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FMguru posted:Dorne has a different culture than the rest of Westeros (it's Royneish, not Andal) so they do things differently there, and they were never conquered by the Targaryans, so they've maintained some of their cultural distinction. I think in Dorne the first-born child inherits, unlike the rest of the land where it's the first-born male child. Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks!
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Aug 9, 2011 21:24
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CornHolio posted:Maybe Howland told it all to Jojen and Meera (they seem to know something of it already) and at some point they tell it to Bran. Jojen and Meera both greet Bran in ACoC by referencing 'ice and fire'.
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Aug 9, 2011 21:34
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Webman posted:There aren't going to be any new POV characters except for the introductions and conclusions. I hope I'm wrong, but I get the feeling this is going to be one of those things that we end up quoting 5 years from now while laughing about what naive fools we were. 
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Aug 9, 2011 21:34
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Plucky Brit posted:Jojen and Meera both greet Bran in ACoC by referencing 'ice and fire'. And the HBO series will now be sponsored by Icy Hot No-Mess Vapor Gel.
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Aug 9, 2011 21:38
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Wow, I certainly found Dany's chapters less than interesting, but certainly not boring. This thread also surprised me with the theory of Dany going insane at some point. Though I totally missed Abel being Mance and the Frey pie thing too... Now that I think about it, I've always thought about Dany as "the" main character. She's an underdog that has defeated the odds that were laid against her and she's certainly one of the most easily likable characters in the series... So it would be very GRRMish if she descended into madness at some point. I always thought Dany would sit the Iron Throne and rule justly. Now I think it more likely that she's defeated after landing in Westeros, possibly raped (are you saying GRRM hasn't toyed with that idea throughout the series) and finally executed publicly or something equally unpleasant. It's just how he rolled with Ned, Renly, Robb, Oberyn and Jon. Dany could well be the longest buildup of such kind of them all. And for that reason I dread what may be coming. Her falling into Ramsay's hands perhaps?
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Aug 9, 2011 21:41
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Did GRRM actually say there would be no new POVs? He will throw in more if the story requires it. Dany is likeable through GoT when you think shes going to start wrecking poo poo, but after that... If she is the "main" character I will be disappointed. I hope Ramsay starts setting up Saw-like traps around Winterfell.
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Aug 10, 2011 00:18
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Habibi posted:I hope I'm wrong, but I get the feeling this is going to be one of those things that we end up quoting 5 years from now while laughing about what naive fools we were. There will be one more POV I can feel it.. who you ask? he is of the night.... 
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Aug 10, 2011 00:24
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Dance and Feast should've been heavily edited down to one book. They also shouldn't end on such bullshit annoying cliffhangers. The first three books didn't end on cliffhangers It's been like red dwarf. Series 6 ended on a massive cliff-hanger and then suddenly the show disappeared for years. When the show finally came back they did two seasons, and ended on an even bigger cliff-hanger. Then many more years passed with nothing. Then eventually they showed up with no explanation as to how they resolved the predicament and still refused to wrap it up, and now I'm pretty sure that's it. At least when they brought Gilligan's Island back they had the good sense to not milk it and sent the poor folks home. Ecco the Dolphin posted:I forget, where exactly is Howland Reed at this point? Just chillin' in the Neck? Someone has to meet him at some point for R+L=J, and nobody seems to be heading in that direction anytime soon. Howland Reed is taking his secrets to the grave, and probably getting high with Benjen somewhere. Putin It In Mah rear end posted:Just for the record, GRRM is only like 63, and while people joke about his girth, to my knowledge there's been no news of him ever having been hospitalized for health complications related to it. With modern medicine you can treat your body like poo poo and still have pretty good odds of sticking around for a goodish amount of time. I'd be worried if he were ten years older but 63 is just not a one-foot-in-the-grave age. If he was built like Iggy Pop I wouldn't be concerned. However his size suggests a diet of unhealthy American junk food and his books descriptions of food, drink, and excess, suggest a fondness for that which leads to arteries filled with cholesterol rich plaque. This coupled with his long term career choice of sitting at a desk and typing for long periods of time only to be interrupted by going to places where he sits down and answers questions and signs things or going to sporting events where only soda, beer, hot dogs, fries, and pies are served, does not bode well. If he announced tomorrow that he'd become a vegan and taken up walking around the block between every two pages of writing I might share your optimism.
