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wyoming
Jun 7, 2010

Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.

Vib Rib posted:

Most people here agree (save some who prefer a more creative-mode style means of play or don't view that kind of penalty as necessary at all), the sentiment is just that the penalty is disproportionately frustrating and makes the game less fun, not more.
We haven't been saying there needs to be no penalty.

Vocal majorities are usually minorities, especially when bitching about game mechanics.
Regardless
1. The penalty, isn't bad, unless you fall into lava, getting your items back is always easy.
2. If the penalty didn't exist, I'm completely positive a majority of you wouldn't be playing the game. It's the only risk that exists.
3. I refuse to believe that anyone has completely stopped playing because they got killed or fell into lava.

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Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

wyoming posted:

Vocal majorities are usually minorities, especially when bitching about game mechanics.
Regardless
1. The penalty, isn't bad, unless you fall into lava, getting your items back is always easy.
2. If the penalty didn't exist, I'm completely positive a majority of you wouldn't be playing the game. It's the only risk that exists.
3. I refuse to believe that anyone has completely stopped playing because they got killed or fell into lava.
1. No, it's not always easy. Especially when you're neck-deep in a cave system near bedrock far from spawn. And even if that's the case, what possible harm could it do to at the very least add a death chest system?
2. Again, most people are not arguing for a complete removal of all penalties, you don't need to disprove this.
3. I don't know about permanently but even in these threads plenty of people have talked about stepping away from the game because they fell in lava because of one errant mis-step.

IAmFree
Aug 30, 2011
Does anyone else feel that after all this 1.8 is still quite anti-climatic? I feel like the standard has been set so low over the past patches, with only trivial things being added, that now something that actually looks like a patch has come along it has ended up being incredibly overhyped.

I know that it's just a small team and there's no reason to work on it now Notch is so rich, but the development is so slow that I move on from the game only to read the 3 lines of patch notes every month with thousands of people circlejerking over how amazing it is and how Notch is their God.

Two of the big game changers; villages and experience, are only half features, there are no people in villages so we just have ghost towns and experience doesn't go towards anything, and this will remain until at least 1.9. I feel like the game would be 100x better if they just branched the team out a bit so that more could actually happen.

Shnakepup
Oct 16, 2004

Paraphrasing moments of genius

Vib Rib posted:

3. I don't know about permanently but even in these threads plenty of people have talked about stepping away from the game because they fell in lava because of one errant mis-step.

So? All gamers experience this at some point, with any game. Shouldn't be an argument against any one feature.

Senator Woofington
Aug 1, 2009

by Ozmaugh
Losing items on death is one of the best features in minecraft.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

wyoming posted:

Vocal majorities are usually minorities, especially when bitching about game mechanics.
Regardless
1. The penalty, isn't bad, unless you fall into lava, getting your items back is always easy.
2. If the penalty didn't exist, I'm completely positive a majority of you wouldn't be playing the game. It's the only risk that exists.
3. I refuse to believe that anyone has completely stopped playing because they got killed or fell into lava.

Zorak this is the kind of stuff I was talking about seeing when the idea of changing your spawn point/beds was first brought up.

"Changing this would make some aspect of the game less hard even if optional, therefore it shouldn't be in the vanilla game" Essentially.

Vib Rib posted:

1. No, it's not always easy. Especially when you're neck-deep in a cave system near bedrock far from spawn. And even if that's the case, what possible harm could it do to at the very least add a death chest system?
2. Again, most people are not arguing for a complete removal of all penalties, you don't need to disprove this.
3. I don't know about permanently but even in these threads plenty of people have talked about stepping away from the game because they fell in lava because of one errant mis-step.

