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Ignimbrite
Jan 5, 2010

BALLS BALLS BALLS
Dinosaur Gum
I agree with zorak, though with the airship and blimp mods making it easy (well, easier than using the nether) to travel long distances in a relatively short period of time, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth when you get killed a few thousand blocks from your spawn.

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Zorak
Nov 7, 2005

trandorian posted:

Except I remember when beds were first introduced that it was going to ruin the game so much to not have to go back to original spawn according to a lot of people! You were supposed to have to trek a thousand blocks on foot with no items if you died, according to them , or minecraft wasn't fun.

Strawmans are cool! wait, no, they aren't

The point is intrinsic risk involved. The whole point of beds is allowing you to "set" where your home is. Your safe haven. If you leave your safe haven, you are no longer safe. You are forced to prepare for it, ready for it, mentally and physically in the game mechanics. The risk is all part of the whole bloody game.

It's not a matter of ARE YOU HARDCORE ENOUGH, it's a a matter of basic risk-reward pysche stuff. You want good stuff, and you have to risk bad stuff to get good stuff. This is how "adventures" work. Walking into a shopping mall where your antics might result in you being sent outside the mall before coming back in to grab your MP3 player is different from, say, breaking into an abandoned run down shopping mall where you run the risk of physical harm / legal troubles. The adrenaline induced by the risk is why "adventuring" is fun at all.

And when you gently caress up, yeah it's frustrating. Thankfully, this is just a video game though, and all it does is make you even more paranoid about the danger in the future. Which is kind of the entire point of "Minecraft": build a thing while holding off the risks at hand. Having a hand-burning moment that reminds you that there is an actual penalty to not being cautious keeps you always on your toes and aware of the risk. If the worst that can happen to you is that you have to walk ___ feet to grab your chest, or even just be sent back to your home, there's nothing to lose there. Worst case scenario you have to backtrack. Gasp.

Without any sort of item decay or risk of losing items, the game is just creative with mobs in and a grind.

e: it's the whole reason why the Nether has Ghasts, even. The reward is the fast travel/ rare resources, the risk is one of the most difficult to handle mobs in the game. Risk, reward. Danger from exploring from "home", associated rewards for managing to do so successfully. By approaching the situations intelligently you can mine yourself safely. That's basically Minecraft in a nutshell.

Zorak fucked around with this message at 08:52 on Sep 6, 2011

Eiba
Jul 26, 2007


Zorak posted:

Degrading items is really the only thing that ads any sustained value to a lot of the resources. The huge flaw with Terraria's model is that the moment you "move up" a tier, most of the resources of the previous tier become entirely pointless/ useless to collect.
Except you kind of have the opposite problem in Minecraft. True, I still have a use for stone pickaxes, because it's really not worth it to waste an iron or diamond one gathering cobble... but at the same time that means I never use an iron or diamond pickaxe except on rare ore a stone one can't break.

And anyway, even a system where items degraded but you could repair them, even if it costs the same amount of resources- like throwing a diamond into your diamond pickaxe to restore a third of its HP- would totally change the psychology of the system, and would be a lot more satisfying.

Zorak posted:

You want good stuff, and you have to risk bad stuff to get good stuff. This is how "adventures" work.
I get that, and totally agree. I just don't think the risk has to be what it currently is.

Time is really the ultimate resource- you can use it to get anything in the game- and being sent back to spawn does cost you time. A lot less time than however long it took you to find those two diamonds in your sword, but some time in any case. So even if there were no additional penalty, being sent back to your spawn is in fact a real risk.

In fact, it's the normal risk. Almost every time I die I know more or less where I was. It's just the time it takes to find my stuff and rearrange my inventory that I suffer... and I still really don't want to die and feel bad when I do. The game is not rendered shallow and meaningless.


But the real point here isn't that things should be easier- if there were a similarly devastating penalty for death that somehow let you keep your stuff, that'd be okay with me. My issue is that it prevents the compelling gameplay feature of keeping and growing attached to your stuff.

If an item gets sentimental value in Minecraft currently, you're going to want to put it in a chest for safe keeping... and then you might as well not have it.

Minecraft is all about letting you make your own world, but it actively discourages you from making your own character through it's death mechanics.


I've fallen in lava carying a stack of diamonds before, with my diamond sword and pick. I know that grief. I like that I felt that grief, because it was a really strong experience in the safe confines of a video game.

But I've also felt the stress of choosing which items to risk on my next caving expedition... and time and again concluded I shouldn't bother bringing anything remotely valuable. Neither that stress nor the poorly (but smartly) equipped expedition add anything to the game.

