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Yall need to be better readers, so you can step up and read better books like the postmodern masterpiece Malazan, and not miss out on glorious subtextual innuendos that GRRm only touches upon in this series. Next Quantify! is going to tell me that Dolorous Edd is not a main character. Bullshit.
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Sep 27, 2011 05:46
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Quantify! posted:No, they're not. No Quantify!, what we want is for characters to be relevant to each other. Who the gently caress gave you the impression they want "the ending"? I don't know about you (I am beginning to, however) but I prefer my books to not be made up of disjointed, unrelated, ever irrelevant in regards to each other chapters/characters.
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Sep 27, 2011 05:52
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Quantify! posted:No, they're not. I disagree. I'm thinking that, if this series has any main villains at all, Roose Bolton would be a pretty strong contender. His house outright flays people, he did kill Robb Stark (not to mention he sacked Winterfell), he has proven time and time again that he certainly does not give a gently caress about what happens in his wake. He really only cares about his own personal needs and wants. He might be responsible for destroying Stannis' army, and if he dies, he might become some dumb zombie leader of the White Walkers when they march past Winterfell. I could be wrong- he could get his rear end crushed at the beginning of the next book, but he certainly has a shot at being a pretty hated, major character. Sandor and Gregor I can agree with you on, they can fit the role of secondary characters.
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Sep 27, 2011 08:47
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bigmcgaffney posted:Yall need to be better readers, so you can step up and read better books like the postmodern masterpiece Malazan, and not miss out on glorious subtextual innuendos that GRRm only touches upon in this series. "Postmodern" and "Malazan" should never be put in the same sentence. I laughed so hard when I saw that over in the Malazan thread.
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Sep 27, 2011 08:55
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Fog Tripper posted:No Quantify!, what we want is for characters to be relevant to each other. Who the gently caress gave you the impression they want "the ending"? I don't know about you (I am beginning to, however) but I prefer my books to not be made up of disjointed, unrelated, ever irrelevant in regards to each other chapters/characters. Tolkien, grandfather of fantasy lit, did it. Frodo and Sam do not interact at all with the rest of the cast after splitting up until almost the end of the story. Merry and Pippin split up and have their separate adventures for a long time as well. In a way, most of the story is actually irrelevant to the quest to destroy the Ring, except in an academic sense. Sauron was distracted by the actions of Aragorn and company, but it's not set in stone that Frodo wouldn't have been able to destroy the Ring without that distraction. Tolkien also had his fair share of "fake deaths". Frodo "died", only for it to be revealed that the mithril coat saved his life. Gandalf came back. There's even a symbolic death when Saruman is cast down, only to reinvent himself as Sharkey. Really all the stuff people complain about in GRRM's work is not only typical of the genre, it's typical of the form he's working in. If you dismiss the books as "not literature" and think that you don't need to apply critical reading skills to the story, you're arguing out of ignorance. Stories are pleasing to us for very basic reasons. If you understand what a story was meant to do, you can appreciate it more, regardless of whether the story is Ulysses or Harry Potter. Ross posted:No actually what I want is for Arya to do something interesting. What are your criteria for a "major" character? Arya murdered someone of no consequence to the larger story, but it had plenty of consequence FOR HER. The theme of Arya's story is how she becomes her own person while being isolated from everything she's ever known. If you put Arya back into the main story right now, you would completely ruin any character development she's gone through. If people want to dismiss me as some sort of snob, that's fine. I enjoyed the book and know why I enjoyed the book, and I only defend it in here as a sort of intellectual exercise. It helps me write better when I argue this stuff. I know nobody's going to actually change their minds on anything.
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Sep 27, 2011 13:18
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Ok, I just finished Dance, and WHAT THE gently caress? Are we assuming that Melisande is going to resurrect Jon Snow or what?
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Sep 27, 2011 13:18
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Both Arya and Bran's plots could have been summed up in a training montage had the five year gap gone ahead. It's probably why they didn't feature much, because they weren't the reason for needing Feast/Dance in the first place. Quite the opposite, I guess.
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Sep 27, 2011 13:54
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Junkenstein posted:Both Arya and Bran's plots could have been summed up in a training montage had the five year gap gone ahead. It's probably why they didn't feature much, because they weren't the reason for needing Feast/Dance in the first place. Quite the opposite, I guess. Arya could have her whole goddamn life play out and never meet anyone from the rest of the story again. I think it would be interesting to actually do that - there's no guarantees that Martin will have her kill anyone relevant to the story! I don't think Martin will go this route, because she remembers who she is, but it would be an interesting take on things that I would enjoy reading. Not everyone has to take an important place on stage. Frodo went to Elf Heaven, but Sam just stayed home and tended his garden. Arya doesn't have to have some epically major role in the final conflict. She could just find her place, and perhaps a bit of happiness.