Not to mention that a death chest in lava is still hard to get at. Or that a death chest could simply be another difficulty option. I'm personally in favor of deathchest = dungeon gets built around death chest if space is available and contains a mob spawner you now have to deal with.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

IAmFree posted:

Does anyone else feel that after all this 1.8 is still quite anti-climatic?
I'm in it more for the improved biomes, fortresses, abandoned mines, and generally more diverse worlds more than anything. I don't care about Endermen or NPC villages so much as I just care about having more reason to travel and explore overland.
Though, didn't he say experience was only useless in the PAX demo? I don't remember if he said it would remain so in the actual 1.8 patch.

Shnakepup posted:

So? All gamers experience this at some point, with any game. Shouldn't be an argument against any one feature.
I don't at all agree that disproportionately punitive and overly frustrating losses are a staple of all games.

trandorian posted:

a death chest could simply be another difficulty option.
Exactly. That's the whole point of an option like this: It's optional.
People who still want a five-minute timer to find all their scattered (and potentially burnt-up) loot are more than welcome to do so. I'd rather at least have a death chest, or just rely on something less frustrating, like the XP loss that's already planned.
And the way I play won't have to in any way make the experience less fun for people like Wyoming who want the full penalty.

Vib Rib fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Sep 7, 2011

glug
Mar 12, 2004

JON JONES APOLOGIST #1

Vib Rib posted:

3. I don't know about permanently but even in these threads plenty of people have talked about stepping away from the game because they fell in lava because of one errant mis-step.

I have a feeling that if they took the time to come post about it in a minecraft discussion thread, they'll be playing the game again in the near future. Fortunately, I think minecraft is a good game for playing, leaving, and coming back to play.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.
I'm all for harsh death penalties in situations where death was preventable with reasonable foresight, or where earning back what you lost is interesting or rewarding. Minecraft kind of walks the line as far as the first goes and is terrible at the second.

Read
Dec 21, 2010

Your personal preferences towards Minecraft don't need to be added to the game, especially when they would be going against one of the core mechanics of it.

Shnakepup
Oct 16, 2004

Paraphrasing moments of genius

Vib Rib posted:

I don't at all agree that disproportionately punitive and overly frustrating losses are a staple of all games.

I meant in a more general sense of "sometimes a game frustrates you to the point where you have to take a break". Literally any game can cause this in some players at some point.

Plus, I don't agree that dropping your items on death is "disproportionately punitive and overly frustrating". First off, you have five minutes to go back and collect your stuff. Unless you were thousands of blocks away from spawn/bed, it shouldn't take you very long to get back to where you were. I mean, honestly, if your items despawned instantly then I'd disagree with you; that'd be a bit unfair. Otherwise, I think it's perfectly reasonable. Any dangers inherent ("waa, I was deep in a cavern and can't find where I was", "waa, I fell in lava", "waa, I was ten thousand blocks away and was carrying fourty diamonds") are the player's fault for not being very prepared, not the game really being "unfair". At least, that's what I personally think.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

Read posted:

Your personal preferences towards Minecraft don't need to be added to the game, especially when they would be going against one of the core mechanics of it.
People have been arguing as to what does and does not go against the "core mechanics" of what Minecraft is really all about since day one.
When monsters were added, a lot of people had a big problem with it. When crafting was added, the community lit up. "Crafting? What is this, WoW?" Every single feature that's been added or changed has provoked this kind of response, almost literally without exception.

I don't think lightening up the death penalties, optionally, will ruin the game for anyone. Especially not for something as minor as just removing the five-minute timer.
If, as everyone says, it's so easy to get back to it in five minutes, then putting them in a chest wouldn't really change much, would it?

Shnakepup posted:

Otherwise, I think it's perfectly reasonable. Any dangers inherent ("waa, I was deep in a cavern and can't find where I was"...) are the player's fault for not being very prepared, not the game really being "unfair". At least, that's what I personally think.
Yeah, how often in Minecraft do people get lost underground?

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Read posted:

Your personal preferences towards Minecraft don't need to be added to the game, especially when they would be going against one of the core mechanics of it.

This is exactly what people said about changing your spawn point/beds.

wyoming
Jun 7, 2010

Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.