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Aug 10, 2011 00:34
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Hold on, hold on.. they have -pies- at stadiums now?
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Aug 10, 2011 00:38
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hailthefish posted:Hold on, hold on.. they have -pies- at stadiums now?
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Aug 10, 2011 00:39
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Linguica posted:Are the pies made out of a certain eel-type creature... That rhymes with camp-Frey...?
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Aug 10, 2011 00:46
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hellbastard posted:Howland Reed is taking his secrets to the grave, and probably getting high with Benjen somewhere. I honestly wouldn't feel bad if R+L=J were never explicitly revealed in the entire series. "What do you think this is, some kind of fairy tale where the UNHAPPY On the other side, GRRM better drat explain all of the other mysteries that do not have a pretty waterproof explanation. kcroy posted:
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Aug 10, 2011 01:12
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So where did all the crap about Hodor and the Reeds dying and Howland Reed warging into Arthur Dayne come from? Were people just trolling or was it just poor translation/assumptions from when the book came out overseas?
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Aug 10, 2011 02:10
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I think a lot of it was bad assumptions and worse translations. There's a theory that Bloodraven warged into Howland Reed and he defended his own honor under the guise of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which might have ended up as "Howland Reed warging into Arthur Dayne", maybe? Or maybe a crazy alternate interpretation of the Tower thingy? Hodor and the Reeds dying was a fake spoiler/mistranslation based on the part where they're attacked by the wights outside of the cave and then they go in and there's the children of the forest and Bran does children of the forest stuff and leaves Hodor and the Reeds to basically hang out and dick around in the caves.
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Aug 10, 2011 02:17
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Guy A. Person posted:So where did all the crap about Hodor and the Reeds dying and Howland Reed warging into Arthur Dayne come from? Were people just trolling or was it just poor translation/assumptions from when the book came out overseas? Martin is good about either giving you enough information to figure it out, or turning something into an obvious guessing game. The prophecies about The Prince Who Was Promised are obvious. The ones that the weirdo lady keeps giving to Dany are supposed to be guessing games.
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Aug 10, 2011 02:19
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:The perfumed seneschal is obviously Varys. He couldn't pop up in aGoT without his cloyingly sweet perfume being mentioned. Somehow I doubt that Varys is that altruistic in his motives.
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Aug 10, 2011 02:23
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I'm still astounded that ADwD included several hundred pages of Tyrion and Dany doing gently caress-all while the series is already incredibly bloated. There's a difference between world-building and Boring poo poo To Take Up Space Because GRRM Doesn't Know Where the gently caress This Series Is Going. And gently caress that editor, forever, for postponing those concluding chapters until WoW.NihilCredo posted:You know, just because you wish you could be an edgy and rebellious Wild Card® doesn't mean you have to make lovely, inane posts all the drat time. It kinda does. 
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Aug 10, 2011 02:25
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Argali posted:Somehow I doubt that Varys is that altruistic in his motives. It's not altruism. He claims to serve the realm, and a king like Aegon would be a great thing for the realm.
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Aug 10, 2011 02:30
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Argali posted:Somehow I doubt that Varys is that altruistic in his motives. I think he is, actually. I think the one totally honest thing he's said in the series was that he serves the realm.