If I could just... not worry about my items and use what I wanted to use, I'd be a lot happier. I'd still like the thrill of combat in dark scary caves, just without all the bother with items.


And full disclosure- I'll probably never play survival single player once 1.8 comes out. It'll be all creative mode for me when playing by myself. I've started playing online with friends recently and that's the only time any adventuring or grinding in Minecraft is fun for me anymore. So considering I kind of burnt out on adventuring the better part of a year ago, I may not have the best perspective on this issue.

Jin Wicked
Jul 4, 2007

Well, I never!

Rozzbot posted:

Which one of you is this?



The photos from PAX are going up on facebook now, they are all amazing.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=246324915403005&set=a.246324882069675.53881.165039663531531&type=1&theater

I want to say something about the comments on this but I cannot find the words.

The other photos with women in them are not much better. Ugh.

a japanese pop icon
Mar 3, 2010

by Fistgrrl
I agree risk makes the game more fun, one of the most common complaints in old multiplayer was no monsters/fall damage/etc. That said, terraria has a hookshot which is a massive oversight by minecraft.

Asimo
Sep 23, 2007


Speaking as someone who generally plays Minecraft Survival as "super creative mode" with the difficulty as a minimum, I'm not sure it's the monsters and risk that make it. Oh, they're certainly a big part, but once you've built a safe base and know the basics of minecraft combat (which isn't really hard, it's not the most complex game here) it's really pretty superfluous, and dying pointlessly in the abyss is just a frustration. Really, the big thing that gives it longevity compared to something like Terraria is what Zorak kind of hit upon, namely the fact there are no tiers or "endgame".

The only real difference between a starting minecraft character and a long-term one is that you probably have a bigger and cooler block base. You need an iron pick to get gold and diamond, but you can do that possibly within a few minutes of spawning, and you need a diamond pick to get obsidian, but that's of minimal use outside of nether gates and niche things. Beyond that, it's just a big lego kit where you have to mine the legos from the earth. But compare that with Terraria, which despite having a much deeper combat engine, also has clear "tiers" and progression, with an endgame you can "beat". Once you get the best stuff, there's no real motivation to continue, even if there's nothing really stopping you from building dumb block forts for fun like you can in minecraft.

Really, this is why I think adding more combat depth - or more dangerously, an "endgame" - to Minecraft is something of a double-edged sword. Relatedly, also why making combat more difficult and adding more random/dangerous monsters; if you can't build safely, it eventually gets to the point where the only safe strategy is to build the smallest, cheapest base you can get away with, and then... do nothing. Bad for the game in the long run, there. Something like the Adventure Update is probably a good middle ground, adding support for the more dedicated action/exploration maps people do, while still having an open-ended survival world.

Enigmatica
May 22, 2007
I started a new map with the Equivalent Exchange mod, and crossed my fingers for a good map.




Seed:4459549485191646840

-44.42, 175.42

Enigmatica fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Sep 6, 2011

Monicro
Oct 21, 2010

And you could feel his features in the air
A wide smile and perfect hair
He had complete control of the rising tides
And a medicine bag hanging at his side

In the flowing blue world of the death-dealing physician

Akito12345 posted:

So I'm releasing my new adventure map before the 1.8 update so I can get a chance to play the actual game instead of switching between an editor and the game. Give it a try and tell me how bad and broken it is!

The Tower of Xotl

Teaser trailer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tySV8EjOWz0

Mediafire Download http://www.mediafire.com/?hrzj396e1e15har

So I got to the ancient ruins (the place in the second picture), and I seem to be stuck. I wandered around the drat place for 2 ingame days trying to find the catacombs with no luck. Think you could point me in the right direction?

I'm really enjoying it so far though, especially the hidden messages behind the clay. I literally :golfclap:ed irl at the Zorak is my Fursona one.

Enigmatica posted:

I started a new map with the Equivalent Exchange mod, and crossed my fingers for a good map.



Oh come on dude, you can't post a picture of a world like that without the seed name.

Frobbe
Jan 19, 2007

Calm Down
i've received the chain world and have made my first tentative steps in it. i liked spawning in a bed hella high up! great view from here.

Jewel
May 2, 2009

Minecraft 1.8 trailer is now out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYoO9XkCCHg

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

Zorak posted:

But "death chest" and a lack of timeline removes the risk inherent in traveling away from your bed/ spawn. Exploration loses all "risk" involved when there's no intrinsic danger involved.
But it would invoke a new mechanic, that is the idea of walking into a dangerous area, getting your rear end kicked, then getting better prepared and returning to that area when you're ready to handle what it has to throw at you, and reaping the rewards (in this case, your previously-dropped loot).