Vib Rib posted:

1. No, it's not always easy. Especially when you're neck-deep in a cave system near bedrock far from spawn. And even if that's the case, what possible harm could it do to at the very least add a death chest system?
2. Again, most people are not arguing for a complete removal of all penalties, you don't need to disprove this.
3. I don't know about permanently but even in these threads plenty of people have talked about stepping away from the game because they fell in lava because of one errant mis-step.

Well, if you're adding a deathchest, you are completely removing the penalty. So, you're contradicting yourself.

glug posted:

I have a feeling that if they took the time to come post about it in a minecraft discussion thread, they'll be playing the game again in the near future. Fortunately, I think minecraft is a good game for playing, leaving, and coming back to play.

Pretty much, coming and posting stories of lost diamonds is a bonding experience, and part of the fun.
Nobody would post "Whelp, a creeper killed me while I was in my mine, good thing all my diamonds are in my deathchest, jeez what a swell game!"

I'm not arguing the core mechanics. I'm just saying, just because the game can be frustrating doesn't mean it's bad.
By saying penalties should be removed, you're arguing against your best interest, because it's what makes the game fun.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

wyoming posted:

Well, if you're adding a deathchest, you are completely removing the penalty. So, you're contradicting yourself.
It's still a penalty. It's just not so unforgiving. You still have to fight your way back to that point and recover your stuff.

Look, either it's easy to get your stuff back every time within the 5 minute period, or it's not. If it is, adding a chest (optionally!) won't change much and there's no reason to keep fighting it. If it's not, I'd argue it's unnecessarily punitive.
You can't have it both ways.

wyoming posted:

coming and posting stories of lost diamonds is a bonding experience, and part of the fun...
By saying penalties should be removed, you're arguing against your best interest, because it's what makes the game fun.
Clearly we have very different views of what makes this game fun, because losing a full spelunker's haul has never made me enjoy the game any more, even in retrospect.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles
If adding a death chest system completely removes the penalty for death, and if the penalty for death is what makes Minecraft fun, then literally nobody would use the death chest mod, because if they did they'd no longer have fun playing the game.

So with that in mind, why do people use the death chest mod?

Could it be because losing all your stuff when you die isn't what makes the game fun for those people?

Pucklynn
Sep 8, 2010

chop chop chop
Am I alone in wishing that for a little while Mojang would stop coming out with new features? I really don't feel like villages add a whole lot that was desperately missing (we've got mods for almost everything now) and I'm sure as gently caress modding out Endermen as soon as possible. gently caress that poo poo.

I would really love it if for a while they could just go through and fix all the bugs, optimize the code, merge SMP and SSP, and basically make the core game itself work really well, then start icing the cake a little. It feels silly and unnecessary to keep throwing half-formed ideas at the pile that only sort of work and get abandoned in favor of a new shiny thing when the foundation underneath it is still so shaky.

Of course, I'm certainly not against new features ever, but I would prefer a stabler base game to come out first. If feature X comes out buggy and is patched to work with the current build, but then they go back and optimize the base code and improve the game, then feature X may break all over again and need to be patched, costing even more time.

I just feel so frustrated every time I see some new silly thing that I'm not interested in show up while my computer is still having trouble handling the game itself.

TL;DR waaah fix the bugs i don't want new features waaah

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007

Your death chest needs to be guarded by your vengeful ghost.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

Pucklynn posted:

Am I alone in wishing that for a little while Mojang would stop coming out with new features? I really don't feel like villages add a whole lot that was desperately missing (we've got mods for almost everything now) and I'm sure as gently caress modding out Endermen as soon as possible.
...
TL;DR waaah fix the bugs i don't want new features waaah
To be fair, we don't really know what villages add yet. There's talk of generated NPC quests and even if they were as basic as "Bring me 10 of X material" or "Kill 10 of Y monster" I think it could be a neat little addition.

