|
Unzip and Attack posted:So if the people "willing to go to" such lengths to purposefully not recognize a character's homosexuality aren't motivated by homophobia, what magical force is guiding them? Bad reading abilities.
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 05:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 18:07 |
|
|
menino posted:there's no agenda? but there is a post where you basically equate not catching JCon being gay (based on one flashback BTW) It's actually based on several things sprinkled throughout both POV chapters but cool thanks for jumping in without actually reading my posts and just getting mad. Everyone misses tons of stuff when slogging through GURM's terrible writing, who cares. That's not the dumb thing. The dumb thing is reading about a dude pining over an unrequited love and mind-twisting it into "nah he just really really admired the guy. No homo!!" Unzip and Attack posted:So if the people "willing to go to" such lengths to purposefully not recognize a character's homosexuality aren't motivated by homophobia, what magical force is guiding them? IMO people can be really uncomfortable with homosexuality to the point of avoiding it even subconsciously without being outright/consciously homophobic, if you disagree that's fine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 05:44
|
|
|
I can't tell if this is a huge troll or not but some of these people on this list weren't even hinted at being gay: Renyl Loras Lord Connington Dolorous Edd Pyp Ser Barristan Varys The Blackfish Of these, Renly, Loras, Jon Connington are the only obviously gay characters in the book. The list also misses Whoresbane Umber, who killed a male prostitute allegedly to hide his gayness. Also Satin, Jon's squire, who WAS a male prostitute. In the TV show only, Varys is implied by Littlefinger to be gay, when he calls him out on his little boys. The Blackfish may or may not be gay, he's pretty adamant about never getting married, even when he was setup by his lord brother when he was younger. Dolorous Edd, Pyp, and Ser Barristan don't have any hints about being gay, unless I'm missing something really obvious. Ser Barristan in particular moons over Ashara Dayne (a girl!), his major unrequited love. Edit: How is 'Dolorous' a big hint that Dolorous is gay? Not sarcastic at all, I don't get it, the word means 'mournful'. There has to be some reference I'm not getting - is Dolorous similar to a female name or something? Edit2: 'Dolores Park' in San Francisco, considered to be part of the Castro District and passed during the annual Dyke March. This has to be it. If this is the reason, I'd say it's pretty weak evidence, weaker even than The Blackfish, who had strenuous objections to getting married. enigma74 fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Aug 22, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 05:47
|
|
|
bigmcgaffney posted:Bad reading abilities. You know people who make the conscious effort to read poorly? YES bread posted:IMO people can be really uncomfortable with homosexuality to the point of avoiding it even subconsciously without being outright/consciously homophobic, if you disagree that's fine. That's not the point. You equated people who didn't catch Connington's sexuality with people who purposefully make an effort to ignore or cover up the sexual orientation of fictional characters. To me the distinction between conscious and subconscious homophobia is trivial when you are making huge blanket statements such as the ones you have been making in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 05:49
|
|
|
enigma74 posted:I can't tell if this is a huge troll or not but some of these people on this list weren't even hinted at being gay: Huh, forgot about Ashara Dayne, I guess Barristan is bisexual. But yeah you need to reread the books because you're missing out on some pretty big hints. And yeah, Dolorous is a pun on Edd's laziness and gayness.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 05:57
|
|
|
Unzip and Attack posted:That's not the point. You equated people who didn't catch Connington's sexuality with people who purposefully make an effort to ignore or cover up the sexual orientation of fictional characters. Yeah? So? That's a thing that people actually do, sorry if it made you upset. Unzip and Attack posted:To me the distinction between conscious and subconscious homophobia is trivial when you are making huge blanket statements such as the ones you have been making in this thread. The writing was so clear that reasons for missing it are pretty much 1. I'm uncomfortable with gays, so I'll avoid thinking of this character as gay even against reason presented in the text 2. Wasn't really paying attention, ADWD was boring Two is fine and understandable and no one should have a problem with it, which is why I only posted about 1. *edit* I guess a third option would be "Real bad at reading. real bad" which I admit to slanting towards in earlier posts, which was probably more out of frustration and bad form on my part. Jon Connington is still a huge gay who wanted to make yaoi with Rhaegar. YES bread fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Aug 22, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:00
|
|
|
Proposition Joe posted:Huh, forgot about Ashara Dayne, I guess Barristan is bisexual. But yeah you need to reread the books because you're missing out on some pretty big hints. And yeah, Dolorous is a pun on Edd's laziness and gayness. Actually if Dolorous Edd was gay, it would make perfect sense as to why Jon sent him away to be steward of the spearwife-only restored fort with Iron Emmett. This is really funny in the typical Dolorous Edd way, because Jon might be thinking he's giving Edd a plum position to be surrounded by spearwives - where really Edd isn't into woman at all.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:08
|
|
|
enigma74 posted:EActually if Dolorous Edd was gay, it would make perfect sense as to why Jon sent him away to be steward of the spearwife-only restored fort with Iron Emmett. Pretty much. Edd never catches a fuckin break. Unzip and Attack posted:You know people who make the conscious effort to read poorly? Yes. Me, that way I can be surprised on re reads.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:12
|
|
|
When's someone gonna notch this troll-fest up to the next level and declare that no one in ASOIAF is really gay because being gay is a choice?