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Aug 10, 2011 02:32
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Guy A. Person posted:I wouldn't mind the pacing and worldbuilding if this were book 2 or 3 and GRRM were 20 years younger. But he has 2 books left so we are either going to get a drastic shift in tone from slow paced worldbuilding to major plot advances every chapter, or we are going to have a rushed and unsatisfying ending (like they largely hand-wave the war or Dany dies before she gets here or something stupid). Or else GRRM is going to say "well maybe 1 or 2 more books guys" when he is in his mid-70s and finished book 7 then we get no resolution. Don't be surprised when the next book gets split into 3 volumes and the next book after that gets split into 12
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Aug 10, 2011 02:35
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:I think he is, actually. I think the one totally honest thing he's said in the series was that he serves the realm. Margaery would be just as good as Dany on the throne, and it's not like he couldn't manipulate events so that the Lannisters would fall and a Highgarden Queen would be unopposed. He was very concerned about saving Ned Stark and getting him to the Wall. He's only shown similar concern over Dany. He is both supportive of sending men to the Wall and sending any useful exiles to Dany. Everything points to Varys trying to set things up so that Dany can assume the throne and save the realm. One assumes that he hid away Aegon as a second choice in case Viserys didn't work out (which he didn't). Of course he can't force Dany to choose Aegon, and chances are he doesn't know anything about Jon Snow being a secret Targ or Bran being the world's most powerful warg or any of the stuff readers know that make them much more likely to be dragonriders than Aegon.
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Aug 10, 2011 02:42
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Quantify! posted:People think that Varys is actually a Secret Bad Guy but I actually think he's the only one that knows what's going on and is actively working to fight the Others. Yeah this is basically what I said a couple of times earlier in the thread and everyone said I couldn't be more wrong. Glad someone else sees it like I do. I mean what real motives has Varys displayed for all his scheming? Littlefinger obviously lusts partially for power and partially to show off his own prowess at playing the Game. But Varys has never really seemed interested in either of those things for himself. The only thing approaching a "motive" that's been assigned to him was in Ilyrio's monologue in Dance, and that was to put a Targ back on the throne. Ilyrio obviously hopes to get some material gain through Dany/Aegon's gratitude once they're restored to the throne. But with all Varys' willingness to subvert the "honorable" course of succession for his own ends, and his total disinterest in gaining anything for himself personally, why on earth should he be so concerned about putting a Targ back on the throne? Varys' actions make no sense except through altruistic motivations. VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV Right, but it's plain that he sees a Lannister rule as harmful long-term to the realm ("Good men in service to bad causes") Ecco the Dolphin fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Aug 10, 2011 |
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Aug 10, 2011 03:01
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:I think he is, actually. I think the one totally honest thing he's said in the series was that he serves the realm.
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Aug 10, 2011 03:03
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FMguru posted:Except he killed Kevan Lannister because he was too close to actually putting the realm in order. Varys is working for a Targaryan restoration, and the more chaotic and divided and weak that Westeros is, the better. I think he's working to be the actual power behind a united Westeros, and that's only going to happen if the right person is sitting on the Iron Throne.
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Aug 10, 2011 03:13
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Unzip and Attack posted:God drat you GRRM. The foreshadowing is always so obvious in hindsight - gently caress Bowen Marsh. gently caress him right in the rear end, if only for ruining Jon's one bad rear end moment in the whole series. I thought the whole "Gonna go fight Ramsay" was incredibly stupid and completely against the build up we've had from the Stand By Your Vows Starks. I was actually glad to see him get stabbed over and over. He should've kept being badass and kept beating the men of the Wall into submission. Ecco the Dolphin posted:I think he is, actually. I think the one totally honest thing he's said in the series was that he serves the realm. Quantify! posted:One assumes that he hid away Aegon as a second choice in case Viserys didn't work out (which he didn't). Has there been any mention that Varys knows about the very real threat of the Others, beyond rumors around the realm? I would be shocked if he didn't know, but maybe... Also I'm gonna keep saying that I think Viserys and Dany were decoys to keep Westeros from digging deep and accidentally finding Aegon. They were obviously poorly educated and fed glamorous bullshit, and everybody knew who the gently caress they were and where they were. Aegon was thoroughly educated AND hidden well- if Varys oversaw all of that, does it seem likely he'd parade around a set of idiots and not mean them to be decoys? No. No it doesn't. I think he meant for Viserys and Dany to die all along but Dany has jumped from Varys's plans.
