|
Honestly, I think that Party Ireland is a legitimately not-bad idea. Not as a gimmick, but as a "get as far the gently caress away from Christendom as possible" strategy.
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 04:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 19:04 |
|
|
Wiz posted:- Kingdoms have been fiddled with a lot.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 04:49
|
|
|
Wiz posted:- Kingdoms have been fiddled with a lot. Is there any chance you could package up your changes? I'm in the mood to play CK again, but I'd like to add something new. Edit: Oh hey that guy asked too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 05:24
|
|
|
Out of curiosity, would said mod work on Vanilla CK? I ask because my attempt to download DV failed for some reason - when I try to boot it up I get told that I'm missing some textures or something.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 05:42
|
|
|
Patter Song posted:Honestly, I think that Party Ireland is a legitimately not-bad idea. Not as a gimmick, but as a "get as far the gently caress away from Christendom as possible" strategy. So we'll be muslim Irish fighting the hated English through EU3? I can get behind that, now where are those boat tickets 
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:07
|
|
|
Eiba posted:
If you replace the word Islam with Targaryen and replace wiped out with marriage, then you basically have the world of A song of Fire and Ice
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:17
|
|
|
Historical questions: Why were there so many Mongols? Where'd they all come from? Why'd they all migrate together? Why didn't they peter out before reaching Europe? How come Europe didn't have such huge numbers of people just ready and willing to be a continent-spanning army?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:19
|
|
|
AgentF posted:Historical questions: Why were there so many Mongols? Where'd they all come from? Why'd they all migrate together? Why didn't they peter out before reaching Europe? How come Europe didn't have such huge numbers of people just ready and willing to be a continent-spanning army? Dunno Mongolia They wanted to conquer tons of poo poo They were really well organized under strong leadership Europe and the middle east was quite fractured, and the organization and discipline of the mongol armies put them at an enourmous advantage in any battle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:25
|
|
|
AgentF posted:Historical questions: Why were there so many Mongols? Where'd they all come from? Why'd they all migrate together? Why didn't they peter out before reaching Europe? How come Europe didn't have such huge numbers of people just ready and willing to be a continent-spanning army? The mongols were a collection of related tribes from the Steppes region, generally disunited but occasionally united under a single leader (like Dschingis). Part of the reason they were so numerous is that, a) the nomadic nature of the tribes prevented a lot of the outbreaks of disease that destroyed more settled populations in Europe, India, etc., and b) they had a huge amount of quite isolated land to sustain the nomadic lifestyle while being insulated from outside influence. So you could easily have two or three million people on the steppes in the best health you could reasonably expect for the time - all of them very hardy as a result of the climate of the area. Another key factor is that a mongol archer riding a mare was his own supply line - a combination of milk and blood could be all a warrior would eat for days at a time, bulked up by hastily hunted meat. The Hordes would massively overhunt an area when concentrated, but with how quickly they'd move... As to the cultural or social reasons for the Hordes developing, I admit I don't know well enough to say. edit: though it's impossible to know exactly the size of the Mongolian steppe, it was probably about as large as modern India. lonelywurm fucked around with this message at 06:37 on Aug 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:28
|
|
|
AgentF posted:Historical questions: Why were there so many Mongols? Where'd they all come from? Why'd they all migrate together? Why didn't they peter out before reaching Europe? How come Europe didn't have such huge numbers of people just ready and willing to be a continent-spanning army? It was less a migration and more a tidal wave of conquest, like Alexander the Great's or the Roman Empire's. The reason they didn't lose steam before hitting Europe was that because they weren't just a rampaging horde of nitwit barbarians; they were actually frighteningly effective tacticians and actually sent droves of spies and plants into Europe to map out Roman roads and report on how the nations were disposed to each other so they knew who to hit first. They were also utter bastards who loved to play up how fearsome they were with psychological warfare and flanking maneuvers, having entire groups of armed horsemen appear out of nowhere while people were focusing on the tiny group of Mongols on the ridge proverbially blowing raspberries at them. They also faked retreats often, firing their bows behind them or just springing on the opposing army after they chased them for a while, leading to actual Mongol retreats eventually being unchallenged for fear of trickery.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:31
|
|
|
Yeah, the sheer tactical effectiveness of Mongol light cavalry cannot be overstated. Mongol cavalrymen were trained to fire arrows rapidly and accurately while on the move, their horses were basically supply stores with legs, and they were able to move and coordinate incredibly well due to years of training and experience. A unit of Mongol cavalry was essentially the medieval equivalent of a platoon of LAVs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:37
|
|
|
But other powers had already mastered the horse archer, such as the Parthians. Why didn't this make them a similar superpower?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:40
|
|
|
AgentF posted:Historical questions: Why were there so many Mongols? Where'd they all come from? Why'd they all migrate together? Why didn't they peter out before reaching Europe? How come Europe didn't have such huge numbers of people just ready and willing to be a continent-spanning army? https://www.wikipedia.org
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:43
|
|
|
AgentF posted:But other powers had already mastered the horse archer, such as the Parthians. Why didn't this make them a similar superpower?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:45
|
|
|
AgentF posted:But other powers had already mastered the horse archer, such as the Parthians. Why didn't this make them a similar superpower? Numerical superiority, adaptation of captured Chinese siege techniques, incredible leadership and, frankly, they got used to winning. That's a hugely important, and often under played, aspect of success. When the question becomes not 'can I defeat my neighbor' but 'which neighbor' or better yet 'which neighbor first,' well, yeah. Also, I've heard argued that their 'horde' lifestyle meant that, rather than stopping to live in the vacated land, marry the locals or whatever they just said 'gently caress farms and marriage, I'll go steal that dudes stuff and rape his wife instead.'
