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The Lone Wanderer died after inhaling the drug plant in Point Outlook, and Mothership Zeta was just part of the last hallucinations he experienced before dying.
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Oct 1, 2011 06:43
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Star Guarded posted:I like that the Legion in NV is just obviously evil. It would have been so stupid if they'd tried to portray slavers in a "morally grey" light. Yeah, they're more efficient than the NCR due to their brutality, but they don't try to pretend they're not evil. I wouldn't call them evil. I'd call them Lawful Evil. Yes, they're evil, but it's in order to construct a strictly-defined military-based society with a strong economy. A bit different from flat-out evil. Evil for the sake of stability. Edit: It's actually a helluva lot better that they have some purpose to being 'evil'. Looking back on Fallout 3, was there any reason the Enclave was just ridiculously supervillan-y? CommanderCoffee fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 07:08
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boneration posted:Yeah I was unclear; when I said accidentally I meant straight up on purpose. I am not worried about how I handled the quest, I just wanna know if my rep will ever rise above Mixed if I keep doing NCR work or if it gets locked at a certain level if you are too much of a dickhead. According to the wiki its very possible. The thing is, negative alignment and positive alignment aren't tracked on the same scale, that is, getting an alignment boost doesn't cancel out an alignment penalty. That said, you can still get to a point where the NCR looks upon you in mostly favorable way. So keep plugging away at that NCR work, I guess.
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Oct 1, 2011 07:39
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CommanderCoffee posted:I wouldn't call them evil. I'd call them Lawful Evil. Yes, they're evil, but it's in order to construct a strictly-defined military-based society with a strong economy. A bit different from flat-out evil. Evil for the sake of stability.
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Oct 1, 2011 07:45
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I wouldn't call the Legion evil. Caesar is a very, very smart man that decided that the current faction's ways of doing things weren't really productive to the rebuilding of society. As well-intentioned as the Followers are, they very rarely actually get anything done. The Legion may crack a few eggs, but if you want to make an omelette that's what you need to do. Take that one dude in Helios One. He knows there's a huge secret about it, and he has the means and the ability to find out what it is, but he doesn't do anything because he's just a passive observer. e: As an aside, I love how having high luck completely breaks the blackjack games. Queen and a 10? Double down on that motherfucker 
Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 07:54 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 07:52
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Ddraig posted:I wouldn't call the Legion evil. Caesar is a very, very smart man that decided that the current faction's ways of doing things weren't really productive to the rebuilding of society. As well-intentioned as the Followers are, they very rarely actually get anything done. The Legion may crack a few eggs, but if you want to make an omelette that's what you need to do. yeah the legion isn't so bad if you're okay with rape camps and slavery, tbh 
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Oct 1, 2011 07:54
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Ddraig posted:I wouldn't call the Legion evil. Caesar is a very, very smart man that decided that the current faction's ways of doing things weren't really productive to the rebuilding of society. As well-intentioned as the Followers are, they very rarely actually get anything done. The Legion may crack a few eggs, but if you want to make an omelette that's what you need to do.
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Oct 1, 2011 07:56
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Lets gently caress Bro posted:Well, they had the exact same motivation in Fallout 2, to erase all traces of mutation from humanity by killing everyone in the wasteland and repopulating the world with unmutated humans. They're basically just eugenics loving assholes. They explained that in 2 though, right? Because I felt through Fallout 3 that the Enclave was bad because everybody said it was, not because they actually did anything bad (up until they kill Liam Neeson).
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Oct 1, 2011 07:58
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Pharmaskittle posted:yeah the legion isn't so bad if you're okay with rape camps and slavery, tbh So basically how America used to be??
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Oct 1, 2011 07:58
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They should contact the unions to get enough workforce to rebuild their apocalyptic hellhole into something a bit better, obviously. e: And really, the portion of the Legion we see in New Vegas is literally the tip of the spear. They're the invasion force, so they're obviously going to be as brutal as they need to be to get the point across that you either join Caesar or you become another Nipton. There's very little information about their actual territory and how they govern it. I think the most anyone really knows is that it's far more secure and stable than most other places. Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 07:59
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Cwapface posted:I think if we're going to define evil meaningfully, we have to include an organisation that enslaves people, excludes women from their ranks for no good reason, and literally massacres a town for being a little bit lewd, sons and daughters murdered in front of father and mothers, with the only reprieve from crucifixion or immolation being a lottery. To be fair, the mayor was double-crossing factions left and right. It wasn't just because prostitution = bad, and the point behind massacring the town was that it was overly horrific. It was intended to send a strong message to the NCR of "we're loving coming for you, get ready." Wolfsheim fucked around with this message at 08:02 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 08:00
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Ddraig posted:Queen and a 10? Double down on that motherfucker Luck must be such a bitch to balance. Of course someone who pumps their special up to the maximum js going to want to see super-human returns on gambling, it's just what you'd expect. But that breaks the game's entire economy, and there's not a lot you can do about it. Sure the casinos have limits, but if you set those too low it becomes pointless and you penalize people who gamble legitimately. I do love most of what new Vegas introduced. Survival isn't the best option, but it has a ton of cool uniques related to it. It's far more useful than outdoorsman from the first two. Same with the consolidation of gun types, it makes far more sense now. Speaking of guns and luck, am I the only one who'd like to see item degradation scrapped and replaced with a more detailed critical hit/failure system? That's something I sincerely miss from the first game. At least Raul doesn't pull a Sulik and SMG me in the back.