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:17
|
|
|
So what dangling plot/character stuff is everyone here most interested in? Euron loving poo poo up with a magic horn? Whatever the hell the maesters are up to (or whether there's even a conspiracy at all)? White Walkers? Kind of a tertiary plot bit, but I want to learn more about Howland Reed, myself. We've heard scant little about him, but I find it all fascinating as gently caress. GRRM is most likely saving him for the whole "Jon Snow is a Targ" reveal, and that's fine, but I'm more interested in two things: 1. Closure on the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. That was one of the best chapters in book three for me. 2. How he saved Ned from getting his rear end killed by Arthur Dayne. I mean I guess he could have back-stabbed the man or hit him with a poison dart or something, but I like to think he just flipped the gently caress out angry-short-man style and soloed the three Kingsguard knights after everyone else in Ned's group died. For a character who hasn't actually appeared in the books yet, he seems like a pretty cool dude.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:21
|
|
|
Alright I'll keep a lookout for Dolorous Edd on my rereads. I'm not convinced yet, but if it's there I'm gonna find it. Unless this is a multiple-wildcards trollfest, in which case I'll admit you got me good. But Pyp, and Ser Barristan as a bisexual? No way. Show me like one line in the books. Pyp was sexually propositioned in the TV series by some gay lord (which led him to the wall) but that hardly counts. He refused the proposition pretty strongly too.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:21
|
|
|
Eggnogium posted:When's someone gonna notch this troll-fest up to the next level and declare that no one in ASOIAF is really gay because being gay is a choice? If we take into account the historical period the series is roughly based on and cultural norms at the time, no one would have actually identified as homosexual. Individual homosexual acts/desires would have been seen as just that, individual acts/desires that did not fit into an overarching "homosexual identity". Therefore homosexuals, pedophiles, and rapists do not exist in ASOIAF. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:24
|
|
|
Jesus you guys it was a troll.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:25
|
|
|
YES bread posted:Yeah? So? That's a thing that people actually do, sorry if it made you upset. Oh there's an internet original right there - someone disagrees with you so they must be emotionally involved in the discussion. It's ok with me if you want to label anyone who didn't catch it as either unworthy of posting in this thread or a bigot. Let's just be clear that what you are doing is making an absurd, childishly simplistic assumption about thousands of people while simultaneously parading around as some sort of righteous, enlightened benefactor of the gay community. Jon's internal monologue does suggest the possibility/probability that he had romantic feelings for Rhaegar. I see it, and most people probably see it too. But to accuse people who didn't of being either clueless or homophobic is ridiculous. Calling someone a bigot is kind of a big deal, perhaps you should reserve it for when there's more evidence than your simplistic categorizations. EDIT - apologies for keeping this going, but every ASoIF thread has people who love to white-knight gender, race, and sexual orientation issues as if they are fighting the good fight and it's getting loving old. Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Aug 22, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:27
|
|
|
300 pages to go. CAN I DO IT? I loving hate Dany at this point.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:29
|
|
|
Desumaytah posted:So what dangling plot/character stuff is everyone here most interested in? Euron loving poo poo up with a magic horn? Whatever the hell the maesters are up to (or whether there's even a conspiracy at all)? White Walkers? I feel Howland Reed knows too many secrets of the past to have a major part of the series, even now. If he's ever introduced, he'll be just like Ser Barristan and only have some vague regrets over the past. 1) I thought the KoTL was Lyanna, and that Rhaegar refused to reveal the KoTL's identity because he respected her actions. Also probably why he crowned her the queen of love and beauty. 2) In the KoTL story, Howland Reed trained with the green men on the isle of faces for a while. If these green men were the children of the forest, or some wilding-like culture, they could have taught him warging skills. Since Dance of Dragons, we've known for sure that humans can warg into other humans. Varamyr tried to do this with his wilding caretaker before he died, and Bran does it regularly with Hodor. If Howland Reed tried to warg into Arthur Dayne (or any other of the Kingsguard), we would have hosed them up for sure. The wilding woman wasn't expecting it, and basically clawed her own face out. I don't think anyone could be in top fighting condition if a powerful warger was trying to get in their head, and would be easy pickings for even an average swordsman like Ned.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:30
|
|
|
Unzip and Attack posted:Oh there's an internet original right there - someone disagrees with you so they must be emotionally involved in the discussion. Uh from several replies it was really clear that people were upset that I had implied them to be homophobic, despite the tone of my posts I was being entirely sincere. quote:Let's just be clear that what you are doing is making an absurd, childishly simplistic assumption about thousands of people while simultaneously parading around as some sort of righteous, enlightened benefactor of the gay community. This is a totally absurd overstatement, unless you want to point out these thousands of people I'm somehow insulting. It's also kind of insane that you are somehow equating me pointing out that a character is a homosexual with self-righteous liberal grandstanding, so get off it. From the rest of your post it's obvious I did end up making you upset, which makes the first thing I quoted even weirder. Unzip and Attack posted:EDIT - apologies for keeping this going, but every ASoIF thread has people who love to white-knight gender, race, and sexual orientation issues as if they are fighting the good fight and it's getting loving old. Pointing out that a gay character is gay is not white knighting, the only problem here is you projecting it onto everything so you can get all indignant.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:36