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:49
|
|
|
Yeah, largely the Mongol strategy of conquest was to go somewhere, bash heads until the locals got the idea, execute any dissidents, and make it clear that if there was any trouble about paying their tithes and tributes, they would come back and just kill everyone. After they conquered someplace, they rarely bothered leaving significant occupation forces, trusting their psychological warfare to leave a lasting impression, allowing the bulk of their forces to move on to the next target.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:53
|
|
|
Agent Interrobang posted:Yeah, largely the Mongol strategy of conquest was to go somewhere, bash heads until the locals got the idea, execute any dissidents, and make it clear that if there was any trouble about paying their tithes and tributes, they would come back and just kill everyone. After they conquered someplace, they rarely bothered leaving significant occupation forces, trusting their psychological warfare to leave a lasting impression, allowing the bulk of their forces to move on to the next target. But don't think that they wouldn't actually send people back to kill everybody if they didn't get their stuff, because they could and they would.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 06:55
|
|
|
So what you guys are saying is that the Mongols were a protection racket. "Nice cathedral you guys built here. It'd be a shame if something were to... HAPPEN to it."
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:19
|
|
|
loquacius posted:So what you guys are saying is that the Mongols were a protection racket. "Nice cathedral you guys built here. It'd be a shame if something were to... HAPPEN to it." "Oopsy! I hope you didn't like that nice little border fort. A shame, really"
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:27
|
|
|
loquacius posted:So what you guys are saying is that the Mongols were a protection racket. "Nice cathedral you guys built here. It'd be a shame if something were to... HAPPEN to it." I think it went more like "Do anything funny and we're burning your cathedral to the ground... with all of you inside... after raping you of course."
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:31
|
|
|
AgentF posted:Historical questions: Why were there so many Mongols? Where'd they all come from? Why'd they all migrate together? Why didn't they peter out before reaching Europe? How come Europe didn't have such huge numbers of people just ready and willing to be a continent-spanning army? The thing is, there weren't actually that many Mongols. They were almost always numerically inferior or at the most on par with the armies they faced. But they had brilliant generals (Genghis Khan and his "Dogs of War", Jebe, Jelme, and Subotai who may be the greatest general ever that no one ever talks about) and well organized, disciplined, and battle hardened armies. The original actual Mongol tribe was very small, but Genghis Khan assimilated huge numbers of other Mongolian, Turkic, and Indo-Iranian nomads into his army since most of these groups were culturally very similar to one another and their was a lot of social fluidity in nomadic culture on the steppes of Central Asia. The other thing is luck. The Mongols appeared at a time and place that allowed them to exploit a lot of their enemies at times when they were not very prepared to handle invasions. The Mongols really are such a crazy anomaly in history. It'd be something like modern day Albania conquering Europe. They came out of absolutely nowhere, from incredibly humble beginnings, and most of their success can be put on the shoulders of one man, Genghis Khan, who besides being a great general and conqueror, was an incredibly smart guy that was always thinking ahead to what the empire needed. He molded together a unified steppe empire out of innumerable warring tribes and then aimed that empire he created always at a new target. A lot of historians theorize that the Genghis kept conquering because he did not want his people to get complacent and dissolve back into petty intertribal squabbling, so he just continually kept them on the warpath. He revolutionized Central Asian society and introduced a written language, and a fairly modern code of laws to a group of people who had never had either before. He was always adapting and usurping the tactics and technologies of the people the Mongols conquered as well, attaching wagon trains of Chinese and then Persian and Arabic engineers to his highly mobile armies to conquer the one thing steppe people had always had such a hard time with, walled cities. Nomadic steppe people had always been feared by the way they could fight and wage war, but their conquering and raiding before had almost always been sporadic and they had been just as likely to fight with each other as they would fight with settled enemies. Genghis used what was good about his nomadic roots and added on to them where they were deficient. He took their natural mobility and tactical war making acumen and added a meritocracy officer system, a decimal based organizational system, an incredibly efficient "pony express" style communication network, and high tech (for the time) Chinese siege trains to batter down the walls of the enemy. BlackJosh fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Aug 12, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:38
|
|
|
Reminds me alot of what we did to the Native Americans. Manifest Destiny Mongol style.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:48
|
|
|
Popy posted:Reminds me alot of what we did to the Native Americans. Honestly, it's more like if the plains indians all colluded together and conquered the Europeans settlers and settled natives in America.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:52
|
|
|