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Oct 1, 2011 08:17
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What I liked doing in Nipton was after talking to that smug rear end in a top hat Vulpes Inculta, heading down the road a bit and laying down a shitload of frag mines. Then I'd go a little off the road and activate my Stealth Boy. Vulpes will then stride down the street smug in his belief that word is going to spread of the Legion's might, step onto a shitload of mines and be crippled to hell. Now you CAN kill him at this point, and then deal with all his troops who will set their dogs on you and bypass your stealthboy, and it is possible. But I preferred to just keep back - let that motherfucker LIMP crippled out of Nipton, and deal with the fact that he isn't going to get everything his own way and that there are consequences for Nipton, motherfucker 
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Oct 1, 2011 08:57
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Wolfsheim posted:To be fair, the mayor was double-crossing factions left and right. It wasn't just because prostitution = bad, and the point behind massacring the town was that it was overly horrific. It was intended to send a strong message to the NCR of "we're loving coming for you, get ready." Seriously, stop trying to justify the Legion's actions. I have a megalomaniacal psychopathic character who was basically Caesar's pit-bull until it came time to play her own cards and take over the strip and turn it into a giant lab for human experimentation with the Protectrons as her loyal servants. But I still recognise that, if we can even talk about evil as a thing (which I don't think we can in seriousness, but let's just say), Caesar's Legion is it. Smudgie Buggler fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 09:03
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Cwapface posted:Okay, so inflicting retribution (however righteous) on a leader by massacring the people he leads isn't evil? Brutally murdering people to send a message to a government (however corrupt) isn't evil? I'm with Ddraig on this one. The entirety of the Legion forces you interact with in the game are the guys who have been sitting on the other side of the river for five years since the first battle for Hoover Dam. They've been essentially training under the most brutal conditions and likely under intense psychological conditioning since then for the sole purpose of loving up the NCR. They're bound to be a little...unhinged. For all we know Ceasar's territory in Arizona really is a glorious new Rome. Sure Rome had slaves and some awfully misogynistic ideas and some brutal laws, but they were also the most successful, cultured and advanced civilization in the region, at that time period, by a large margin. Whos to say that the Legion wouldn't be the same thing given some time? Of course, out of the entirety of the Legion you interact with, only Vulpes and Ceasar and maybe Lucius seem to have the intelligence to be anything but thugs. Of the other Legion leaders we see, Aurelius of Pheonix and Dead Sea just comes off as soldiers really gung-ho about killing people, and Lanius is a Hulk sized Hannibal Lector. Maybe Ceasar is just really, really confident in his ability to survive his cancer until he wipes out NCR, or he's already set up a successor(s) wherever the Legion's "capital" is. Edit: I keep rereading what i typed, convinced that somehow I've forgotten my Fallout cannon and I'm totally off base on my assumption. Assumethisisreal fucked around with this message at 09:52 on Oct 1, 2011 |
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Oct 1, 2011 09:43
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Cwapface posted:Seriously, stop trying to justify the Legion's actions. I have a megalomaniacal psychopathic character who was basically Caesar's pit-bull until it came time to play her own cards and take over the strip and turn it into a giant lab for human experimentation with the Protectrons as her loyal servants. But I still recognise that, if we can even talk about evil as a thing (which I don't think we can in seriousness, but let's just say), Caesar's Legion is it. Fiends are evil, Caesar is a deluded tyrant.
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Oct 1, 2011 10:06
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Assumethisisreal posted:I'm with Ddraig on this one. The entirety of the Legion forces you interact with in the game are the guys who have been sitting on the other side of the river for five years since the first battle for Hoover Dam. They've been essentially training under the most brutal conditions and likely under intense psychological conditioning since then for the sole purpose of loving up the NCR. They're bound to be a little...unhinged. I'm reading it, and it makes a helluva lot more sense than what's on the Wikia. So far, everything on the Wikia is based largely on the Legion in the Mojave and heresy about what parts of it are like deeper in Arizona. It'd make Caesar's Legion a lot less of the 'obviously evil' faction if it were a high-culture society in places like Flagstaff and Two Sun.
