that I'm not sure it's something I want to dive into based on the prevailing opinions. Does Iron Bars come back? I will read if Iron Bars is in it.
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Jul 29, 2011 22:30
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hello clarice posted:I finally finished the entire series and have read through this thread. I am a lot more clear now about what happened at the end of TCG (though it was just a jumbled mess for a while). I have a lot of problems with the unresolved plot points and I'm really really hoping that Karsa Orlog finally gets to do something awesome. I kept reading through the book going "KILL THE CRIPPLED GOD JUMP FROM THE SKY AND SLICE HIM IN HAAAALLLLLFFFFF" or something. He'd vowed to end him, it just seemed so anticlimactic that he was like "Oh an old guy now I'm going to kill Fener" (??). The worst part for me, though, was Bottle. I kept waiting and waiting for Bottle to bust out and do something amazing but other than possessing a bunch of birds and tearing his soul apart against the KCCM he really didn't do anything against the Assail - right? I didn't miss something? Karsa's story continues in the future Toblakai series, which I think will be written by Erikson after he finishes with Rake's past. The extent of his involvement in the Fallen series seems to be his role as the Knight of Chains, so it is understandable that his whole I'm going to destroy civilization thing is beyond the scope of the series. Vanilla Mint Ice fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 29, 2011 |
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Jul 29, 2011 23:45
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Spills the Moon posted:Hey guys, I'm not sure if this has been posted but I was surfing for some Malazan gossip online and came across the blurb for ICE's new novel. Here, read it for yourselves: And WTF why would you pick a name like Dracoinus, just to confuse readers more with similarly-named characters?
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Jul 30, 2011 00:00
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Electronico6 posted:
Hrm, I didn't get the impression from that blurb that the "new throne" was Itkovian's grave but that'd make it more interesting.
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Jul 30, 2011 01:04
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A Nice Boy posted:Hrm, I didn't get the impression from that blurb that the "new throne" was Itkovian's grave but that'd make it more interesting. The actual pieces that fell from Moon Spawn. There's a brief mention, of people looking around for parts that fell during the attack, and trying to find where it sank to see if it has treasure, but they never mention islands and thrones. It was a just one passage in TtH, to flesh out the setting. The blurb really sounds pretty poor, especially this throne business. These ICE's novels should be really about Iron Bars and his chums kicking rear end all over the place. Not a dude named Grift trying to find something. 
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Jul 30, 2011 01:29
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hello clarice posted:
I don't really get this. I'm not gonna argue with your comments about those particular women, but I always felt that Erikson handled women extremely well. Tavore, Faradan Sort, Lostara Yil (hell, let's just say every female in the Malazan army), Envy, Spite, Apsalar, Yan Tovis...poo poo, I'm probably forgetting a lot more. All extremely capable, and miles ahead of women in other novels who tend to be capable despite being women than just being capable on their own. Hell, most of those would probably be men elsewhere.
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Jul 30, 2011 02:17
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Grift... maybe he's a grifter!
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Jul 30, 2011 02:58
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Oh Snapple! posted:I don't really get this. I'm not gonna argue with your comments about those particular women, but I always felt that Erikson handled women extremely well. Tavore, Faradan Sort, Lostara Yil (hell, let's just say every female in the Malazan army), Envy, Spite, Apsalar, Yan Tovis...poo poo, I'm probably forgetting a lot more. All extremely capable, and miles ahead of women in other novels who tend to be capable despite being women than just being capable on their own. Hell, most of those would probably be men elsewhere. I'm not saying that his women aren't capable, and if you read my post you'll see that I sorta revised my opinion with the development of Tavore's character. I'll say that he handles women well (much better than say Robert Jordan, who I love, but who writes all women as the same character over and over and over again) but I still just really couldn't get over the constancy of rape all the damned time. I know this is like the in thing with male fantasy writers or whatever (GRRM), but it still annoys me that a huge amount of female characters in fantasy are either raped or threatened with rape. I did like, however, the way Seren Padac handled her rape. She dwelled on it for a while, had a good cry, and with the help of Mockra realized that it wasn't who she was. I may be the only person who really wasn't a huge fan of Apsalar, I thought that through most of the books she was really busy either being possessed by Cotillion or dwelling over the fact that she was possessed by Cotillion. I really really liked Lostara Yil but when she just immediately fell in love with that hulking manguy (who she seemed to like for no other reason than he was a hulking manguy?) I just rolled my eyes and spent a lot of the last few books being annoyed by her. I liked what she said to Cotillion though, about how possessing her allowed him to experience love. Generally I thought Envy and Spite were pretty underdeveloped/one-dimensional throughout most of the books... other than being general badasses mages with awesome powers I will agree with you though and say though that a lot of his female characters are a lot more developed than other contemporary fantasy writers.