I agree that I'm more interested in improvements and enrichments on the core game than I am about new features, which is why I think the improved world/terrain generation and bolstered combat look way more interesting than Endermen or new types of glass panes.

wyoming
Jun 7, 2010

Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.

Vib Rib posted:

Clearly we have very different views of what makes this game fun, because losing a full spelunker's haul has never made me enjoy the game any more, even in retrospect.

It's not losing your items, it's the risk. The risk doesn't exist without the reality is all I'm saying.

Pucklynn posted:

Am I alone in wishing that for a little while Mojang would stop coming out with new features?

Yes.

pseudorandom name posted:

Your death chest needs to be guarded by your vengeful ghost.

This would actually be really neat.
I think I remember someone an old thread talked about having a zombie version of yourself with all your items.
I'd fully support a miniboss to get your items back. :allears:

wyoming fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Sep 7, 2011

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

wyoming posted:

Well, if you're adding a deathchest, you are completely removing the penalty. So, you're contradicting yourself.

If you're good at the game then retrieving your lost stuff is a cakewalk anyway, therefore there's already no penalty.

All the deathchest does is remove the "items despawn after 5 minutes of the chunk they're in being loaded" timer. Except if you died in lava, but then again a death chest under lava blocks is going to be hard to use too.

Personally, I find it penalty enough to have to walk all the way from my spawn base to wherever I died, which in most cases is a decent way away.

pseudorandom name posted:

Your death chest needs to be guarded by your vengeful ghost.

This? This I like. Or at least a zombie with your skin.

rinski
Sep 12, 2007

Vib Rib posted:

Clearly we have very different views of what makes this game fun, because losing a full spelunker's haul has never made me enjoy the game any more, even in retrospect.

People play this game in dramatically different ways, to the point where I think it's really detrimental to keep certain mechanics bundled bundled into presets (easy, medium, and hard difficulties) with no way to customize them individually.

For example, playing D2 on Hardcore mode for too long has given me severe self-defeating personality disorder, so I actually like the threat of losing all your stuff. Without the sense of urgency it creates, I just wouldn't enjoy the game as much. Before I've established a fairly decent shelter for myself, I just restart when I die.

I don't understand why there aren't a set of "Advanced Options" that just let you customize this stuff—especially the new mechanics in the Adventure update. Minecraft is a really open-ended game; players are going to have very different definitions of what's fun and what's not. Why not let the players choose the type of game they want to play?

Fishylungs
Jan 12, 2008

Pucklynn posted:

Am I alone in wishing that for a little while Mojang would stop coming out with new features? I really don't feel like villages add a whole lot that was desperately missing (we've got mods for almost everything now) and I'm sure as gently caress modding out Endermen as soon as possible. gently caress that poo poo.

Not me. But that's because I think the current village mod sucks butt.

Vib Rib
Jul 23, 2007

God damn this shit is
fuckin' re-dic-a-liss

🍖🍖😛🍖🍖

wyoming posted:

It's not losing your items, it's the risk. The risk doesn't exist without the reality is all I'm saying.
I agree that there needs to be some sort of penalty for a risk to exist. I just think there are plenty of penalties the game could employ that would still have a risk and result in less frustration when actually encountered. A death chest seems like a pretty good compromise, especially if it was optional.

rinski posted:

People play this game in dramatically different ways, to the point where I think it's really detrimental to keep certain mechanics bundled bundled into presets (easy, medium, and hard difficulties) with no way to customize them individually.
Exactly so. Options for death penalties could just be a start, and you could go on to customize things like monster spawns, or even something as simple as a toggle for the hunger bar. Plenty of features in this game would be more widely accepted if they were optional, and being able to mix and match would be perfect because people play and enjoy it for many different reasons.

Vargs
Mar 27, 2010

How often are you guys really falling into lava? The shift key prevents you from doing so. I've played this game for hundreds of hours and I honestly do not think it's happened to me a single time. And that's certainly not because I'm just some super minecraft god who's block-placing twitch skills put you all to shame.