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Sep 27, 2011 14:02
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Fog Tripper posted:No Quantify!, what we want is for characters to be relevant to each other. Who the gently caress gave you the impression they want "the ending"? I don't know about you (I am beginning to, however) but I prefer my books to not be made up of disjointed, unrelated, ever irrelevant in regards to each other chapters/characters. Just because Quantify! isn't wearing his floppy ears today now
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Sep 27, 2011 14:03
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Mr.Brinks posted:Just because Quantify! isn't wearing his floppy ears today now "Aye, and there is much and more we must needs discuss after your queenly duties be done," Ser Barristan Selmy said. "Oh, Mother of Dragons, the POV characters do not interact with each other!" the people wailed. "You don't get how stories work. Get outta here." Daenerys replied. "Perhaps she is less a queen than I thought," Selmy mused.
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Sep 27, 2011 14:37
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Quantify! posted:You just don't "get" literature. Clearly after 43 years and a full bookcase I need to go back and take a critical reading of literature course in order to "get" the last two pieces of poo poo that gurm shat out, which you are greedily gobbling up.
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Sep 27, 2011 15:00
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The last two books sucked, this one more than the last one, and the character arcs ended in lame plot twists, last second cliffhangers, and making GBS threads on a dragon. Martin wrote himself into half a dozen corners and cranked out another book that doesn't resolve anything so his editors stop nagging him to put out another book because the television series just started. He can't think of how to resolve his plot because he can't go back and change material in already published books, so he's gotten frustrated and given up. There will never be another book.
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Sep 27, 2011 15:07
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Fog Tripper posted:Clearly after 43 years and a full bookcase I need to go back and take a critical reading of literature course in order to "get" the last two pieces of poo poo that gurm shat out, which you are greedily gobbling up. It is possible to spend 43 years filling bookcases with absolute crap. I've seen it done/
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Sep 27, 2011 15:11
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Blind Melon posted:It is possible to spend 43 years filling bookcases with absolute crap. I've seen it done/ Xanth books are not crap!
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Sep 27, 2011 15:13
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Fog Tripper posted:a full bookcase One bookcase? Pffft. P.S. I'm halfway through Gardens of the Moon when does it become the amazing series I've heard so much about?
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Sep 27, 2011 15:30
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Ecco the Dolphin posted:No, the dragon-warging thing is just fan-wankery and is twice as stupid as the "Jon-wargs-into-Ghost-and-back" resurrection theory. People seem to want to look at warging like it's a super power in a video game and not a plot element in a novel. It seemed like there was a lot of set up of warging almost specifically to explain Jon not dying. We learn the "rules" of warging in that POV - i think it had way more to do with Jon than Bran. You could have told Brans story without any of that warging info... but you can't tell Jon's mystery ressurection without it. Also Ghosts relationship to melis was stressed.. and I recall reading some sort of "brothers for life" lines that seemed to emphasize this death loophole. It might be stupid (personally I think it is) but it felt like something the grrmster was setting up. poo poo I dont know, maybe he dies but stays the Lord Commander... didn't we have an undead one back in the history of things? I kind of like Jon as an undead commander ala Lord Soth from Dragonlance. I can see him chillin on the wall fighting off Others for a century or three. PS: Hey Ghost, bang up job keeping Jon safe. Seriously, where the gently caress were you? PPS: XANTH!
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Sep 27, 2011 16:05
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Ambiguatron posted:The last two books sucked, this one more than the last one, and the character arcs ended in lame plot twists, last second cliffhangers, and making GBS threads on a dragon. Martin wrote himself into half a dozen corners and cranked out another book that doesn't resolve anything so his editors stop nagging him to put out another book because the television series just started. He can't think of how to resolve his plot because he can't go back and change material in already published books, so he's gotten frustrated and given up. It's like inhaling ozone through a gas mask. You're not wrong either, even if I did almost enjoy the last two books on the sheer momentum of the prior lore.
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Sep 27, 2011 16:56
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kcroy posted:PS: Hey Ghost, bang up job keeping Jon safe. Seriously, where the gently caress were you? Pretty sure John had him locked up in his room so he didn't go after that warthog or whatever the wildling warg brought with him.
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Sep 27, 2011 17:25
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Fog Tripper posted:Clearly after 43 years and a full bookcase I need to go back and take a critical reading of literature course in order to "get" the last two pieces of poo poo that gurm shat out, which you are greedily gobbling up. I was with you until you said that Feast and Dance are poo poo, which they are not.