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Jul 30, 2011 04:08
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I'm curious on your position in love, in your opinion what then would be an acceptable way of convincing you that someone fell in love with someone else? Would they have to save them from an evil lord's castle or avenge their parents' death to be a valid enough reason for someone to love someone else? Not trying to make fun of you, just curious what is a good enough reason to you.
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Jul 30, 2011 04:18
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Vanilla Mint Ice posted:I'm curious on your position in love, in your opinion what then would be an acceptable way of convincing you that someone fell in love with someone else? Would they have to save them from an evil lord's castle or avenge their parents' death to be a valid enough reason for someone to love someone else? Not trying to make fun of you, just curious what is a good enough reason to you. No, I just usually like it when there is more development other than "Hello you are a large muscled man OUR LOVE IS FOREVER". It's less about actions, like saving someone from something, and more about how two characters interact. What does Lostara Yil like about that guy other than the fact that he's a big guy? I understand what Korlat sees in Whiskeyjack which is cool, but I guess I just like it when there's more build up to it. I dunno, this is a problem I have in most fantasy too. Robert Jordan seems to build incredibly unlikeable female characters who decide that they are in love with a guy and then basically browbeat him into loving them back. Terry Goodkind has Richard fall in love with Kahlan from the start in a "LOL UR PRETTY" kind of way. I like Name of the Wind as a romance, but I think that comes from the fact that it is at heart a love story. I wish I could think of more examples... OH VIN. Mistborn! Vin I think is a really strong, really well-developed female character who likes Elend for real reasons but also at times feels conflicted about her feelings for him too. Love is a lot more complex than "Hey let's bang" or "LETS DIE TOGETHER MY LOVE", and I like when she agonizes over their relationship and at times really seems to dislike parts of him. I guess I think romances should be built up and explained if they are going to be a motivator. I know I keep going back to Lostara Yil but she's the most glaring example for me.. "Hey I just met this dude aw he's awesome LET ME SHADOW DANCE FOR YOU MY LOVE" (I think I liked Pearl better, even though he was kind of needy and weird) as well as the Ruthan Gudd/Skanarow thing, and to another extent Seren Padac and Trull Sengar - I may have missed it in between picking up and putting down the books, but it seemed like they only really interacted a handful of times until he 'proposed' and then they were A LOVE FOR ALL TIME. I liked the thing with Hellian/Urb, though - that seemed pretty developed to me and the way both of their characters reacted was logical, even if it was a fairly minor point. Even though I feel like a lot of the romantic parts were pretty tacked on, I do sorta think that it's almost necessary because Erikson's not writing a bunch of love stories, he's writing about a war and an army and a lot of other things. Nitpicky of me, I guess, but ultimately it didn't really ruin my enjoyment of the book overall, it just annoyed me throughout. hello clarice fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Jul 30, 2011 |
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Jul 30, 2011 06:21
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hello clarice posted:I guess I think romances should be built up and explained if they are going to be a motivator. I know I keep going back to Lostara Yil but she's the most glaring example for me.. "Hey I just met this dude aw he's awesome LET ME SHADOW DANCE FOR YOU MY LOVE" (I think I liked Pearl better, even though he was kind of needy and weird) as well as the Ruthan Gudd/Skanarow thing, and to another extent Seren Padac and Trull Sengar - I may have missed it in between picking up and putting down the books, but it seemed like they only really interacted a handful of times until he 'proposed' and then they were A LOVE FOR ALL TIME. I liked the thing with Hellian/Urb, though - that seemed pretty developed to me and the way both of their characters reacted was logical, even if it was a fairly minor point. Even though I feel like a lot of the romantic parts were pretty tacked on, I do sorta think that it's almost necessary because Erikson's not writing a bunch of love stories, he's writing about a war and an army and a lot of other things. Nitpicky of me, I guess, but ultimately it didn't really ruin my enjoyment of the book overall, it just annoyed me throughout. I imagine it's difficult to strike a balance between spending time fleshing out characters and their backstories and advancing the main plot. Part of it is a byproduct of the genre where things like falling in love happen under the backdrop of huge dramatic events. For it to be more realistic, you'd have to insert a lot of interaction during relatively mundane events, but there's only so much of that you can have without straying from the primary narrative. Unfortunately, the story of Lostara Yil and her man's 3 first awkward dates really can't make the cut. I do remember some forshadowing of the Seren and Trull in their first interactions in Midnight Tides. They're both strong willed people who don't feel that they belong to their respective societies. I agree with you about Lostara's romance though. A lot of the blame has to go to her gradually turning into someone who is primarily there for exposition in the last couple books.