It's a common trope in RPGs, and I think that would be just as much fun.

Hungry Gerbil
Jun 6, 2009

by angerbot

Tw1tchy posted:

Minecraft 1.8 trailer is now out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYoO9XkCCHg

The trailer is not very good at presenting the new features.

Jewel
May 2, 2009

Hungry Gerbil posted:

The trailer is not very good at presenting the new features.

No, not really, but I think of it as more of a teaser-trailer. Also in their "Making of" video you can see a lot more detail in the features. In the trailer though, you can see the new land generation with plains and oceans, new dungeons, endermen, new bow, experience, and creative mode!

Hungry Gerbil
Jun 6, 2009

by angerbot
Yeah, I'm also pretty excited.

Wipl there be a way to switch between creative and survival mode? Or maybe a way to import the map?

Gaspar Lewis
Nov 30, 2007

by Lowtax
No date, more time to finish my map. Best trailer I could ask for.

Jewel
May 2, 2009

Interesting! From Jeb's twitter:

Jeb's Twitter posted:

If the the food bar is empty in MC 1.8, it will slowly drop your health to 5 hearts on easy, to 0.5 hearts on normal, and kill you on hard

I was wondering how food would work. Seems pretty balanced.

moondust
Feb 3, 2011

Mo' Problems

Tw1tchy posted:

Interesting! From Jeb's twitter:


I was wondering how food would work. Seems pretty balanced.

God, spawn-animals=false servers are going to be a bitch. Hopefully bread is nice and filling. :ohdear:

Zorak posted:

it's the whole reason why the Nether has Ghasts, even. The reward is the fast travel/ rare resources, the risk is one of the most difficult to handle mobs in the game. Risk, reward. Danger from exploring from "home", associated rewards for managing to do so successfully. By approaching the situations intelligently you can mine yourself safely.

Man, you know, if the Adventure Update works as intended, and adventures are worth going on, maybe the Nether will finally be a bit better as a result. Specifically, the biome changes and their scaling. As it stands now, the Nether is really only useful for glowstone since traveling fifty chunks away from spawn won't give you anything different than traveling ten chunks away from spawn.

Cephalocidal
Dec 23, 2005

A Sassy Dog posted:

Man, you know, if the Adventure Update works as intended, and adventures are worth going on, maybe the Nether will finally be a bit better as a result. Specifically, the biome changes and their scaling. As it stands now, the Nether is really only useful for glowstone since traveling fifty chunks away from spawn won't give you anything different than traveling ten chunks away from spawn.

That really depends on the rough percentage of ocean in the world, I think - I'll use it to explore, but I'm going to feel a little let down if I've got a greater than 50% chance of winding up in the middle of the ocean if I exit the Nether without scouting first in a boat. Not that it wouldn't be great if that were the case, but the Nether would still be sort of useless.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo
In regards to item/weapon degradation, I think a simple way to repair your items would go a long way towards making the game feel a bit more involved. I think this could be combined with a simple leveling up of tools in order to give those tools a bit more value to the player. Perhaps a way to name them or customize them slightly. That way when you do die you're not just losing a pickaxe, you're losing your pickaxe. In a way it'd almost be like new items to collect, I can already imagine people grinding out tool levels so they can have a chest full of max level swords for the day that will never come.

edit: I'm thinking small gains like 5 levels with like a 5% dig/damage increase per level.

SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Sep 6, 2011

Hungry Gerbil
Jun 6, 2009

by angerbot
I want to have a 'shovel of creeper slaying +10'. :3:

Jim Jam
Oct 17, 2008

Eiba posted:

I get that Minecraft isn't trying to go full on RPG like Terraria, but I really quite like persistent character growth, and it'd be more satisfying if I could safely keep my progress with me, rather than having to stash it in a chest and being reduced to zero all the time.
I really like that underneath my armor and diamond sword I'm just a normal spongy guy, the same as when I popped into the world, and everything I do is an artificial construct used to insulate myself against the overwhelming disorder of the natural world. And I like that when I'm in my castle I'm not a lumbering man-god, bumping his XP infused biceps against the door frames, with no real reason to build a safe haven in the first place.

I think any kind of innate stat increase would blur this awesome dynamic between the natural power of the outside world, its landscape and monsters, and the false limited power that you introduce and build for yourself. Stat increases probably wouldn’t ruin the feel of game, but it would deconstruct at least partly the excitement and uniqueness of this dynamic.