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Sep 27, 2011 18:27
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Can't I just think they're pretty good books from an entertainment perspective? Or does that make me a 'bad reader'? Fake edit: Your reading skill has increased to 65!
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Sep 27, 2011 18:52
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Jakabite posted:Can't I just think they're pretty good books from an entertainment perspective? Or does that make me a 'bad reader'? Jakabite please do us a favor and don't post again until it's at least up to 90. I agree entirely about their entertainment value. Both have their slow/uninteresting moments like most long fantasy novels but AFFC and ADWD are definitely not "bad books" in general. I think they just get a bad rap because they're being compared to the first three, which ranged from "really good" to "awesome". I'll reserve condemnation for the state of the series until the next book.
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Sep 27, 2011 19:11
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Maytag posted:One bookcase? Pffft. Books 2 and, even more so, 3.
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Sep 27, 2011 20:21
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Habibi posted:Books 2 and, even more so, 3. Agreed, 2 and 3 are probably the best, I like 5 too. Just remember that if you want to get the most out of the series you need to think deep about the meaning of 'obscure lore' and its interplay between reader expectations and authorial intent, as well as the cultural implications of the series on a broad level oh gently caress it
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Sep 27, 2011 21:49
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Habibi posted:Books 2 and, even more so, 3. It should have ended at 3, in my opinion. From 4 on, Malazan becomes overwhelmed by its own stupidly large cast, DBZ superpowers, and the most convoluted timeline ever.
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Sep 27, 2011 22:04
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Azure_Horizon posted:It should have ended at 3, in my opinion. From 4 on, Malazan becomes overwhelmed by its own stupidly large cast, DBZ superpowers, and the most convoluted timeline ever. bigmcgaffney posted:Agreed, 2 and 3 are probably the best, I like 5 too. Just remember that if you want to get the most out of the series you need to think deep about the meaning of 'obscure lore' and its interplay between reader expectations and authorial intent, as well as the cultural implications of the series on a broad level oh gently caress it
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Sep 27, 2011 22:18
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I think the only books I enjoyed to a degree after 3 were 4, 7, and 9. The Crippled God was such a mess from a narrative perspective. If that's postmodern fantasy, I won't read anything else that is deemed as such.
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Sep 27, 2011 22:19
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Jakabite posted:Can't I just think they're pretty good books from an entertainment perspective? Or does that make me a 'bad reader'? It happens that ASOIAF is entertaining, accessible to the public, and an example of solid storytelling. I don't know why people think that any analysis of a work comes from some sort of "academic" standpoint. I hate academics and how they analyze things, but the layperson's method is not any better. To be fair critical analysis is a skill most people have no reason to practice so there's no reason for the average person to be good at it. We don't teach things like rhetoric and logic anymore. There's no excuse for the academics though. They should be learning this stuff, instead they learn to weigh the author as more important than anything in the actual story. Fog Tripper posted:Clearly after 43 years and a full bookcase I need to go back and take a critical reading of literature course in order to "get" the last two pieces of poo poo that gurm shat out, which you are greedily gobbling up. I had dumb opinions on stories for a long time, but when I wised up the stories became so much more rewarding because I can appreciate them on multiple levels. It's not just "Arya did some stuff," it's "Arya did some stuff, and changed as a person from who she was before," and when you get really into it it's "Arya did some stuff, changed as a person, and this reflects a general theme in the work of shifting identities and the search for self." The conflict between various factions is just a device to draw you into these more satisfying inner conflicts. The best storytelling uses both the outside event and the individual reaction to it to create stories that explain the world. ASOIAF does this well, so I count it in the "good stories" category.
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Sep 27, 2011 22:29
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Azure_Horizon posted:I think the only books I enjoyed to a degree after 3 were 4, 7, and 9. The Crippled God was such a mess from a narrative perspective. If that's postmodern fantasy, I won't read anything else that is deemed as such. I make no claims about post-modernism.  All I know is that, while he has some technical shortcomings when it comes to the writing itself, and while there is an overabundance of characters at times (many of whom can run together), Erikson weaves a hell of a story - it just takes some effort on the reader's end for everything to connect (which I understand is not everyone's bag). From a narrative standpoint, though, I had far less trouble with TCG than Bonehunters.Also: No love for Midnight Tides aka the Misadventures of Bugg and Tehol??
