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steinrokkan posted:Just out of curiosity - what would happen if the Papal State got annexed? I don't think that happened in any of my Paradox playthroughs, but considering our current Pope is quite weak and surrounded by united Italy, I like to think it's a possibility. Edit: for gently caress's sake. 
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Aug 30, 2011 00:46
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steinrokkan posted:Just out of curiosity - what would happen if the Papal State got annexed? I don't think that happened in any of my Paradox playthroughs, but considering our current Pope is quite weak and surrounded by united Italy, I like to think it's a possibility. A Catholic theocracy (assuming one exists) gets an event letting them choose to become a Papacy.
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Aug 30, 2011 00:46
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steinrokkan posted:Just out of curiosity - what would happen if the Papal State got annexed? I don't think that happened in any of my Paradox playthroughs, but considering our current Pope is quite weak and surrounded by united Italy, I like to think it's a possibility. There's an event that fires if the controller is Catholic that forces them to release the Papal States or suffer serious penalties. I can't remember if they become a vassal or not.
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Aug 30, 2011 00:46
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Reveilled posted:Thing is, Venice, Naples and Milan are duchies, not Kingdoms, so a design like that would suggest that the bearer is the Duke of Milan, Venice, Rome and Naples, using the personal arms of his house (Hauteville). Regardless of what the titles for Venice or Milan are, they hold that territory, so the arms would appear. The Habsburgs incorporated the arms of a lot of duchies like Brabant and Burgundy into their arms. I'm just trying to use the resources that are out there instead of having to come up with something from scratch especially when the "Emperors of Rome, King of Sicily and the Lombards" title is more of a reflection of prestige. If I'm not mistaken Lombardy in this era is a catch-all term for Northern Italy.
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Aug 30, 2011 00:50
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Pakled posted:I know nothing about Islamic vexillology (other than obvious stuff like the color green, star and crescent, etc) but I imagine Andalusia's flag would hearken back to the Caliphate of Cordoba. Unfortunately, I can't find any sort of symbol of the Caliphate, the closest I can find is the modern city of Cordoba's flag, the history of which I don't know anything about. But perhaps Andalusia's flag could be some derivation of this. The Star and Crescent was adopted by the Ottoman Empire because the Crescent was a symbol of the city of Constantinople and is a modern symbol of Islam among typically non-Arab states. It would be silly to plaster the star and crescent on every flag we need considering that Constantinople is not Islamic and the time period is before the star and crescent would gain popularity anyways. I think making flags with backgrounds of traditionally used colors (red, white, green, black) with some national symbols on them (abstract stuff, text, and plants, no animals from what I can gather) would work best.
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Aug 30, 2011 00:51
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Proposition Joe posted:I think making flags with backgrounds of traditionally used colors (red, white, green, black) with some national symbols on them (abstract stuff, text, and plants, no animals from what I can gather) would work best. I would say that even such arabesque motives would be too adventurous.
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Aug 30, 2011 00:54
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steinrokkan posted:I would say that even such arabesque motives would be too adventurous. Well maybe not for arab states like Egypt, Syria, etc. For Andalusia, Persua, and Kurdistan who knows what should be going on.
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Aug 30, 2011 00:57
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Maybe some kind of calligraphy for the bigger sultanates like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Bismillah.svg. Probably on a black background as it was a color used in most flags of Mohammed.
Frionnel fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 01:02
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Proposition Joe posted:The Star and Crescent was adopted by the Ottoman Empire because the Crescent was a symbol of the city of Constantinople and is a modern symbol of Islam among typically non-Arab states. It would be silly to plaster the star and crescent on every flag we need considering that Constantinople is not Islamic and the time period is before the star and crescent would gain popularity anyways. Huh, that's interesting. I didn't realise that was where those symbols originated from. Well basic tinctures and the use of a round shape as the base of the heraldry seems to be a common theme. Animals do seem to be rarely used but eagles and horses seem to have been used sparingly. And cups. A surprisingly large amount of cups. Perhaps for Egypt a flag similar to Azerbaijan with a green circle and inside is either a red circle or an actual symbol of a sun? The green representing Islam. Maybe if we're feeling ostentatious add a hawk in the middle there. Although that might be too focussed on Ancient Egypt.