Genghis Khan making Asia his bitch is certainly impressive, but I also found it impressive how his offspring managed to keep things going as long as they did before trouble started brewing even after his death.BlackJosh posted:Honestly, it's more like if the plains indians all colluded together and conquered the Europeans settlers and settled natives in America. So you mean something like this?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 07:53
|
|
|
Also, if you forced the Mongols into a siege, they would get loving pissed off and burn your city to the ground when they were done. That's what happened to Baghdad, Al-Musta'sim made the Mongols besiege it, they destroyed canals that were thousands of years old, burnt the libraries, killed the fleeing civilians, and razed the city. This had a powerful effect on whether or not other people were willing to let the Mongols in without a siege.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 08:04
|
|
|
Cycloneman posted:Also, if you forced the Mongols into a siege, they would get loving pissed off and burn your city to the ground when they were done. That's what happened to Baghdad, Al-Musta'sim made the Mongols besiege it, they destroyed canals that were thousands of years old, burnt the libraries, killed the fleeing civilians, and razed the city. This had a powerful effect on whether or not other people were willing to let the Mongols in without a siege. "Do you have any idea how boring it is waiting in these things? We could have been out riding our steeds! You are getting your rear end kicked so hard for this" Actually is this timeline's Baghdad in such a state? There was no real siege in this war, from the looks of things. Perhaps this time the culture and buildings are better preserved.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 08:30
|
|
|
It's also important to remember that the Mongols' first big target was the already-ailing Song Dynasty in China, which was one of the most (if not the most) high tech civilizations (and one of the richest, of course) in the world. They had a nice economic engine in China fueling their progress.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 08:31
|
|
|
BlackJosh posted:The Mongols really are such a crazy anomaly in history. It'd be something like modern day Albania conquering Europe. Not really, there were a lot of steppe empires before them (for instance, when the Mongols conquered China, its northern half was already ruled by nomad conquerors that had become sinified) and some after. (even not counting the Mongol successor states - the Manchus conquered China themselves as late as 1644) Genghis was definitely the most successful nomadic conqueror, but I wouldn't call him an anomaly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 08:35
|
|
|
 Just watch this for a while.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 08:37
|
|
|
Hey Wiz, how's Sweden doing through all of this?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 09:46
|
|
|
White-Devil posted:Hey Wiz, how's Sweden doing through all of this?  Pretty good it seems! Old map, but not much had changed in the rest of the world Wiz said.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 11:37
|
|
|
I wish CK had a bigger palette for state colours, it's not like it's exactly uncommon to have 2/3 bordering each other with the same colour.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 12:01
|
|
|
RabidWeasel posted:I wish CK had a bigger palette for state colours, it's not like it's exactly uncommon to have 2/3 bordering each other with the same colour. Especially considering the balkanisation, enclaves and exclaves common in CK.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 12:21
|
|
|
Haha, I'm loving the Sultanate-in-exile-from-exile-from-yet-another-exile. By the time of Vicky 2 I'm guessing that Azerbaijan is somewhere around Australia, preparing to retake it's rightful sea in Hawaii.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 12:30
|
|
|
And here I was thinking the Glorious Sjrb Continued Conquest of Romes was schizophrenic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 12:57
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Haha, I'm loving the Sultanate-in-exile-from-exile-from-yet-another-exile. By the time of Vicky 2 I'm guessing that Azerbaijan is somewhere around Australia, preparing to retake it's rightful sea in Hawaii. If this cycle continues we're going to have a claim to the whole world 8)
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 13:25
|
|
|
Man, all this Mongol warfare talk just made me reinstall Medieval 2 TW + Stainless Steel.lonelywurm posted:Another key factor is that a mongol archer riding a mare was his own supply line - a combination of milk and blood could be all a warrior would eat for days at a time, bulked up by hastily hunted meat.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 13:38
|
|
|
NihilCredo posted:Man, all this Mongol warfare talk just made me reinstall Medieval 2 TW + Stainless Steel. A mid-sized horse has about 35-40 litres of blood in its body, so you can tap out a fair bit without affecting it overly much. Blood is also hella nutritious, so you don't have to drink a whole lot of it in order to survive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 13:46
|
|
|
NihilCredo posted:Wait, whose blood would the archer drink? Could a mare be bled enough to sustain a man without collapsing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 13:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 19:04 |
|
|
Cycloneman posted:I'm pretty sure Mongols had more than one horse at a time, so they could switch between them and ride for longer. The Wikipedia article covering stuff like this seems quite good. 3 to 4 horses per soldier apparently. The source for that is not a bad read either.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2011 14:02
|
|