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Oct 1, 2011 10:08
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Cowcaster posted:The capital wasteland brotherhood is poo poo, their power armor is poo poo, their motivations are poo poo, and nobody likes them not even other brotherhood chapters and I hope they die. They have liberty prime. The single most awesome thing in fo3.
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Oct 1, 2011 10:22
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As it turns out my favorite thing about GRA is .50 Explosive rounds. I took my modded ARM and 1200 Caps worth of them (a whopping 48 rounds!!!!) to that Deathclaw nest with the T-51b and Remnants Armor, and with one Sneak Crit I killed 1 Deathclaw, 2 Young Deathclaws and badly wounded a Deathclaw Mother because they were all bunched together.
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Oct 1, 2011 10:59
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Pharmaskittle posted:yeah the legion isn't so bad if you're okay with rape camps and slavery, tbh Considering it's the post-apocalyptic future, I don't one can really apply modern standards to how things are done, with regards to slavery, sexism and rape camps. It literally is every man for himself and legion.
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Oct 1, 2011 12:46
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Assumethisisreal posted:I'm with Ddraig on this one. The entirety of the Legion forces you interact with in the game are the guys who have been sitting on the other side of the river for five years since the first battle for Hoover Dam. They've been essentially training under the most brutal conditions and likely under intense psychological conditioning since then for the sole purpose of loving up the NCR. They're bound to be a little...unhinged. turboraton posted:Fiends are evil, Caesar is a deluded tyrant.
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Oct 1, 2011 13:25
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In Nipton keep in mind that about 5 Legion Soldiers walked in and executed 30+ townspeople and Powder Gangers. They only succeeded because the townspeople sat there, watching their friends/family/neighbours getting killed and waited for somebody to rescue them. Vulpes straight up says that he and his mean would have had no chance against all of them if they had resisted.
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Oct 1, 2011 13:45
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Yet a number of them did resist, making his comment about leaving if they'd fought back utter horseshit. 
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Oct 1, 2011 13:51
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I posted this in the modding thread but googling for a solution leads me to believe it's NOT mod related? Basically, I'm crashing as soon as the load that starts Dead Money occurs right after being gassed. I cannot for the life of me find a solution. I tried turning off every mod, re downloading dead money, verifying cache integrity, etc.
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Oct 1, 2011 13:52
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poptart_fairy posted:Yet a number of them did resist, making his comment about leaving if they'd fought back utter horseshit. I don't even remember what he said specifically, but I'm guessing he meant all of them.
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Oct 1, 2011 13:59
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CommanderCoffee posted:I'm reading it, and it makes a helluva lot more sense than what's on the Wikia. So far, everything on the Wikia is based largely on the Legion in the Mojave and heresy about what parts of it are like deeper in Arizona. It'd make Caesar's Legion a lot less of the 'obviously evil' faction if it were a high-culture society in places like Flagstaff and Two Sun. You hear from traders about how in legion lands there is basically no crime and they're kind of safe, idyllic places. I doubt the main war camp of a huge roman-style army is gonna be the most representative place of an entire nation.
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Oct 1, 2011 14:19
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Anyone who thinks the Legion destroyed Nipton because of prostitutes was not paying attention at all. It was about them being duplicitous and Cato's views on morality. And it was to send a message. Rope kid's said a few times that what we see of the Legion is not exactly representative of the whole society, and it's a flaw in the game that we never really get to see the lands they rule, only a deployed army.
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Oct 1, 2011 14:19
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Mordaedil posted:Considering it's the post-apocalyptic future, I don't one can really apply modern standards to how things are done, with regards to slavery, sexism and rape camps. It literally is every man for himself and legion. As said many times before, if they left out the rapey misogynistic side of the Legion, the game would have a lot more grey area and would make the endgame decision a bit more complex. If their mentality was "The wasteland is a harsh place, so every man, woman, and child, needs to be a warrior" then you'd have a pretty compelling argument to side with them. As it is the only reason to side with the Legion is to be a completionist or because you're goony as hell. Besides, using the physically weaker sex as pack mules is just bad planning.
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Oct 1, 2011 14:37
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Just went through Vault 11, very interesting. Made me seriously think about what would happen if a group of people were put in that situation. I seriously think that the solution would be to pick someone at random like the new Overseer decided to do. Although, you would get the same problem, poo poo would hit the fan because it looks like they are just trying to save their own skin and remain in power. I doubt very much a normal group of people would stand by each other and decide not to pick someone to sacrifice, especially when they believe that they will all die because of it.