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Aug 30, 2011 01:04
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okay, here's my really bad first draft.  edit: that's Genoa, the Sicilian Hautevilles, Venice and Rome, with anachronistic-but-cool Hauteville dynastic arms inescutcheon. Not really satisfied with it and I might switch out the Sicily arms with the proposed Lombardy ones. Or disregard this entirely, if you think it sucks. 2nd edit: Since Italy doesn't actually own Rome, I rearranged a bit. Here's the actual size needed for EU3: 
MadPierrot fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 01:07
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I do like the Iron Crown of Lombardy symbol Reveilled made, so I'd personally want that to be incorporated into the Italy flag. I was going to suggest that you use the historical flag for the Latin Empire, Wiz, but it looks like you already have it on there. Doing some easy and very not-in-depth research, the Kingdom of Thessalonica was historically a crusader state, so using the flag it had in reality wouldn't be very culturally accurate. You could use the Chi Rho on a colored field as their symbol, though Byzantine Cherson might still have that as their flag. Nicaea could use the Nicaean Empire's flag of the Lascaris family. Is Rhodes a crusader state or just independent? I would contribute flags, but my lack of image editing prowess is only equal to that of my knowledge of heraldry. Spiderfist Island fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 01:08
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MadPierrot posted:Regardless of what the titles for Venice or Milan are, they hold that territory, so the arms would appear. The Habsburgs incorporated the arms of a lot of duchies like Brabant and Burgundy into their arms. I'm just trying to use the resources that are out there instead of having to come up with something from scratch especially when the "Emperors of Rome, King of Sicily and the Lombards" title is more of a reflection of prestige. If I'm not mistaken Lombardy in this era is a catch-all term for Northern Italy. The Habsburgs put all their duchies on their arms because they were Dukes. If you're a duke, you put all your duchies on your arms. If you're a king, you put your kingdoms on your coat of arms. Yes, Lombardy is a catch-all term for Northern Italy, but in this era the Kingdom of Italy was the italian area of the Holy Roman Empire, which the Sicilians have wrested from the collapse of the more centralised HRE. In Wiz's version of CK, the Kingdom of Italy has been renamed to the Kingdom of Lombardy. So the hautevilles have two kingdoms, Sicily and Lombardy. They are also claiming one further title, that of the Roman Empire. So, three king level titles. Do we have an example of a coat of arms featuring three kingdoms? Here's one:  The primary title goes in Quarters 1 and 4 (in our case this would be the claim to the Roman Empire), then the next most important kingdom goes in quarter 2 (as the home of the Hautevilles, this would most logically be Sicily), and the third kingdom goes in quarter 3. EDIT: and at the risk of belabouring this point, the harp there in quarter 3 is the coat of arms of Ireland. Now this particular symbol didn't appear on the British coat of arms until after Ireland was officially made into a Kingdom in itself, and despite the fact that the English ruled over ireland for about 400 years prior to this, they never added any irish symbols to their arms. Why didn't the Kings of England put any irish symbols on their arms? Because Ireland wasn't a kingdom, and therefore didn't merit a place on the arms. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 01:17
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Man, flagchat gets so much harder to follow when the game's set in an era where there are recognized and complex rules on how to make flags.
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Aug 30, 2011 01:32
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Tomn posted:Man, flagchat gets so much harder to follow when the game's set in an era where there are recognized and complex rules on how to make flags. Late EU3 and Vicky flags are going to be much more fun.
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Aug 30, 2011 01:36
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Reveilled posted:But by that same logic, their entire coat of arms should be that of the Roman Empire claim. You wouldn't put imperial titles on a shield next to king titles. Just look at Byzantium.
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Aug 30, 2011 01:53
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The final resized version. Sorry for all these posts. Ideas: change the order of the blazons, maybe add another and make the horse an inescutcheon again. Another proposal is to simply make it Horse/Sicily/Horse/Sicily. I kind of like that, so I might try it later tonight. edit: Quick 'n dirty  2nd edit: Darker blue version. I really like this one. 
MadPierrot fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 01:56
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MadPierrot posted:Another proposal is to simply make it Horse/Sicily/Horse/Sicily. I kind of like that, so I might try it later tonight. Do this, it would be more aesthetically pleasing. edit1: Except Horse/Sicily/Sicily/Horse. edit2: Yep, that second one owns. Proposition Joe fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 01:57
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MadPierrot posted:The final resized version. Sorry for all these posts. Disrespectful to kingly titles. 
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Aug 30, 2011 02:05
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Making flags; Kurdistan:  Morocco:  or  Cyrenaicia:  or  Algeria:  Egypt or Syria: 
Proposition Joe fucked around with this message at 05:09 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 02:36
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MadPierrot posted:That's a drat fine flag; granted I know gently caress all about heraldry but it sure is pleasing to the eye.
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Aug 30, 2011 02:37
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Reveilled posted:Catholic Theocracies will get an event to become the Papal States. Usually when the Papal States gets annexed, they end up either in Riga or one of the German bishophrics. My two all time favorites were Papal Malta and Papal Gotland. Also, I think there's an order of precedence, because if Avignon is independent, the Pope will always choose it first, IIRC. If there isn't an Avignon, he just picks some theocracy (and one time I saw the Pope pick Aquelia and end up running a decent-sized country).
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Aug 30, 2011 02:41
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An idea for Al-Andalus/Andalusia: 
Frionnel fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 02:48
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Do we have something for Vladimir-Suzdal? Also, I just noticed that Bremen, which looks like it'd be a very, very rich 3 or 4 PM in EU3, is a Bishopric. If the Pope has to flee Rome and ends up moving into Bremen, he could be a real powerhouse in a messy, disorganized neighborhood.
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Aug 30, 2011 03:00
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This didn't really resize that well but it's a proposed flag for Cherson so I figured I might as well get some ideas or criticism for it. edit: Here's my resized and re-envisioned Gascony flag. I'm really proud of this one, even if it was relatively simple.  For those of you who thought it was too dark:  A more unique Orleans, sans-fleur-de-lys with a design featuring virtually no historical basis whatsoever. 