|
|
|
YES bread posted:If we take into account the historical period the series is roughly based on and cultural norms at the time, no one would have actually identified as homosexual. Individual homosexual acts/desires would have been seen as just that, individual acts/desires that did not fit into an overarching "homosexual identity". Therefore homosexuals, pedophiles, and rapists do not exist in ASOIAF. However cuckolds, flayers, and whoresbanes definitely DO fit into an overarching identity. "Yes, I make it my practice to peel the skin off of people. Mostly for fun. Well, its so much a part of my identity that I put it on my flag. No, I don't think its wrong at all."
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:39
|
|
|
I think it needs to be said again that most of the male homosexuality is only hinted at or mentioned in hushed tones, while female homosexuality is graphically depicted and absurdly fetishistic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:42
|
|
|
Yeah by the way is there any kind of historical thing that would relate "cuckholding" with "putting horns" on a dude, or is it just something he made up for flavor because it drove me bananas.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:43
|
|
|
YES bread posted:Pointing out that a gay character is gay is not white knighting, the only problem here is you projecting it onto everything so you can get all indignant. Are you really trying to backpedal and say that all you've done is "point out" that Connington is gay? Really? You're either a really good troll or have a lovely short-term memory. How's that for a ridiculous binary categorization for you? As for Howland Reed, having watched the TV show and read Book 5, I'm really beginning to wonder if GRRM isn't backing out of the whole R+L=J deal. The mysterious identity reveals are already getting a bit stale.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:44
|
|
|
YES bread posted:Yeah by the way is there any kind of historical thing that would relate "cuckholding" with "putting horns" on a dude, or is it just something he made up for flavor because it drove me bananas. Shakespeare used it a lot in Othello, and the wikipedia article mentions the origins of the "horns" idea.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:49
|
|
|
I find it hilarious and amusing that every ASOIAF thread on the Internet has people up in arms about gay characters. Jon Connington is gay, deal with it. And I'd rather read about his gayness than just about every lesbian scene in the series.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:54
|
|
|
Unzip and Attack posted:Are you really trying to backpedal and say that all you've done is "point out" that Connington is gay? Really? Calling people bad at reading isn't white knighting either, sorry. You'll have to keep tilting at that strawman who keeps white knighting queers and browns and females in your precious safespace. computer parts posted:Shakespeare used it a lot in Othello, and the wikipedia article mentions the origins of the "horns" idea. This is kind of a relief to know because when he kept using "scale from the dragon that flamed him" it made me eyeroll pretty hard. Straight up lifting generally doesn't rub me as wrongly as when authors try to put their own ~special flare~ on stuff.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 06:55
|
|
|
YES bread posted:Calling people bad at reading isn't white knighting either, sorry. You'll have to keep tilting at that strawman who keeps white knighting queers and browns and females in your precious safespace. Yep, I hate all minorities subconsciously and all you said was that Connington was gay - you didn't make any sort of assertions about the people who didn't catch that. You win!
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 07:08
|
|
|
Unzip and Attack posted:Yep, I hate all minorities subconsciously and all you said was that Connington was gay - you didn't make any sort of assertions about the people who didn't catch that. You win! Pretty much bro. e: for the sake of actual content, is the chapter GRRM read from the other day available to read anywhere, or is only a synopsis out there? e2: I think Benjen might be gay too. bigmcgaffney fucked around with this message at 07:41 on Aug 22, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 07:15
|
|
|
Don't really know what you want me to say, I'm sure there are plenty of queerscared crybaby breeders who refuse to even consider JC being a gay. There are other normal and non-malicious reasons people would not pick up on it and I touched on those in a previous post.bigmcgaffney posted:e: for the sake of actual content, is the chapter GRRM read from the other day available to read anywhere, or is only a synopsis out there? I also am interested in this, all I've been able to find are badly written summaries. YES bread fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Aug 22, 2011 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 07:17
|
|
|
If anything, I would have expected there to be more gay characters, especially at isolated man-only places like the Wall. Sure they can go visit Mole's Town, but I can imagine plenty of guys crawling together under a bearskin at night when ranging.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 08:24
|
|
|
You know who would have been a perfect couple? Pod and Penny. He would have been able to talk to his feet but look her in the eyes at the same time! No chance of that happening now though, stupid gurm...