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Jul 30, 2011 16:59
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Fleshpeg posted:I imagine it's difficult to strike a balance between spending time fleshing out characters and their backstories and advancing the main plot. Part of it is a byproduct of the genre where things like falling in love happen under the backdrop of huge dramatic events. For it to be more realistic, you'd have to insert a lot of interaction during relatively mundane events, but there's only so much of that you can have without straying from the primary narrative. Unfortunately, the story of Lostara Yil and her man's 3 first awkward dates really can't make the cut.
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Jul 30, 2011 19:00
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Infinite Karma posted:Nobody's mentioned the Stonny/Gruntle romance plot? That one was really well done. Two people who care about each other, but have enough flaws and enough pride to always end up apart. They are like Crokus/Apsalar only believable. I prefer the Stormy/Gesler broromance myself.
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Jul 30, 2011 20:47
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Infinite Karma posted:Nobody's mentioned the Stonny/Gruntle romance plot? That one was really well done. Two people who care about each other, but have enough flaws and enough pride to always end up apart. They are like Crokus/Apsalar only believable. Oh you're definitely right, I thought that bit was really well-done. Junk Science posted:I prefer the Stormy/Gesler broromance myself. And also Fid/Hedge. And also QB/Kalam. And also Mappo/Icarium. And also Tehol/Bugg. So many great bromances. I wish Tehol/Bugg was like a buddy cop show or something like that. I would watch the hell out of it.
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Jul 31, 2011 00:34
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God, it smells like rotting ice in this thread.
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Jul 31, 2011 01:57
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Must be all those ochre potsherds that are crunching underfoot?
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Jul 31, 2011 02:06
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They're not really ochre. More like the color of dried blood.
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Jul 31, 2011 03:21
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Not sure if already posted, but Erikson writes about House of Chains and how Karsa Orlong was created: http://www.stevenerikson.com/index.php/the-problem-of-karsa-orlong/
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Jul 31, 2011 04:33
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Yeah, I was going to read that and then I scrolled down and realize too many words Anyway, I made it up to Toll The Hounds before but only got to about 120 pages in before I stopped. I think reading all the books one after the other burned me out. But I finished A Dance With Dragons and Ghost Story so now I'm back on this. Just made it to the start of "Book Two" and OH MY GOD KARSA ORLONG MOTHERFUCKERS If the books were less Anomander Rake brooding and more Karsa Orlong and his Malazan friends, I would be so happy.
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Aug 5, 2011 07:45
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Daric posted:Yeah, I was going to read that and then I scrolled down and realize too many words There's more brooding. A lot of it.
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Aug 5, 2011 07:48
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Electronico6 posted:There's more brooding. A lot of it. Despite his name, Caladan Brood does little brooding. Nimander's brood, however...
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Aug 5, 2011 11:22
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Shut up Anomandor is awesome  (seriously the end of that book rules hard)I know people don't like Toll the Hounds, but for some reason I liked it. About halfway through Dust of Dreams though...so the Barghest are basically a bunch of horrible stupid idiots as far as I can tell
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Aug 5, 2011 14:25
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Until TTH Rake was such a "meh" character, but in he final parts of that book, he shows so much of who he is and what he has gone through, and his resolve and deeds are amazing. I loved the Darujhistan bits sooooooooo much.
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Aug 5, 2011 14:35
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I finally read Eriksons books... RotCG and Stonewielder. They werent nearly as bad as NoK, but still pretty terrible dialogue. Now I want more. Of anything in the Malazan universe. I dont care who writes it or what it is about, I just want more... God damnit.
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Aug 5, 2011 16:27
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I just want Fiddler and Hedge throwing cussers at all their problems.
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Aug 5, 2011 17:18
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hello clarice posted:I'm not saying that his women aren't capable, and if you read my post you'll see that I sorta revised my opinion with the development of Tavore's character. I'll say that he handles women well (much better than say Robert Jordan, who I love, but who writes all women as the same character over and over and over again) but I still just really couldn't get over the constancy of rape all the damned time. I know this is like the in thing with male fantasy writers or whatever (GRRM), but it still annoys me that a huge amount of female characters in fantasy are either raped or threatened with rape. Two comments: 1) In the sort of medieval setting the Malazan book inhabits, rape or the threat of rape were/are constant issues for women. 2) The bit about somewhat spontaneous attachments I think has a LOT to do with the situations they're in, which are ridiculously stressful, constantly life-threatening, etc... The issue you bring up with regard to this is evident not only among women, but also among men, and more than anything else struck me as a side-effect of some form of PTSD. When you are spending every waking hour in this group of often unsavory individuals with whom you form a bond, are constantly under threat of death, constantly have friends die / get hosed up, and so on, your entire perception of 'normal relationships' becomes twisted. I guess I'm trying to say that with very few exceptions, I didn't really find anything wrong with how his women (or men) were written when you consider the context most of them dwell in.
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Aug 5, 2011 18:15
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