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Sep 27, 2011 23:12
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Ross posted:Jakabite please do us a favor and don't post again until it's at least up to 90. Christ man, I don't have the time to become a Journeyman Reader, I'm putting all my skill points into Problem Solving. In all seriousness though, I pretty much agree with you. The next book'll be a maker or a breaker but I still think GRRM's doing fine.
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Sep 27, 2011 23:17
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Can someone help me figure out what skills I need to min/max in order to spot all the gay characters?
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Sep 27, 2011 23:21
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xamphear posted:Can someone help me figure out what skills I need to min/max in order to spot all the gay characters? Gaydar to spot those in your line of sight. Gaywareness to detect hints of gayness from all around.
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Sep 27, 2011 23:24
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xamphear posted:Can someone help me figure out what skills I need to min/max in order to spot all the gay characters? Actual reading ability.
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Sep 27, 2011 23:40
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Oh yeah, I had an actual question. How exactly does Arya kill that one guy with the special Assassin coin? I couldn't follow her plan at all for some reason, and I kept re-reading bits of it and being more and more confused, and finally I said gently caress it and kept on reading. That's what happens when you read on the beach.
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Sep 28, 2011 01:53
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Vengarr posted:Oh yeah, I had an actual question. How exactly does Arya kill that one guy with the special Assassin coin? I couldn't follow her plan at all for some reason, and I kept re-reading bits of it and being more and more confused, and finally I said gently caress it and kept on reading. That's what happens when you read on the beach. I believe this is how Pate the Pig Boy is killed as well, but it's more explicit here. Still easy to miss though.
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Sep 28, 2011 02:00
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More specifically, she cut that guys purse and got caught intentionally, scattering his coins near him and slipping a poisoned one in with the others.
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Sep 28, 2011 02:17
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I don't know, I read all that as she slipped some coin associated with the Faceless Men into his coin-purse and when he saw it he had a heart attack from sheer terror or something.Quantify! posted:"I must needs don my floppy ears to listen to the pleas of my people." "I am but a young girl", Dany mused aloud, "but it seems to me that the
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Sep 28, 2011 03:20
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Quantify! posted:No, you can appreciate things purely on an entertainment level. I appreciate Lady Gaga's music because it's entertaining. But if I were to sit down and analyze the songs seriously, I'd say that they're pretty bad. What you can't do is say "Lady Gaga's music is awful" without anything to qualify that opinion. That's just lazy. So I can keep reading my lovely fantasy books? 
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Sep 28, 2011 03:23
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Quantify! posted:It happens that ASOIAF is entertaining, accessible to the public, and an example of solid storytelling. I don't know why people think that any analysis of a work comes from some sort of "academic" standpoint. I hate academics and how they analyze things, but the layperson's method is not any better. To be fair critical analysis is a skill most people have no reason to practice so there's no reason for the average person to be good at it. We don't teach things like rhetoric and logic anymore. There's no excuse for the academics though. They should be learning this stuff, instead they learn to weigh the author as more important than anything in the actual story. See I would contend that GRRM is a fine writer but a poor storyteller because of his inability to nail down a consistent storyline. Or even storylines. Multi-narrator stories can be fine, but he's juggling so many unnecessary protagonists with so many mostly plot-irrelevant bits that the story, on the whole, is muddied and aimless. There is some great symbolism and background-fleshing material buried in a multi-chapter Brienne walkabout, but it's not good storytelling since we as readers know how pointless and how far from the "action" the whole thing is. These last couple of interstitial books have been a lot of treading water storywise with a bare few bits of import shoved in. Like Quentyn's dumb trip of pointless pathos just tying up a tiny loose end for some minor players and doing some inexplicable things just so maybe the dragons can have something happen. It wasn't worth the pagecount, however impeccably written. It's like a movie made up almost solely of deleted scenes the director liked with no attention being paid to either pacing or the viewers. Better story focus and tighter editing are reasons I've enjoyed the HBO series a little better than the first book, even though the written version is more complete and "deep". We can assume that every player in the game of thrones is doing what they can, but it's not necessary to put the authorial camera on every corner of the empire at every moment for the Song of Ice and Fire to be a believable tale. For examples Abercrombie's First Law books and Rothfuss's Marty-Stu Chronicles may not have better writing but they are telling better stories, or at least they're better at telling stories.
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Sep 28, 2011 03:41
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Mad Hamish posted:I don't know, I read all that as she slipped some coin associated with the Faceless Men into his coin-purse and when he saw it he had a heart attack from sheer terror or something. Doesn't she carefully remove a coin from the poison pool at some point? I can't remember specifically and I don't have my copy handy right now.
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Sep 28, 2011 03:42
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They specifically say the dude bites all his coins.
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Sep 28, 2011 03:48
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