Trivia
Feb 8, 2006

I'm an obtuse man,
so I'll try to be oblique.
I would actually prefer if there were stat increases. I saw a bukkit plugin that would give certain perks when you reached a determined level threshold. For instance, at level 30 mining you would gain a 10% chance to get a double pop on whatever block you mined. This would require extensive balance, but you could extend it to all sorts of different things in the game.

I would also like it if specific food had limited time stat boosts as well. Pork could, for example, offer you a 5% bonus to strength or whathaveyou. Tailoring foods for different situations gives each food a role, and makes for more interesting gameplay.

KM Scorchio
Feb 13, 2008

"If you don't find rape hilarious, you're a sensitive crybaby."
For those having trouble with/not liking losing stuff on dying, I believe Rei's Minimap V1.8 now has a death point option which makes getting back to the spot you died much easier. Just run to the point on the surface above your death point indicated by the minimap and dig down. Might be a good compromise.

Iacen
Mar 19, 2009

Si vis pacem, para bellum



You might have seen it, but the Yogscast did a teleconference at PAX, which is now on youtube. I always find such behind the scenes stuff really interesting, so I'm having fun watching them.
http://youtu.be/LXB00OkNHEQ

Edit: Oh god, the panel questions:gonk:

Iacen fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Sep 6, 2011

King Hotpants
Apr 11, 2005

Clint.
Fucking.
Eastwood.
I'm curious. The guys who are saying you shouldn't drop stuff on death, what is the incentive to walk back to your house instead of jumping off a cliff or giving a creeper a hug so you can fast-travel home?

Personally I think the fear of death adds something to this game, but it only does that if there are consequences for dying. If you respawn in your bed with all of your stuff, why is death bad?

sword_man.gif
Apr 12, 2007

Fun Shoe
Meet in the middle, drop the stuff in your inventory but not the stuff on your hotbar.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

King Hotpants posted:

Personally I think the fear of death adds something to this game, but it only does that if there are consequences for dying. If you respawn in your bed with all of your stuff, why is death bad?
That's just it. Fear of death should be there. I appreciate that. The threat of it, that danger, is very motivating.
But when that threat is actually called in, when you actually do die, the penalty is such that it's never enjoyable for me. Especially if you fall in goddamn lava.
It's been frustrating and it's made me want to stop playing for a while. But never have I died and found my experience in any way enriched because of the penalty.

You should lose something, but dumping your whole inventory on the ground is extreme.

King Hotpants posted:

I'm curious. The guys who are saying you shouldn't drop stuff on death, what is the incentive to walk back to your house instead of jumping off a cliff or giving a creeper a hug so you can fast-travel home?
You lose all your experience. Which is the plan anyway (though in addition to what we have already), so that could be a good compromise.

Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Sep 6, 2011

SheepNameKiller
Jun 19, 2004

DONT CARE BUTAN posted:

Meet in the middle, drop the stuff in your inventory but not the stuff on your hotbar.

That'd just introduce a really annoying element of juggling your inventory every time you get something worth keeping, and what does that really add to the game experience?

Polo-Rican
Jul 4, 2004

emptyquote my posts or die
Extreme option: Take a note from Demon's Souls. Every time the player dies, the "world tendency" shifts towards black. As the world tendency darkens, more enemies (especially endermen) spawn, random biomes become infested with blight, and it rains more often. To shift the world tendency back towards white, craft 4 diamonds and a redstone torch into an Enlightening Gem.

edit:
I meant this as a joke, but a world tendency mod would actually be pretty drat cool

Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Sep 6, 2011

Hungry Gerbil
Jun 6, 2009

by angerbot

Polo-Rican posted:

Extreme option: Take a note from Demon's Souls. Every time the player dies, the "world tendency" shifts towards black. As the world tendency darkens, more enemies (especially endermen) spawn, random biomes become infested with blight, and it rains more often. To shift the world tendency back towards white, craft 4 diamonds and a redstone torch into an Enlightening Gem.

This and permadeath would be neat alternative difficulty settings.

King Hotpants
Apr 11, 2005

Clint.
Fucking.
Eastwood.

Vib Rib posted:

That's just it. Fear of death should be there. I appreciate that. The threat of it, that danger, is very motivating.
But when that threat is actually called in, when you actually do die, the penalty is such that it's never enjoyable for me. Especially if you fall in goddamn lava.

But you're not supposed to enjoy dying. That's the point. It makes you not want to die.