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Aug 10, 2011 03:23
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Keep in mind that Varys has very little real power. Even the people taking care of Aegon are exiles. Just like Jorah Mormont helped Dany and Viserys. They're not the best people for the job. Obviously Jon Connington doesn't have Aegon's best interests in mind since he supported him running off to invade Westeros. There's been no hint that Varys knows of the Others - but I interpret his "origin story" that way. He says he detests magic. This is to throw the reader off the scent. He may have been cut and his genitals used to perform magic, but I would imagine that afterwards he studied as much lore as he could and learned about the Others and the prophecy of Azor Ahai and all that. Perhaps during the magical ritual that cost him his genitals, he even saw the sorceror speaking with some representative of the Others? If I recall correctly, the flames burned blue. Generally R'hllor's flames are red... After all, he wasn't born in Westeros. He didn't have to come serve the Targaryens. And, after serving them, he didn't have to desire restoring them to power. I believe he's heard the prophecies and believes them. It's not much to go on, but given his motivations and the only real information we have on him, it's something that works. I have my suspicions that Qyburn is actually Varys's man as well. He took up the role of spymaster too easily. Varys would know how easy it would be to fool Cersei, and he could promise Qyburn a chance to serve under Dany. Someone like Qyburn would be thrilled to serve under a dragon queen. Of course Varys doesn't know that Dany would just kill Qyburn for his methods of magic, but hey.
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Aug 10, 2011 03:59
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I would like the dragons to die, without any of the fantastic "dragonrider" stuff even happening. Kind of like when Dany's son is stillborn. He was supposed to be the truly awesome Khal of Khals and wreck all kinds of stuff, but didn't, which makes Dany a better character. If she gets to Westeros and the Maesters actually manage to carry out some sort of dragon-assassination mission, it leaves things in an incredibly interesting place. Dany + Aegon and all their associated mercenaries/slaves + Dorne versus a really messed up Highgarden/Riverlands/Lannister powerbase holding the Iron throne and maybe the Freys and Boltons versus STANNIS and the north versus the Others. This four way conflict could be a really excellent dynamic ala aSoS, but if Dany has dragons it's all out the window. Even small dragons destroy armies, so she would wipe out the middle of Westeros before anything big even happened. Also just messing with all the prophecies would be great, and this doesn't need to turn into Eragon...
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Aug 10, 2011 04:17
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Yeah, I still think/hope that pretty much all of the prophecies getting shelled out like candy are all going to turn out to be total bullshit, and everyone's endless theorizing about them will be moot.
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Aug 10, 2011 04:48
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Quantify! posted:I'm pretty sure any theory that doesn't make you say "oh that makes sense" after thinking about it carefully is fans being idiots and turning "wouldn't it be cool if" ideas into their own personal continuity.
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Aug 10, 2011 04:56
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I am scared GRRM is just going to explain Varys's motivations by introducing some undisclosed Illuminati type group of conspirators who want to protect the realm/restore targs. I guess Varys/Ilyrio conspiracy already fits that definition but I am talking about an actual organization we don't know about a la the faceless men.
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Aug 10, 2011 05:03
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D-Pad posted:I am scared GRRM is just going to explain Varys's motivations by introducing some undisclosed Illuminati type group of conspirators who want to protect the realm/restore targs. I guess Varys/Ilyrio conspiracy already fits that definition but I am talking about an actual organization we don't know about a la the faceless men. So I seriously hope he does not go down this road!
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Aug 10, 2011 05:06
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Varys is either a Targ himself or he's just so pissed off at what dicks the nobles are after being in court through a mad king and a plain poo poo one. That he educates his birds and teaches them to read, when that's an unheard of skill in a commoner much less an orphan commoner suggests he places unusual worth on the dignity of the common man. I think he is just fed up with nobles treating everyone like their toys and decided to use his position in the court to try and make things just a little bit right. I doubt he's a Targaryen though.