Minecraft is a very simple game, and I just find it hard to believe that anybody who's played enough to know how the game works is ever dying to anything other than long falls while building something tall, other players, or SMP lag.

Vargs fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Sep 7, 2011

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Vargs posted:

How often are you guys really falling into lava? The shift key prevents you from doing so. I've played this game for hundreds of hours and I honestly do not think it's happened to me a single time. And that's certainly not because I'm just some super minecraft god who's block-placing twitch skills put you all to shame.

There's tons of ways to die in Minecraft.

Pucklynn
Sep 8, 2010

chop chop chop

Vib Rib posted:

I agree that I'm more interested in improvements and enrichments on the core game than I am about new features, which is why I think the improved world/terrain generation and bolstered combat look way more interesting than Endermen or new types of glass panes.

The improved combat and world generation do look really exciting. That's the kind of updates I'd like to see more of.

I do hope that later on there will be more settings for when you create a world-- things like turning off the villages, enabling death chests (if that's your thing) and basically tweaking settings before you start. That might be a good compromise, especially if you couldn't change your decision after the game started.

Dr. Chainsaws PhD
May 21, 2011

Vargs posted:

How often are you guys really falling into lava? The shift key prevents you from doing so. I've played this game for hundreds of hours and I honestly do not think it's happened to me a single time. And that's certainly not because I'm just some super minecraft god who's block-placing twitch skills put you all to shame.

Minecraft is a very simple game to play, and I just find it hard to believe that anybody who's played enough to know how the game works is ever dying to anything other than long falls while building something tall, other players, or SMP lag.

I was putting cobble over a giant lava lake and my shift key pooped itself and I fell. The "crouch to not fall" really depends on how good your computer/keyboard is.

Lag spike? Brief input lag? Hope you like lava, bitch!

ThndrShk2k
Nov 3, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo
Bread Liar

pseudorandom name posted:

Your death chest needs to be guarded by your vengeful ghost.

Which doesn't spawn on Peaceful mode, therefor :D. I think this is the best choice. Risk, Reward, Rrraaaggghhhhhh.

Just as long as it doesn't die to lava. Perhaps elemental ghost based on death! (Lightning ghost == run)

the heebie-gbs
Apr 23, 2007

♫ twerrrmmmmm ♫
       /
:sax:
Sometimes I throw all my stuff in the lava just to feel alive

Red Minjo
Oct 20, 2010

Out of the houses, which is the most blue?

The answer might not be be obvious at first.

Gravy Boat 2k

pseudorandom name posted:

Your death chest needs to be guarded by your vengeful ghost.

And then you get killed by your ghost, and now you have to deal with two death chests and two ghosts. You could make your own little hostile ghost town, full of treasure. It could make for a very fun adventure map, I think.

GenderSelectScreen
Mar 7, 2010

I DON'T KNOW EITHER DON'T ASK ME
College Slice
I would be for a ghost that spawned upon your demise. And when it died, it spawned a chest that would have all your old items. That way, you have a challenge and you're able to keep all your items.

EDIT: And if you died to (or on your way to) the ghost the previous ghost would despwan. That way you could only recover one chest at a time.

GenderSelectScreen fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 7, 2011

Rupert Buttermilk
Apr 15, 2007

🚣RowboatMan: ❄️Freezing time🕰️ is an old P.I. 🥧trick...

Can the enderman see you through glass? Or even through tiles fences (that make a grid-thing as a wall)?

:ohdear:

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

by Smythe

Red Minjo posted:

And then you get killed by your ghost, and now you have to deal with two death chests and two ghosts. You could make your own little hostile ghost town, full of treasure. It could make for a very fun adventure map, I think.

I'd love to see a chain world full of these avenging ghosts.