Dropping all of your stuff into a chest before you start working near lava is part of the game, as is kicking yourself the one time that you don't do it and end up dead. That internal debate you have when your inventory is full up with good stuff and you're low on health, wondering if you should head home or keep mining? That's part of the game too. Risk versus reward. Having to run back to that spot, frantic, hoping to get there before your items despawn, adds tension. You're charging back into an area that you know to be dangerous, since it just killed you. But if you don't, you lose everything. The trick is, it's nothing you can't get back eventually--the same stuff is available pretty much everywhere. You just have to dig for it.

Unless Notch and Company do something drastic with experience, I don't see losing it being a huge penalty--I've lived this long without experience, after all. I'm not trying to say that you're doing it wrong or playing incorrectly or whatever, but I know that I would not still be playing Minecraft if Survival were just glorified Creative and there was no risk of loss.

Polo-Rican
Jul 4, 2004

emptyquote my posts or die
“You have died.
An Enderman has spawned somewhere in the world...”

NINbuntu 64
Feb 11, 2007

King Hotpants posted:

But you're not supposed to enjoy dying. That's the point. It makes you not want to die.

Dropping all of your stuff into a chest before you start working near lava is part of the game, as is kicking yourself the one time that you don't do it and end up dead. That internal debate you have when your inventory is full up with good stuff and you're low on health, wondering if you should head home or keep mining? That's part of the game too. Risk versus reward. Having to run back to that spot, frantic, hoping to get there before your items despawn, adds tension. You're charging back into an area that you know to be dangerous, since it just killed you. But if you don't, you lose everything. The trick is, it's nothing you can't get back eventually--the same stuff is available pretty much everywhere. You just have to dig for it.

Unless Notch and Company do something drastic with experience, I don't see losing it being a huge penalty--I've lived this long without experience, after all. I'm not trying to say that you're doing it wrong or playing incorrectly or whatever, but I know that I would not still be playing Minecraft if Survival were just glorified Creative and there was no risk of loss.

The Yogbox adds death chests and I find that I actually enjoy the game more thanks to it.

Not a Twat
Oct 11, 2010

Oops you almost got away without your Diddy

quote:

But you're not supposed to enjoy dying. That's the point. It makes you not want to die.
No, it makes me (and many others) not want to play.

The only way I can enjoy Minecraft is on a multiplayer server I'm an admin on, and that is only because I can cheat myself items back if lose them. Single player is fun right up until the point I die with a lot of stuff in my inventory.

At the very least, death should leave you with something - maybe only half or a third of your items are lost when you die. That way, you'll have something left to help you start over when you die, but you'll still take death seriously because there's no way of knowing just which items will be lost

Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.


King Hotpants posted:

I know that I would not still be playing Minecraft if Survival were just glorified Creative and there was no risk of loss.

This is exactly how I feel about the game. :)


Not a Twat posted:

Single player is fun right up until the point I die with a lot of stuff in my inventory.

I hope for your sake that Creative mode is also available in multiplayer, then you'll never have to worry about anything ever again.

Akito12345
Apr 29, 2010

:duane:

Monicro posted:

So I got to the ancient ruins
It's a 2x1 hole in the same area as the hidden message

Dwayne Bensey
Jan 7, 2010
This might be a long shot, but I'm looking for some pictures that were posted in the last thread; the pictures were of some guy's white, minimalist house that looked something like two cuboids stacked on top of each other, facing different directions. Did anyone save them?

King Hotpants
Apr 11, 2005

Clint.
Fucking.
Eastwood.

Not a Twat posted:

No, it makes me (and many others) not want to play.

And this is where we disagree.

The way I see it, losing your stuff on death is the only real penalty Minecraft can impose. Your character is exactly the same five seconds after spawn as he is five hours after spawn, the only difference being the items you have with you. In other games you don't lose your inventory, but in other games there are other, more efficient ways to penalize you, whether that's progress or failing a mission or whatever.

Obviously none of us know exactly how the experience system is going to work, but that might become an efficient way to penalize people for dying. For now, though, there's no other option.

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

I hope for your sake that Creative mode is also available in multiplayer, then you'll never have to worry about anything ever again.

Let's not be mean. We disagree, that's all. Also, I love your username.

Dr. VooDoo
May 4, 2006


Oh hey cool. In that trailer you can see they added gates for fences. Now those loving sheep can stop stepping all over my gardens :argh:

Dr. VooDoo fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Sep 6, 2011

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Gravitas Shortfall
Jul 17, 2007

Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.


Dr. VooDoo posted:

Oh hey cool. In that trailer you can see they added fences for gates. Now those loving sheep can stop stepping all over my gardens :argh:

Whoah, where? Now I can stop using ugly full sized wooden doors!

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