MadPierrot fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 03:15
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MadPierrot posted:This didn't really resize that well but it's a proposed flag for Cherson so I figured I might as well get some ideas or criticism for it. Two-headed black eagles are always good in my book.
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Aug 30, 2011 03:26
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Frionnel posted:An idea for Al-Andalus/Andalusia: Would you mind posting a larger image? I'm interested in what it says, but the picture is too small for me to figure out the fancy calligraphy.
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Aug 30, 2011 04:07
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MadPierrot posted:This didn't really resize that well but it's a proposed flag for Cherson so I figured I might as well get some ideas or criticism for it. I think the second, lighter, one looks better.
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Aug 30, 2011 04:09
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Viola the Mad posted:Would you mind posting a larger image? I'm interested in what it says, but the picture is too small for me to figure out the fancy calligraphy. Oh, i was also interested in what it says because it's just a random image from google. But yeah, check if it doesn't say anything completely unrelated, just so i know the image is ok: 
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Aug 30, 2011 04:11
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It says "Al Rahman, Al Raheem". It's two of the names of God - The Gracious, The Merciful. Usually, though, there's a "In the name of" that precedes it. It's not required, but that's how the chapters of the Qur'an begin.
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Aug 30, 2011 05:18
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Shroud posted:It says "Al Rahman, Al Raheem". It's two of the names of God - The Gracious, The Merciful. Usually, though, there's a "In the name of" that precedes it. It's not required, but that's how the chapters of the Qur'an begin. drat I wish my college had Arabic classes.
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Aug 30, 2011 05:30
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A trio of (mostly) inaccurate French flags. Wasn't really sure what to do here since there is not really a strong France in this timeline (though there may be in the future) and most of the existing French CoAs revolve around the familiar gold fleur-de-lys on blue. So I took some artistic license. Lorraine, rather straightforward and historical.  Berry, with the colors changed and its Fleurs turned to castles.  Finally Anjou, which is completely bullshit made-up.  I am sorry if I have offended anyone who feels very strongly about fake coats of arms. MadPierrot fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 06:37
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I can't tell you guys how happy I am that we finally have something to argue bitterly about in a Wiz LP. Yay!
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Aug 30, 2011 07:06
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Shroud posted:It says "Al Rahman, Al Raheem". It's two of the names of God - The Gracious, The Merciful. Usually, though, there's a "In the name of" that precedes it. It's not required, but that's how the chapters of the Qur'an begin. To take this tangent even further: the laam takes on an r sound since it is a sun letter, so arrahman arraheem. Add the "In the name of God" (the surahs start with bismillah, not just bism) and the phrase goes to the genitive case, so irrahman irraheem. (Yes, you probably knew all that, but I thought I'd share this tidbit for the benefit of those who hadn't studied Arabic. Plus I'm reviewing Arabic grammar for the first time in ages and want to share the
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Aug 30, 2011 07:35
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I really feel we'd be remiss not to include some classical/imperial Roman influence on the Italian coat of arms, considering Wiz did say that the king styled himself as the inheritor of the Roman Empire. Keep in mind that just because a nation does not control a particular piece of territory at any given point in time does not mean that the nation doesn't believe the territory rightfully belong to them.
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Aug 30, 2011 07:43
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For Andalusia we could always do something more abstract. I don't have access to photoshop and I don't have a steady hand but this is my attempt at "Al-Andalus" as a bird: It's very rough but I think the general concept would work. Testikles fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Aug 30, 2011 |
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Aug 30, 2011 07:58
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A Golden Eagle for our pseudo-Rome?
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Aug 30, 2011 07:58
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Garenas posted:I really feel we'd be remiss not to include some classical/imperial Roman influence on the Italian coat of arms, considering Wiz did say that the king styled himself as the inheritor of the Roman Empire.
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Aug 30, 2011 08:13
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Yeah, let's be frank, anybody whose worldview is 'I AM THE REBIRTH OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE' is probably more about egomania than, you know, actual Roman traditions.
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Aug 30, 2011 08:32
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Testikles posted:For Andalusia we could always do something more abstract. I don't have access to photoshop and I don't have a steady hand but this is my attempt at "Al-Andalus" as a bird: In case anyone wants to see the incredible range this type of calligraphy possesses: https://encrypted.google.com/search...iw=1440&bih=738
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Aug 30, 2011 08:45
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Plenty of egomania in those days though. Every "emperor" somehow styled himself as a Roman successor. When an empress ruled Constantinople, Charlemagne could claim the imperial crown for himself. During tribulations in Constantinople, the Bulgarians could style themselves emperor. When Constantinople fell, the Eastern imperial crown was claimed by the Russians. As for the Western imperial crown: it stuck to those elected HRE. Except in 1871, when the leader of all Germans thought it necessary to claim an imperial title. Plenty of egomania - and they all want to see themselves as the successor of Augustus and Constantine. That said, SPQR and eagles feel really un-christian. You're dealing with a Christian Rome (or successor Rome). A late Roman chi-rho (the XP-symbol) seems a lot more appropriate.
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Aug 30, 2011 09:13
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