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Aug 10, 2011 05:39
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I just went through the last 20 pages so I apologize if this was attacked already and I know I'm going to get sarcastic responses. Am I the only one who saw way more implications that Tyrion is a Targ in this book? I know it's been laughably hinted at before and I was in the camp of brushing it off but I saw a few things that seemed to be even more support. The major point was in Dany's chapter right after The King's Prize chapter: pg 577 in the hardcover book. Barristan posted:
It just seemed really out of place and detailed when it didn't really matter to Dany at the time. Isn't that hinting that they might have hosed at some point? It seems like one of those sneaky meaningful passages that seems like nothing but banter at the time until you think about it in terms of other characters. If the timelines don't work out where Aerys couldn't even be alive during the time Tyrion would have had to be conceived then my apologies. The only other thing in ADwD that seemed to point to it, though much more minor than the above passage was the fact that he basically got raped by a greyscale dude and doesn't show any signs yet while Connington seemed to just fight a few off and he's already got it all over his hand. Dany says somewhere how her brother or some Targ relative told her how those with dragon blood never got sick. She never contracted the flux despite basically swimming in it with the dying people outside the walls. I figured the sickness repelling might be related. Anyway, those two things really stuck out at me and I'm not the kind of person who was looking for reasons to argue that Tyrion's a Targ. Please eviscerate me so I can stop thinking about it and focus on how darkly-hilarious and pathetic the Reek chapters were.
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Aug 10, 2011 05:41
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D-Pad posted:I am scared GRRM is just going to explain Varys's motivations by introducing some undisclosed Illuminati type group of conspirators who want to protect the realm/restore targs. I guess Varys/Ilyrio conspiracy already fits that definition but I am talking about an actual organization we don't know about a la the faceless men. And just to gently caress with them I hope some group still loyal to House Gardner has been biding their time for three hundred years waiting to put the descendant of a secret line they've been protecting on the throne.
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Aug 10, 2011 05:48
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Lank posted:Am I the only one who saw way more implications that Tyrion is a Targ in this book? I know it's been laughably hinted at before and I was in the camp of brushing it off but I saw a few things that seemed to be even more support. Cersei and Jaime are the older Lannister kids, so if Lady Joanna conceived anyone with Aerys, it would be them. I know someone mentioned how even more twisted Tyrion and Tywin's relationship would be if Tyrion was his only true son. I could like that plot twist. After all, Targs are prone to twins and incest, and Jaime and Cersei are all over that.
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Aug 10, 2011 05:50
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hellbastard posted:And just to gently caress with them I hope some group still loyal to House Gardner has been biding their time for three hundred years waiting to put the descendant of a secret line they've been protecting on the throne.
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Aug 10, 2011 05:50
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Putin It In Mah rear end posted:That he educates his birds and teaches them to read, when that's an unheard of skill in a commoner much less an orphan commoner suggests he places unusual worth on the dignity of the common man.
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Aug 10, 2011 06:30
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NihilCredo posted:You know, just because you wish you could be an edgy and rebellious Wild Card® doesn't mean you have to make lovely, inane posts all the drat time. Haters gonna Hate (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 10, 2011 06:40
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Legendary Ptarmigan posted:I would like the dragons to die, without any of the fantastic "dragonrider" stuff even happening. Kind of like when Dany's son is stillborn. He was supposed to be the truly awesome Khal of Khals and wreck all kinds of stuff, but didn't, which makes Dany a better character. If she gets to Westeros and the Maesters actually manage to carry out some sort of dragon-assassination mission, it leaves things in an incredibly interesting place. Dany + Aegon and all their associated mercenaries/slaves + Dorne versus a really messed up Highgarden/Riverlands/Lannister powerbase holding the Iron throne and maybe the Freys and Boltons versus STANNIS and the north versus the Others. This four way conflict could be a really excellent dynamic ala aSoS, but if Dany has dragons it's all out the window. Even small dragons destroy armies, so she would wipe out the middle of Westeros before anything big even happened. Eh, I disagree. It is a fantasy series, after all, and just having people ride about and torch poo poo with dragons isn't going to make it Eragon. I think this is the perfect series to explore how the common people react to some crazy foreign woman showing up and laying waste to the countryside with her monsters-out-of-myth, especially because we've been set up to see her as the "good guy".
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Aug 10, 2011 06:40
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Dany can still get sick, it happened when she ate the shitberries she thought she saw someone maybe feed to a horse once. I laughed so hard at that part, it reminded me if those little red berries in the woods your parents always told you not to eat.
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Aug 10, 2011 06:55
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