Boinks
Nov 24, 2003



I dug down 3 blocks and over one block to get some iron ore once only to find out that block of iron was holding back a torrent of lava. Also one time a Creeper blew up and knocked me into a lava lake.

But my worst item-losing death was when I decided to walk into a cactus to kill myself and respawn with full health. All of my items flung out towards the cactus of course. :ughh:

Scaly Haylie
Dec 25, 2004

Boinks posted:

I dug down 3 blocks and over one block to get some iron ore once only to find out that block of iron was holding back a torrent of lava. Also one time a Creeper blew up and knocked me into a lava lake.

But my worst item-losing death was when I decided to walk into a cactus to kill myself and respawn with full health. All of my items flung out towards the cactus of course. :ughh:

You know you can just harvest cacti with your bare hands, right?

Shnakepup
Oct 16, 2004

Paraphrasing moments of genius

Boinks posted:

But my worst item-losing death was when I decided to walk into a cactus to kill myself and respawn with full health. All of my items flung out towards the cactus of course. :ughh:

Why would you kill yourself while you still have items? Anytime I'm thinking about doing this (i.e. killing myself to respawn with full health) I make sure to dump all my items in a chest.

ThndrShk2k
Nov 3, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo
Bread Liar

Shnakepup posted:

Why would you kill yourself while you still have items? Anytime I'm thinking about doing this (i.e. killing myself to respawn with full health) I make sure to dump all my items in a chest.

He's lazy enough to kill himself for health, obviously he's too lazy to put stuff in a chest.

Or craft a giant sandtower to jump off from, to die safely, away from things that destroy items.

pseudorandom name
May 6, 2007

When you die and you have a death chest in your inventory, you drop a death chest containing your full inventory. A death chest is black in color and has skulls painted on the outside. Death chests are fireproof, and are spawned floating above lava or water if you burned to death in lava or drowned in water. They're spawned approximately where you died otherwise.
Death chests have enough slots to hold a player's full inventory plus any equipped armor.

When you get near a death chest, it spawns a single wight. When the wight is killed, the death chest unlocks and will no longer spawn wights. A locked death chest can't be opened, so you have to kill the wight before you can retrieve your inventory.

The wight is equipped with the best armor and sword that was in your inventory when you died. If you had a bow and arrows, the wight will use those arrows until it runs out. The wight stays near to the death chest. If the wight despawns due to the player moving out of range, the next time a player moves into the range of the death chest the wight is spawned again at full health.

While the wight is wearing your armor and equipped with your sword and bow, these items are not dropped by the wight when it dies. Instead, they can be found in the death chest.

Once a death chest is completely emptied, it vanishes from the world in a puff of smoke.

The recipe for a death chest is eight blocks of obsidian in the usual chest arrangement with 5 bones in the center.

Go to work, modders.

pseudorandom name fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Sep 7, 2011

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NObodyNOWHERE
Apr 24, 2007

Now we are all sons of bitches.
Hell Gem
I tend to come down on the side of the need for risk outweighing the need for frustration free play. Worrying about losing your junk is a pretty big part of the SSP experience and I think the game would suffer if it was diminished much.

That said, I could get behind a less powerful version of the death-chest, particularly if it had some use aside from just making the game less cruel. A backpack would come closest to fitting the bill in my mind. It could have a very limited capacity, maybe 4 slots or so tops, but they are in addition to what you get in your regular inventory. On death, the backpack drops wherever you were killed with its contents intact and never despawns. Any items in your regular inventory would be scattered like usual. It would be equipped like a piece of clothing/armor so you could only ever use one at a time and it would have its own damage meter so that it could only be dropped and picked up a couple of times before it would fall apart.

So, you can keep a couple of important tools you don't want to lose in there and some valuable materials you might find, but you can still get stung if you aren't careful about managing your belongings. This way you also have to earn the luxury of having a few safe inventory items by gathering materials and crafting the pack yourself (I would make its cost reasonably steep), rather than just making death a minor inconvenience.

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