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Oct 1, 2011 14:48
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Cwapface posted:No, fiends are drug-addled hobos. I don't have much but pity for fiends. Maybe Motor Runner is worthy of vilification, but most fiends are just ostracized, uneducated and hosed up on nasty chems. Caesar and the officers in his Legion have purposeful, organised, systematic cruelty and oppression. And we don't know that Caesar is deluded. He might just be playing a character that he thinks works for his ends. But he is definitely a merciless, sadistic megalomaniac. If you can't call that evil then I don't know what you can. They're unproductive hateful menaces. Look at what they did to the populace of Vault 3, or Cook-Cook, who's raped at least a couple of in game characters. If that doesn't make them evil I don't know what does. At least Caesar's legion is bringing some level of order. Fiends do nothing positive at all and should all be wiped out.
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Oct 1, 2011 14:49
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Xik posted:
But a normal group of people, who were in the kind of situation where they had to consistently choose one of their friends, family and neighbors to be killed, would almost certainly become the kind of people who would choose death over committing evil acts. After the first? No, they wouldn't make that decision. After the fifth, the tenth, the twentieth, after living the kind of suspicious, fearful, calculating life that would be? I absolutely believe "normal" people would get to that point.
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Oct 1, 2011 15:18
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Only the robots are innocent and worthy of the Couriers sympathy, all others must be shotgun punched, and maybe eaten.
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Oct 1, 2011 15:19
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poptart_fairy posted:Yet a number of them did resist, making his comment about leaving if they'd fought back utter horseshit. Yeah, if you actually look through the houses and stuff you realize that lots of people were resisting. There's blood and bodies and one or two dead legionnaires. The whole "Legion must be brutal and pitiless in order to survive in the wasteland" philosophy also rings kind of hollow when they're up against numerous other viable organizations that, while having their own flaws (except for the Glorious Wingnut's Invincible Juche Securitron Army), get roughly the same results without all the rapey torture slavery.
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Oct 1, 2011 15:46
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Wingnut Ninja posted:The whole "Legion must be brutal and pitiless in order to survive in the wasteland" philosophy also rings kind of hollow when they're up against numerous other viable organizations that, while having their own flaws (except for the Glorious Wingnut's Invincible Juche Securitron Army), get roughly the same results without all the rapey torture slavery. exactly, this is post-post-apocalypse, not ten minutes after the bombs fell where everyone goes all Mad Max or some poo poo. Their "well at least they make everything safer" poo poo just seemed obsolete compared to what else was going on in the Mojave.
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Oct 1, 2011 15:49
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Snark posted:Guys, let's not judge the rapists so harshly. There's been a war. I only mean to imply that we are judging them based on our own societal creations as it stands. Such as things in past, we frown upon today, but back in those days, it was just how life was. Things changed, to suit a different life. Things will change later as well, and you might find that they frown upon society as it is today. Very much likely that they will, in fact. Snark posted:As said many times before, if they left out the rapey misogynistic side of the Legion, the game would have a lot more grey area and would make the endgame decision a bit more complex. If their mentality was "The wasteland is a harsh place, so every man, woman, and child, needs to be a warrior" then you'd have a pretty compelling argument to side with them. As it is the only reason to side with the Legion is to be a completionist or because you're goony as hell. Pretty much, yeah.
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Oct 1, 2011 16:03
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Mordaedil posted:I only mean to imply that we are judging them based on our own societal creations as it stands. Such as things in past, we frown upon today, but back in those days, it was just how life was. Things changed, to suit a different life. Things will change later as well, and you might find that they frown upon society as it is today. I would like to think that even if the earth is bombed to poo poo that we can still agree that rape camps are not something to be blase about.
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Oct 1, 2011 16:20
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The Legion are all gay so obviously they are the evil faction.
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Oct 1, 2011 16:26
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Pwnstar posted:The Legion are all gay so obviously they are the evil faction. That appears to be the opinion of Cass. I was a bit put off by her homophobic remarks about the Legion. Not that the Legion isn't evil, but of all the things to make fun of them for, their skirts and rumors that they have gay sex seems a bit odd, especially for a bisexual character. In fact, is Cass the only person in the game who says anything disparaging about gays? I know Major Knight says the NCR doesn't approve of homosexuality, but I don't think here's any NCR characters who actually give voice to that.
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Oct 1, 2011 16:54
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:That appears to be the opinion of Cass. I was a bit put off by her homophobic remarks about the Legion. Not that the Legion isn't evil, but of all the things to make fun of them for, their skirts and rumors that they have gay sex seems a bit odd, especially for a bisexual character. In fact, is Cass the only person in the game who says anything disparaging about gays? I know Major Knight says the NCR doesn't approve of homosexuality, but I don't think here's any NCR characters who actually give voice to that. Isn't Cass bi?
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Oct 1, 2011 17:28
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Nycticeius posted:Isn't Cass bi? Great job reading the post you quoted.
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Oct 1, 2011 17:30
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