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 08:51
|
|
|
Desumaytah posted:Whatever the hell the maesters are up to (or whether there's even a conspiracy at all)? I posited this theory earlier in the thread but I'll bring it back out. I think the maesters are behind the seven. We know they hate magic and it's the only religion we have seen to show no magic/real power behind it. I think they created the religion because the people need a religion but they want them to follow a non-magic religion that they control behind the scenes. There is no evidence for this theory at all that I could find in the books but it appeals to me. The seven are obviously gaining power with the reinstatement of their religious order and the maesters seem to be up to something.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 09:20
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:I posited this theory earlier in the thread but I'll bring it back out. I think the maesters are behind the seven. We know they hate magic and it's the only religion we have seen to show no magic/real power behind it. I think they created the religion because the people need a religion but they want them to follow a non-magic religion that they control behind the scenes. It's true that the seven are the only religion that seems to lack magic power. Well, there's the Unsullied goddess, but we don't know too much about that yet. Still, they might actually exist, but might be relatively benign relative to other supernatural entities. Davos seemed to get a helping hand from the seven when he was stranded after the battle of the blackwater. It seems all the religions that have power involve human sacrifice. R'hllor likes people burned alive, the drowned god gets drowned people, even the old gods (if they even are gods) got some fresh blood spilled for them as Bran saw while training.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 09:40
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:I posited this theory earlier in the thread but I'll bring it back out. I think the maesters are behind the seven. Desumaytah posted:GRRM is most likely saving him for the whole "Jon Snow is a Targ" reveal, and that's fine Desumaytah posted:2. How he saved Ned from getting his rear end killed by Arthur Dayne.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 11:21
|
|
|
enigma74 posted:It seems all the religions that have power involve human sacrifice. R'hllor likes people burned alive, the drowned god gets drowned people, even the old gods (if they even are gods) got some fresh blood spilled for them as Bran saw while training. Don't forget that Mrri Maz Duur is also able to do blood magic in the service of her Great Shepherd.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 11:30
|
|
|
my cat is norris posted:300 pages to go. CAN I DO IT? Don't worry, the book ends with her blasting watery poo poo into the bushes and hating her life!
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 12:40
|
|
|
D-Pad posted:I posited this theory earlier in the thread but I'll bring it back out. I think the maesters are behind the seven. We know they hate magic and it's the only religion we have seen to show no magic/real power behind it. I think they created the religion because the people need a religion but they want them to follow a non-magic religion that they control behind the scenes. This theory and the Iron Bank + Faceless Men collaboration theory are my favourites in the thread so far. Also, an ending with Dany ruling over Essos, Aegon on the Iron Throne, and Jon the Warden of the North would be satisfactory to me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 13:19
|
|
|
I think that if you are being high-and-mighty about picking up subtle clues which indicate a character in a fantasy series is gay, and that anyone who thinks otherwise shall be slapped down and aren't real fans, then, well... You may need to re-evaluate your priorities in life.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 14:06
|
|
|
What about the Viper? Everyone knows he likes to have women and men in his bed. I haven't seen the TV show, but as it's HBO I'm sure there will be lots of people gaying it up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 14:10
|
|
|
Azure_Horizon posted:I find it hilarious and amusing that every ASOIAF thread on the Internet has people up in arms about gay characters. Jon Connington is gay, deal with it. And I'd rather read about his gayness than just about every lesbian scene in the series. I don't think anyone has a problem dealing with that fact.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 14:21
|
|
|
YES bread posted:It's actually based on several things sprinkled throughout both POV chapters but cool thanks for jumping in without actually reading my posts and just getting mad. Go back and read the books then, and then show us every single passage where people talk about Rhaegar. JC's recollections are not demonstrably different, even if gurm has stated that there's a gay POV (really the only evidence for JC and extra textual at that). For you to imply that people reading this are homophobic because they don't immediately come to your conclusion is idiotic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 14:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 18:07 |
|
|
Azure_Horizon posted:I find it hilarious and amusing that every ASOIAF thread on the Internet has people up in arms about gay characters. Jon Connington is gay, deal with it. And I'd rather read about his gayness than just about every lesbian scene in the series. Except that's not remotely what anyone in this thread is upset about at this point. YES bread posted:Don't really know what you want me to say, I'm sure there are plenty of queerscared crybaby breeders Yes you are a troll 
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2011 14:52
|
|
